Always Remember-You Cannot Win an Argument with Crazy

[GlennT]

Do not waste your precious time arguing or pleading with crazy. I have never won one yet, in the end. They will always win in the end. All the personality disorders, all the way through to the organic brain diseases will always win and have you beat in an argument. The BPD"S have spent their entire lives honing this skill. Radical acceptance and silence is all we have and who wants or needs that beat-down on their intelligence and self-esteem? Crazy always wins in the end, especially the high functioning BPD"S, Antisocials, and the Narcissists. They always win with the last word, action, and lie, to beat you down and destroy you, in their sick minds. Plus, they are the kings and queens of denial. Just leave them or let them leave, so that we can continue on to live better lives. That is how we can win!

[zondolit]

GlennT,

I have experienced this a lot. Particularly now as I go through a long, difficult divorce, it is clear how my stbx (uBPD/NPD) sets things up to win and will devote huge amounts of effort to "winning" (instead of, say, looking for a job).

The issue for me is that I fall into the trip of believing things are win/lose. I buy into this false narrative, which is likely a form of splitting. Close relationships, and particularly those involving children, are not competitions but wow does my stbx try to convince me otherwise and how many times have I fallen for this? What it requires of me is to transcend the win/loose mentality completely. This is hard.

When I think on my own, I think: a divorce is not a competition! Not to deny all the awful emotions and changes involved, at the end of the day divorce is a problem-solving problem: how do we divide up time with the children and finances? And I like problem-solving! But wow is it easy to get dragged into thinking it is a competition.

[GlennT]

Oh no..do not get dragged down that rabbit hole by the personality disordered and the BPD my friend. Crazy thinks everyone else is wrong. Everyone else is stupid. They are always justified.

[kells76]

A book that gets talked about here occasionally is "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" by George K. Simon. I believe that one (though he does have another book, titled "Character Disturbance", that may be what I'm thinking of) describes how manipulative people construct scenarios that are best for them -- the ideal scenario is win-lose, where they win and you lose. Next best is lose-lose, where even though they lose, at least you aren't winning. Third best is win-win, where at least they win, even though you do too, and unthinkable is lose-win -- how could it even exist that they lose and you win.

This is so, so different from "generally normal" thinking, where we try to find the "win win" as much as we can. It can be difficult to remind ourselves not just that "win-lose" is often their preference, but so is "lose-lose".

It takes learning and practicing some very non-intuitive approaches to be able to work effectively with pwPDs. One key thing to remember is that problem-solving and fairness are not the same priorities to them as they are to you.

Some members might be familiar with the old story of King Solomon and the two women who came to see him, both claiming that a baby was theirs, and not the other woman's. One woman said "it's my baby, but she wants it too, so how about we cut it in half to be fair?" The other woman said "If that's the solution, then just give her the baby so at least he'll live". Guess who the real mom was 

[jaded7]

A book that gets talked about here occasionally is "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" by George K. Simon. I believe that one (though he does have another book, titled "Character Disturbance", that may be what I'm thinking of) describes how manipulative people construct scenarios that are best for them -- the ideal scenario is win-lose, where they win and you lose. Next best is lose-lose, where even though they lose, at least you aren't winning. Third best is win-win, where at least they win, even though you do too, and unthinkable is lose-win -- how could it even exist that they lose and you win.

This is so, so different from "generally normal" thinking, where we try to find the "win win" as much as we can. It can be difficult to remind ourselves not just that "win-lose" is often their preference, but so is "lose-lose".

It takes learning and practicing some very non-intuitive approaches to be able to work effectively with pwPDs. One key thing to remember is that problem-solving and fairness are not the same priorities to them as they are to you.

Some members might be familiar with the old story of King Solomon and the two women who came to see him, both claiming that a baby was theirs, and not the other woman's. One woman said "it's my baby, but she wants it too, so how about we cut it in half to be fair?" The other woman said "If that's the solution, then just give her the baby so at least he'll live". Guess who the real mom was 

Kells, your posts are always so thoughtful. I continue to read and think about them.

I'll just say, very early in my relationship I said to her "honey, when we have a disagreement you seem to need to win, and I want you to know that is not my goal. I just want to heard, you don't need to agree with me."

Later, in a peaceful moment she said "my family has always said I argue like a lawyer".

Both of these are LONG before I did the bpd partner procession, starting with Google search -my partner yells at me, why does my girlfriend yell at me...etc, and down the rabbit hole of YouTube videos and blog posts and support groups and... Which is how I found this place.

[GlennT]

Thank-You Kells; I will look for this book today.

[kells76]

Thank-You Kells; I will look for this book today.

You're welcome! Glad to share the recommendation. Amazon has it, and I've gotten it through our local public library.

[Augustine]

Do not waste your precious time arguing or pleading with crazy. I have never won one yet, in the end. They will always win in the end. All the personality disorders, all the way through to the organic brain diseases will always win and have you beat in an argument. The BPD"S have spent their entire lives honing this skill. Radical acceptance and silence is all we have and who wants or needs that beat-down on their intelligence and self-esteem? Crazy always wins in the end, especially the high functioning BPD"S, Antisocials, and the Narcissists. They always win with the last word, action, and lie, to beat you down and destroy you, in their sick minds. Plus, they are the kings and queens of denial. Just leave them or let them leave, so that we can continue on to live better lives. That is how we can win!

Given their precarious state, I’m wondering if it truly matters what we say to them when they’re dysregulated, as anything stated is inevitably reconfigured once it passes through the BPD cognitive strainer. 

You could do a soft shoe dance in front of them singing, “Taking a Chance on Love” and they’ll see a swastika-wearing stormtrooper goose-stepping across the room singing “Deutchland Uber Alles!” instead.