Alienation from My Kids?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi All,

What say you?  Is this a case of alienation from my kids or me being on-nerve from all the dysregulation, unkindness, and manipulation from my uBPDw.

I'll try to sketch it out neutrally.

Today my uBPDw told me, as I was going out the door with the kids, that:

- She had signed up for special (reserved for high potential kids) office hours this weekend with the head coach of my kids' team

- The coaches' sign up email was sent back in June (I do not receive these because A. the sports portal can only send to one family address and B. uBPDw doesn't forward me the team emails)

- This is the first time I've heard of this

- uBPDw has the financial resources to pay for all of this very expensive sport so over the years has tried (and I'd say successfully) to make it her domain only. Example of maternal/parental gatekeeping but with teens. The kids have even said a couple of years back "this is Mom's investment, we want her to take us." [Note the adult language].

- uBPDw and I do scheduling at least once a week, but this summer with so many summer activities with teens, we've even had to create a spreadsheet and had even more coordination

- My kids are blooming and we're starting to realize there might be significant potential yet I'm adamant that we do not put pressure on them and uBPDw knows it is important for me to be involved. Also, it is just plain fun

- We've been talking about this coming August weekend for a long time for two reasons

A. old close friend is coming into town for an oncology 2nd opinion [you can see my other posts on this] and uBPDw didn't want them staying at our home so we've had extensive coordinate re: hotel, etc. and

B. As many of you have learned when planning with a BPD, a technique is to start months ahead with expectations, soothing, validation especially when you have a visitor, doing something with extended family, or are planning a trip. It is exhausting but I've found that it works. Especially if it happens on email where they can read their own dramatic declarations and over-the-top requirements. So this weekend has been hashed out for months.

What say you? Is her excluding me from this coach's meeting alienation?

Or is this a dynamic that would happen in a non-BPD household?

[LifewithEase]

Hi All,

What say you?  Is this a case of alienation from my kids or me being on-nerve from all the dysregulation, unkindness, and manipulation from my uBPDw.

I'll try to sketch it out neutrally.

Today my uBPDw told me, as I was going out the door with the kids, that:

- She had signed up for special (reserved for high potential kids) office hours this weekend with the head coach of my kids' team

- The coaches' sign up email was sent back in June (I do not receive these because A. the sports portal can only send to one family address and B. uBPDw doesn't forward me the team emails)

- This is the first time I've heard of this

- uBPDw has the financial resources to pay for all of this very expensive sport so over the years has tried (and I'd say successfully) to make it her domain only. Example of maternal/parental gatekeeping but with teens. The kids have even said a couple of years back "this is Mom's investment, we want her to take us." [Note the adult language].

- uBPDw and I do scheduling at least once a week, but this summer with so many summer activities with teens, we've even had to create a spreadsheet and had even more coordination

- My kids are blooming and we're starting to realize there might be significant potential yet I'm adamant that we do not put pressure on them and uBPDw knows it is important for me to be involved. Also, it is just plain fun

- We've been talking about this coming August weekend for a long time for two reasons

A. old close friend is coming into town for an oncology 2nd opinion [you can see my other posts on this] and uBPDw didn't want them staying at our home so we've had extensive coordinate re: hotel, etc. and

B. As many of you have learned when planning with a BPD, a technique is to start months ahead with expectations, soothing, validation especially when you have a visitor, doing something with extended family, or are planning a trip. It is exhausting but I've found that it works. Especially if it happens on email where they can read their own dramatic declarations and over-the-top requirements. So this weekend has been hashed out for months.

What say you? Is her excluding me from this coach's meeting alienation?

Or is this a dynamic that would happen in a non-BPD household?

[livednlearned]

I find it helpful to think of BPD parenting as pathogenic parenting per Dr. Craig Childress.

Parental alienation is language that third-party professionals typically associate with legal action and family law court.

Pathogenic parenting is language associated with psychiatry. From what I understand, the symptoms of pathogenic parenting can be detected in a child's behavior without necessarily diagnosing a parent.

My take is that pathogenic parenting is the natural manifestation of BPD traits when someone with BPD has kids. BPD and pathogenic parenting are two sides of the same coin.

The question is the degree to which those qualities are harming the kids, the emotional resilience of each individual kid, plus ways gender plays a role. Meaning there is a higher risk of alienation when the BPD parent and kid is the same gender, altho this can be negated by temperamental differences and other factors. And of course, our ability to use communication/relationship skills to offset pathogenic parentings matters too (not to mention legal action if it gets to that level).

It is not typical of healthy families to eliminate a parent from participating in events. Even unhealthy families can encourage participation.

n/BPDx had tremendous social anxiety when participating in my son's elementary and middle school events. Even at the height of our custody battle, at a time when the judge was ordering two bailiffs in the court room during our appearances, I could set aside my concerns when n/BPDx showed up in a public space to watch then S12 perform in the school play. I remember saying to S12, "You and I spend a lot of time together and we'll be heading back to our place after the play with lots of time to talk, so if you want to say hi to dad after the play, go for it, ok?" And he did. It made him so happy to see his dad show up and pay attention to him.

Whereas many parents with BPD traits tend to do the opposite. A "normal-range" parent (as Childress describes the targeted parent) will be presented as unfit or incompetent or clueless or straight up dangerous despite evidence to the contrary.

What did you say to your kids when they said it was "mom's investment"?

[LifewithEase]

Thanks for the reply livednlearned,

How do I respond to any of the this type of language? It is hard. This specifically, I said something like: your mother is generous and she loves to see how you grow. Just remember to have fun. If it isn't fun, if it isn't rewarding for you than the pressure is not yours.

To the wider group:

I guess a more direct question is if I should send her an email stating the facts so I have a written record of it. I know she'll respond meanly and it could trigger her yet it is a milestone moment. Apart from a few other times, most of the  pathogenic parenting is subtle and more like a thousand cuts that big swings.

[livednlearned]

I said something like: your mother is generous and she loves to see how you grow. Just remember to have fun. If it isn't fun, if it isn't rewarding for you than the pressure is not yours.

My stepdaughter's therapist would say to her: "you have a right to have a loving relationship with both parents." This is an exact phrase SD26 would say to her uBPD mom when mom was disparaging H.

Do you think things are dire enough for you to be that direct? "Your mother is generous" seems fine but it's about mom. "She loves to see how you grow" is about mom (and might obscure what's really driving things for mom). You're two comments in and it's about your perspective on mom. Third comment in might make light of what's going on -- have fun (even when your mom is insidiously ripping apart the kids' ability to feel connected to both parents). Four comments in makes it seem like it's easy for them to say no (without giving any pointers). Is it accurate to say that the pressure actually is theirs?

"How do you feel about that?" may not make a difference in the moment but a thousand questions like this builds a validating environment because it focuses on what's really happening here which is a dumbing down of how the kids feel. They may not genuinely know what they feel because the force of mom's goals are directives eclipse everything else, including their own emotions.

I guess a more direct question is if I should send her an email stating the facts so I have a written record of it. I know she'll respond meanly and it could trigger her yet it is a milestone moment. Apart from a few other times, most of the  pathogenic parenting is subtle and more like a thousand cuts that big swings.

What would you send her?

[ForeverDad]

"Your mother is generous" seems fine but it's about mom. "She loves to see how you grow" is about mom (and might obscure what's really driving things for mom). You're two comments in and it's about your perspective on mom.

"How do you feel about that?" may not make a difference in the moment but a thousand questions like this builds a validating environment because it focuses on what's really happening here which is a dumbing down of how the kids feel. They may not genuinely know what they feel because the force of mom's goals are directives eclipse everything else, including their own emotions.

The children probably have had years of being invalidated by their mother, her perceptions and her version of reality.

LnL made a good observation, spend less effort on validating mother and more attention on teaching and helping the children to have a better balance of reality.

The skills on proper validation described here (see our Tools and Skills workshops board, 1.11-13) and echoed by our members are so insightful.

Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating

[EyesUp]

>> What say you? Is her excluding me from this coach's meeting alienation?


I cannot comment on the language or context (legal, social, psychological), but I will say that you are wise to give attention to this dynamic - and to consider how to manage and mitigate it.

Document moments like this, consistently and concisely. Keep a running log.

"August 13, W was opposed to my joining event ABC. Kids commented XYZ. I responded 123"  - etc.

Another book worth reading and re-reading re: PA is "Divorce Poison" by Richard Warshak.  Even if you're not actively thinking in terms of divorce, the book outlines the various pathologies and behaviors surrounding children in a high conflict relationship, and specifically focuses on PA. It's positioned to people going through divorce, but I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to any conflicted parenting situation.

Sample size of one, but I can tell you that my uBPDxw engaged in behaviors similar to what you describe - withholding information in order to gain control, exclusion, and manipulation. 

I eventually came to see that part of the reason she does this is because she is terribly insecure and deathly afraid of losing the kids' favor. So she competes in way that attempts to win favor by undermining me - sometimes in subtle ways. Other times, not so subtle. It's great that you're attuned to this dynamic sooner rather than later.

[LifewithEase]

I got Warshak's book and started reading.

Great suggestion. Very helpful. 

I've also been reading Mogel's Blessing of a B minus and it has transformed my engagement with my kids. It actually reinforces what I'm already doing but gives me more strength and confidence when dealing with my uBPDw.

A side note is that it helps call out some of the ways I could do a better job and also highlights the areas I'm specifically having in co-parenting with a uBPDw.

I highly recommend it.

[Notwendy]

I've also been reading Mogel's Blessing of a B minus and it has transformed my engagement with my kids. It actually reinforces what I'm already doing but gives me more strength and confidence when dealing with my uBPDw.

I highly recommend it.

Me too- for all families- it's not specific to BPD. I read it when my kids were younger - thought it was great.