Do pwbpd hate ultimatums?.

[nesta]

Hi again,

Well, we had another what I call a blow out two days ago. Things have been going “good” since my last post here - until last week. My cousins are coming for a visit from afar (2 female and 1 male). We planned to get an Airbnb just the four of us and catch up. Of course, my wife has been ruminating all week on this as she has convinced herself that I/we are going to do something terrible in her delusional thinking. It is yet another scenario in her head where I am going to cheat on her.

I asked her what was going on the other day as she was being weird again for the 3-4 days leading up to this - she has this look about her when she’s anxious or thinking about something that is bothering her and it’s as if I’m with someone competing different. She acts different for days at a time and then say she’s fine and denies anything is up when asked. Then she disclosed that this trip was what was bothering her.

I ended up discussing this with her and it devolved into a big discussion/arguments about our relationship, yet again. We literally ended up talking about and almost separating that morning. It was super upsetting and emotional for both of us. When we are good, we’re good. And then this happens and we’re instantaneously not good at all.

I asked her repeatedly to go to counselling with me. She says she isn’t ready and when I asked her why not and what does she have to lose when we are literally talking about separation. She couldn’t tell me the reasons why - just that she’s not ready. I get the sense it’s because it would force her to confront what is going on and may lead to a diagnosis so she’s terrified. I am getting to the point where I am fed up living these highs and lows all the time and being accused of things I haven’t done, nor will ever do. It’s exhausting. I ended up telling her I can’t keep doing this cycle of arguing over her repeated accusations or worrying about me cheating all the time. It’s unfounded and baseless. It was super emotional. I find myself in those moments really strong initially and almost hoping she will leave me and then I can start moving on. But I really do love her despite this aspect of her. Then I feel panicked at the reality of what we are contemplating and try to smooth things over then calm things down. We ended up resolving the conflict and came back to what I now refer to baseline with respect to her emotions.

What’s interesting is that I’ve noticed a period of highs after these intensely emotional situations. She is super sexual and affectionate for a few days after this and I feel as though I have my old wife back again. It’s almost as if she thrives on this. It’s super odd. But I have learned to know that it is temporary and only until the next chaotic outburst.

Another thing she said during our argument is that I gave her an ultimatum (counselling) and she hates ultimatums and feels it’s unfair for me to do this in a relationship. She “agreed” to go to counselling a few times during our heated argument (just like last time but haven’t gone yet) when I told her I can’t keep living like this. She said fine, I’ll go but I don’t want to and that she’d only be going for me/the wrong reasons and then a few minutes later she was literally contemplating leaving me. We literally almost broke up over her being unwilling to go to a counsellor to try and save our marriage but she also acknowledged that her behaviour is not ok and she can see how much it is bothering me. And she tells me that I don’t deserve this and to be happy and that I deserve that with someone else. Why would someone rather end a relationship and all the chaos that would cause in our lives and those that are affected rather than at least go to one counselling session? It just seems so crazy to me. To acknowledge you have a problem and admit it but then not want to do anything about it despite being faced with the risk of losing everything you have (except her kids but hers and my life would be seriously impacted by divorce, obviously).

It was a super intense morning and I feel ashamed that I let it get there again. I have been so good in not wearing her emotions since I became aware of what’s going on with her (bpd traits or undiagnosed bpd, finding out about this website and the books I’ve been reading) but it’s so hard to always take the high road and just plug along while your wife is in one of her weird moods and I know something is wrong but she doesn’t want to talk about it because she/we know it will end up in an argument. We both know that close to my planned trip, during and afterwards, this is going to recur as she will be living in her head and catastrophizing the entire time and I know I will be stuck in this cycle of defending myself against false accusations and the awkwardness between us but then I’m not supposed to call it out/discuss it. So frustrating and sad because all we are doing is just hanging out together and not doing anything wrong or weird.

Thanks for reading and allowing me to vent. It’s so hard being with someone that acts like this all the time and I’m sure people in my life get tired of me talking about it.

[ForeverDad]

'Ultimatums' seems to be a trigger word in her view.  Would she allow using another word that doesn't have her sensitized?  Problem is, in time she would come to hate any alternative words.

[Rev]

Hi again,

Well, we had another what I call a blow out two days ago. Things have been going “good” since my last post here - until last week. My cousins are coming for a visit from afar (2 female and 1 male). We planned to get an Airbnb just the four of us and catch up. Of course, my wife has been ruminating all week on this as she has convinced herself that I/we are going to do something terrible in her delusional thinking. It is yet another scenario in her head where I am going to cheat on her.

I asked her what was going on the other day as she was being weird again for the 3-4 days leading up to this - she has this look about her when she’s anxious or thinking about something that is bothering her and it’s as if I’m with someone competing different. She acts different for days at a time and then say she’s fine and denies anything is up when asked. Then she disclosed that this trip was what was bothering her.

I ended up discussing this with her and it devolved into a big discussion/arguments about our relationship, yet again. We literally ended up talking about and almost separating that morning. It was super upsetting and emotional for both of us. When we are good, we’re good. And then this happens and we’re instantaneously not good at all.

I asked her repeatedly to go to counselling with me. She says she isn’t ready and when I asked her why not and what does she have to lose when we are literally talking about separation. She couldn’t tell me the reasons why - just that she’s not ready. I get the sense it’s because it would force her to confront what is going on and may lead to a diagnosis so she’s terrified. I am getting to the point where I am fed up living these highs and lows all the time and being accused of things I haven’t done, nor will ever do. It’s exhausting. I ended up telling her I can’t keep doing this cycle of arguing over her repeated accusations or worrying about me cheating all the time. It’s unfounded and baseless. It was super emotional. I find myself in those moments really strong initially and almost hoping she will leave me and then I can start moving on. But I really do love her despite this aspect of her. Then I feel panicked at the reality of what we are contemplating and try to smooth things over then calm things down. We ended up resolving the conflict and came back to what I now refer to baseline with respect to her emotions.

What’s interesting is that I’ve noticed a period of highs after these intensely emotional situations. She is super sexual and affectionate for a few days after this and I feel as though I have my old wife back again. It’s almost as if she thrives on this. It’s super odd. But I have learned to know that it is temporary and only until the next chaotic outburst.

Another thing she said during our argument is that I gave her an ultimatum (counselling) and she hates ultimatums and feels it’s unfair for me to do this in a relationship. She “agreed” to go to counselling a few times during our heated argument (just like last time but haven’t gone yet) when I told her I can’t keep living like this. She said fine, I’ll go but I don’t want to and that she’d only be going for me/the wrong reasons and then a few minutes later she was literally contemplating leaving me. We literally almost broke up over her being unwilling to go to a counsellor to try and save our marriage but she also acknowledged that her behaviour is not ok and she can see how much it is bothering me. And she tells me that I don’t deserve this and to be happy and that I deserve that with someone else. Why would someone rather end a relationship and all the chaos that would cause in our lives and those that are affected rather than at least go to one counselling session? It just seems so crazy to me. To acknowledge you have a problem and admit it but then not want to do anything about it despite being faced with the risk of losing everything you have (except her kids but hers and my life would be seriously impacted by divorce, obviously).

It was a super intense morning and I feel ashamed that I let it get there again. I have been so good in not wearing her emotions since I became aware of what’s going on with her (bpd traits or undiagnosed bpd, finding out about this website and the books I’ve been reading) but it’s so hard to always take the high road and just plug along while your wife is in one of her weird moods and I know something is wrong but she doesn’t want to talk about it because she/we know it will end up in an argument. We both know that close to my planned trip, during and afterwards, this is going to recur as she will be living in her head and catastrophizing the entire time and I know I will be stuck in this cycle of defending myself against false accusations and the awkwardness between us but then I’m not supposed to call it out/discuss it. So frustrating and sad because all we are doing is just hanging out together and not doing anything wrong or weird.

Thanks for reading and allowing me to vent. It’s so hard being with someone that acts like this all the time and I’m sure people in my life get tired of me talking about it.

Hi Nesta,

Thanks for sharing.

I wanted you to know that I read this. Many (all?) of us can relate.  What can we do to support you in this journey?

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[nesta]

Hi,

Maybe she dislikes the word but I believe it is the fact that I said that we need to go to counselling or I can’t keep doing this. Maybe it’s that she feels threatened that I’ll leave her. But then, why not go to counselling? I could try using different language but the genie is out of the bottle I suppose.

[nesta]

Sorry, I’m still learning how to use this site properly. I meant to reply to foreverdad’s comment.

I’m not sure to be honest. Validation I guess? Someone to tell me that I’m wrong or that I’m right? Appreciate you reading and replying Rev. Just writing out my thoughts/getting it off my chest is helpful and to know that I’m not crazy or alone in navigating a relationship with someone who has bpd or traits of bpd. I’m sure my friends get tired of listening to the drama, although they are supportive.

[EyesUp]

Hello Nesta.

If I read correctly, it sounds like you want counseling - to try save the marriage.

Here's the catch:  Counseling doesn't always work.  I'm sure you know this.

And it rarely works if one partner doesn't truly want to participate.  I'm sure you know this, too.

So, forcing the issue with a partner who is already against it has a low probability of "saving the marriage".

I was in a similar position, considering any and all options to try to work through a seemingly impossible situation.  I lost a lot of sleep. 

What else have you considered? 

Would it be helpful to think in terms of "boundaries" instead of "ultimatums"?   << I'm asking if this would be helpful to you and your internal framework, not necessarily if the language would work for your partner (I think we already know...).

[ForeverDad]

Maybe she dislikes the word but I believe it is the fact that I said that we need to go to counselling or I can’t keep doing this. Maybe it’s that she feels threatened that I’ll leave her. But then, why not go to counselling? I could try using different language but the genie is out of the bottle I suppose.

The mental perceptions are quite upside down, so to speak.
 It doesn't make common everyday sense because it is a mental illness where the perceptions are skewed.  It has been said that fear of abandonment is one of the hallmarks of BPD, yet their refusal to look at themselves and improve is what makes them do the abandoning first.  As in, abandon before you can be abandoned.

Also, the general advice is not to name a specific disorder or it can easily trigger an overreaction.  Many therapists will provide long term therapy yet not name a diagnosis as it can be very triggering to a patient.

Some comparisons come to mind when describing a person with BPD (pwBPD) ... Blaming, Blame Shifting, Fault Finding, Denial, Emotions = Perceived Facts, etc.  No wonder these persons have such a hard time accepting therapy and sticking with it.

[Cat Familiar]

 “Why would someone rather end a relationship and all the chaos that would cause in our lives and those that are affected rather than at least go to one counselling session?”

She might think that going to therapy will force her to look at those painful feelings of inadequacy, self loathing, and shame that people with BPD typically feel, despite their outward presentation.

Why don’t you go to counseling alone? Typically couples counseling when one partner is a person with BPD (pwBPD) leads to outcomes that are disappointing for the *non* partner—that is if the pwBPD even continues after the first session. You will read here over and over how the pwBPD refused to return to counseling or how couples have gone through multiple therapists, hoping for improvement in their relationships. (Guaranteed it is the pwBPD who has fired the therapist.)

[livednlearned]

I think it's more that pwBPD fear being emotionally exposed.

Intimacy is hard for her (more so than for non-BPD).

Counseling is an act of intimacy. Intimacy requires vulnerability.

Vulnerability requires trust and trust is hard for someone with BPD.

A lot of pwBPD tend to exist in a world of scarcity. She's in survival mode much of the time and cannot trust (due to splitting, for one).

NEA-BPD Family Connections workshop facilitators encouraged non-BPD people to learn specific relationship and communication skills that are not intuitive and must be learned.

These skills don't cure BPD and they won't stop the roller coaster. However, they might help make things less worse. You might experience fewer cycles, or less intense ones. But they won't go away completely without your wife being motivated to get better with treatment. 

To be fair, I think some of this is true in non-BPD relationships. In my current marriage (neither of us have BPD), if I am experiencing strong emotions about something that generates conflict, and I work to figure out what's going on for me, this makes it much easier for my husband to feel emotionally safe. He is then more likely to examine his role and we work things out together.

If you're talking about counseling during an emotionally charged conversation and it's linked to the survival of the relationship, especially for a person with abandonment issues ... that's going to feel pretty scary.

There is no way my BPDx would go to therapy. He didn't want our son to go to therapy. However, when I suggested our son go to therapy because of something I felt responsible for, suddenly therapy was a terrific idea. Even though 90 percent of my son's issues were driven by things BPDx was doing.