S7 lies about time with me and UBPD mom wants to shorten our vacation in return

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is my first lengthy post here and also I'm not a native speaker, I hope it'll fit in fine anyways!

I'm a 43 old male and my S7 is with me for the second half of the summer holidays which are six weeks in Germany. During school he is with me only every second weekend, but we already spent many longer holidays before. This summer holidays I have been working during the day (no other choice this time unfortunately) and my 68 year old mother takes care of him during that time. I then take over in the evening and during the weekend. We both try to do fun things, they play Monopoly together a lot, go for little hikes, there's a mini pool in the garden, we had the neighboring kids over for water pistol battles, were camping during the weekend and so on. My son mentioned by himself a few times that he'd like us to stay longer at my moms and return later to the big city where he and his mom and I live in the same neighboorhood.

We're two and a half weeks in with my part of the holidays and today he asked to call his UBPD mom for the first time, which I encouraged. A few hours later I received an email from her, stating he said he would miss her so much, wanted to return to her and "spend lots of time in a corner crying" because of that. Therefore she demands that I'd return him to her two days earlier from vacation than was agreed upon. My mom and me were totally shocked to read this, because we had the impression he had a pretty good time with us and he definitely never cried, except one night in the tent camping where he had fear and I'm well aware of that and made it clear to him we won't repeat it in this way.

Regarding parenting, with his mother there is often lots of drama and usually she is very inconsequential and instead of having clear rules she rather works with "bribes" like sweets and so on most of the time, and surprisingly her tantrums seem to make him even more attached to her. The video games rule while he was in Kindergarden was for example "no videogames in the morning before Kindergarden" and otherwise he could do as he wanted. In contrast im quite clear about rules and try to stick to them (still one can discuss everything), there's significantly less sweets, TV and video games when he's with me and I try make him behave more responsible step by step like putting away your own clothes and so on, which works fine I think. During the two weeks here, he is already half way through his very first book on his own and enjoys reading in bed before sleeping. Still I can see how my approach could make me the more strict and less favorite parent.

Now I feel terribly betrayed by my son, lying in this way to his mother, after we were trying to do our best. I'm not sure if and how to talk about this issue with him and be happy on opinions and advice about this.

More generally with him obviously not liking his time with me that much, I wonder how to best deal with that in general, as I fear I'll probably be the stricter parent anyways, unless I drop most of my parenting efforts. Also I think he'd benefit from a more structured and consequential approach that is a bit more down to earth, so it'd feel rather bad trying to be the more laisser faire parent.

Does it make sense from a parenting perspective to bring him to his mom already on Saturday so he can "settle in before school" instead of bringing him to school on Monday myself where she would pick him up?

Also right now I feel torn between being firm on what was agreed upon or giving in and returning him on Saturday to avoid escalation and to not trigger her, as we're currently also in discussions about extending the time he is with me on a regular basis. Especially this last part is where I could need good advice.

Thanks in advance and again sorry I'm not yet able to write as smoothly as the rest here.

[RandomDude]

This is my first lengthy post here and also I'm not a native speaker, I hope it'll fit in fine anyways!

I'm a 43 old male and my S7 is with me for the second half of the summer holidays which are six weeks in Germany. During school he is with me only every second weekend, but we already spent many longer holidays before. This summer holidays I have been working during the day (no other choice this time unfortunately) and my 68 year old mother takes care of him during that time. I then take over in the evening and during the weekend. We both try to do fun things, they play Monopoly together a lot, go for little hikes, there's a mini pool in the garden, we had the neighboring kids over for water pistol battles, were camping during the weekend and so on. My son mentioned by himself a few times that he'd like us to stay longer at my moms and return later to the big city where he and his mom and I live in the same neighboorhood.

We're two and a half weeks in with my part of the holidays and today he asked to call his UBPD mom for the first time, which I encouraged. A few hours later I received an email from her, stating he said he would miss her so much, wanted to return to her and "spend lots of time in a corner crying" because of that. Therefore she demands that I'd return him to her two days earlier from vacation than was agreed upon. My mom and me were totally shocked to read this, because we had the impression he had a pretty good time with us and he definitely never cried, except one night in the tent camping where he had fear and I'm well aware of that and made it clear to him we won't repeat it in this way.

Regarding parenting, with his mother there is often lots of drama and usually she is very inconsequential and instead of having clear rules she rather works with "bribes" like sweets and so on most of the time, and surprisingly her tantrums seem to make him even more attached to her. The video games rule while he was in Kindergarden was for example "no videogames in the morning before Kindergarden" and otherwise he could do as he wanted. In contrast im quite clear about rules and try to stick to them (still one can discuss everything), there's significantly less sweets, TV and video games when he's with me and I try make him behave more responsible step by step like putting away your own clothes and so on, which works fine I think. During the two weeks here, he is already half way through his very first book on his own and enjoys reading in bed before sleeping. Still I can see how my approach could make me the more strict and less favorite parent.

Now I feel terribly betrayed by my son, lying in this way to his mother, after we were trying to do our best. I'm not sure if and how to talk about this issue with him and be happy on opinions and advice about this.

More generally with him obviously not liking his time with me that much, I wonder how to best deal with that in general, as I fear I'll probably be the stricter parent anyways, unless I drop most of my parenting efforts. Also I think he'd benefit from a more structured and consequential approach that is a bit more down to earth, so it'd feel rather bad trying to be the more laisser faire parent.

Does it make sense from a parenting perspective to bring him to his mom already on Saturday so he can "settle in before school" instead of bringing him to school on Monday myself where she would pick him up?

Also right now I feel torn between being firm on what was agreed upon or giving in and returning him on Saturday to avoid escalation and to not trigger her, as we're currently also in discussions about extending the time he is with me on a regular basis. Especially this last part is where I could need good advice.

Thanks in advance and again sorry I'm not yet able to write as smoothly as the rest here.

[RandomDude]

Also I noticed that I perceive quite a lot of entitlement and maybe even manipulative behavior in S7, more than I see with other children of the same age group. If he wants something he'll play all his cards to get it and the usual direct response to not only requests but also most suggestions from me is dismissive or refractory. As sad as it is, I have to admit I like him less for this.

[GaGrl]

First, are you sure the conversation between your son and his mother went this way? Because it could be reported to you through his mother's filter.

I would stick to the schedule.

[RandomDude]

Pretty sure about the general tone of the conversation because my mom even noticed it and a bit sure he even said the "crying in a corner" part.

Still I think he gets overly whiny at times and it seems him being whiny is also one mode of interaction thats a bit more frequent between them.

Leaning to "stick to schedule" too because I don't think there's much merit in following her line of thought, but I also want the start of the next semester to be good for him.

[Turkish]

He's 7. I'd keep that in mind.

For years, my kids' mom would complain that she often had trouble with them when they came back from me. I never really responded. I wasn't going to validate the invalid.

Less than 2 weeks ago at back to school orientation, D11 wanted to come home with my on mom's night. I reminded her that she was coming back to me the following night, but that today was mom's day. I hugged her and told her I loved her and that I'd see her the following day. I'd focus on validating your son's feelings...especially as a 7 year old.

[GaGrl]

My son had trouble with transitions -- Sunday evenings were tough, so I learned to make them super-chill.

Still, schedules were followed.

[RandomDude]

So this morning I asked him if he was "crying in a corner" all the time here and he put on a poker face and said yes, shrugging it off with a "you can't do anything about it anyways" vibe. I also asked if that's what he told his mom and if by crying he meant tears all over his face and he said yes in the same manner. I left it at this and later with his grandma he confirmed that he "didn't mean it like this" i.e. it wasn't true what he said to me and his mom.

An hour ago I had a talk with him and told him that I think he lied to my face this morning, that that's a no go for me and that TV, sweets and video games will be on hold until we step out of the train on Friday.
I also told him he can tell his mother whatever he wants even though I think it's a good idea not to make up things that aren't true especially when they could produce conflict. Also he should tell me if there was anything wrong about how I see the situation.

He definitely didn't shrug off the conversation this time, I hope he got that the issue was the lying and not being open about his emotions with his mother.

[Tangled mangled]

So this morning I asked him if he was "crying in a corner" all the time here and he put on a poker face and said yes, shrugging it off with a "you can't do anything about it anyways" vibe. I also asked if that's what he told his mom and if by crying he meant tears all over his face and he said yes in the same manner. I left it at this and later with his grandma he confirmed that he "didn't mean it like this" i.e. it wasn't true what he said to me and his mom.

An hour ago I had a talk with him and told him that I think he lied to my face this morning, that that's a no go for me and that TV, sweets and video games will be on hold until we step out of the train on Friday.
I also told him he can tell his mother whatever he wants even though I think it's a good idea not to make up things that aren't true especially when they could produce conflict. Also he should tell me if there was anything wrong about how I see the situation.

He definitely didn't shrug off the conversation this time, I hope he got that the issue was the lying and not being open about his emotions with his mother.

Just want to add that you are doing a great job.
The parenting approach when the other parent is disordered is typically counter parenting.
My stbx husband with ubpd was a passive parent and my sons started telling lies, being sticky and the older one s9 even learned how to gaslight me.
It’s tough on you as your son lives with his disordered parent most of the time.  I have moved over 300 miles away with my children and it’s taken months to undo some of their bad behaviours.
It’s important you continue lay down a structured environment with rules when you have your son.
And take every feedback from his mum with a grain of salt. Like others have pointed out, yes your son may have told lies but not without his mum’s blessings. The pwbpd is an expert at inducing guilt, doubt, shame and every negative emotion under the sun.

[livednlearned]

He's probably in a loyalty bind of some type with his mom which isn't uncommon for kids with a BPD parent.

My son lied a lot as a child and I tried to figure out where it was coming from. Sometimes he would lie for reasons that never occurred to me. Your son might be saying what he's saying because he wants to play a video game in that moment or... who knows. Like Turkish said, he's 7. Maybe his mom pressured him to think he was crying because then he's in her good graces and that's important because being in her bad graces might be scary. Maybe he's learning it's better to risk lying and getting caught than being himself and having his own feelings about things.

Your son might be lying to get his way, and he might be lying to survive a tricky moment that's too complex for him to navigate on his own.

My son was 11 when his BPD dad had a psychotic break (fueled in part by prescription pills and alcohol) during custodial time. n/BPDx sent emails, text messages, DMs, voicemails suggesting he was going to kill our son. I had given my son a cell phone in case he needed to contact me or another adult if there was an emergency. After the episode, I asked S11 about the phone and he said he couldn't find it. Later, it came out that S11 pretended to be asleep when his dad was raging.

I think we have to put ourselves in their shoes. In retrospect it was clever of S11 to play possum and pretend he was asleep because god knows how taxing it is as an adult to be on the receiving end of BPD delusions. I thought the reason S11 lied to me is because he was afraid I would be disappointed in him, or be mad, which I can understand now. It was sort of implied in the question that I expected him to call despite how he felt witnessing what his dad was going through.

Yet, I've been in a similar situation, worse even, and I never called law enforcement to help. In fact, that night I called law enforcement and then walked it back because I was afraid they would make things much worse by not recognizing how mentally ill and dangerous n/BPDx was behaving, leaving S11 there in a worse environment after provoking his dad, and me having no legal recourse to bring S11 home.

Maybe the circumstance with your son wasn't dangerous, but his mom is mentally ill and he is probably trying to do anything he can to survive. He's learning that it works to have a false self, like his mom has.

One antidote to that is to validate him so he learns that it's ok to feel what he's feeling, and to even understand what those feelings are so he can name them.

Punishing him for lying might work for a regular kid with regular parents, but he didn't win that lottery.

A punishment might be, "We're going to stick to the schedule. If you feel sad next time, come to me and we can work through it together and maybe things will be different."

That way he isn't getting what he said he wanted (be sad --> go to moms) and you get to call mom's bluff about what happens when S7 is sad. If he's sad, work through those feelings together while he's with you. That doesn't mean you can't say, "Hey, lying is wrong." In fact, it's the opposite. It says "Lying makes me do the opposite thing you led me to think you wanted." Whereas the punishment he got seems disconnected from what he did.

[RandomDude]

Thanks, all the answers are really helpful  

The ship with the punishment has already sailed unfortunately and I won't pull back to not lose credibility. It's only one and a half days without TV etc anyways. If I spared him that, at least a brief firm talk would have been in place in my opinion, as it was really a big no go how he lied to my face so blatantly.

He definitely didn't take the whole thing lightly. Whole afternoon he was very attentive and tried to get on positive terms again. I just kept my usual demeanor. Still I feel he might have saved a bullet or two for later when he's back with mom.

As holidays are over soon I have till Sunday at best to get into a good mode with him again and talk about he underlying issues like trust and so on, before he's subject to UBPDs framing again for whole two weeks. That is if she doesn't manage to force me to return him on Saturday already.

[RandomDude]

Right now not even sure any more if the "brief talk" would have been a good idea.

If I hadn't committed to being angry at him very early on there'd probably been a good opportunity to make him open up to me and negate UBPDs (possibly unconscious) efforts.

[ForeverDad]

And take every feedback from his mum with a grain of salt. Like others have pointed out, yes your son may have told lies but not without his mum’s blessings. The pwbpd is an expert at inducing guilt, doubt, shame and every negative emotion under the sun.

And an expert at twisting reality to support her sense of self rather than proper parenting. I suspect he was in some way trying to appease or gain her favor. Or maybe he was peeved at something relatively unimportant in the moment at your home. A thought from Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison: Your child trusts you to not be unfair but he may feel he needs to please his mother more.

There may be a grain of truth in there somewhere. One member here remarked that he knew his ex was lying when she opened her mouth. Maybe an exaggeration, but not by much.

[RandomDude]

So how do I deal with her wanting me to return him on Saturday already?

Our agreement for the holidays was "half the time he'll be with me, details will be clarified later". What happens at the end of holidays wasn't a detail that needs to be clarified for me, as I always return him to school and not to her. Also I don't believe it'd be better for him to "settle in with her before school starts" than settling in with me.

[ForeverDad]

If not for this latest dust-up, what was the expected outcome?  Why would you not stick with it?

[kells76]

Do you have any kind of documentation (email, text, etc) that it had to be her way (or yours)?

If not, then she can want whatever she wants. You can announce to her (not ask, hope, convince, plead!) that you'll drop him off at school on Monday.

What would be the worst that you think she would actually do?

A lot of times, pwBPD will talk a lot about how they "don't like the idea" or "think it's a bad idea" etc, but when it comes to actually doing anything about it, nothing happens. It can be important for the kids to know that they have stability and that Mom's sudden mood changes won't rule their world or schedule.

[RandomDude]

Actually I have some documentation. Already forgot about that over all the turmoil.

When she initially wanted me to bring him early on Sunday I said I'd rather not and she agreed to that two days ago. Then more or less directly afterwards my son wanted to call her and the rest is already documented here

I think simply declaring I'll drop him off at school could REALLY trigger her, judging from past experiences. Also she still needs to hand over his school stuff to me, so either she cooperates or he'd be in school without his books, which I'm sure he'd hate.

[RandomDude]

Think I might write her the following concerning the drop-off:

"He can also settle in with me when we're back in town, and on the first day of school, everyone mostly talks about their vacations anyway, that'll be fine. I understand that you have only good intentions, but I don't really see a reason to change it. Does something like Saturday morning at 10 o'clock work to pick up the school bag?"

Not sure how well that translated from German, but general picture should be there.

I need to smirk when I read the part with the good intentions and she won't even notice, that feels good.

[RandomDude]

So another update, my son and me are on good terms again, we clarified it and he said "always crying in a corner" wasn't what he wanted to say, he just wanted to let his UBPD mom know that he misses her very very very very much.

That was a relief and I immediately let him know that missing his mom is of course very good and understandable and that I'm happy the other things he said weren't meant that way.  

 

[Turkish]

That's good! You and he were able to communicate on a level that you both understood.

[RandomDude]

And another update, the recommendation to declare I'll stick to schedule was spot on.

Wrote her it's what we agreed on, so that's what I'm gonna do.

Also I added that I'd already informed her about my reasoning and that while I'd like to write her, these emails would always take lots of time to write (they do, I'm very deliberate), but right now I'd be on a tight schedule. I think that was very helpful.

This evening she just wrote "Will drop off the school bag Sunday at 10 a.m." Not polite by any means but still a big step forward!

[livednlearned]

I'm generally a flexible, adaptable person but with my ex I stuck to the schedule like it was written in stone. Any small changes led to a cascade of headaches.

If n/BPDx wanted me to take care of our son, I did so every time. But changing the scheduling to accommodate a fleeting feeling or perception (or delusion) often led to bigger dysregulations and at a certain point, I was done with nonsense. I envisioned scheduling like things were written in stone.

Even when things were inconvenient for me, I stuck to the schedule. I would've loved to change vacation times so our son would have opportunities offered by people who cared about us, that would've made him so happy, but the cost was just too high.

[ForeverDad]

I'm generally a flexible, adaptable person but with my ex I stuck to the schedule like it was written in stone. Any small changes led to a cascade of headaches.

Why?  If you do the reasonable thing, as you of course consider yourself a reasonable person, and try to accommodate a request/demand then it would almost surely be perceived as a weakening of your boundaries and it would incite more boundary pushing.

As long as you're not being nasty, it is usually a wise policy to stick to your boundaries and decisions.

[RandomDude]

So this morning before she came over with the school bag I was stressed out, all kinds of scenarios going on in my head. While my son and me were furnishing his new room (I just moved closed to his school / walking distance to his mother).

When she came I could see that she was really stressed out and after the greeting I offered her to have a look at the room, wich was good I think. There she tried again to get emotional with him / cuddle but to my surprise he easily let go again of her and she left again, everything went smoothly.

Great. Challenge well handled. Everyone lived happily ever after.

Which means when me and my son were walking home together after a pizza and it was time for bed she called me and said there were books she forgot to put in the school bag and also a little paper bag given by the teacher to put a few items reminding the kids of holiday experiences.

She offers to bring it tomorrow immediately before school, but I said we'll come by immediately and we made a detour, picked up a ton of books, but at least the detour was a quick one, without an hour of hugging and crying. My son totally gets stressed out when he doesn't exactly bring everything he's supposed to, so how cool that she thought of it, albeit a bit late.

So on the way back to my place my son already is whiny because all the books are too much, on the first day he's supposed to just bring one and not two kilos of paper.

I'll just drop off the excess books into her mailbox tomorrow.

Let's see if she finds another thing to stop me from bringing our child to school tomorrow smoothly.

I feel like typing all the words that it seems I'm not supposed to type in this forum and would trigger the moderator-bot. Please everyone imagine a healthy amount of them here, the most common ones will probably fit well.