Back again

[mcgoggles]

Hi there,

I was here back in Jan/Feb. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=354477.0
I left for awhile because there hadn't been much resolution. She's pretty much all the things in on the BPD checkmark. In July we began to see a counselor- was primarily for addressing my son's concerning behavior, but also our relationship. We learned some stuff about each other, we decided we agreed we were a platonic partnership and no longer romantic. That only lasted for so long and so now it has been in a bizarre state where one moment we are like work friends or college buddies and the next she's screaming at me like when she thought she was still my wife. It's been 10 years. She was living with me while I went to college. She was jealous and possessive. I started to notice more and more concerning behavior and now here we are.

This past Sunday was the final straw. She was extremely upset and about a family outing to the science museum. She got impatient and decided we weren't going then went to sleep on the couch. My kid was bummed so we hung out together in my room. I quietly told him to get his shoes and we'd go to the park. It was then she woke up, asked me what the hell I was doing. She was beyond pissed because I was supposed to have continued to get ready for the outing. She threw things, did the usual martyr shtick of "fine I won't eat or drink anything". She took the kid and stormed out. I just sat there in my shorts, knowing she forgot her bus fare and hoping she decided to just go do something else with our son..about 10 minutes I hear her storm back in.
"See? I knew you didn't want to go!"
I say nothing.
"are you going or not?"
Still I'm silent (mainly because I'm not sure what to say)
She stomps down the hall and screams at me "WHY WON'T YOU TALK TO ME? ARE YOU COMING WITH US OR NOT?"
I say no, I don't want to.
As this is occurring, there was a cabinet drawer (about 20x20 with about a 3 inch depth) sitting on the floor behind me because it needed fixing, it had a couple tools in it. As soon as I say "I don't want to" she grabs and shoves me. I fall backwards and land on the drawer, completely breaking it. She storms back out of my room. Silence and about 2 minutes later I hear "GET OUT HERE YOU PIECE OF SH-T". I get dressed and go with her and the boy. Part of the reason I comply is fear for myself and the other is for him. On our way out of the building, to the bus stop and throughout the museum she walks way faster than me with the kid, she doesn't hold doors open for me.

Still, I participate and engage with the kid. We go to the food court and I have to pretend like everything is ok. She's still angry as if I did something wrong.

When we are home, I go straight to my room (which she's annoyed about) and looked at the injury. Throughout the day I was noticing a slight pain. I see a large bruise about the size of a post-it note on my hip. I'd been in shock most of the day from what had occurred but seeing the bruise I realize "oh wow this is really one of THOSE scenarios, huh?" I think back and realize I've been terrified of her, even before our son was born. I tell one of my closest friends and she's EXTREMELY because she's friends with my wife too. I honestly don't think any of my friends or family would find this surprising at this point.

Luckily I recorded the incident and took photos of the bruise. For the past year and a half I've been recording instances of her when she's volatile or violent. Somehow I knew that day I knew I had to be ready.

Another best friend of mine offers me to stay at his house, but I turn him down.
I need to divorce her, I need to get custody of my kid and either get a restraining order or press charges so she goes to jail

I have a large google doc and folder. On  mission, wish me luck.

[livednlearned]

mcgoggles, I'm so sorry to hear how bad it's gotten. It's not uncommon to feel so beaten down and trapped that we go along with things just to keep the peace or hope to turn a corner (not to mention keep your son safe).

She was clearly dysregulated and felt entitled to act out her aggression on you. Things don't often get better once it starts to get this bad.

That had to be scary for both you and your son.

Let us know how things go next

You're not alone.

[ForeverDad]

One thing I learned from my divorce was that many judges don't look back more than six months before a case was filed.  I recall when I listed incidents when first separated that I was stopped at six months, evidently anything older is ignored as being too old, not actionable or legally stale.

Have you (privately and confidentially) consulted family law attorneys so (1) you're familiar with how your state handles divorces and custody disputes and (2) hear a variety of legal strategies?  Consultations are generally inexpensive.

What you described happening is precisely why having your own home and parenting time is healthier for the children.  Your parenting that day was so twisted around, you were sabotaged and forced into appeasing the situation, your child didn't see an optimal example of parenting.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc.  Over 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

Of course, getting there is a monumental challenge in itself.  But many of us here in peer support have done just that.  Recovery is a process, so is the unwinding of a marriage.

[mcgoggles]

I appreciate the sympathy and words of encouragement...My goal is to establish custody and separation first. Somehow her name was taken off the lease, but this works in my favor. I am expecting her to leave,  but if she refuses to negotiate custody (as a borderline likely wouldn't) I'd have to go thorough the courts for sole custody. My conundrum is if she is kicked out, she could just take the boy, right?

[ForeverDad]

My goal is to establish custody and separation first... My conundrum is if she is kicked out, she could just take the boy, right?

Yes, without something already filed in court, she could take the child with her.  After all, you both would have equal but undefined parenting rights.  Essentially it would be "possession is 9/10 of the law"... until one of you takes it to court.  Even the police won't step in without a court order in hand.  However they will try to resolve any incidents but that's just to separate the two disputing parents, they will ignore the parenting conflict.  It all comes down to filing in family court and obtaining a court order.

In a perfect world your preparation and attention to legal details ought to give you the best (or least bad) outcome.  Reality is too often different and inexplicable.

My story from over 15 years ago... My ex was facing a Threat of DV case but when she got out she rushed to family court and filed for ex parte protection from me for herself and our preschooler.  When I appeared at the hearing CPS rep stood up and stated they had "no concerns" about me so our son was excluded from her petition.  But we needed a temp order in the interim, yes, a temp order.  Even though I had a protection order and possession of the home from the other court, family court ignored her pending status over there and issued a temp order assigning her custody and majority time. The temp order and the virtually unchanged one issued when I filed for divorce were "temporary" orders that spanned 2 years and 4 months.  I did nothing wrong yet I was at a significant disadvantage the entire time.  Neither the court nor the lawyers showed any interest in making adjustments.  After all, the order was only "temporary".

I hear things are a little better these days, more states default to equal time but still you have to be alert, informed and proactive to walk out with a "less bad" court order, typically a temp order to start if you can't work out a settlement beforehand.

One last thought... Few here managed to get a court to agree to full custody to one parent, at least not at first.  Also, understand that in many states legal custody is a separate matter from the parenting schedule.  So both custody as well as parenting time are a mixed bag of responsibilities shared or allocated to some extent between the parents.

The best guidebook is William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder which is also a topic discussed on our Book Reviews board.  It describes many of the gotchas, traps and common pitfalls we can encounter as we enter the bizarro legal world of custody and parenting issues.

[mcgoggles]

Is having audio of the abuse, the photos of the injury and the doctor's report still not enough? I also took a photo of a scratch she left on his cheek and the audio of him describing..If I have maybe one other recorded convo with visual proof does that offer anymore help? I'm starting to get into this area where if I document this abuse long enough with without intervening I could be considered a negligent parent and still lose custody. I'm expected to act regardless if I can ensure my son's safety or not. Goes without saying none of this is fair but jfc.

[ForeverDad]

There is a difference courts and the supporting services make clear.

You as an adult are capable and legally entitled to exit a bad relationship.  So they're not so much concerned about You, You are assumed able to care for yourself in general terms, so their support if generally more subdued.

However, the children are minors and legally limited or unable to protect themselves.  Therefore the courts and supporting agencies do focus far more attention and actionable response if the children are harmed.  You can walk away, children are stuck and merit more proactive help.

And in many areas the fact that the children are exposed to abuse or DV may also be actionable.

Apologies if prior comments were not clear that what happens to or around the children is far more likely to generate a response from authorities than what happens to or around you.

If your child has been harmed by abusive behavior, then yes, seek prompt assistance from the pediatrician or hospital resources.  Generally they are mandated to report such concerning instances to the responsible authorities.  You too can and should seek guidance from children's services.

[kells76]

Hey again mcgoggles;

Is having audio of the abuse, the photos of the injury and the doctor's report still not enough? I also took a photo of a scratch she left on his cheek and the audio of him describing..If I have maybe one other recorded convo with visual proof does that offer anymore help? I'm starting to get into this area where if I document this abuse long enough with without intervening I could be considered a negligent parent and still lose custody. I'm expected to act regardless if I can ensure my son's safety or not. Goes without saying none of this is fair but jfc.

Couple of directions you can go here.

One is contacting a local DV center and sharing with them what you've shared here. You could emphasize that your son's well-being is your top priority and that you are concerned that she will take him away, which is a big reason you're still sticking around. You could also acknowledge that you recognize that what she's doing isn't okay, yet you need help making a safety plan for you and your son together (i.e. you aren't staying because you believe all of this is okay, but because you want to make sure that your son will have you in his life).

Another, that you could do in parallel, is reaching out to a few local lawyers and asking for an initial consultation. Again, share those specific documentation questions that you've posted here. This doesn't mean you have to retain that lawyer or pay a ton. Some initial consultations are free (ours was) and others are low cost. If on the phone you say that your situation involves female-on-male DV then that may prompt the L to make specific suggestions or recommendations that can be helpful in your area.

Like you recognize, there is a fine line between wrapping up with gathering evidence and starting to expose a child to abuse. Getting specific recommendations from DV centers and lawyers in your area will be very important in helping you know how to protect your son.

This is hard stuff, and we'll be here for you.

[mcgoggles]

Ok I think I will reach out to a local DV center.
Has anyone here used (or attempted to use) the couples' therapist you saw as a witness or asked if they were willing to submit notes?

Also, I've asked the boy in passing how he'd feel it was just he and I and he and his mom and while he used to say just "me and dad" he's decided it has to be everyone. I can't tell if it's because her relationship is better with him now or he's begun to rationalize her behavior, but the child choosing which parent they want to stay with is also factored right?

[ForeverDad]

When abuse is reported, the agencies try to protect the children from the abuse, not necessarily whom the child wishes as parent.  Older children, generally approaching or already in their teens, may tell a court whom they prefer to live with, then the court decides.

My son was still 11 years old when my ex wanted him to speak up for her in an "in camera" interview at court.  Courts generally don't hear from young children, though counselors and other professionals may share information less formally with a Guardian ad Litem (GAL or child's lawyer) or an in-depth Custody Evaluator.  (Counselors and therapists get very unhappy when sued or have complaints made to the licensing boards.)  It was the first time - about 5 years after the final decree - he had to appear.  The magistrate and GAL didn't ask him directly, instead they observed his reactions when one parent was discussed versus the other parent.  They watched his eyes and overall demeanor.  That revealed more than words could.

If your child is still young and pre-puberty, his vocal preferences will have little impact, the abuse and risk of future abuse will have more impact IMHO.

[mcgoggles]

Spoke with an acquaintance who happens to be a therapist specializing in couples' therapy and divorce. At his recommendation I am filing a police report. He said I should that ready before approaching legal counsel. The thought of being free and being able to show my son a brighter worldview makes me impatient and want to just hand her the papers, but I realize that's reckless.


A big difference between how I was when I first approached that group and now is I've been regularly getting therapy, working and have a good combo of meds. Even after the assault and realizing we were one of "those" couples, I realized that I don't have to do this anymore.

[mcgoggles]

OK. So she's been acting oddly understanding and patient lately. I have no clue what's going on.
My 3 guesses are:

1) she's having a brief moment of clarity after realizing what shed did and is trying to make sure I don't leave
2) she actually experienced a watershed moment- I'm aware some borderlines 'grow out of it with age'
3) she attends a womens' group (many of the women are from abusive households themselves) and divulging what she did she was told that this could potentially ensure she could lose custody.

I really can't presume to know what's going on in her head, but even IF she's made a sudden change for the better, I simply don't want her in proximity to me at all.

I'm going to file a police report. I'm telling her I'm running errands so she doesn't know.
Wish me luck.

[ForeverDad]

From one standpoint, timing is important.  I've posted in the past calling emergency services "my house almost burned down last week!" won't get much of a response, perhaps "please call back if it is an ongoing emergency".

However, it's common sense that often a person can't call in the middle of an emergency, so you would have to make a report as soon as possible afterward.

How prepared are you for the aftermath, the overreaction?  In my case the one time I called the police, once I made a police report, we separated and soon started a divorce.  So... are your ducks in a row?  What if your spouse then counters with allegations against you?

So don't just make a police report.  Also simultaneously consult some family law attorneys for appropriate defensive and proactive strategies.

[mcgoggles]

My city has a non-emergency line with officers reserved for this. I only discovered this when I went to the city's police HQ and the cop at the front desk told me to file a non-emergency police report. It was recommended to NOT press charges and simply keep it along with the doctor's notes, the photos and the recording. There is a local org offering free legal advice and I'll talk to them next.
One thing I'm definitely thinking about lately is the responsibility I'll be taking on concerning my son's schooling and medical stuff.
She's been the one handling all of that up to this, so I'll be working AND taking care of the boy.
Has anyone did this? How did you handle it?

[kells76]

My city has a non-emergency line with officers reserved for this. I only discovered this when I went to the city's police HQ and the cop at the front desk told me to file a non-emergency police report. It was recommended to NOT press charges and simply keep it along with the doctor's notes, the photos and the recording. There is a local org offering free legal advice and I'll talk to them next.

Smart to talk to the local legal advice group. Let us know what they recommend.

One thing I'm definitely thinking about lately is the responsibility I'll be taking on concerning my son's schooling and medical stuff.
She's been the one handling all of that up to this, so I'll be working AND taking care of the boy.
Has anyone did this? How did you handle it?

You can do it! It is a lot, and it will be good for your son.

Medical: can you remind me if he has any beyond-the-norm medical issues?

Typical medical appointments are a once a year physical, once a year eye doctor, and dentist at least once a year (twice can be typical). You could think about contacting his current providers now and providing a heads up: "Hi Dr. X, just want to let you know that our home arrangement is changing and I'll be taking the lead on bringing S6 to appointments. Because I work full time, is there any way I can schedule his appointments well in advance, so they can be after my work hours or on my off days? Anything else I should know about scheduling?"

School: again, can you remind me if he is receiving any services at school (IEP, 504, etc)? You can think of doing the same thing with school -- sending the "heads up" email letting them know that things may be changing at home, and would they please confirm you're on any/all email/phone notification lists?

Email with the school and with individual teachers can be your friend. Do you think you could carve out ~30 minutes a day to manage school communications? It probably won't be that much, but if you know that you have 30 minutes to stay on top of school emails, you may feel more confident.

Homework: do you and your son have a good working relationship for HW stuff? Again, if I'm remembering correctly, he should be young enough to not have a ton of HW (I hope!), so if you can plan in advance either "OK, I will set aside 30 minutes every night to check HW with him", or "Hey S6, the new homework zone is the kitchen table! That means that my job is to make dinner and your job is to do HW. You can ask me any HW question while I'm making dinner and I'll talk about it with you." You can double up on food prep and helping with HW.

If that's too much, it'd be pretty normal to get some help there. You can reach out to the school first and see if they have something like an "after school cool HW club" -- this could also help if your work hours run later than school pickup -- and/or you can see if there is a local teen who wants to get community service hours/volunteer hours by "tutoring" your son at your kitchen table. That would be lower cost; if there aren't any takers, you may need to pay for a sitter who again is the right age range to help with your son's HW.

You're making a wise decision now to think through what support you'll need in the future. You will need a bigger support structure and it is very possible to make it work.

Hope that's helpful food for thought -- let me know if that didn't quite answer your question.

-kells76

[livednlearned]

I'll be working AND taking care of the boy. Has anyone did this? How did you handle it

I worked full-time and took care of my son and worked on my doctorate degree  

Part of it is that you are in a separate space without the immediate conflict. It's amazing how much of your brain frees up to focus on other things, like problem solving.

Part of it is that I learned to ask for and accept help. I was resistant to any appearance of being weak or needy and learned that was junk in my head not serving me well. Although accepting help was tough, I just had a new perspective (and genuine need).

I was surprised how much people seemed to want to help. In fact, I had to hit the brakes when a coworker went a bit far. I learned to tell people I had this thing going on, but that I had a team of advisors helping and it was handled, in the meantime I needed xyz. Kind of asking for help with boundaries.

Part of it was having amazing colleagues. My boss went above and beyond. In fact, professionally things took off for me while my personal life was a train wreck.

I also leaned on the school, and got the family specialist and guidance counselor involved. I got ahead of issues that I figured might come up in my son's classes and same with anyone caring for my son.

In retrospect, adrenaline and luck got me through much of the first two years. Things settled down and I found energy freed up. You just ... make it work.

We find ways. It's tough, and there will be uncertainty and you'll have non starters, but apply the persistence (for lack of a better word) you focused on being in an abusive relationship to solving problems for you and your kid.

Looking back, I could never keep up that amount of responsibility or work at that pace indefinitely, it was more about getting through the transition without the wheels coming off. I did consider quitting my degree program but oddly enough it was telling my son I might quit that made me stick it out. He was young enough to think I surely must be joking because quitting school was obviously not a thing. It made me realize I was modeling something more than completing the degree for me alone.

What concerns do you have about taking on full care (if that's the likely thing to happen)?

[mcgoggles]

@kells my son has ADHD, he sees a therapist every month (takes meds) and he's on an improvement plan at school.
My concern is the possibility of having to suddenly change my work schedule or his school schedule, or his appointments. I am concerned about messing all of these things up when it's suddenly on me.

[mcgoggles]

Ok. So tomorrow(?) evening I'll telling her about the separation.
Haven't had any luck finding legal advice. The local org that offers it for free isn't doing anymore domestic for a couple months and no-one replied on r/LegalAdvice. Realistically the only things I can actually do are tell her we're getting separated and that I want shared custody. If she takes it well I'll stay so we can establish a plan and talk to our Tuesday therapist, but if not I'll have to ask a friend to come and get me.

My main goal today is taking stock of all my online accounts and changing the passwords. After work tomorrow I'll put my bare essentials (computer, paperwork, clothes) in my luggage just in case it goes south. I have friends who have offered housing. Main reason I didn't totally walk out is that depending on which version of her is in charge that day she could tell the boy I'm leaving and never coming back.

[ForeverDad]

Likely she and many others will consider that you should be the one to leave.  But if she's the one behaving poorly, then she ought to leave.  But unless you get a court to agree, yes, you may need to leave.

But look at it this way, you shouldn't "leave the kids behind".  Granted, she may be very possessive and claim they're "her" kids.  And many authorities may be inclined to favor mothers in general.  So if she doesn't agree to at least a temporary equal time or parenting time agreeable to you, then promptly seek to have domestic or family court to create a court order.  Usually the minimum you'd get is alternate weekends (I had Friday pm to Monday pm) and an overnight in between.  These days courts in some areas are more likely to begin with equal time but expect her to try to sabotage that, typically with false (aka unsubstantiated) allegations.

If you do end up leaving the home for an extended period then when seeking an apartment, make sure you choose one large enough to the kids to stay there too on your parenting time.

My ex misbehaved before and after the first police visit.  Since I had recorded some of it (quietly, not triggering an incident) and had proof she could not deny, police charged her with Threat of DV.  Though she was proclaimed Not Guilty four months later, it meant I had a temp protection order with possession of the home during those months.  However it did not stop her from getting the usual custody and majority time common in my area.

If/when you go to court to get an initial temp order, advocate for yourself and your parenting.  Get as much custody and parenting time as possible.  If you sit back and let her snatch it from you without you advocating for yourself and your children, it will take more effort and money to fix it later on.

[mcgoggles]

It's happened. I told her last week and was told to leave the following morning, which I did. I'm living with my friend right now. She's been taunting me thru texts and she's trying to collect the same kind of proof I have on her. I think her family/friends are also looking at my social media accounts. She tells me our son has been better since I left. I told her I'm glad he's doing well..
I'm not as mad as I thought I'd be but rest assured I will never forgive until the day she dies. I'm debating if I need to file that police report and attempt to completely take him from her.

[mcgoggles]

been almost 2 weeks living with my friend. In agreeing to move out of the apartment that is in MY NAME, that I am paying rent for, I now have a transit that requires walking a half-mile and two buses to get to work. Been sent several walls of angry text that I gloss over. She still asks for help (she asked me to sign a document confirming I am still fiscally responsible for the apartment, also help setting up her own cashApp account for her paychecks at her new job). She texted me Monday to say she set up an appointment with a real therapist- which I guess is a good sign.
This past Tuesday, I met with our family therapist on Zoom. She already had a session earlier that day with my wife and kid.
She said she was told by my son his mother ripped up the goodbye letter I left him. The therapist has urged me to patient about this because I don't have the funds for a lawyer, and I trust her opinion
She also says my wife attempting to go to a therapist could be a good sign. She's also going to attempt to negotiate with my wife about me seeing our son during school when I'm off, and Sundays too
She has said if my wife doesn't take any of these offers that she understands that I'll be escalating this and fast as I can.

I don't want to devote energy into having to take my son from her and intentionally cause emotional wounds to her, but I have tried so hard. Being vengeful about this isn't good, but I don't know that I can approach this clinically and sterile anymore. I'm way less prone to anger than I used to be cause of good meds and meditation. The most I can say is anything from this point forward is absolutely on her to prevent.

[ForeverDad]

When my parenting dispute resulted with police response, the officers always described it this way.

Police are not there to fix the issues.  Their task was limited to addressing the ongoing dispute.  Sometimes it was handled by carting away one of the parents.  My lawyer told me that in my area it was always the man carted off, whether arrested or just told to find a hotel.

By default the parents have equal - but undefined - rights to the children.  If the parents disagreed, then it was up to them to resolve it in court.  That is, the court would issue an order, often temporary at first and possibly of limited duration.  Until then it is typically "possession is 9ths of the law".  So if she's in possession and shows no lasting inclination to allow reasonable parenting... you'll likely have to obtain a parenting order from your local family court.

In my case the officers told me call them back once I had a court order in hand.  At one point I had to wait 3 months before I got a court order.  Patience was hard but eventually it worked out.

As for you, you appear to be at the start of a family dispute case.  Do you have legal recognition as being a parent, such as on the child's birth certificate or some other legal document?

I don't want to devote energy into having to take my son from her and intentionally cause emotional wounds to her, but I have tried so hard.

Unless she is viewed as a danger to the child, courts won't allow you to "take your son from her".  (Although if you do get an order assigning you parenting time, then she may perceive it as you taking your son from her.  However, one parent cannot legally dictate limits to the other parent's parenting time without a court order.)  What the court will do is to assign each parent a set schedule for parenting time.  It might be majority time for you or equal time or alternate weekends for you.  Or almost anything in between.  And if that doesn't work for both parents then either parent can go petition back to court to explain why the order needs to be changed.

For young children, if equal time is ordered then one common schedule is 2-2-3 (or 2-2-5-5 over two weeks) where one parent gets Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent gets Wed-Thu overnights and then they alternate Fri-Sat-Sun weekend overnights.

The therapist has urged me to patient about this because I don't have the funds for a lawyer, and I trust her opinion.

However, don't wait too long.  Otherwise when you eventually go to court it might conclude the separation time as having established a pattern of sufficient length that you are not a very involved parent and grant you less time.

We understand that limited finances may restrict you from hiring an attorney.  Be aware that many family law attorneys grant inexpensive consultation sessions where you can get at least some legal advice.  Also, local agencies may provide assistance on how to find lawyers and resources, file forms, etc.