Enforcing boundaries with consquenses

[In4thewin]

I really need some help establishing a game plan regarding how I'm going to respond to verbal abuse. My daughter is 17 and uses highly disrespectful and crude language toward me when angered. I have never used the kind of language she does, although her father who I divorced when my daughter was a toddler has a very foul mouth and has never filtered the language around her. Traditional punitive consequences don't work to modify my daughter's behavior, so it's not like I can take her cell phone away (for example) if she tells me to go F myself. In fact, attempting to enforce a "consequence" has proven to be dangerous. So with all that said, I wan't to be as supportive as possible. I know that she has BPD, it's not her fault, and she's legitimately in a lot of pain. However, I don't believe that she can't control the foul language and name calling, and I feel like I need to start drawing some sort of hard line on the issue in a last ditch effort to change or lessen the behavior before she graduates HS and heads off to college (hopefully). I was considering starting to "withdraw" from her anytime she does this without making it appear that I'm intentionally doing it as a punitive  "consequence". For example, if she curses me out I'd just make myself largely unavailable to her for a day or two--- spend time in my room alone, go to bed early, not watch TV with her, etc. I'd basically be reacting toward her like someone else would if she treated them that way, instead of what I currently do which is just to act like it didn't happen even 20 minutes later once her mood has changed. Maybe then the "natural consequence" of her behavior would help her change it? I'm only hesitant to try this because I'm not sure if this method would actually be considered abusive given my daughter's disorder. I'm so bewildered and desperate to curtail this vile behavior. Please help me try to figure this out!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[kells76]

Hi In4thewin, good question, and one that many parents here share.

Couple of questions to help me understand the situation a bit more:

Traditional punitive consequences don't work to modify my daughter's behavior, so it's not like I can take her cell phone away (for example) if she tells me to go F myself. In fact, attempting to enforce a "consequence" has proven to be dangerous.

What were some traditional approaches you tried, and what did it look like for her to respond dangerously?

Is she in any kind of treatment (or has she been in the past), and did that seem to have any effect on the verbal abuse?

Does she say those kinds of things to anyone else (as far as you can tell)?

...

I was considering starting to "withdraw" from her anytime she does this without making it appear that I'm intentionally doing it as a punitive  "consequence". For example, if she curses me out I'd just make myself largely unavailable to her for a day or two--- spend time in my room alone, go to bed early, not watch TV with her, etc. I'd basically be reacting toward her like someone else would if she treated them that way, instead of what I currently do which is just to act like it didn't happen even 20 minutes later once her mood has changed.

I think this is on the right track -- you can decline to participate in being her target. She can still yell and curse if she wants to, but you don't have to be there to take it and be hurt by it.

One tweak you could consider making will depend on the specifics of when she gets back to baseline and how things go at home, generally. Two days of being unavailable seems like a lot -- does it usually take her that long to "burn out" on her own and re-regulate?

I would maybe approach this "natural consequence" (i.e. "when a person is the target of abusive language, that person may not stick around or continue to be there") less out of hope that "this will finally teach her, now she'll finally get it", and more from a stance of "I can model to her that I respect myself and I don't participate in verbal abuse by listening to it".

It's hard to tell if she will truly learn from or internalize anything from this new change -- though I'm with you, I hope she will. Hanging a lot of hope on her changing may lead to disappointment. However, framing it instead as "I deserve to protect myself, and I can choose to leave unacceptable situations" will always be a win for you.

It may also be the case that even if she can't articulate learning anything from this new approach, her behavior will be the real "tell" of whether this is an effective way to interact with her. Even if she can't say why, or would angrily deny doing anything different, if over time she stops being verbally abusive to you (knowing that you will exit when it starts), that may be the best-case scenario for your relationship.

Not sure if you've seen the NEA-BPD Family Guidelines yet -- they are a very reputable site -- but this one, on "Limit Setting, be Direct but Careful" seemed to apply to your situation:

Do not tolerate abusive treatment such as tantrums, threats, hitting and spitting. Walk away and return to discuss the issue later.

Frank tantrums are not tolerable. There is a range of ways to set limits on them. A mild gesture would be to walk out of the room to avoid rewarding the tantrum with attention. A more aggressive gesture would be to call an ambulance. Many families fear taking the latter step because they do not want an ambulance in front of their home, or they do not want to incur the wrath of the person having the tantrum. When torn by such feelings, one must consider the opposing issues. Safety may be a concern when someone is violent and out of control. Most people would agree that safety takes priority over privacy. Furthermore, by neglecting to get proper medical attention for out-of-control behavior, one may turn a silent ear to it. This only leads to further escalation. The acting out is a cry for help. If a cry for help is not heard, it only becomes louder.

You can check out the rest of the Guidelines, I wonder if the part on "Set limits by stating the limits of your tolerance. Let your expectations be known in clear, simple language. Everyone needs to know what is expected of them" might apply, too? Some members here have more success in "doing" rather than "announcing" changes in boundaries/limits, though in some situations, making a short, clear statement may be helpful. You know your daughter and family situation the best, so whatever direction you choose to go, we can be here to support you.

Food for thought -- hopefully some is helpful;

kells76

[In4thewin]

Hi Kells. Thank you for the response. The consequences I've tried circle around use of technology, and most recently, trying to ground her from seeing her boyfriend. I never had a disciplinary problem with her until about 4ish years ago and no one that knew her previous to this borderline explosion saw this coming. By "dangerous" I mean that that she'd sooner physically attack me than hand over her technology for even a day, and at this point, she'll go into full blown self harming meltdowns if she can't see her boyfriend when he's available. When these emotional issues first started, I didn't recognize them for what they really were because they seemed to come on so quickly during puberty. It didn't help that I was going through menopause at the same time and was having troubles in my marriage (not her father). I really thought that this was teenage defiance--- especially because my ex (her father) was a an absentee and very uncooperative coparent. Long story short, I made the big mistake of sending her off to a wilderness therapy camp, and then a so-called therapeutic boarding school. By her own account the wilderness therapy wasn't bad. However, the boarding school (which is now closed down) was an absolute nightmare. They were utterly unqualified to diagnose and/or treat a complex mental health disorder like BPD, and my daughter's conditioned worsened significantly while there. She came home worse for the wear and my decision to send her there is a major source of relational problems between the two of us. After that, I still didn't know what was wrong. We went to a family therapist who after many months told me that she didn't think she could help. I was referred to someone else who after a handful of sessions delivered me the news that I was already fearing due to my own research--- she thought it could be BPD. At that point we became involved with a group that specializes oi DBT... but my daughter wouldn't play ball, so she was basically dropped from the program after about a year. At this point she's seeing a new local therapist and she's 8 months away from graduating HS. I agree that two days is too long to withdraw. I don't really think I could even do that. She's in so much pain and totally out of control. I'm so sad and regretful, and desperate to try anything that could possibly be helpful.

[kells76]

Hey, thanks for the background on what's going on. That sounds exhausting    -- even "generally normal" teenagers will take it out of you, and your D17 has BPD traits and behaviors on top of that.

The consequences I've tried circle around use of technology, and most recently, trying to ground her from seeing her boyfriend. I never had a disciplinary problem with her until about 4ish years ago and no one that knew her previous to this borderline explosion saw this coming. By "dangerous" I mean that that she'd sooner physically attack me than hand over her technology for even a day, and at this point, she'll go into full blown self harming meltdowns if she can't see her boyfriend when he's available.

That's difficult when you know what her "currency" is (phone and BF) and yet instead of removal of those things having weight with her (getting her to see/change), she explodes/melts down/threatens self-harm in order to keep those things.

When she's more regulated/at baseline, do you think she (a) might acknowledge that verbal abuse isn't okay (whether she believes she can control it or not), and (b) might be open to collaborating with you (or her T) on a "consequence plan"? Something like: "Even though I don't feel like I can control cursing at you when I'm angry, I agree that it probably isn't the best thing to do. I think that if I curse at you, what would be impactful on me for you to do would be [turning off the internet for 30 minutes, leaving the room for one hour, raising your hand and saying Stop, telling me calmly that you are leaving the house...]"

That might be a bit much for a teen with BPD, but I'm curious if she ever has regulated moments where she might feel good about "collaborating" with you on "this is our plan together for when you curse at me". Some pwBPD may be able to do that, some may not -- it depends on your D17. Some pwBPD may not be able to get to that first step of "even if I can't control it, I agree that it hurts you when I curse at you" -- they may be stuck in the place of "you deserve it, it's all your fault", and then a different approach may be necessary.

When these emotional issues first started, I didn't recognize them for what they really were because they seemed to come on so quickly during puberty. It didn't help that I was going through menopause at the same time and was having troubles in my marriage (not her father). I really thought that this was teenage defiance--- especially because my ex (her father) was a an absentee and very uncooperative coparent. Long story short, I made the big mistake of sending her off to a wilderness therapy camp, and then a so-called therapeutic boarding school. By her own account the wilderness therapy wasn't bad. However, the boarding school (which is now closed down) was an absolute nightmare. They were utterly unqualified to diagnose and/or treat a complex mental health disorder like BPD, and my daughter's conditioned worsened significantly while there. She came home worse for the wear and my decision to send her there is a major source of relational problems between the two of us. After that, I still didn't know what was wrong. We went to a family therapist who after many months told me that she didn't think she could help. I was referred to someone else who after a handful of sessions delivered me the news that I was already fearing due to my own research--- she thought it could be BPD. At that point we became involved with a group that specializes oi DBT... but my daughter wouldn't play ball, so she was basically dropped from the program after about a year. At this point she's seeing a new local therapist and she's 8 months away from graduating HS.

Did you notice any difference after 1 year of DBT?

And that sounds promising that your D is at least seeing a local T. As your D is a minor, are you able to talk with the T at all?

What's your D's view on graduating HS -- is she motivated?

I agree that two days is too long to withdraw. I don't really think I could even do that. She's in so much pain and totally out of control. I'm so sad and regretful, and desperate to try anything that could possibly be helpful.

That's good to reflect on your idea and see what would work and what wouldn't. And it's good that you care about your D's pain. Many parents come here regretting past choices. It is hard to look back and think -- I would have done it so, so differently. One phrase you may come across here is "When we know better, we do better". We do the best we can in the moment with the information we have at the time. Now that you're here and learning and open to new ideas, there is hope for things to go differently, even though you can't change what brought you here.

Have you tried NEA-BPD's "Family Connections" program? From what I hear, it's a free weekly class designed for family members of pwBPD, to help build skills and tools for improving family life. They are a reputable program, and the link for the BPD/emotional dysregulation group is:

Family Connections™ - BPD/Emotion Dysregulation (ED)

Take a look, it may be a really good resource for you and your family.

[In4thewin]

On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being the lowest level of cooperation and/or motivation, my D is about a 2 in her willingness to collaborate or carry through with a deal concerning consequences, and about a 6 on motivation after HS. She's stuck in the "you deserve it" mode. I'm hoping for the best after HS but I think she's more focused on getting out of the house and being closer to her BF (who's already in college), rather than really committing to focusing on school or even just getting a job. There really wasn't any change after a year of DBT because she was just going through the motions. She didn't practice the skills or follow the program guidance at all. She's truly miserable but she still won't follow through with treatment recommendations! Her dysregulation is at it's worst with me, but in recent months it has reared it's ugly head with her BF as well, and I know he's growing weary although he truly cares for her. I am on the waiting list for that group you mentioned. I signed up a couple months ago.

[kells76]

On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being the lowest level of cooperation and/or motivation, my D is about a 2 in her willingness to collaborate or carry through with a deal concerning consequences, and about a 6 on motivation after HS. She's stuck in the "you deserve it" mode. I'm hoping for the best after HS but I think she's more focused on getting out of the house and being closer to her BF (who's already in college), rather than really committing to focusing on school or even just getting a job. There really wasn't any change after a year of DBT because she was just going through the motions. She didn't practice the skills or follow the program guidance at all. She's truly miserable but she still won't follow through with treatment recommendations! Her dysregulation is at it's worst with me, but in recent months it has reared it's ugly head with her BF as well, and I know he's growing weary although he truly cares for her. I am on the waiting list for that group you mentioned. I signed up a couple months ago.

OK, good to know that collaboration/cooperation isn't a great approach right now.

I think this goes back to your intuition -- there's a lot about her that you can't control, but you can control your responses to her behavior, so exiting the situation when she dysregulates on you may be the way to go.

Some members here have success with a calm/firm statement helping the pwBPD to know that you are not leaving forever: "I'm not able to be in the room when this language is happening. I will be back in [45 minutes, 1 hour... whatever time frame works best]". Do you think she would need that specific reassurance? Either way, it may help to articulate a time frame, because then it becomes something you can repeat if she tries to follow you/engage when you're taking a break: "Like I said before, I'm going to [walk the dog, get groceries], and I'll be back at the house in 45 minutes".

It can sometimes help to steer away from statements like "You need to calm down or I'm leaving" (not saying you're doing that!) as "you" statements can look like an open door to an argument with a pwBPD: "I'm calm, YOU'RE the one who isn't calm!" Keeping the focus off of "who is doing what, who is calm, who is swearing" and on the behavior itself may help keep the temperature from getting too high (as it were). You aren't talking about her and what she's doing or how she's feeling, you're just stating: the language is happening.

You could even see if flipping the statement around works better for your D: instead of "I'm not going to be around when this language is happening...", maybe "I am able to be around when there isn't yelling or cursing" -- kind of emphasizing a "reward" of attention. It'll probably take some trial and error and will be based on who your D is as a unique person.

...

It sounds like giving yourself a break from being her target may be very helpful in getting the two of you through the next six months. The more depleted you are from receiving verbal abuse, the less you can help yourself and her.

Can you remind me, are you in a relationship right now? If so, how is your partner doing with all this?

[In4thewin]

That sounds like great advice. I was already removing myself from the situation, but I think the nuanced change in my words to her could be very helpful. As is par for the course with BPD traits, she is very sensitive to being made to feel "wrong", especially about her feelings/emotions. Thank you! No... I'm not in a relationship, and I don't really have the inclination to be in one at this point anyway, although I'm definitely in need of more "community". I'm working on that though.

[Pook075]

That sounds like great advice. I was already removing myself from the situation, but I think the nuanced change in my words to her could be very helpful. As is par for the course with BPD traits, she is very sensitive to being made to feel "wrong", especially about her feelings/emotions. Thank you! No... I'm not in a relationship, and I don't really have the inclination to be in one at this point anyway, although I'm definitely in need of more "community". I'm working on that though.

In my experience with my BPD kid, it's setting a boundary combined with showing how much I care.  Remember that a boundary isn't meant to be punishment.  Instead, it's meant to be a self-protection step against bad or threatening behavior.

For example, if you startle a bear in the woods, you're not going to try to reason with the bear and explain why he shouldn't eat you.  Instead, you do whatever you can to protect yourself...not because you're mad at the bear...but because if you don't do something then you're probably in trouble.  The same applies here, it's about protecting yourself physically and mentally from unwanted (or dangerous) behavior.

If your daughter hates to be told she's wrong (and let's face it, who doesn't), then don't say it that way.  Instead, focus on love and compassion towards the source of her emotions and make sure it's known that the boundary is there to protect you and your feelings, not to punish her.  

For example, one of my boundaries with both my kids growing up was having Life360 (GPS tracking) installed and active so I'd always know where they were.  I made it very clear when I bought their phones, if it says location unknown, I'm cancelling the plan and I'll take your phone.  I didn't set that during an argument though- I said it up front and regularly enforced it.  If their location was turned off, I'd call them and say they had about 3 minutes to reappear on the map.  And they never once called my bluff, even though my older kid was full blown BPD/bi-polar.

In other words, have these conversations when your kid is regulated and open to conversation.  It's as simple as saying "These things hurt me and these rules are to protect me.  Hopefully you understand why they apply to everyone in this house."  This stuff should be as obvious as "the sky is blue" or "water is wet"...she has to know that if she crosses a certain line, there will be a pre-defined outcome that will be on her.  

What you want to avoid is trying to make new boundaries in the heat of the moment since it will come off like an ultimatum- if you don't stop, I'm calling the police.  You probably already know what type of response that would receive.  Hopefully that helps a little!

[StepMothering]

For example, one of my boundaries with both my kids growing up was having Life360 (GPS tracking) installed and active so I'd always know where they were.  I made it very clear when I bought their phones, if it says location unknown, I'm cancelling the plan and I'll take your phone.  I didn't set that during an argument though- I said it up front and regularly enforced it.  If their location was turned off, I'd call them and say they had about 3 minutes to reappear on the map.  And they never once called my bluff, even though my older kid was full blown BPD/bi-polar.

@Pook075
This just resonated with me. Since we pay for adult SDwBPD phone and car payment maybe we should dictate that we can put Life360 on her phone and tracking on her car so we can find her when she goes missing for days on end.

Usually by the time we find her she is in such a psychotic state that we feel like she needs to go to the hospital to be stabilized.

[Pook075]

@Pook075
This just resonated with me. Since we pay for adult SDwBPD phone and car payment maybe we should dictate that we can put Life360 on her phone and tracking on her car so we can find her when she goes missing for days on end.

Usually by the time we find her she is in such a psychotic state that we feel like she needs to go to the hospital to be stabilized.

That's exactly why I did it as well- my BPD kid would sometimes (on a whim) drive to a different state to meet someone she met online.  I explained that it was for our peace of mind to always be able to come straight to them if they were in trouble, and we've used it for that exact reason more times than I could count.

Just make sure to give the alternative as well- if that's not acceptable, then you can pay for your own phone and we won't bug you about it.  My adult daughters do pay for their phones now, but they're both still on my Life360 plan because it's nice to see where everyone is.  I'm thankful for that.

[StepMothering]

my BPD kid would sometimes (on a whim) drive to a different state to meet someone she met online.

This with us too.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders