Telling the kids

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hello I’ve gotten. Lots of great advice here. Been married 27 years. Kids 13 and 11. Marriage got very abusive in the past 3 years. Physically abusive in the last 2. Wife was demanding I move out and I finally crossed a line and I can’t take it anymore I’m done. Stbx and I met to discuss telling the kids and she took it all back. Dont divorce me I’m trapped in perimenopause and I’ll be devastated.

Now I need to tell the kids on my own. Then I will file the divorce and get a restraining order and spend time moving into a new place and ideally 50/50 custody. Daughters are 13 and 11. 13 yo keeps asking ‘why aren’t you divorced ‘. 11 yo is angry - why can’t you two just be kind to each other?

I am looking for advice on telling them and then all of a sudden their mom is out for a week or two and we’re into a new life and house half the time. It’s a lot. Thoughts please?

[AlleyOop23]

Hello I’ve gotten. Lots of great advice here. Been married 27 years. Kids 13 and 11. Marriage got very abusive in the past 3 years. Physically abusive in the last 2. Wife was demanding I move out and I finally crossed a line and I can’t take it anymore I’m done. Stbx and I met to discuss telling the kids and she took it all back. Dont divorce me I’m trapped in perimenopause and I’ll be devastated.

Now I need to tell the kids on my own. Then I will file the divorce and get a restraining order and spend time moving into a new place and ideally 50/50 custody. Daughters are 13 and 11. 13 yo keeps asking ‘why aren’t you divorced ‘. 11 yo is angry - why can’t you two just be kind to each other?

I am looking for advice on telling them and then all of a sudden their mom is out for a week or two and we’re into a new life and house half the time. It’s a lot. Thoughts please?

[Pook075]

Hello I’ve gotten. Lots of great advice here. Been married 27 years. Kids 13 and 11. Marriage got very abusive in the past 3 years. Physically abusive in the last 2. Wife was demanding I move out and I finally crossed a line and I can’t take it anymore I’m done. Stbx and I met to discuss telling the kids and she took it all back. Dont divorce me I’m trapped in perimenopause and I’ll be devastated.

Now I need to tell the kids on my own. Then I will file the divorce and get a restraining order and spend time moving into a new place and ideally 50/50 custody. Daughters are 13 and 11. 13 yo keeps asking ‘why aren’t you divorced ‘. 11 yo is angry - why can’t you two just be kind to each other?

I am looking for advice on telling them and then all of a sudden their mom is out for a week or two and we’re into a new life and house half the time. It’s a lot. Thoughts please?

Hey Alley!  Some practical advice from my experiences.

First, it is ultimately the kids who are hurt most in a divorce and they should always be the priority.  With that said though, if you're positive it's time to move on then you need to have the conversation.  Tell them the news and let them speak, let them share their opinions even if its negative.  Encourage counseling as well...it may be available through their school.

The conversation should focus on what's best for them.  You and mom aren't able to fix things and you can be better parents apart than together.  Be open and honest, without talking about the marriage or why it failed.

I want to say more, but honestly I got this very wrong in my separation because I allowed my own feelings to get in the way.  It's almost impossible not to so don't be too hard on yourself.  Just be there for the girls.

[livednlearned]

I got a lot wrong too and had to learn after the fact.

The most important thing I learned is that S11 cared about kid things. I cared about adult things.

If I could do it all over I would talk to a child psychologist and ask what to focus on. Get out of my own way.

For example, your kids will want to know if they have to carry their underwear in their backpack and haul their toothbrushes around.

Where will the xbox be? Mom's house or dad's.

Do they have to share a room at the new house or do they get their own.

What will their friend's think. They'll think about the kids at school whose parents are divorced and wonder if their lives will be like them.

Your instinct will probably be to say "Your mom and I love you very much" which, from their perspective, was probably not something they were even thinking about or worried about. Plus, you don't really get to say whether mom loves them, because that's between them and mom. Stick to how you feel.

It's ok to be honest that you have a lot to learn. You're figuring things out too and haven't been through this before so ask them to bear with you. You have so much love for them and you trust that.

Ask them if they have any questions.

Based on their ages, a lot of their distress may play out with peers.

I recommend letting the school's family specialist know. They're usually social workers. The one at my son's school was exceptional. She told him any time he felt mad he could come to her office and sit quietly, or play a game, or talk. Essentially, he had a free pass to leave any time he needed a break. Months after the separation my son hit a kid with a pencil in the chest. A very alarming thing given S11's personality. The family counselor invited him into her office and they talked, and she called it a cooling period until I could come pick him up.

Guidance counselors for the older kids can also work wonders. Many of them proctor tests so they have dual assignments. When my son was in middle school, his GC would come to the classroom and say, "S12 we have to administer this test again." Then the two of them would hang out in GC's office and talk.

If you can, and if you don't already, try to get them in to see a therapist. They have to process the anger so it doesn't fester and boil over.

You might be surprised by the talk you have with them. When I told my son, he said, "Does this mean we're having waffles for dinner?" A joke alluding to Calvin and Hobbes. Humor masks pain so I'm not saying it was a walk in the park, but he took it in stride.

The harder parts come after when the dust has settled and you begin to see the shape of coparenting. 

[zachira]

It will probably be a big relief for your children in some ways for you to tell them you are going through with the divorce. They have likely already felt very anxious about what their futures are going to look like hearing potential divorce mentioned either by their mother or you separately OR both of you when having a dispute on several occasions. What your children will want to know is how the divorce is going to affect them (like how custody will be shared) and be reassured that they are not responsible for the divorce. Younger children than yours can often feel that something is wrong with them and that they are the cause of the divorce. Older children are less likely to feel like they are the cause of the divorce, though it can still be important to reassure older children that they are not the cause of the divorce. Lastly, it is very important to reassure your children that you love them, which I think they already know. Therapy can be very helpful for children whose parents are getting a divorce, as it gives them a safe place to discuss things about the divorce that they do not feel comfortable talking about with either of their parents yet are important to process to move forward on transitioning into healthy adults capable of forming loving lasting intimate relationships with friends, family, and significant others. Your children are at the ages in which their developmental task is to do the work on becoming healthy adults. It is much harder to benefit from therapy later in life when the personality and psyche of a person are pretty much set in stone because the person is already biologically an adult.

[Skip]

tbx and I met to discuss telling the kids and she took it all back. Dont divorce me I’m trapped in perimenopause and I’ll be devastated.

Now I need to tell the kids on my own.

'Opp,

I would really recommend that you read this article about drama triangles.  You are going to face a wife who at times is a victim and at time a persecutor and you, yourself, will occupy both roles. https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Drama can be defused if you understand its construct. Defusing (or not inflaming) will be a very helpful tool.

Let's look at your wife being in denial about the divorce (which is likely why she is not ready to tell the kids). You two are in very different places. You have been grieving the marriage failure for months (denial. bargaining, depression, acknowledgment). It was a tough journey. Your wife just learned of it and her grieving is just starting - her first reaction was denial.

It might be helpful to read her reaction this way.

So how do you defuse?  Set up the appointment with the therapist to talk about how best to tell the kids, invite her, and tell her you really want to do right by everybody. Obviously its better to do it together.

She may blow you off, and then you go forward without her, but it will help to offer. It sets a tone for how to deal with each other during the divorce - bot in terms of offering to be fair and also in terms of moving forward if she balks. Maybe it will plant a seed with her for later.

Skip

[AlleyOop23]

Thank you everyone benefiting from the wisdom experience is amazing.

I tried getting her to plan talking to the kids. I realize I am dealing with someone whose emotional alignment and perspective. She suggested we go to
New York with one of our kids. Last week she forced me out of the house with threats of violence and false allegations. Then She took it back but wont agree she has a problem. I told her I was divorcing her because I can’t take the relentless criticism and after imploring me not to divorce her because she can’t take it leaned right back into nitpicking me. She hasnt said I love  you in 2 years. When we’re along together she can’t be anything but negative to me. We havent slept in the same bed in Almost a year. But yeah let’s fly to NY and see a show?

Oops im off topic. But we are not in a collaborative space.

[AlleyOop23]

I was texting my sibling and in the course of telling her “how I’m
Doing” my text turn into this list. And I don’t know how I’m going to do it all and not mess up my kids, my business and go broke.

Divorcing an abusive irrational and potentially dangerous spouse who doesn’t want a divorce and is spiraling and who demands unproductive emotional interaction almost daily while trying to consider kids emotions and well being, family and business finances, logistics of preparing a divorce and potentially protective order and restraining order and a move in secret, running a business, employee and client issues not to mention a bat mitzvah, I trip to NY by one kid , a trip WITH the other one to LA, trying to get some sleep
And just a little exercise is absolutely and completely the worst. There is no place to put my focus that isn’t part of the problem. And it’s feel like I am doing a PLEASE READty job of everything. 

[zachira]

How much of the feeling you have sometimes that you are doing a terrible job at everything is really about your wife's feelings about herself? Disordered people dump on other people how badly they feel about themselves. You have been your wife's target for how she feels about herself for many years now and in unbearably close contact with her, because you have been living with her most of the time and have children together. It takes time to separate what feelings are hers and what are yours AND to feel better. What are things your wife has said to you that are all about her and really have nothing to do with who you are? In what ways are you a very different person from your wife?
You have the respect of many members on this site for how you are facing what you are feeling so you can get divorced and have healthy alone time with your children.
Do you have any alone time to yourself when you can do things you enjoy or is it all so overwhelming right now that there is no time to relax?

[AlleyOop23]

I am so overwhelmed the only thing I’ve done is eliminate calls and divorce podcasts from my drive so I can just think about nothing.

[ForeverDad]

Your instinct will probably be to say "Your mom and I love you very much" which, from their perspective, was probably not something they were even thinking about or worried about. Plus, you don't really get to say whether mom loves them, because that's between them and mom. Stick to how you feel.

Our default nature is to be fair.  In relatively normal relationships, that's great.  In times like this, it can not only be awkward, but it can also be invalidating to the kids.  By equating their parents as equals in parenting, that very well could throw their senses of observations and conclusions into a tizzy.

Some here even reported their kids said something like "it's about time!"  However, much of your kids' reactions depend on how intensely they've been influenced by their mother.  Frankly, they haven't had a calm and stable home life for a long time if ever, so it's hard to predict their responses.  Whatever they think and feel, their loyalties will feel torn.

So how do you defuse?  Set up the appointment with the therapist to talk about how best to tell the kids, invite her, and tell her you really want to do right by everybody. Obviously its better to do it together.

She may blow you off, and then you go forward without her, but it will help to offer.

At the least having the therapist involved can help reduce outbursts on a local level.

[zondolit]

AlleyOop,

Telling the children about the divorce (mine are roughly the same ages at yours) was the hardest thing I've ever done.

The best practice is for both parents to tell the children together. My husband refused so I said to him: The children need to know about the divorce. I'd like us to both be there. I'd like us to tell them together. But if you will not, I will tell them by myself. He ultimately chose to join me.

zondolit

[Pook075]

I am so overwhelmed the only thing I’ve done is eliminate calls and divorce podcasts from my drive so I can just think about nothing.

Those divorce podcasts are not necessarily helpful since they are almost always from the "victim's side"....he did this or she did that, and now they're being petty and trying to take everything.  That's not the mindset you need here at all.

A more helpful mindset would be that we're splitting up, but we're committed towards still being great parents together.  That should be the goal because that's what benefits the kids the most.

Question- in your state, is there a waiting period before you can divorce?  Is there a court-filed separation?  It varies a lot by state and this could be a long process.  In my state, for example, we had to be separated for a year and then the no-fault court process has taken six months...that's technically the quick path.

[AlleyOop23]

And no there’s no delay here. If we agreed on everything for example we could write it all up and file it.

[EyesUp]

When we got to the point of telling the kids, I drafted an outline of talking points and had my atty send it to her atty.  She agreed to the points.

When we sat down with the kids, I let her take the lead. 

I did not jump in until she went off script, at which time I calmly asserted the correct statement.  She said "this house will be sold" even though we had stipulated that I would keep it.  That was the moment that our oldest burst into tears. 

I simply said, "kids, I will be keeping this house and I there is no plan to sell it. You will still have your rooms, and that's not going change" - It was an unplanned but effective way to demonstrate certain things to the kids...

My point is:  You may be able to tell the kids together, by anticipating and playing to your stbx's expected behavior.

- rehearse / draft / pre-align
- engage your attys as objective sounding boards and witnesses (makes it harder for your stbx to improv)
- try to get some terms of the separation in writing or stipulations if possible
- let your stbx deliver a lot of the message
- when/if she goes off script, be prepared to calmly assert the truth - on the spot, or immediately after, if needed

How would you advise a client in this situation.  I know this is tough to do, because I struggle to do it all the time:  Imagine that you are your own client.  As objectively as possible, what should you tell yourself to do?

[livednlearned]

What is your best guess for how things will go with your wife in terms of telling the kids together?

[ForeverDad]

Also, there is a possibility that after all your efforts to make it go smoothly that your spouse will later "reinterpret" what was discussed and try to influence the children to her new interpretation/storyline.

[GaGrl]

Also, there is a possibility that after all your efforts to make it go smoothly that your spouse will later "reinterpret" what was discussed and try to influence the children to her new interpretation/storyline.

So true. Take this into consideration as you tell the.

"The one thing that you need to remember, is that I love you and will always make decisions based on what is best for you in the long run."

[AlleyOop23]

This is a bit of a crosspost from one of my other threats. The issue I would like some support with is this. I have gotten my divorce papers ready and I have gotten a rented house ready. My ST BX is leaving on a girls trip for five days. While she is gone it is my intention to tell the kids what's going on without her, take them to the new place and also let her know that I have done all this. When she gets back she will be served with divorce papers and the restraining order and I'll be in the other house with the kids and if everything goes the way we hope to custody schedule already in place. My issue is the when I tell the kids and I take them to the other place and then I have them pack some of their stuff to start a new life in this new house where I live and they'll start going back and forth it is really going to throw them. They will know they are packing and doing something without their mother's permission. It will be extremely uncomfortable for them to follow my directions and not have their mom signing off on what I'm telling them to do. I'm really unsure how to get them through that. I'm also unsure how to help them give themselves any kind of permission to feel anything but completely uncomfortable having any kind of positive feelings about thiswhen I think they'll know that their mother is really not okay or not going to be okay with this. She this is something I can work on over time and coach that I think that will be okay. It's really just that day of having them pick up and how to put not weird :-) or a somber face on the whole thing but how to do it authentically. There physically abused father is having them move out of the house in secret. It's laughing weird it's not a normal experience it's not something most kids can relate to and is not really a manual on how to do this. So if anyone's got any thoughts on how to help a 13-year-old and 11-year-old girl's pack of half their stuff to go live at some new place when they lived in one house their entire lives and under their mother's thumb with respect to the stuff that they own and where I would this to hear from you please and thank you.

[EyesUp]

Alley,

It's great that you're carefully considering the impact on your kids.

When I went through this, I was at least able to align with my then-stbx that we needed to establish therapy for the kids before the transition was fully underway.  We agreed that we wanted additional support resources in place, so that the kids would have additional outlets for their inevitable confusion, feelings, etc.

Eventually, we agreed to stipulations and then told the kids together just prior to separation.  This gave the kids time to process.  It was helpful to them to know that they would keep the house and rooms that they knew, and to continue going to the same schools with the same friends, etc.

My perception from your post is that you're running into the challenge that comes from trying to make this work on a unilateral basis.  I know that you have good reason to avoid attempting to cooperate/collaborate with your stbx, however I'm not sure how to accomplish all the things you want/need into a single plan.

i.e., if you do this entirely without mom's participation and agreement, that's going to influence how she feels, how she communicates with the kids downstream, and ultimately how the kids feel about, well, everything.

I don't know your kids. That said, kids often know more than we think and there's a chance that they will receive this news and change well. There's also a chance that a 13yo and/or 11yo will feel like they are in a loyalty bind and immediately try to call mom...  Enforcing a radio silence policy starts to overtly put the kids into a bind and drifts in the direction of kidnapping your own kids.

Sorry if I come across as skeptical, but the plan you've described definitely has risk. Have you consulted your team (T, atty, other?) on this plan and timing?  Please remind me: Do the kids have a T?  

There are some good books on how to communicate with kids about divorce.  Please let me know if it would be helpful to post a few links.

[ForeverDad]

Even if they don't have therapists, highly recommended when there is long term parental conflict or discord, you could always consult the school counselors and gain their input.  At the least then they would know what's happening and help monitor how the kids are doing.

[Skip]

There's also a chance that a 13yo and/or 11yo will feel like they are in a loyalty bind and immediately try to call mom...  Enforcing a radio silence policy starts to overtly put the kids into a bind and drifts in the direction of kidnapping your own kids.

Sorry if I come across as skeptical, but the plan you've described definitely has risk. Have you consulted your team (T, atty, other?) on this plan and timing?  

Learning of the divorce will likely be devastating to them.

The possible downside here...

If you tell the, alone, mom could tell them that you are the one breaking up the family - that she didn't want it. That makes you the bad guy. You against everyone else who wants the familyu to stay together.

Taking the kids to the new house right after giving them the bad news may give them bad feeling about the new house and they might not want to return.

Blocking the call to mom, makes this more traumatic. Although, having them call mom will likely be traumatic too especially if mom freaks out.

These are all hard decisions...

[zachira]

Likely the children will have mixed feelings about the divorce. There may be some relief on their part as long as you explain exactly how shared custody will work, and reassure them you will do your best to do what is in their best interests. Your children have likely felt very unbalanced for a long time being unsure as to what is going to happen and if the instability in their home is going to continue. Your children will have some stability and safety when they are in your home AND this will surely be a relief at some point, perhaps as soon as they see that the plans are indeed being followed through.

[At Bay]

Stbex may be calling the kids while she is on her trip and even if they can hold in their emotions, her mom radar may discern trouble and coax it out of them. Show them the new, safe, calm place to be in the future, and If only you are moving before she returns, and not them, it might be easier when they talk to their mom.

Do you plan to meet at the police station, for example, for exchanges so that you are never alone with your wife again to prevent false DV charges against you. The police can standby at your or her home to finish moving.

My son and his wife are 5 days with mom and 5 days with dad, created by alternating Fri Sat Sundays. (Tacked onto the two days during the week each always has the kids either before or after the weekend to total 5 days in a row.) He always has them Mon and Tues. She always has them Wednes. Thurs. Then flip weekends. Make sense? Every other Fri Sat Sun he has them after they are there Mon Tues. She has them weekend after Wednes Thurs every other weekend. They have clothes both places and favorite foods. A new lovey did have to   be chosen after so many trips to bring the overlooked old ones. Forgotten items like schoolwork are left on the front porches to avoid unnecessary contact.

When you are away from your stbex, you will feel good again. That will help with everything else, I think. The law is on your side because of the emotional and physical abuse that needs to stop for everyone, including herself. Hopefully, she’ll put her energy into getting what she wants the right way with others watching her actions. Secrecy empowers them, I believe. Your children will see the difference and learn better ways to communicate, even if it is only you doing it right.

[ForeverDad]

"The walls have ears."  Yes, the kids may have been exposed and overheard far more than you think.  Some here remarked that their kids even asked, "What took you so long?" and looked forward to having some of their lives away from the discord, conflict and crazy making.

Yes, they can feel a loyalty bind but this is a step forward and change can often trigger a lot of "what ifs" and "how does this work".