Why can't I stop feeling like *I'm* the bad guy?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My husband of almost 9 years has BPD. We didn't know this until last year when he had a mental health crisis, but now I see the signs leading up to it. The love bombing, the cheating on dating/hookup sites for more than half of our marriage, scheduling at least two hookups that I know of (that didn't end up happening, although not for lack of trying), the emotional and mental manipulation that left me a husk of a person. But I didn't see any of it until he admitted to the cheating and his facade broke, dragging it all into the open along with suicide threats, attempts, overt emotional abuse, constant anxiety, and everything else that comes along with trying to keep someone alive while also trying not to disrupt your children. He started therapy but then fell in love with his therapist and tried to leave me for her, then decided therapy was all a lie when she dropped him as a client for ethical reasons. He "tests" me with cruel tests to see if I stick around and then blames me when I can't or calls me weak. Then he comes running back telling me it's all part of the push/pull. But never that he's sorry and never to really take accountability. There's always something that I did that *made* him do it.

He finally started researching his BPD and making strides to understand himself. He started treating me better, being loving again. I never had time to process the cheating with trying to keep him alive for over a year. Finally it all caught up to me and I realized I couldn't live with it, and I couldn't believe for a second that any of his loving actions were anything less than lovebombing or trying to keep me around so he isn't alone (at least until he finds someone else -- that's his MO). Maybe he's sincere, but I can't believe it would last. There's too much over too long that tells me it won't. So I told him I wanted our relationship to end.

But the weight he has dumped on me, making it my fault for deciding to leave. I'm cruel, I'm toying with him (I REALLY TRIED to get over it), he had this grand gesture planned for Valentine's Day, and my heart is just beat up and empty even though I know it's all fake. I just want all of this to be over but I don't have quite enough saved to leave yet and it's so expensive where I live (and I can't move due to my amazing job) that I have to find the right rental at the right time to make it work. I don't want to throw my kids into turmoil, I want the transition to be as seamless as possible.

Honestly, I wanted this to be a long post telling the whole story but I just don't have the energy for it. I feel like I'm the aggressor even though I know I'm just reasonably reacting to what he's done and it's really draining.

[CaffeinePlease]

My husband of almost 9 years has BPD. We didn't know this until last year when he had a mental health crisis, but now I see the signs leading up to it. The love bombing, the cheating on dating/hookup sites for more than half of our marriage, scheduling at least two hookups that I know of (that didn't end up happening, although not for lack of trying), the emotional and mental manipulation that left me a husk of a person. But I didn't see any of it until he admitted to the cheating and his facade broke, dragging it all into the open along with suicide threats, attempts, overt emotional abuse, constant anxiety, and everything else that comes along with trying to keep someone alive while also trying not to disrupt your children. He started therapy but then fell in love with his therapist and tried to leave me for her, then decided therapy was all a lie when she dropped him as a client for ethical reasons. He "tests" me with cruel tests to see if I stick around and then blames me when I can't or calls me weak. Then he comes running back telling me it's all part of the push/pull. But never that he's sorry and never to really take accountability. There's always something that I did that *made* him do it.

He finally started researching his BPD and making strides to understand himself. He started treating me better, being loving again. I never had time to process the cheating with trying to keep him alive for over a year. Finally it all caught up to me and I realized I couldn't live with it, and I couldn't believe for a second that any of his loving actions were anything less than lovebombing or trying to keep me around so he isn't alone (at least until he finds someone else -- that's his MO). Maybe he's sincere, but I can't believe it would last. There's too much over too long that tells me it won't. So I told him I wanted our relationship to end.

But the weight he has dumped on me, making it my fault for deciding to leave. I'm cruel, I'm toying with him (I REALLY TRIED to get over it), he had this grand gesture planned for Valentine's Day, and my heart is just beat up and empty even though I know it's all fake. I just want all of this to be over but I don't have quite enough saved to leave yet and it's so expensive where I live (and I can't move due to my amazing job) that I have to find the right rental at the right time to make it work. I don't want to throw my kids into turmoil, I want the transition to be as seamless as possible.

Honestly, I wanted this to be a long post telling the whole story but I just don't have the energy for it. I feel like I'm the aggressor even though I know I'm just reasonably reacting to what he's done and it's really draining.

[PeteWitsend]

I first started learning about BPD (on a different msg board) as I was struggling to understand exactly what the heck was going on in my marriage and wondering whether there was anything I could do to make it work, or if my wife was just totally unreasonable.

I mentioned that I felt like I was the one going crazy after some of our fights, and the same person that mentioned BPD to me, said it was notorious among psychologists for being "crazy making" or something like that... i.e. in relationships where one of the partners is a BPDer, it's typically the NON that goes in for therapy, wondering what the hell is going on all the of the sudden.

I think the way BPDers force everyone around them to be accountable for the BPDer's own behavior, and the fact that they really have no qualms about lying, "re-writing history" etc. whenever it suits them is a real double whammy... explains why we are or were often left feeling confused and if we might be the bad guy, when we know on a more basic level that we didn't do anything wrong.

[ChiWeenieGuy]

I experience the same thing with my pwBPD wife. So often, I come away from interactions with her thinking I must be the abusive one, I must be the one with a cluster B disorder, I must be the mean jerk, etc.. It's that gaslighting and subtle manipulation tactics. I'm finding I have to be really vigilant about it and that's hard. I think the effect of it is amplified if you are a naturally empathic, compassionate person because we tend to be more trusting and see the good in people and they can sense that which opens us up to either conscious or unconscious manipulation on their part. That's why the cluster B types are drawn to us.

[CaffeinePlease]

Apparently, he has also turned his family against me and told them that *I* am the manipulator and abuser. Which sucks because my only living family (brother) lives 5 hours away so now I have no one. I accidentally saw a text from his sister pop up on his watch while I was moving it and it was awful -- she is a DV survivor and always was so supportive to my face, to see all the horrible things she said was heartbreaking. She told him not to let me manipulate him.

I can't trust anyone. Honestly, the only people I trust are my best friend of 18 years, my brother, and my family law attorney friend. I want to take a break from social media but I don't want him to get the satisfaction of running me off.

I just want it all over. I want him to go away, but I don't.

[kells76]

Hi CaffeinePlease (great user name btw),

Yes, it can be common for people in a relationship with pwBPD to have the pwBPD's feelings "dumped" on them. Due to a weak or absent sense of self, pwBPD struggle to identify that their feelings come from inside of them, and aren't "made" to happen by external things or people. Imagine if you felt something uncomfortable, but didn't have the healthy thought process to be able to say "wow, I feel guilty right now; that is my feeling inside of me, and I can decide to keep feeling that, or to step away from feeling that and just observe and notice it". pwBPD don't seem naturally to have that ability, meaning a feeling of guilt may become overwhelming. So, they look for somewhere else to put it: "I have no skills to handle feeling guilty -- I have to unload this on whoever's around".

Recruiting negative advocates can also be common with what William Eddy calls "High Conflict People". Whether or not your H would meet his definition (Eddy says that while not all people with PDs are HCPs, all HCPs have a PD), the dynamic sounds similar:

HCPs persuade others to be “Negative Advocates” – usually family, friends or professionals who help in blaming the Target – which escalates their conflicts instead of helping them calm down to solve their problems. Negative Advocates are emotionally hooked by the intense fear and anger of the HCP, yet they are usually uninformed. When they hear about (or experience) the HCP’s extreme behavior, they often abandon the HCP, so that HCPs are constantly seeking new Negative Advocates. This ability to engage Negative Advocates enables High Conflict People to avoid confronting their own behavior, so that nothing changes and their “high-conflict” situations continue. Many people with personality disorders do not focus on a Target of Blame, so they don’t recruit Negative Advocates.

So, both the emotional "dumping" on you, and the recruitment of advocates for his perspective, are kind of par for the course for someone with unmanaged BPD. I'd call those expected behaviors, not atypical behaviors. If I were a betting person, I'd put my money on him probably continuing in those approaches, because that's how he tries gets some of his unmeetable emotional needs met.

When I stopped being surprised by how my H's kids' mom and stepdad behaved, that's when their behavior stopped jerking me around emotionally. Before that, every time they'd do something crazy (we have some... emails...), I'd feel angry, scared, stuck, enraged, and victimized. Radically accepting that they were who they were -- not "agreeing that what they did was ok" --  just accepting "well, there they go again, in their expected behavior", helped me get to a clearer headspace to be able to make my own decisions for moving forward, instead of spending my time reacting to their wackiness.

...

Another thought I'm having is around this:

But the weight he has dumped on me, making it my fault for deciding to leave. I'm cruel, I'm toying with him (I REALLY TRIED to get over it), he had this grand gesture planned for Valentine's Day, and my heart is just beat up and empty even though I know it's all fake. I just want all of this to be over but I don't have quite enough saved to leave yet and it's so expensive where I live (and I can't move due to my amazing job) that I have to find the right rental at the right time to make it work. I don't want to throw my kids into turmoil, I want the transition to be as seamless as possible.

Tell me a little more about that. When you mention that he made it your fault, what did that look like? Was that him saying some stuff?

By definition he has distorted thinking and feeling. What he says doesn't define you or reality.

...

Back to practical stuff. I think I read that you were considering leaving last August, too -- did I get that right?

How did things go between then and now?

How old are the kids? Are they his, yours, shared...?

We can walk with you through ending this relationship and moving on -- while it won't be easy, it is possible. It takes not only logistical work, but emotional work as well. This is one of the best places to do both  

Hope to hear more from you, whenever feels right;

kells76

[CaffeinePlease]

Hey, Kells76, thanks for asking. I don't have many people to talk to in my sphere and my therapist is on leave until March so it feels like I've got a lot of steam building up

Tell me a little more about that. When you mention that he made it your fault, what did that look like? Was that him saying some stuff?

He was railing on me for not getting over it or not giving him another chance to prove he could change, and when I held my ground that I refused to accept responsibility for the consequences of his actions, he threw back in my face that I was the one making the choice to leave, not him. I was the one breaking the vows and ruining the childrens' lives and being abusive and unreasonable.

And even though I know it isn't my fault in my head (I consider myself a rational and practical person) my emotions are so overpowering right now that it makes it so difficult to listen to what I know is true. I also have my own Fawn Trauma Response that I am fighting and that particular maladaptive trait has garnered me quite a bit of justified criticism as I have probably led him on more than I should have to keep the peace.

Back to practical stuff. I think I read that you were considering leaving last August, too -- did I get that right?

How did things go between then and now?

How old are the kids? Are they his, yours, shared...?

I couldn't do it. I wanted to, I made plans, but just before I pulled the plug I happened to catch a video of him dancing with our then-1-year-old. I thought about how I was depriving them of their dad and things were a little calmer at the time. We signed a new lease. Things went pretty well until he confessed his love for his therapist, tried to leave me for her, she dropped him as a client, and he spiraled out of control for awhile.

Our kids are 7 and 2. Both ours. He also has a 11 and 12 year old from his last relationship that he is currently awaiting a ruling re: court-ordered supervised possession on.

We can walk with you through ending this relationship and moving on -- while it won't be easy, it is possible. It takes not only logistical work, but emotional work as well. This is one of the best places to do both.

I really appreciate it. It feels like I'm screaming into a void most of the time. I actually work at a familiy law firm and while they can't represent me, my friend is helping me get everything together for a temporary restraining order and advising me to cut off contact since he gets in my head so easily. If I can do that, I think I'll be able to make it.

[kells76]

I don't have many people to talk to in my sphere and my therapist is on leave until March so it feels like I've got a lot of steam building up

It can be hard to talk about these situations with others, even friends or family, who haven't had to interact with a pwBPD. It's so unintuitive. Good to hear you have a therapist -- I know what it's like when you're just hanging on until the T returns!

He was railing on me for not getting over it or not giving him another chance to prove he could change, and when I held my ground that I refused to accept responsibility for the consequences of his actions, he threw back in my face that I was the one making the choice to leave, not him. I was the one breaking the vows and ruining the childrens' lives and being abusive and unreasonable.

And even though I know it isn't my fault in my head (I consider myself a rational and practical person) my emotions are so overpowering right now that it makes it so difficult to listen to what I know is true. I also have my own Fawn Trauma Response that I am fighting and that particular maladaptive trait has garnered me quite a bit of justified criticism as I have probably led him on more than I should have to keep the peace.

How long did his "railing on you" last?

When you "held your ground and refused to accept responsibility", was that verbal?

Even if the two of you don't stay together, I think there are definitely different approaches you can try here -- that are totally under your control, and don't require him to agree, think it's a good idea, participate, or cooperate -- that can turn down the emotional temperature. Again, whether you stay or go, having a less volatile home environment, and less volatile interactions, will be better for your sanity and for the kids.

I couldn't do it. I wanted to, I made plans, but just before I pulled the plug I happened to catch a video of him dancing with our then-1-year-old. I thought about how I was depriving them of their dad and things were a little calmer at the time. We signed a new lease. Things went pretty well until he confessed his love for his therapist, tried to leave me for her, she dropped him as a client, and he spiraled out of control for awhile.

Have you ever heard of the concept of FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt)? I believe it comes from the book "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward, and FOG describes those feelings we have in unhealthy dynamics that impact the choices we make. Our "vision" can be obscured by the "FOG". Curious if you were feeling guilt when you saw the video?

Our kids are 7 and 2. Both ours. He also has a 11 and 12 year old from his last relationship that he is currently awaiting a ruling re: court-ordered supervised possession on.

Is that for him to have supervised visitation with the kids? Or are the kids living with you guys, and the other parent is awaiting the ruling? Sorry if I missed something -- just getting a better idea of the logistics of your situation.

I really appreciate it. It feels like I'm screaming into a void most of the time. I actually work at a familiy law firm and while they can't represent me, my friend is helping me get everything together for a temporary restraining order and advising me to cut off contact since he gets in my head so easily. If I can do that, I think I'll be able to make it.

Pivoting our energy away from reacting to the pwBPD's unpredictability, and towards improving our own mental health, tools, and skills, is critical for making it through these intense relationships. I'm glad you have experienced friends walking with you -- it makes a huge difference. Do check out our library of tools and skills workships, too, and let us know which ones stood out to you or seemed like something you were ready to try.

Is the TRO a mutual or one-sided TRO? Are RO's standard in your area in a divorce? And does your friend know that your H has BPD traits and behaviors?

BPD adds volatility to any situation, and RO's can also escalate things. Have you explored other paths forward, too? Not saying one way is right and another is wrong, more acknowledging that you're in a complicated situation, and sometimes we have to make counterintuitive moves to achieve longer-term goals while avoiding blowups that impact the kids. A TRO could also fit your situation, it just depends.

[livednlearned]

I feel like I'm the aggressor even though I know I'm just reasonably reacting to what he's done and it's really draining.

What definition do you have for being an aggressor?

You mention having a fawn trauma response. Is there something else that makes you feel you're behaving in an aggressive way with your H?

[CaffeinePlease]

How long did his "railing on you" last?

When you "held your ground and refused to accept responsibility", was that verbal?

Several hours. He woke me up by taking my phone while I was sleeping at 4 AM and threw it in the back yard. I got it and went back to bed and when he started yelling at me, I ignored him primarily but then told him my decision to leave was a response to his choices (to consistently cheat).

Typically I don't escalate. I give calm responses or no response, typically to texts. I fall in the trap of trying to explain my thought process a lot but I never call names, throw things in his face, or raise my voice. Occasionally I will say something calmly but firmly, such as restating my boundaries or why I'm upset, but I don't instigate the fight. He will push and push and push to get any response (text me the same thing over and over, wake me up, ask me the same question and ignore anything else I say, cut himself

Have you ever heard of the concept of FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt)? I believe it comes from the book "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward, and FOG describes those feelings we have in unhealthy dynamics that impact the choices we make. Our "vision" can be obscured by the "FOG". Curious if you were feeling guilt when you saw the video?

I had never heard of that before but it definitely describes how I was feeling. I feel guilty for choosing a spouse poorly and forcing my children to go through this. It's my greatest failure as a person.

Is that for him to have supervised visitation with the kids? Or are the kids living with you guys, and the other parent is awaiting the ruling? Sorry if I missed something -- just getting a better idea of the logistics of your situation.

He had standard possession until last year when he acted erratically. Their mother had a TRO implemented, followed by a TO hearing when he was put under supervised possession, and the final ruling to have supervised possession extended indefinitely is pending.

Is the TRO a mutual or one-sided TRO? Are RO's standard in your area in a divorce? And does your friend know that your H has BPD traits and behaviors?

BPD adds volatility to any situation, and RO's can also escalate things. Have you explored other paths forward, too? Not saying one way is right and another is wrong, more acknowledging that you're in a complicated situation, and sometimes we have to make counterintuitive moves to achieve longer-term goals while avoiding blowups that impact the kids. A TRO could also fit your situation, it just depends.

TRO would not be mutual, against him only. ROs are typically for areas of domestic violence and abuse here. He does know about my H BPD traits, we've talked about it extensively. My biggest concern, and my friend's too, is that every time I set a boundary or express a desire to leave, he makes a suicidal threat or does some dramatic self-harm. I am TERRIFIED of my kids walking into a bloodbath or walking into the garage to find him swinging. I feel like a TRO is the only way to protect them from witnessing trauma. I can't sleep at night because he's up all night and I am afraid of what will happen when I take my eye off him (it helps that he's a truck driver and only home 3 days a week but those 3 days are hell).

I want to give him the chance to leave willingly but I am worried that telling him to leave will trigger something like this. Even if he's "better" as he claims, I am afraid for my kids.

[CaffeinePlease]

What definition do you have for being an aggressor?

You mention having a fawn trauma response. Is there something else that makes you feel you're behaving in an aggressive way with your H?

Being the aggressor as in I am the cause all of our problems. He's not getting his physical/emotional needs met, so he cheats. I am willing to make changes, just not "have a threesome or let me have a FWB or I'll cheat" or "you won't let me have a FWB so I'm miserable, you're so abusive."

I guess I feel aggressive because I am trying to be firm in my boundaries while not setting ultimatums. I typically state it clearly. I understand that he's in mental and emotional turmoil and upsetting him makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong.

[CaffeinePlease]

Also, the TRO is temporary -- temporary orders hearings have to occur within 28 days. So basically it protects us for up to 28 days until he gets a chance to go in front of the judge and either prove me wrong or have it put in place as official temporary orders.

Yes, it will escalate things dramatically. He did NOT take his ex doing it well, it was scary. It's a last resort for me but I don't know if he's capable of separating willingly or in such a way I don't have to worry about him doing something traumatic that the kids will witness.

[ForeverDad]

He woke me up by taking my phone while I was sleeping at 4 AM and threw it in the back yard. I got it and went back to bed and when he started yelling at me, I ignored him primarily but then told him my decision to leave was a response to his choices (to consistently cheat).

Typically I don't escalate. I give calm responses or no response, typically to texts. I fall in the trap of trying to explain my thought process a lot but I never call names, throw things in his face, or raise my voice. Occasionally I will say something calmly but firmly, such as restating my boundaries or why I'm upset, but I don't instigate the fight. He will push and push and push to get any response (text me the same thing over and over, wake me up, ask me the same question and ignore anything else I say, cut himself...

My ex too claimed to be a victim but what didn't make sense was that she was such an aggressive victim.  I couldn't even imagine how I, the relatively calm person, could have been "victimizing" her since she was striking out against me.

She would scream and yell, rant and rage, cut the cords to the computer mice, break keyboards and even once when furious with me she threw our son's computer into the garage so forcefully she bent the case and it had to be tossed.  Yet she felt she was the victim and insisted she was the victim.  Back then I didn't realize what was happening, it was before I came here, but it was really her Blaming and Blame Shifting her actions onto me.

Your spouse's aggressive actions prove false his claims that he's the poor helpless victim.  Period.  Believe that. Don't let him "gaslight" you into reversing your roles.  (Have you watched the movie Gaslight?  While the movie didn't deal with aggressiveness much, more with subtle ways to make the real victim doubt her own sanity, it depicts how insidious that Blame Shifting can be, even bordering on being criminal.)

I will add that historically infidelity has always been a basis to end a relationship.  If he wants to blame you for his own infidelity, that's his choice; your choice is to get off his bandwagon and not ride along any more.

I want to give him the chance to leave willingly but I am worried that telling him to leave will trigger something like this. Even if he's "better" as he claims, I am afraid for my kids.

His ex already has him limited to supervised status.  Whether that should continue is his problem.  Do not defend him in any way.  Let him deal with his consequences.  After all, you're pondering (planning?) taking similar action for yourself, to protect yourself and your own two children.

[boundriesrus]

Im so sorry you are having to go through this. I know it's a lot to deal with, and that you have children int he mix and that makes the decision that more complicated. I am in the same boat with my wife. Currently in couples counseling, not to save the marriage, but to help have a therapist see what I have seen the past decade in terms of behavior. More importantly I am actively trying to get the therapist to help her see that there is something else going on, that her actions are causing most of these issues she talks about. I want her to continue to be a decent parent (she has some room for improvement, for sure) but I am not trying to get her locked up or anything like that. I want her to get help, in order to stop the crazy cycle of crap, like her parents put her throw. I wish I could say all her behaviors towards our child are normal...but obviously I wouldn't be here if everything was "fine".

Short answer, do what you gotta do for yourself. Your kids may not understand it for years. I just turned 40 and have now realized (after 2-3 years of trauma therapy) that my mom was the abuser in the relationship against my father (who himself was raised by a BPD mother, and "caregiver" father....aka enabler), my father ended up being the same way, and me as well, but I am at least seeing the cycle of behavior and trying to put a stop to it. It's gonna screw things up for a while, but know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. It may be a far distance away, but fight your way to get there, knowing that when you do, you can truly be at peace, and that is a great example for your children. I wish you the best of luck and take solace in this site...you are not alone.

[CaffeinePlease]

I told him last night that I was absolutely, completely done. I said this kindly. Apparently he cried for hours and I feel like the biggest piece of crap human that ever walked this planet. Even though my logical mind knows he didn't care about all the times I stayed up all night crying, or even all the time I spent crying today feeling like I did the wrong thing. He said again that it's my fault and I'm gaslighting him to make it his fault.

I'm scared to go home and take the kids home. He made a vague suicidal threat ("Why shouldn't I hang myself when no one wants me?") I feel like I put a gun to his head and even though I know his actions are his choices, I can't help but feel responsible. And what if the kids turn against me someday and never forgive me? I've done such a good job shielding them that they don't even know anything's wrong -- one day Daddy will just be gone, either with custody or something more insidious. What if my very sensitive son ends up with BPD? That would absolutely kill me.

I have to file this. I have to cut contact because trying to be kind and supportive to the degree I can is going to end up eroding what is left of my sanity.

Someone else posted that BPDs are a very aggressive victim. That is exactly what it feels like.

[CaffeinePlease]

fight your way to get there, knowing that when you do, you can truly be at peace, and that is a great example for your children.

That's the reason I have to do it. When I'm tempted to give in (and I do want to even after what I've been called today, it's insane), I imagine the roles were different and it was my daughter going through this. I wouldn't hesitate to pack up her stuff and bring her to live with me, helping her cut off contact and get away. There wouldn't even be a question.

I don't have anyone to do that for me. My mom killed herself when I was 23. I have to do it myself, with the tools I have at my disposal, even though it feels cruel.

[kells76]

I'm scared to go home and take the kids home.

That's understandable -- there's a lot going on.

What are some options for today/tonight? Stay with friends, relatives, neighbors, church acquaintances, kids' friends' families, motel...?

Have you contacted a local DV hotline yet? They may know of resources for parents in your position.

The national hotline offers phone, text, and web chat, and may be able to research local options for you, too. It's always worth it to connect -- it doesn't mean you "have to" do anything they suggest. Just to get information.

This is difficult stuff.

[CaffeinePlease]

What are some options for today/tonight? Stay with friends, relatives, neighbors, church acquaintances, kids' friends' families, motel...?

Have you contacted a local DV hotline yet? They may know of resources for parents in your position.

I have a few contingency plans. I don't have anyone guaranteed to stay with anymore -- his sister had set us up to stay with HER father in law in an emergency but now that she has either turned on me or is completely two faced, I can't count on that. I have emergency money. I am going to go home since he already picked up our son from school (no order preventing him yet, I was hoping he wouldn't), and gauge things from there. If he starts acting erratic tonight I will take them and go. I have a few acquaintences or work friends I can reach out to or we'll sleep in the car at Walmart if we have to.

I haven't contacted them directly. I know I have resources that many people don't, even if it isn't easy. I don't like to tie things up for them.

[kells76]

If he starts acting erratic tonight I will take them and go. I have a few acquaintences or work friends I can reach out

Good to have a plan

I haven't contacted them directly. I know I have resources that many people don't, even if it isn't easy. I don't like to tie things up for them.

Might be worth considering if that is distorted thinking? I say that as a person who also struggles with a minimizing mindset ("it's not as bad as other people's situations" or "I'm not sick enough to bother the doctor").

Let us know how tonight goes 

[boundriesrus]

That's the reason I have to do it. When I'm tempted to give in (and I do want to even after what I've been called today, it's insane), I imagine the roles were different and it was my daughter going through this. I wouldn't hesitate to pack up her stuff and bring her to live with me, helping her cut off contact and get away. There wouldn't even be a question.

I don't have anyone to do that for me. My mom killed herself when I was 23. I have to do it myself, with the tools I have at my disposal, even though it feels cruel.

I know you can do it! It takes great strength! Currently I am fighting my ex biz partners in court (one diagnosed ASPD/NPD who loves guns and his wife BPD-Petulant) and am now about to have to fight my wife to get into therapy and to shield my child from this as much as possible, So battling legally 3 different PD's...all just to survive. I get your fear, but you have most likely also been conditioned to feel bad for your spouse, because if your marriage was anything like mine, it feels more like a trauma bond, vs what a true relationship should feel like. Trust your gut feelings. Trust a therapist. Im very sorry to hear that about your mother. Think of today as the day you start new. Sometimes you gotta just rip that band aid off, knowing it's gonna hurt real bad, but in the long run, you can't leave it there for ever. If you have not consulted a lawyer yet, please do. Explore your options legally, as that will be the playing field you have to play this guy on. Get a level headed divorce attorney, don't hire someone who LOVES to talk, as that will just get expensive and honestly two individuals who know how to "word salad" people, is not going to get resolution quickly. Have a go bag ready for you and the kids, whenever the time has to come, along with a possible burner phone, in case he can find your location via that way. You have to be a few steps ahead of them. Assume he is already going thru emails, texts and things like that. Misdirection is a very powerful tool, when you know how to use it correctly. You got this!

[CaffeinePlease]

Let us know how tonight goes

It didn't. I decided to talk to my aunt and uncle first since they're kind of my "parents" since mine are gone. H made me feel terrible *again* and I couldn't go through with it.

After I talked to them, I was more determined. I meant to do it Saturday night and even sent him a text requesting he go minimal contact with me and willingly stay somewhere else so I could clear the guilt of blindsiding him without giving him the choice. He refused. I got ready to submit and chickened out. Same Sunday. There were some changes I wanted to make to the petition and put it off. Then he spent the whole night blowing up my phone and having his sister blow up my phone for not answering him AND I WAS JUST SLEEPING. Why wouldn't I be asleep at 1 AM when I had an early morning???

Today he has tried to win me back while also heaping it on me saying he only cheated because "his needs weren't met." Bruh, at least use anything other than that ancient line. I have been busy but tonight I am *determined* to text him and tell him there is no way I will ever reconcile and file my paperwork. There are a couple of last minute suggestions my friend mentioned because I'm terrified of him getting unsupervised visitation in the next few years and me not being there to keep the kids safe.

Honestly that alone makes me stay my hand more than anything. He's a good enough liar to pull it off.

I get your fear, but you have most likely also been conditioned to feel bad for your spouse, because if your marriage was anything like mine, it feels more like a trauma bond, vs what a true relationship should feel like.

That is the crux of the matter, I think. I am conditioned to take his blame and feel bad for him. I did it for years every time he made me feel personally responsible because I said we couldn't afford a car or I didn't want to get a bird or Great Dane or something (that I would have to primarily take care of). I was always ruining his life.

Trauma bonds are strong. Even now that I'm angry as hell I can't break it and just get this done. Plus I'm afraid of him having unsupervised access at some point.

[CaffeinePlease]

Well... I told him I was 100% done and there was nothing to undo it. He is begging, agreeing to go to rehab and see counselors and everything else he should have done AGES ago. I. Do. Not. Want. To. Reconcile. I want to get away and choose my own paint colors and furniture and not have to clean up after dogs I hate and not have to wonder if I'm being cheated on every day and every time we fight. But having a unified family if he gets himself together would be better for the kids. Our son is very sensitive and the last thing I want is to inevitably give him BPD by causing abandonment issues.

I told him he has to stay somewhere else while we work on it and he hasn't responded.

[CaffeinePlease]

I filed the TRO. Just waiting for the judge to sign it.

H is supposed to get home tomorrow. I'm nervous how this will go.

[kells76]

Hey CaffeinePlease, thanks for filling us in -- you're juggling a lot.

First things first:

I filed the TRO. Just waiting for the judge to sign it.

H is supposed to get home tomorrow. I'm nervous how this will go.

Will your H be served at some point? If so, do you know when/where?

...

There are some unintuitive ways to interact with pwBPD that we don't always think of right away, yet it can be so important in high intensity situations for us to use good tools and skills. This can help "keep the temperature down", not because we're placating, appeasing, walking on eggshells, etc, but because keeping things low-intensity and low-hostility is (a) better for the kids, and (b) on us as the "non", as the pwBPD likely won't be able to use helpful tools and skills when in an emotionally intense situation (like TRO/separation/divorce).

After I talked to them, I was more determined. I meant to do it Saturday night and even sent him a text requesting he go minimal contact with me and willingly stay somewhere else so I could clear the guilt of blindsiding him without giving him the choice. He refused. I got ready to submit and chickened out. Same Sunday. There were some changes I wanted to make to the petition and put it off. Then he spent the whole night blowing up my phone and having his sister blow up my phone for not answering him AND I WAS JUST SLEEPING. Why wouldn't I be asleep at 1 AM when I had an early morning???

Couple of ideas for this situation. One is that it can be easier to assume that he won't cooperate with anything, and then be pleasantly surprised if he does, than to communicate things to him where you desire or require his cooperation, and you're left frustrated by stonewalling/foot-dragging/arguments.

If you need space from him during the TRO/separation/divorce, it's important to figure out a way to get that without needing to work with him. My guess is either it's working the legal angle and legally requesting full possession of the home first, or you temporarily packing up what you need for you & the kids, and staying elsewhere until the home ownership situation gets ironed out. I'm glad you have your aunt and uncle to lean on; support is so important.

You may need to block his number when you go to sleep and unblock it when you wake up. Same with his sister's number. If he hasn't been respectful before, a high-intensity situation isn't when he's going to start. Boundaries are rules you have for yourself, that are 100% under your control. Telling him not to text you between 8pm and 6am isn't a boundary; blocking him and his sister from 8pm to 6am is  

Today he has tried to win me back while also heaping it on me saying he only cheated because "his needs weren't met." Bruh, at least use anything other than that ancient line. I have been busy but tonight I am *determined* to text him and tell him there is no way I will ever reconcile and file my paperwork. There are a couple of last minute suggestions my friend mentioned because I'm terrified of him getting unsupervised visitation in the next few years and me not being there to keep the kids safe.

Honestly that alone makes me stay my hand more than anything. He's a good enough liar to pull it off.

He's going to say all kinds of things and his emotions are going to be one of those roller coasters with the full 360 loop -- unless he's working with you about kid stuff, you don't have to engage and any energy you give to being frustrated with his narratives is energy not going towards you and the kids.

Spending time listening to him (was this a phone call, in person, text, other?) isn't a great use of time right now. And, if you have decided for yourself to end the relationship, you don't need to tell him you aren't going to reconcile. Unless you haven't yet? In which case, one brief text or email should be enough: "Hi Mr CaffeinePlease; I am done with the marriage and am doing XYZ. I am not willing to reconcile. I will respond to communication about the kids; they are healthy and safe. Sincerely, Ms CaffeinePlease". You can consider adding: "I do not plan to read or listen to any other communications about any other topic except those sent to my lawyer." (Notice that that's a boundary -- it's under your control -- vs saying something like "please send emails to my lawyer" which is a request, not a boundary).

That is the crux of the matter, I think. I am conditioned to take his blame and feel bad for him. I did it for years every time he made me feel personally responsible because I said we couldn't afford a car or I didn't want to get a bird or Great Dane or something (that I would have to primarily take care of). I was always ruining his life.

Trauma bonds are strong. Even now that I'm angry as hell I can't break it and just get this done. Plus I'm afraid of him having unsupervised access at some point.

I've mentioned this to other parents here, too -- there are going to be two big strands going on for you right now. One is logistical -- unwinding the relationship, the legal side of things, divorce, etc. The other is your emotions -- your anger, your fear, your processing, your grief.

Both are necessary to move forward. But crossing one strand into the other can make you less effective. The more you can process your anger and grief with a counselor, and keep legal meetings to legal/logistical topics, the better. Lawyers make bad (and expensive!) therapists. Therapists don't always know the ins and outs of the judges and courtrooms in your area.

It's OK to be angry -- work with a counselor to process that -- and, don't let it obscure your vision for outcomes. Outcome based thinking is long term, managed emotions, what's ultimately good for the kids.

...

The fears about unsupervised time with the kids -- there's both the legal side and the emotional side.

Legally, what is boilerplate in your area? Based on the documentation you have, have you gotten any legal opinions suggesting that things wouldn't be boilerplate?

Emotionally, what are you afraid would happen?

[CaffeinePlease]

Will your H be served at some point? If so, do you know when/where?

Yes, I will email him the signed documents once they are processed and he will be served by a process server officially afterwards. I am not sure where he will be so that may be difficult.

There are some unintuitive ways to interact with pwBPD that we don't always think of right away, yet it can be so important in high intensity situations for us to use good tools and skills.

I am going over these things to help. I am AWFUL at JADEing. I hate being misunderstood and having my intentions questioned. It is not in my nature to hurt people and the suggestion that I have wronged someone breaks my heart. I will either fall into the trap of trying to explain my reasoning or just give in because I must have been wrong.

Couple of ideas for this situation. One is that it can be easier to assume that he won't cooperate with anything, and then be pleasantly surprised if he does, than to communicate things to him where you desire or require his cooperation, and you're left frustrated by stonewalling/foot-dragging/arguments.

If you need space from him during the TRO/separation/divorce, it's important to figure out a way to get that without needing to work with him. My guess is either it's working the legal angle and legally requesting full possession of the home first, or you temporarily packing up what you need for you & the kids, and staying elsewhere until the home ownership situation gets ironed out. I'm glad you have your aunt and uncle to lean on; support is so important.

You may need to block his number when you go to sleep and unblock it when you wake up. Same with his sister's number. If he hasn't been respectful before, a high-intensity situation isn't when he's going to start. Boundaries are rules you have for yourself, that are 100% under your control. Telling him not to text you between 8pm and 6am isn't a boundary; blocking him and his sister from 8pm to 6am is  Doing the right thing

He's going to say all kinds of things and his emotions are going to be one of those roller coasters with the full 360 loop -- unless he's working with you about kid stuff, you don't have to engage and any energy you give to being frustrated with his narratives is energy not going towards you and the kids.

Spending time listening to him (was this a phone call, in person, text, other?) isn't a great use of time right now. And, if you have decided for yourself to end the relationship, you don't need to tell him you aren't going to reconcile. Unless you haven't yet? In which case, one brief text or email should be enough: "Hi Mr CaffeinePlease; I am done with the marriage and am doing XYZ. I am not willing to reconcile. I will respond to communication about the kids; they are healthy and safe. Sincerely, Ms CaffeinePlease". You can consider adding: "I do not plan to read or listen to any other communications about any other topic except those sent to my lawyer." (Notice that that's a boundary -- it's under your control -- vs saying something like "please send emails to my lawyer" which is a request, not a boundary).

I am going to try to set boundaries. He typically doesn't respect them. For example, after I told him last night that I was done and wouldn't go back and forth about it, he started blowing up my phone. I told him clearly to stop because I was putting the kids to bed and he wouldn't stop. This is a frequent tactic, he will call until I answer. But that time I blocked him so I could focus on the kids. Then later I made the mistake of answering and he was crying and making all these promises, which broke me.

The fears about unsupervised time with the kids -- there's both the legal side and the emotional side.

Legally, what is boilerplate in your area? Based on the documentation you have, have you gotten any legal opinions suggesting that things wouldn't be boilerplate?

Emotionally, what are you afraid would happen?

My friend (a highly regarded family law attorney) helped me make some changes to my amended petition that will hopefully prevent him getting them back unsupervised without legitimate improvement. I don't fully understand it but my friend does and has had a lot of clients with this issue before so I trust his judgment.

Emotionally, I'm afraid he would have a bad night and they would witness something without me there, even if it had been awhile. He does make efforts not to emotionally disregard them but still has the issues with instability. Also, unrelated, I worry about his lifestyle -- if he has multiple girlfriends living with him (part of our marital issues came about because he decided he wanted to be polyamorous or have an open relationship) or if he invites hookups over while the kids are there.

[kells76]

Yes, I will email him the signed documents once they are processed and he will be served by a process server officially afterwards. I am not sure where he will be so that may be difficult.

My H didn't have to use a process server when divorcing his kids' mom, so I don't have any of his experience to share; I'm hoping other members can chime in. I am curious if you can work together with the server to ensure your H is served somewhere as safe but also as low-shame as possible? Again -- that's not to be placating him, more to be realistic that if he's coping with BPD, then high-shame scenarios may be very destabilizing to him, and therefore not conducive to what's good for the kids.

High-shame might be workplace, public, church, etc (high visibility places), but it depends on him. Those can also be higher safety for you. Maybe ideal is having him served at home when you and the kids are guaranteed not to be there for a weekend. Can you work with the server to set up something like that?

I am going over these things to help. I am AWFUL at JADEing. I hate being misunderstood and having my intentions questioned. It is not in my nature to hurt people and the suggestion that I have wronged someone breaks my heart. I will either fall into the trap of trying to explain my reasoning or just give in because I must have been wrong.

When we interact with "generally normal" people, explaining ourselves, offering context, and "clarifying" will generally deescalate things and bring about understanding, so both parties can move forward.

You and I have both found out that that's not the case with pwBPD. JADE-ing adds fuel to the fire and, like you recognized, traps you into a moment of reactivity (instead of you being free to focus on long term outcomes for you and the kids).

If he's struggling with BPD then he probably doesn't see you the way you see yourself, and he will misunderstand you as he seeks to find external "reasons" for his internal emotions.

If you're at the start of practicing not JADE-ing, it won't feel intuitive, and, like you said, may feel vulnerable: "I can't just let him think that about me!"

It's important to remember that we were never able to control what others thought about us. We can be OK in and of ourselves, even if others out there think all kinds of awful things about us. They don't define the reality of us.

When you find yourself wanting to JADE, I wonder if a helpful move would be the "buying some time" move -- you don't have to argue, react, explain, etc, and you don't have to come up with a big "thing to do instead", just: "huh... I'll have to think about that". Or: "that's a lot to think about. I'll get back to you later." Or: "Wow -- I'm going to take some time to process what you brought up." Or: "It sounds like a big deal. I'll think about it while I go on a walk." My favorite is: "That sounds really important to you, so I'm going to give it the time and thought it deserves. I don't have a decision about it now." (though that last one is bordering on too long).

Do you think giving yourself a moment could be workable, as you start changing habits?

I am going to try to set boundaries. He typically doesn't respect them. For example, after I told him last night that I was done and wouldn't go back and forth about it, he started blowing up my phone. I told him clearly to stop because I was putting the kids to bed and he wouldn't stop. This is a frequent tactic, he will call until I answer. But that time I blocked him so I could focus on the kids. Then later I made the mistake of answering and he was crying and making all these promises, which broke me.

Weirdly, boundaries are both easier and harder than "him not respecting them." True boundaries, fortunately, don't require him to respect them, follow them, agree with them, or cooperate with you about them -- you don't need him to do anything, or not do anything, for you to have a true boundary (which is great, because cooperating with an uncooperative BPD is challenging)!

Boundaries are for your protection and are things you can do no matter if he "respects" them or not. There won't be anything he can do to "disrespect" a true boundary. For example, telling someone to stop calling isn't a true boundary... because we can't control that (as you found  ). Explanations also aren't true boundaries. Saying you won't go into it with him isn't a boundary.

I bring all this up because pwBPD don't really respond to our words, desires, requests, or statements. What "communicates" to a pwBPD are our actions.

What he learned by blowing up your phone is that that's what it takes to get an answer -- if he calls enough (if he pushes that broken elevator button enough) he'll get the results he wants. Don't sweat this too much -- we've all been there where we accidentally use "intermittent reinforcement". Like we say here, it's not intuitive. The great thing is that today is a new day to practice sitting with the discomfort of respecting your own boundary. Not easy -- but you can do it! 

My friend (a highly regarded family law attorney) helped me make some changes to my amended petition that will hopefully prevent him getting them back unsupervised without legitimate improvement. I don't fully understand it but my friend does and has had a lot of clients with this issue before so I trust his judgment.

Does it look like some kind of step-up plan? I.e. "Dad starts at 4 hours every other Saturday at Supervision Center. After 3 months, if Dad has attended every supervised visit, plus completed anger management and a parenting class with signoff by Counseling Center, Dad shall have every Wednesday from 4-7 pm plus every other Saturday from 12-4pm. Dad shall stay in counseling at minimum of once every other week during that time. After 3 months of that, if Dad has attended all counseling appointments and the counselor signs off on this, Dad shall have every Wednesday 4-7pm plus every other Friday 4pm to Saturday 7pm. To maintain this schedule, Dad must attend counseling at minimum once a month, with counselor signoff available for Ms CaffeinePlease's lawyer for confirmation".

That is kind of the idea -- supervised visitation is not a long term plan. Typically there is either stepping the parent up via cooperation with classes/intervention, or stuff gets much worse (TPR, zero visitation, etc).

What's the gist of yours?

Emotionally, I'm afraid he would have a bad night and they would witness something without me there, even if it had been awhile. He does make efforts not to emotionally disregard them but still has the issues with instability. Also, unrelated, I worry about his lifestyle -- if he has multiple girlfriends living with him (part of our marital issues came about because he decided he wanted to be polyamorous or have an open relationship) or if he invites hookups over while the kids are there.

It's understandable to be scared of that happening 

Is there a clause in your parenting plan about "no overnight adult visitors"? That can be pretty standard to add.

[ForeverDad]

In case it hasn't been explained before now... A TRO petition is considered ex parte, that is, a one-sided petition.  Probably there will be a hearing scheduled in a couple weeks or so for both parties to appear in court and present their cases to the judge.

Be careful during the entire time the TRO is in force that you do not violate the terms requested.  The TPO is there for your protection, don't weaken it.  The reality is that "fairness" does not apply in court.  We here in peer support are know for our "fairness" traits, generally to be commended but such fairness or niceness can easily incline us to sabotage ourselves in difficult cases like ours.  "Let your eye not feel sorry" if/when your ex faces consequences.

Repeat... Stick to the terms of the TPO.  If ex begs exceptions, that is for the court to decide, you stick to the terms of the TPO unless otherwise advised.

[CaffeinePlease]

Maybe ideal is having him served at home when you and the kids are guaranteed not to be there for a weekend. Can you work with the server to set up something like that?

I'll talk to the process server. The one I am going to use has a long-term relationship working with the firm I am with, so she may be more flexible.

When we interact with "generally normal" people, explaining ourselves, offering context, and "clarifying" will generally deescalate things and bring about understanding, so both parties can move forward.

That makes a lot of sense. I think that's been sitting in the back of my head for a long time that in any other situation, it helps turn down the temperature, not throw fuel on it.

Do you think giving yourself a moment could be workable, as you start changing habits?

I have tried this in the past, not because I knew about JADE at the time, but because I do typically like to take time to think things through, and he is very pushy. He doesn't like to give space to determine an answer. By text, he will continue to send walls of text that I either choose not to respond to (garnering accusations) or I never get the time to really consider the original topic in the flurry.

What he learned by blowing up your phone is that that's what it takes to get an answer -- if he calls enough (if he pushes that broken elevator button enough) he'll get the results he wants. Don't sweat this too much -- we've all been there where we accidentally use "intermittent reinforcement". Like we say here, it's not intuitive. The great thing is that today is a new day to practice sitting with the discomfort of respecting your own boundary. Not easy -- but you can do it!

I am working on not responding immediately if I am doing something else or not responding to what looks to be the seeds of an argument. I am trying to be cogizant of not developing my own maladaptive traits, though. I don't want a boundary to become stonewalling -- I don't want to become part of the problem and it looks like that's a narrow line to walk sometimes.

Quote from: CaffeinePlease on February 13, 2024, 04:58:01 PM
My friend (a highly regarded family law attorney) helped me make some changes to my amended petition that will hopefully prevent him getting them back unsupervised without legitimate improvement. I don't fully understand it but my friend does and has had a lot of clients with this issue before so I trust his judgment.

Does it look like some kind of step-up plan?

What's the gist of yours?

I didn't request a step-up plan because officially I don't have a lawyer and it would be difficult to enforce. My friend is helping me but not my official attorney because it would be a conflict. At this time, it's supervised visitation until a psychological analysis determines he is no longer a danger to himself. There will be additional details later, as we proceed. The judge may have to make the final decision if we can't agree.

Is there a clause in your parenting plan about "no overnight adult visitors"? That can be pretty standard to add.

That will be added when we get that far -- it's part of our county's standing orders, so even if he were to somehow have unsupervised visitation while the case is pending, he is not allowed to have anyone over.

[CaffeinePlease]

Repeat... Stick to the terms of the TPO.  If ex begs exceptions, that is for the court to decide, you stick to the terms of the TPO unless otherwise advised.

Thank you for that reminder. I am afraid I am going to be really tempted to give in but it may be necessary for me to cut all contact until otherwise noted. If that happens, it happens.

[CaffeinePlease]

Done.

TRO is signed and I sent it to him. Service pending, he is currently on the road and won't be available.

I decided to cut off all communication leading up to the hearing so I am not tempted or guilted into putting myself into an unfavorable position. Anyone who tries to tell me otherwise will also be cut off, temporarily at least.

I am thinking about leaving work early so I can grab my go bag ahead of time in case he decides to go to the house.

[livednlearned]

You can also call law enforcement to do domestic assistance. They do it often.

In my case they met me near our house then escorted me into the home. They gave me 20 minutes to gather my things (versus marital property).

For their own safety and yours they'll want to know if there are guns in the house.

I recommend reading the chapter on TROs in Gavin de Becker's book The Gift of Safety. It may help you understand why following your own order is so important.

Undermining it can weaken how the system views your own perspective on your own safety, and will adjust accordingly.

If you are worried about undermining yourself, is there someone you can call to get a gut check before you act?