Coping with alienation while conflicted about divorce

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Mod note: split off from thread Don't Know If I Can Keep Doing This

Also you are right about the alienation. It is working to some degree on my oldest, but very minor so far, but the seeds are being planted. I think in a D it would escalate. I have made it clear it is unacceptable and illegal:

"Daddy why did you take our soup to work so we couldn't have it" - I hadn't
"Granny can't come and stay she throws all our toys away" - About my mother. She has never thrown their toys away


Also telling my son if I ask about something not to tell me about it. etc etc..

My reaction to this is to be very clear. "Son that is not true I did not take the soup, I had a sandwich for lunch"

[CravingPeace]

Mod note: split off from thread Don't Know If I Can Keep Doing This

Also you are right about the alienation. It is working to some degree on my oldest, but very minor so far, but the seeds are being planted. I think in a D it would escalate. I have made it clear it is unacceptable and illegal:

"Daddy why did you take our soup to work so we couldn't have it" - I hadn't
"Granny can't come and stay she throws all our toys away" - About my mother. She has never thrown their toys away


Also telling my son if I ask about something not to tell me about it. etc etc..

My reaction to this is to be very clear. "Son that is not true I did not take the soup, I had a sandwich for lunch"

[kells76]

"Pathological parenting" behaviors, like roping children into adult conflicts or emotionally pushing children to "take one parent's side", are so harmful. What those behaviors do is effectively silence the child -- it doesn't matter that the child wants and needs to love both parents, what's more important is that the disordered parent gets his/her needs met through the child, whatever the child wants. The child is left voiceless and unheard.

This is really important to understand when figuring out how to face those behaviors. There's what the other parent is doing, and then there's what your precious child needs.

Dealing with the other parent's statements/behaviors when interacting with your child is counterintuitive.

The pull is so, so strong to "prove that it's wrong". I'm not saying there's no place for that -- more saying that we need to be so careful not to inadvertently do the same thing to our child that the other parent is doing (not hearing our child's needs/pain/feelings).

When kids come to us and say "Mom says that you never let her go camping" (yes, we've heard that one), or "Dad says you did XYZ", or "You always get what you want, I never get what I want", etc, we need to understand that there is a hurting child who needs to be heard first.

What if we started by saying "Wow... how did you feel when she said that?"

Or: "He said that, huh? What do you think?"

Or: "Seems like a weird thing to bring up... what do you remember about it?"

Focus first on validating your child. What this does is give your kid a different experience -- with Mom (or whoever), the focus is on Mom's feelings, Mom's statements, Mom's experience. With you, though, if the first thing you do is focus on your child's feelings, that is building a foundation for trust, where even if your kid can't articulate it for years, he/she knows that you're a safe, appropriate parent.

I can't recommend this article on "Ju-jitsu Parenting" enough.

Take a look at it -- anyone in this thread who has children with a BPD spouse -- and see what sounds do-able to start.

We have made it through fire with H's kids and are coming out the other side. This is a long game -- lay that foundation of emotional validation with your kids now.

[CravingPeace]

Wow kells76 that is so helpful thankyou. I had read it was important to tell them the truth about what had happened, but getting to their feelings first sounds even more important. I know if it gets worse that If I handle it correctly it may hurt in the short term as they are brain washed, but eventually as they grow up they will see I was the one thinking of their feelings and there for them, and one day they will see it was not me doing things to hurt them.

The sad thing is I do not want my wife's relationship to suffer with them, but by alienating them she will eventually hurt her relationship when they realize it was not true. It is only small examples right now, but I am pretty sure it would escalate if she got bitter about a Divorce.

My wife told me when her parents were getting divorced her dad would do stuff like phone the mother from the car and have it on speaker so they could hear horrible things the mother was saying. At the time she thought how awful her mother was, but now realizes clearly her dad was manipulating the situation to alienate the mother. It's all so messed up. Grown ups acting like children and damaging their children!

So to roll play this out, would it be something like this? Any corrections?:

Son: "Daddy why did you take our soup to work so we couldn't have it""
Dad: "Oh wow, what makes you think I did that?"
Son: "I don't know" (he is scared to admit mom said it no doubt)
Dad: "How would you feel if I had taken the soup?" (I know he doesn't even like that soup)
Son: "I would be upset"
Dad "I am so sorry if that would upset you, to be clear I did not take the soup. Is there something you would like me to make you to eat?"

[kells76]

Great mindset to start working through those potential conversations here 

I had read it was important to tell them the truth about what had happened, but getting to their feelings first sounds even more important.

Exactly -- maybe it's not that it's an "either/or" situation, but a "both/and" situation, with the key part being what you prioritize first. So yes, good example scenario from you of how you start by focusing on how your son feels, and only at the end slip in "well, even though it didn't happen that way at all, I can see why that would be on your mind" statement.

Son: "Daddy why did you take our soup to work so we couldn't have it""
Dad: "Oh wow, what makes you think I did that?"
Son: "I don't know" (he is scared to admit mom said it no doubt)
Dad: "How would you feel if I had taken the soup?" (I know he doesn't even like that soup)
Son: "I would be upset"
Dad "I am so sorry if that would upset you, to be clear I did not take the soup. Is there something you would like me to make you to eat?"

That second line is good -- you aren't immediately asking "How did you feel when Mom said I did that", because he didn't say "Mom said...", he's talking about himself. So even if you have some suspicions about where he got that thought, you're dealing with what he tells you -- which are his thoughts/feelings. Nice.

An "I don't know" response sounds pretty plausible for a kid. Good move following that up with the hypothetical: "If I had done XYZ, how would you feel?" -- other options include "That's OK to not know" and "Yeah?" (remembering that body language and tone will be huge for the short statements).

Maybe other parents can chime in on the last line -- it can depend on the child/situation whether including "I am sorry ______" is a helpful direction to go.

Can you remind me if you think your son is old enough to mentally understand hypotheticals like "I'm sorry if that would have been upsetting"?

Other options for the end could include: "That would make sense... even though I didn't take it, I can understand feeling that way" or "Yeah, if that was the case, it would make sense to feel upset... I want you to know that I didn't take it -- how about I make some food for you now? What sounds good?"

Those can get kind of long, but it's likely that in the situation you'd have a better read on the back-and-forth and dynamics. Long can work at the end, but shorter is usually better.

Seems like a good move, too, to end with a focus on taking care of him (asking what he'd like to eat).

...

The sad thing is I do not want my wife's relationship to suffer with them, but by alienating them she will eventually hurt her relationship when they realize it was not true. It is only small examples right now, but I am pretty sure it would escalate if she got bitter about a Divorce.

Yeah, we sometimes have to let those relationships play out and not intervene to "fix it".

Can you remind me if you and/or the kids are in any kind of therapy?

[CravingPeace]

Thanks for this my oldest is 8. Your feedback is very helpful.

I am in therapy. Wife is in therapy. My therapist always always focuses on me. Understanding my issues and helping me. "What can I control". A lot of trauma release from childhood etc, I guess I have some abandonment/betrayal issues I am working on that made me very codependent. If I start complaining about my wife, he brings me back and tells me as upsetting as that is what can I control? How can I heal and look after me, so even if a D happens I can stop the cycle. Looking at things like why did I accept an affair. etc etc. Why did I not walk away from the red flags, why did I always try to fix things and work harder when told to.

Unfortunately my wife's therapist who has been divorced herself from a Narcissist ( I think twice) has decided I am a Narcissist or have traits and is coaching my wife on how to leave. Or so my wife says. So I think her therapist believes all the victim stories, to be fair she is very convincing, she had me recruited as her rescuer/caretaker/protector for such a very very long time. I believed all the stories, until recently when it all started to crumble and I realized it was a pattern, not everyone is out to get you. And many things I was told about myself and I took to heart, I started to see in her. It's like one last thing woke me up from a deep slumber.

But I digress. I think it sounds like getting the kids into therapy could be helpful

[kells76]

Thanks for this my oldest is 8. Your feedback is very helpful.

Could be a good age to read some books together or watch some shows/movies together about related concepts, like "hypothetical situations" for example, or feeling worried about something that didn't really happen. Talking about a book or show takes the pressure off of trying to figure out or explain a certain dynamic when it's happening between you two, and is laying some groundwork for the future. When our kids were around that age, we watched a lot of My Little Pony -- though I'm not sure that it'd be popular with 8 year old boys. I've checked out the "Bluey" show with my 3YO niece and that seems pretty grounded. Book-wise, reading age-appropriate classics should bring up plenty of topics to discuss. Then, later on, if you and S8 are in a situation, you can say "Remember how in The Jungle Book, Mowgli did XYZ? But then he found out _____? That's kind of like this."

I am in therapy. Wife is in therapy. My therapist always always focuses on me. Understanding my issues and helping me. "What can I control". A lot of trauma release from childhood etc, I guess I have some abandonment/betrayal issues I am working on that made me very codependent. If I start complaining about my wife, he brings me back and tells me as upsetting as that is what can I control? How can I heal and look after me, so even if a D happens I can stop the cycle. Looking at things like why did I accept an affair. etc etc. Why did I not walk away from the red flags, why did I always try to fix things and work harder when told to.

Sounds like a good therapist    It's hard work -- that's no joke. As much as I do update my T about the intense stuff going on at the kids' mom's house, and as much as she does validate and empathize, she keeps coming back to the dynamic between me and H, and that I am going to need to be OK with taking some emotional risks to be vulnerable. That's what's 100% under my control... and so uncomfortable.

Unfortunately my wife's therapist who has been divorced herself from a Narcissist ( I think twice) has decided I am a Narcissist or have traits and is coaching my wife on how to leave. Or so my wife says. So I think her therapist believes all the victim stories, to be fair she is very convincing, she had me recruited as her rescuer/caretaker/protector for such a very very long time. I believed all the stories, until recently when it all started to crumble and I realized it was a pattern, not everyone is out to get you. And many things I was told about myself and I took to heart, I started to see in her. It's like one last thing woke me up from a deep slumber.

Unless her T is telling that to you personally, it's likely filtered through your W's lenses. She may say that her therapist, all therapists, all your family, the pope, the president, the king, and past historical figures have agreed that you are the narcissist and deserve to be left.

I wouldn't give that much energy or thought. If your W brings it up voluntarily, though, like "Guess what -- today in therapy, my therapist said you are the problem", you can consider saying either "It sounds like your T has something to say to or about me, so I'm happy give your T a call" or "Wow, that must have felt good to hear". Or both, at different times. If the conversation feels like it won't be positive or constructive, you are allowed to decline to participate: "I'm heading to the grocery store, I'll be back in an hour" (you don't have to explain why it isn't helpful for her to say "what her T said" about you).

I think it sounds like getting the kids into therapy could be helpful

What angle do you think is there, where you could get your W's buy-in for both of you to agree to get the kids in T?

[PeteWitsend]

It might also help to reassure your kids that your Ex has their own opinions on things and that's okay,  and they don't have to agree with everything their parent says.

I felt like my daughter struggled with this b/c she was being guilted to accept AND believe or at least not question everything her mom said, and felt guilty about it because she knew a lot of what her mom said wasn't true.

[CravingPeace]

What angle do you think is there, where you could get your W's buy-in for both of you to agree to get the kids in T?

Thanks for all the advice makes sense Kells. We do watch Bluey sometimes, I love the parents relationship in that. They disagree sometimes but it is always done with love in a mature way. There is such love and joy between them. I often wonder is that possible, or is it just glamoursied for tv? As I am yet to experience that but it would be a dream.

I think my wife would agree to kids t. We were talking about a kid that is being mean to my son and what to do. She said "the kid acts like that as has a horrible home life", she said "I thought that's why our son acts out to sometimes too due to our bad homelife". So she is more than aware our home life is not good for the kids , she doesn't recognize I think it the BPD in the room triggers it. I have not been arguing with her for some time, I refuse to engage and she usually goes off angry, storms off etc as I wont argue, and remain calm. The other day she picked 2 different fights in 30 minutes, as I kept refusing to retaliate, or raise my voice or engage on it. She still sees this as toxic for the kids but says its because I wont resolve things, rather than the fact she is often trying to cause arguments and I won't play ball which frustrates her. LIke dont get me wrong, I will answer the question I will go around it twice, but then I will say "we have already discussed this now, I have twice answered the question, I have nothing further to add", or "We have discussed this and both shared our opinions I am not interested in discussing and going around it again". I mean could I work really hard to validate her angry emotions and even accept what she is saying to defuse. Yes I could, but I am not on the bettering board anymore for a reason. I just can't take it from her anymore. Patience has run out. So now my aim is to stay calm and not engage, grey rock if you will. This does make her more angry as she wants the feedback.

It might also help to reassure your kids that your Ex has their own opinions on things and that's okay,  and they don't have to agree with everything their parent says.

I felt like my daughter struggled with this b/c she was being guilted to accept AND believe or at least not question everything her mom said, and felt guilty about it because she knew a lot of what her mom said wasn't true.

Thanks PeteWitsend. It's not just opinions though.

This morning my oldest got emotional and punched me and stuck his finger up at me. I explained its ok to get angry I get it, everyone does. But punching and sticking your finger up is not ok. I really want you to try taking some deep breathes when you feel like this, or take yourself to your room to bounce on a ball or something until you feel calmer.

He said "Mom says she sticks her finger up at you when you don't have your glasses on at night time". I said "thats interesting did she mention why she does that", he said "because of all the things you do like arguing with her and leaving the toilet seat up". I said "wow that is sad she does that, but I still don't feel its ok to stick your finger up, we should talk about problems we have", he agreed and was much better after.

Like I am 100% sure what he was saying is true, as he doesn't know I am wondering around without my glasses on when going to bed! As he is asleep hours before, as it is literally walking from bathroom to bed. The point is this is clearly not a difference in opinion. Being vindictive like that is one thing, telling my son she does that "because of all the things I do", and playing it off as a joke is kinda sick no?

He got worried a bit later and said "actually I am making it up". I said "oh ok, well if you are making it up that's a shame, maybe you are just joking. But I need you to know if it was true it is ok to tell me, I will never bring it up with anyone else as what we talk about is between us", so he said "ok she did say it I was just worried you would tell her and she would tell me off for telling you". I promised I would never bring it up, and I won't. Mostly not to betray his trust, but also as she will just deny it get angry then tell me stuff I have done before which is the same (usually completely fabricated or not relevant).