I pulled the pin on the grenade

[AlleyOop23]

I pulled the pin on the grenade and while she was in Mexico with 3 friends I told the kids and then texted her that I’d told the kids and would be getting a restraining order.

I will always be grateful for having g told them with their mother gone. It’s a violation and she’s furious. But I got to talk. I wasn’t interrupted or shut down. I got the chance to lead the kids and show them one side of stability.

The kids went fairly well until their mom called distraught and crying and shattered the optimism that there might be an amicable divorce.

In the aftermath the predictable torrent of rage texts threatening me with everything just goes on and on.

Dam this is just awful. And after wringing my hands about the gentlest way to do this I am being shown why that was an exercise in naïveté.

The kids are excited about the new house. And planing to conceal that excitement from their mother in proper codependent in training Fashion.

Any fantasy about being friends at least for awhile is  gone.

I was so stressed out about this and now there is nothing she won’t threaten.


Having said all that I am now able to believe that it wouldn’t have mattered how I handled it. It would have started like this on some level.  I used to blame myself for not heading off these blow ups.


It’s awful but I feel better. I move out completely forever tomorrow and get to start on my own. And when the kids are with me I won’t be creeping around on eggshells or wall flowering it.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop,

I remember feeling waves of relief - interspersed with a full spectrum of other emotions - as I went through this process.  I imagine you'll be riding those waves, too.

Good luck with the move and establishing the transition process with your kids.

Has your stbx been served yet?  How do you feel about your atty and next steps?

[ForeverDad]

Having said all that I am now able to believe that it wouldn’t have mattered how I handled it. It would have started like this on some level.  I used to blame myself for not heading off these blow ups.

But like most of us, you had to try anyway, right?

You handled it well. 

Depending on how severe her behaviors are, she may go full tilt on trying to make you look way worse than her.  Be prepared for allegation filed about DV, getting children's services involved with claims of child abuse, child neglect and whatever.  There is virtually no limit to what she may claim.  Be aware.  Beware.

[ForeverDad]

Allegations are just that... allegations.  Nearly all of the allegations against us end up filed away as 'unsubstantiated'.  That's a bit passive considering the vociferous emotion filled claims.  The difference between you two is that you probably have documentation or other evidence to back up your account.

Less common is a determination of 'unfounded'.  It too is a passive word which in courtspeak means Liar!

One caution.  If the children are interviewed by children's services, understand that kids don't like being caught in the middle.  You can do that but likely not your spouse.  How much they might be intimidated to lean toward repeating mother's side is an unknown, at least from here.  You can be fairly sure that when mother gets back she'll try to indoctrinate and prep then to say what she wants.

Fortunately CPS investigators do try to interview the children in somewhat neutral environments.  In most of my ex's allegations they seldom spoke with my child, well, so far as I know.  The one time I recall being told is they came to his school when my child was in kindergarten class.

Has your lawyer discussed what to do if your ex takes that aggressive path?  I recall how my ex claimed to be a victim but she was so very aggressive about it.  There was such a contradiction about it.  I would think an aggressive victim would not be very credible.

[livednlearned]

What are the terms of the restraining order? (not sure if terms is the right word)

[AlleyOop23]

She can’t come within 1000 feet. Parental communication only.

She is livid I told them without her.
She is livid I took them to the house. Angry they like it. Warning me not to get a dog.

On and on. I’m entitled, selfish, on a power trip “other people” see how bad I am.

Here’s the thing though. I’m out.  Don’t have to deal with it to avoid her blowing up at me. Don’t have to respond to texts promptly to avoid rage.

These issues aren’t gone from my life. But I’m not sleeping in a bedroom with a locked door. And it feels pretty good.

[SinisterComplex]

She can’t come within 1000 feet. Parental communication only.

She is livid I told them without her.
She is livid I took them to the house. Angry they like it. Warning me not to get a dog.

On and on. I’m entitled, selfish, on a power trip “other people” see how bad I am.

Here’s the thing though. I’m out.  Don’t have to deal with it to avoid her blowing up at me. Don’t have to respond to texts promptly to avoid rage.

These issues aren’t gone from my life. But I’m not sleeping in a bedroom with a locked door. And it feels pretty good.

One step at a time. Still a long road, but the good news...you made a decision for you and put one foot in front of the other on a new path. 

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[GaGrl]

Have your children said anything in anticipation of their mother returning and being livid?

They may need multiple assurances that, while the conflict is between mom and dad, you love them and will support them in making this difficult change. Don't tell them their mother loves them -- that can conflict them on what "love" looks like. Your stbx is responsible for her communications with them. If she botched it, that's where you support them and validate them.

[kells76]

Hey, thanks for filling us in on where things are at.

She can’t come within 1000 feet. Parental communication only.

How is parental communication legally required to happen? Text? Our Family Wizard? Email? Other?

If that isn't yet spelled out, that will be important.

She is livid I told them without her.
She is livid I took them to the house. Angry they like it. Warning me not to get a dog.

On and on. I’m entitled, selfish, on a power trip “other people” see how bad I am.

We were warned via email not to get a pet snake. This isn't unusual, surprising, or unexpected. Consider this "the norm" for when the other parent has a PD -- pivot from being surprised/shocked/outraged/indignant every time, to expecting it ahead of time so that you can respond (vs react) with flexible thinking, managed emotions, and moderate behaviors.

As GaGrl mentioned, the big concern here is the impact of her emotions on the kids. If she has BPD, then she will struggle with appropriate boundaries and healthy management of feelings. This stuff will likely start to dump on the kids.

It's critical that you let your kids' counselors (do they both have private counselors? or, at minimum, school counselors and support staff) know about the divorce, sooner rather than later. You don't have to blame or point fingers -- more something like "Hi School Staff, I wanted to let you know that our family is going through a change right now and the kids' mom and I will be living separately as we divorce. My #1 concern is my kids' well-being so please know that this is happening and they may have a lot of emotions come up. Please don't hesitate to reach out to me any time with observations or concerns -- I'm at 123-456-7890 and can come down to the school within X minutes for any reason. Thank you all again for caring about the kids; Mr. AlleyOop23"

Here’s the thing though. I’m out.  Don’t have to deal with it to avoid her blowing up at me. Don’t have to respond to texts promptly to avoid rage.

These issues aren’t gone from my life. But I’m not sleeping in a bedroom with a locked door. And it feels pretty good.

It'll be such a benefit to your kids for you to be able to parent from a stable emotional baseline  

What has your counselor said about where things are at?

[Tangled mangled]

She can’t come within 1000 feet. Parental communication only.

She is livid I told them without her.
She is livid I took them to the house. Angry they like it. Warning me not to get a dog.

On and on. I’m entitled, selfish, on a power trip “other people” see how bad I am.

Here’s the thing though. I’m out.  Don’t have to deal with it to avoid her blowing up at me. Don’t have to respond to texts promptly to avoid rage.

These issues aren’t gone from my life. But I’m not sleeping in a bedroom with a locked door. And it feels pretty good.

So glad you’re no longer stuck in that mess. It’s a very horrible situation when your home that once loved becomes a prison, and you realise you’re a hostage in your own home.

A counsellor I saw once described escaping an emotionally abusive relationship as having thesame effects on the brain as incarceration does on prisoners.
Wishing you all the best as you navigate the rest of your journey through healing. You have made the best decision for yourself and the girls and they will grow up knowing atleast one healthy parent.

[livednlearned]

What's the plan for when/if she violates the PO?

Do you anticipate she will comply?

[AlleyOop23]

This is all so great. Thank you. Yeah private counselors. I’m going to reach out today. Communications mandated through my family wizard. If she violates the Po I’ll call
The police. Of that even happens once will be enough.

[Pook075]

Warning me not to get a dog.

For the record, I'd get two dogs.  And a goldfish named Lucky.

[kells76]

This is all so great. Thank you. Yeah private counselors. I’m going to reach out today. Communications mandated through my family wizard. If she violates the Po I’ll call
The police. Of that even happens once will be enough.

Smart to reach out to the counselors today. That's putting your kids first.

Like LnL mentioned, this is really important to know:

What are the terms of the restraining order? (not sure if terms is the right word)

Is she legally allowed to text or call you?

How are these messages:

Warning me not to get a dog.

On and on. I’m entitled, selfish, on a power trip “other people” see how bad I am.

getting to you? Through OFW?

[Skip]

The kids are excited about the new house.

Great. This part doesn't always go well. 

What are they excited about? What are they looking forward to?

What have they expressed to you (good and bad) about the divorce.

[AlleyOop23]

My SBX has gone full in on. Please help me I can’t function. I am blindsided by this. Please go to intensive Merrill counseling with me. I thought we were working on this. After all this work I’ve done I’m actually not pulled into this but I find it difficult bike Walking by someone who is injured and not stopping.

[ForeverDad]

How can we help?  Frankly, we knew it wouldn't be simple, yet you've done well to do as much preparation as possible.  So now we help stamp out the forest fires as they occur.  Give us something to work with, okay?

Meanwhile, take some deep breaths.  We'll help you through this.
 

[AlleyOop23]

So the restraining order is not yet entered. My lawyers botched the hearing and it was canceled and had to be rescheduled. I do t want to talk about that at all I mention it only to say this

She is texting me constantly about how bad this feels and how this was to do. It won’t do me any good to engage with logic like “well you should have thought about that when you (fill in the blank).”

If I grey rock her she keeps escalating. At this point if I break off communication I lose contact with y kids. If I go over there to get them she will create a huge scene.

If I say what I really think “just leave me alone” I’m worried I’ll jeopardize any chance for a less rocky divorce snd oost divorce. I don’t feel bad about the choices I made but explaining that to her doesn’t do anything.

Mostly I just avoid it.  It I stress on it feeling compelled to say or text SOMETHING.  I don’t k me what to do I. Response to her pain practically, ethically or strategically.

And I hit the wall on listening. After 3 straight years I just can’t take it.

[Skip]

Can you describe specifically what she is doing and what she is saying (short version) and how you are responding? Are you being bombed with panic communications? Are you responding on a one-to-one basis? Is she arguing or pleading?  Are you arguing or stonewalling.

It will help to paint the picture.

In general, you probably want to offer some access to 1) communicate about the kids, and 2) to provide a pressure relief valve for her anxiety. I would offer this in exchange for calm/respectful exchanges and respond only to calm/respectful exchanges. I would slow the tempo by taking time to respond... maybe once a day right now and then stretch it out. Respond to things that are safe (safer). For harder questions, just say you need time to think - space.

You described what happened last week as "I pulled the pin on the grenade". Shock and awe. Now you are dealing with the blow back. Her life has exploded (yours too), she feels totally threatened, and she is in the denial and bargaining stage. You have some leverage now. Eventually she will get in the anger stage and that will be harder.

It's just part of it.

The other option is to deny all communications and wait for the TRO. This is also a very valid approach.

There are pros and cons to each.

The one thing you don't want to do is get into intense, high anxiety exchanges with her.

Stay strong and steady.

[ForeverDad]

I can understand your distress.  Lawyers take setbacks in stride, after all it's not a huge personal impact, they go home at the end of their day at work.  For you, it's your life.

I recall when I was in court for my initial divorce hearing.  My ex had blocked all access to my preschooler for three months since our prior TPO separation orders had been dismissed.  The same magistrate said "I'll fix that" when he confirmed with my stbEx that she had indeed blocked all father-child contact for three months.  Did he lambast her with warnings and consequences?  No.  Did he grant me make-up time for the lost three months?  No.  All he did was issue a similar parenting order as before, I had no temp custody and limited to alternate weekends and a three hour evening in between.

That was bad enough.  But my lawyer - who was otherwise a solid attorney - leaned over and shushed me, telling me "we'll fix it later".  Later?  I thought he meant at the next hearings, but no.  The new temp order lasted the entire length of the divorce process, nearly two years!  (However, I have to admit he had initially estimated the divorce should take 7-9 months, not two years.)

So yes, it's a shock.  But you'll get through it.  I think it'll be harder on the kids since she most likely will be pressuring the kids to agree with her perspective and her perceptions.  Kids really shouldn't be pressured to take sides in the adult matters but pwBPD can't seem to let such considerations stop them from their emotion driven, self-centered actions.

Be forewarned that courts generally ignore alienation attempts as minor issues and largely ignore the initial high emotions of the newly separated spouses.  They assume it is only temporary whereas we have recognized that when a PD such as Borderline is involved then our cases are much more complicated and protracted.

[AlleyOop23]

Here’s a text that is an example


“..you took everything instead of helping  me! Why? Please tell me why ? I begged and begged. Truly begged for you help and you’re acting like I didn’t. Or like you actually helped . But you just left me in a bed for two years slowing disappearing . I needed you I needed got to be strong for me. To come and pick me up and say I won’t let this happen to you! I won’t let what ever this is take you!! You pulled the plug on me and so fast! you left me to die. Please see you’ve told yourself a whole story that justifies leaving me to fend for myself . Bat ethese were already all of m biggest fears. You are the only one the only one that can help and that I needed to see me. I depended on you and you let me crash to the floor. You didn’t take a turn to hold me up and help me through the worst…the better or worst. Why didn’t I get that fro you when can it to you so often and so easily? Please tell me why I deserve nothing? Why you’ve left me either nothing? This is too muchBe for any of this got this bad I begged and begged you to help me. And I the end in begged you to help me. Why is this what you chose? So extreme so much cruelty. I am human I am a human being and I needed you. Please look inside and see all of the things that got twisted together that you’re using to have chosen not being there for me. For walking away every day for two years when I was devastated and needing you. For never staying home and saying we’re going to get you through this. I won’t leave you I won’t walk away. I’ll take care of us. I’ll fight when you’re weak. You left me everyday knowing I needed you. Seeing everyday how is was degrading. That degrading got us here’s the degrading from pushing me self too far. Please remember why I was still here pushing myself . It’s real nate ..that it broke me to stay. When I kept describing it 5 years ago, 3 years again. Did you hear me did you listen do you remember? I said I’m so scared I’m so scared because I can feel it all happening. I needed you to protect me  It was your turn. Even when things get so bad and soeeosnis in so much need. You promised me. And  you know my life, you know my little girl…who I was and what I went through. I needed the protect from you before the damage of all that took me away. I needed you to stop and to keep the demons from taking me. Why do other get that and I get this. What is so undeserving and inherently bad about me that I can’t seem to ever be the one that gets saved or valued even when I’m falling apart. Please see you turned left instead of right. Please help me so our girls don’t have this as their story. Please see something of this. Please see that I was getting more and more damaged by not having you. THIS wasn’t the answer.…I’ve been careening down this highway and I needed you to stop it and get me to safety. You just never saw the the solution was you. Even if as you say you can’t be both the problem and solution. But I disagree. It’s exactly that. And I lay there for two years waiting for you to come and pick  me up. But you let each day pass wondering why I couldn’t fix myself for YOU. I don’t thing you ever saw that it was you..your turn your struggle be there in good times and bad. Just because you did stuff does mean you did the things that would save me. II couldn’t save myself. Don’t to see? I still can’t. I lost myself and I needed you ..YOU to help me find my way back. I thought I was coming home to you  for all of that to finally start. “
[/i]

The she writes this which is a detail I’ve never heard before

“You just win. Everything. Like I’ve said..I’m not actually strong. When I was little, sometimes it was easier to just lay there untik they were done hitting me. There was no way to fight. So I had to just let it happen to me. I know how to do that. I cant be this person that learned to fight snd protect myself anymore. I don’t have anything left. I’m going to just lay down until it’s over. Until the job is done. “

Throughout the time referenced in the first text, essentially the last five years, I tried to hang in there. I took abuse and relentless pointed mean nasty criticism and blame. And I used to buy into the narrative that it was my fault. I also used to want her to understand my perspective. Now I know she never will. I used to want to swipe back angrily retorting “you hit me (etc)!”

Everything I did I knew would hurt her deeply but I used my best judgment to keep my kids safe. My lawyers are effing up that short term plan. What am I suppose to say? Sorry you’re hurt but I had to do what I did? I do care about her pain. I do worry about her. And of course this level of reqctive vulnerability is so infuriating because it’s manipulative emotional blackmail but also because if she’d been willing to be open maybe we could have been better.

So I don’t know what to say. I can’t educate her. I can’t genuinely comfort her. I’m not going back to her. And skip is right when she moves to anger it’s giving to be horrible.

[livednlearned]

Do you have a concern she might harm herself?

[AlleyOop23]

No. She’s not actually threatening that. Which she’s done. Recently, she threatened suicide and I wasn’t home, so I called the police and headed home. She denied that’s what she meant. the police really couldn’t do anything.

[kells76]

Am I reading correctly that she texted this:

Please help me I can’t function. I am blindsided by this. Please go to intensive Merrill counseling with me. I thought we were working on this.

and was requesting marriage counseling?

[AlleyOop23]

Yes. She sent me a website about a marriage intensive counseling after ignoring one I sent her about family counseling, and coparenting counseling.

[livednlearned]

For now, maybe we can help you brainstorm a phrase that holds space for you while she processes.

It's ok to say you need to take space and time to center yourself. Your focus is to be a steadying presence for the kids.  

She's on tilt right now so less will be more, but saying nothing will likely be unmanageable for her.  

Others might have more suggestions for good phrases that can help you BIFF your way forward.  

If you find her messages are interfering with your ability to get centered, it might help to not read them -- have someone else read them. They can let you know what if anything requires a response.

You won't stop her from using text/email to express pain but over time you may see improvements. My son's father went from 100 percent abusive, long texts to 25 percent abusive during periods of relative calm, back up to ~50 percent as the court stuff moved forward. I had emails forwarded to a friend and batch read texts from him once a day in the company of a trusted friend. It's important to find ways to manage your own nervous system.

[AlleyOop23]

Omg she won’t stop texting. It just goes on and on and on. She’s just sitting and texting all her thoughts endlessly. I don’t understand how someone at some point does realize - wow I’ve been texting for hours maybe I should think about this as an issue just by itself.

[Tangled mangled]

AlleyOop,

She’s very ill, but the worst thing is she won’t receive advice to go to therapy even though her life depends on it.

Set yourself free, you already have, you didn’t cause it, you can’t cure it and you are definitely not the cause and the cure.
She’s highly dysregulated, even the text structure proves this. My concern is for your daughters who will have to deal with some of this. She dove appear in a position to put their needs ahead of theirs, I hope they received some warning about her impending dysregulation.
This brings back memories of one of my own parents numerous conflicts- at the time my dad was living abroad while mum was the main parent. I had to type her email ( days of internet cafe) my dad and it sounded like this text you have shared. I was 17 at the time, boy did I rush in to rescue her. Those I was praying for them to divorce- they are still married and my mum is still wrecking every one’s who comes too close to her vortex. In her mid sixties and going strong.


It’s going to be a really tough one to for you and the girls, you are doing great, just ensure you continue to distance yourself from the vortex- she’s not as helpless as she appears, if you get concerned about her safety, and I see that in your future, going by her texts- do not he’s to call the police to do a wellness check. It might be the reality check she needs. Do it as often as she threatens.
My stxh also refused counselling to help make the separation less contentious- he kept insisting on marriage counselling like we must stay married.
He actually told me he won’t sign the divorce papers as we had to stay together to pay up the mortgage- it sounds as silly as that.

Stay strong and do what you can to respond and not react- keep your self emotionally safe.

[Skip]

It's really important that we stay centered in a situation like this. That's not easy in divorce. A lot of damage can be done in the divorce process that will carry forward in the years of co-parenting.

I'm here, like everyone else, to support you. Part of that is helping you stay centered. That might feel like a slap from time to time, but we want the best outcomes for you and the best confidants are those who are straight with you.

My SBX has gone full in on. Please help me I can’t function. I am blindsided by this. Please go to intensive Merrill counseling with me. I thought we were working on this.  

I don't think it serves you well to feel blindsided right now. Yes, the emotional stuff you were trying to avoid has surfaced in another way and you hate that (everyone does). Yes, you had reasons for launching the divorce that way you did and you knew it was going to be earth shattering for her and that there would be collateral damage (here friends). But its probably more that your plan didn't go as designed than she blindsided you.

Member's here have coached others who have been on the receiving side of the "grenade" and their reaction is pretty much what you are seeing now with your wife.

The reason I say it won't serves you well to feel blindsided right now, is because those feeling might drive you to drop another grenade and amp things up more.

  The more contentious the divorce, the higher the likelihood of a Disney dad schedule - which is not your objective.

A lot of members here know what she is going through and what you are going through and may have pointers for tactics to avoid unnecessarily amping things up.

Yes. She sent me a website about a marriage intensive counseling after ignoring one I sent her about family counseling, and coparenting counseling.

You both are proposing counseling. There is potentially an opportunity here to consider.

It's a reasonable tactic to enter into counseling and after a few sessions (or even up front) tell the therapist that you aren't feeling it and want help steering her to acceptance of divorce and discussing the interests of the kids.

Her texts are a like a mommy wolf baying at the moon at night after losing her babies. You don't need to save her or soothe her, but understand what is happening and adjust.

Does it still make sense to do a protective order (not a rhetorical question) or should you focus on getting agreement on temporary orders?

[ForeverDad]

Wow, what a long text.  One would think that a person could use paragraphs in their texts or emails.  My impression is that many with BPD get on emotion-laden rants and can't parse or punctuate themselves.

Another thought I had is that my ex was a very aggressive self-proclaimed "victim".  I felt that somehow "aggressive" and "victim" don't go together.  If she's able to vent so strongly then she not fearful of you.

Recently, she threatened suicide and I wasn’t home, so I called the police and headed home. She denied that’s what she meant. the police really couldn’t do anything.

If she did it by email or text (or it was witnessed by others) then she really couldn't deny it.  You could prove proof to counter her denial.

You did well by reporting it but it's also to be expected the position the responders were in.

[AlleyOop23]

Sorry I was quoting her. She feels blindsided by me.

Yeah, I need to get a protective order because I am not going to jail if she attacks me.

I would love to discuss temporary orders with her. If she had a lawyer, that might actually be possible but she doesn’t and when I have tried to talk schedule with her, all she does is literally go on and on about how she feels and how bad I am for two hours and doesn’t get to it and will not get to it no matter how many times I’ll bring her back to her

[AlleyOop23]

Wow, you think that’s a long text? She will text me streams of consciousness that run in separate texts, all strong together anywhere from 3 to 9 feet as measured by an iPhone screen.

[kells76]

I would love to discuss temporary orders with her. If she had a lawyer, that might actually be possible but she doesn’t and when I have tried to talk schedule with her, all she does is literally go on and on about how she feels and how bad I am for two hours and doesn’t get to it and will not get to it no matter how many times I’ll bring her back to her

Long game: you need a schedule for the kids (temporary orders). She's wrapped up in her feelings. She probably won't be responsive to "reasonable" or "logical" requests

It would be better to get some kind of agreement with her and you together (vs it "being imposed on" her) -- so she doesn't move from the clingy/sad place to the anger/taking it out on you via the kids place before things are legal.

You offered family therapy, she didn't take you up on that.

Now she's offering marriage counseling.

It's not family counseling -- but it's an office with a neutral, third party professional. Like Skip mentioned, you aren't required to stay married just because you go for a few sessions. It would be OK to go in with the mindset of -- "if I know myself, it's very unlikely that counseling will get us back together. I can just go and learn some communication approaches for coparenting, and also have a forum to raise my interest in working out a schedule. I can stop going at any time."

Would she feel "heard" and therefore be more willing to agree to a schedule you propose, if she felt like she "won" by getting you to go to counseling?

If you decide that's something to try in order to achieve your goal of temp orders, know that it's OK to tell the counselor at the first session: "I don't feel up for all 3 of us meeting together right away. I'm fine with meeting with you 1x1 for half the session -- that's just where I'm at today. I'm OK with my kids' mom also meeting with you 1x1 so she has space to share her feelings."

That keeps you out of the high anxiety situation of being in a room with her.

Again, this isn't about being deceptive or manipulative. It's about thinking about outcomes and playing the long game. The kids need you to get a schedule for them. What actual (not desired or best) options/doors are there right now for doing that? There may be more options besides a few marriage counseling sessions (I would understand not wanting to go that route) -- what comes to mind?

...

Does your W have an individual counselor?

[ForeverDad]

Right now you're in a no-man's land of no court order yet.  Likely what is happening now will persist until that TRO hearing is completed.  Do you have a timeline on that?

Has she returned and are the children now with her?  If so, is she blocking an expected return of the children to you?  What about contact such as phone calls or texts from them?

Police, if called, will not enforce what you want or what she wants.  In my experience their primary task is to defuse any immediate incident and defer everything else to the court to handle.  What that means is that if there is an incident they respond to, they will separate the couple, by force if necessary.  Sadly, whether right or wrong, their typical procedure will be to cart away the man.

What this means is that you'll have to "cool your heels" waiting for the next court hearing.  Meanwhile, lacking a court order either way, it's the proverbial "possession is 9/10 the law".  It may come down to who picks them up from school, if they're school age.  Even then, be cautious in case the police get called there.  Schools hate incidents in their domain.  All things being equal - as in, no court orders - then the man gets unfair treatment.

[At Bay]

(I’m sorry, but I don’t know how to copy earlier posts.)

I’ve read, here, I think, that when facing an unpleasant reality, there needs to be awareness followed by acceptance. She may or may not be aware that you will not be living where you might be hit, threatened and intimidated in a dysfunctional way of life that hurts you and your children.

She’s livid just as my husband was (it is too late for me to be on my own), when I told him I’d discovered his extramarital affair after finding a backdoor into his phone records. He had a tantrum and said I shouldn’t have invaded his privacy, and I told him he shouldn’t have given me a reason to….

Looks like her goal is for you to change your mind and accept the blame. You’ll still need her to help your children adjust to the changes, but while keeping yourself safe and minimizing what the kids witness, so don’t be alone with her.

My son texts his ex (when it is his turn to keep the girls), that he’s arrived in front of her house and “please tell the girls he is there.” If your soon to be ex-wife comes out and causes a scene, the police might consider you are in the car, and she could go back in the house if she wanted to.

How long it will take for her to see the current dialog isn’t working to her advantage and to accept the changes is an unknown, and up to her. I agree with others that she’ll then become as difficult as she is allowed to be.

[ForeverDad]

For the first few years my ex played the aggressive but fearful victim and we had to make exchanges at the sheriff's offices.  Not even in the parking lot, we had to do it inside in the lobby.  It was out of the way for both of us but that way there was a court recognized official monitoring us, the sheriff's deputy, who couldn't have cared less about her posturing.  Eventually she grew tired of it but that was post-marriage life for me.  When our child was older we made exchanges at daycare before or after school but that wasn't free.  He aged out of daycare when 12 years old, when he attended middle school.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop,

I've read the updates and I'm going to propose a few very tactical things:

The divorce process is largely transactional. And it plays out on two levels:
- what you demonstrate / offer to your stbx
- what you demonstrate / offer to the court

What do you want right now?  A parenting schedule.
How do you get it?  Stipulations, temp orders, other...
Who/what/when will this happen?  Unclear, but seems to be a high priority!

What does your stbx want right now?  Marriage counseling, which may simply be a delay tactic while she acclimates to this new reality.

Potential response to your stbx (which is, by default, also a letter to the court):
I am not willing to move back in - however agree to marriage counseling if you will agree to a schedule for the kids - and stick to it.  I've prepared an agreement to protect both of us - please let me know what you think.

This demonstrates to your stbx (and to the court) that you the reasonable person who is working on solutions.

It's important to create this sort of documentation - it may be a prophylactic measure, or it may become useful depending on how your case moves forward.

Next: TRO

Not sure how your atty failed to execute on a plan that you've been developing for weeks, months. In theory, a competent atty should be able to walk into court and request emergency orders any time.  That includes this Monday...

If you absolutely cannot even consider negotiating at this point, I would imagine that it may be necessary to file a motion for emergency orders, rather than waiting for a hearing for temporary orders. I will speculate that you didn't get temp orders because your stbx hadn't been served yet, or some other logistical reason that your atty failed to identify or communicate.  I read that you don't want to discuss it.  ok.  but if we don't have some of the facts, we can't provide useful input.

It would be helpful to know: 
- a new plan for orders has been established - y/n?
- you are confident in this plan - y/n?
- you understand the timeline in this plan - y/n?
- you need to consider alternate strategies - y/n?

If you want us to focus on the emotional aspects of what you're going through, we can do that.

But if you're seeking input on the practical aspects, e.g., how to respond to a, b, c...  we're probably going to need a bit more detail about where things stand - beyond what you've provided.

Finally, reading through the text you shared: 

We often observe that disordered individuals invert or project their feelings in ways that are hard to understand.  It sounds like your stbx refers to some deep-seated trauma from childhood, which she feels she needs you to address.

However, after lots of analysis, we usually figure out that what she really needs is to address that wounded child herself...  It might be helpful to try to keep that in mind when reading her messages and listening to her words in the days, weeks, months, years to come: Even if you were to remain married, she needs to do the work to address her unresolved trauma - it's not something that you - or anyone else - can do for her.

If you agree to marriage counseling, you'll need to walk a fine line between protecting yourself and respecting her feelings - however distorted they may be.  But that process might (might!) help you get the agreement that you need, and/or get your stbx into a T process that could, in time, lead to individual T for her.

[Pook075]

I'll offer a different perspective here; not to counter what others have said, but to give more of as picture of hope.

The relationship has been rocky for awhile now and on your end, something had to change.  As you said in the title, you pulled the pin on the grenade and blew it all up.  At the same time though, you did it for the betterment of yourself and your children.

Her reaction, while on a trip in Mexico, is fully expected and not a surprise.  Everyone knew her emotions would be kicked into overdrive and lots of words would be shared.  You knew this before you tossed the grenade, so to speak, and you are not surprised by the outcome.

It hurts nonetheless and it's very hard to deal with.

However, I noticed that you posted in the "conflicted" board.  Maybe that's because you're entering the divorce and custody phase.  I've noticed over the past few years though that regular members often choose this category very carefully to align with their emotions and feelings in the moment.  Personally, I've started threads in all three categories and it really depended on my mindset in that particular moment in time...whether it felt like there was a shred of hope or not.

Moving out is not divorce, and different states have different waiting periods for filing and finalizing a divorce.  As others have said, there's protections and custody steps you must take now, but again...that's not a guarantee of divorce.  In other words, you're not past the point of no return if you don't want to be.

If you were ever to consider marriage counseling, now is the time for countless reasons.  Why?  Because now is the ideal time for your voice to actually be heard.  Maybe it doesn't seem like that right now with endless texts roaring in, but that third party counselor changes everything by moderating those discussions.

I realize you want a different type of counseling, one that starts the divorce process, parenting schedules, and the division of assets.  But why not try marriage counseling first?  I ask that because again, we're in the conflicted category and your actions have made an enormous statement about your intentions- you're not taking the abuse anymore. 

That's fantastic and I applaud you; you've taken back your voice and stood your ground.  That's essential in a BPD relationship and we all know that when this happens, things get worse before they get better.  You've rocked the boat and nobody likes that, but you did it for your own good.  So kudos to you.

Marriage counseling is your one chance before getting down in the weeds to actually be heard and validated.  It may turn out horrible, that's a real possibility, but it also leaves the door open for actual hope.  I feel like it would be a huge mistake to slam that door shut in this moment, when you actually have some momentum and your words have a chance to be taken seriously.

Of course, it's your call and we'll all support you no matter what you decide.  I simply see an opportunity here that could benefit everyone, regardless of the ultimate outcome.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks very succinct eyes up.

The legal stuff I think I have covered for now. In short they blew the plan to obtain emergency orders.the hearing now now set for Monday. Not sure what I’ll do if for some reason the order isn’t signed setting a restraining order and parenting schedule. In the meantime I’ve gathered other names and am looking for a new firm. Too many mistakes I’ve lost faith.

The issue now is the confusing emotional context.

I did this awful thing I told my wife by text I was divorcing her and getting a restraining order and telling the kids while she was out of the country.

It allowed me to have a regulated conversation with the kids and show stability.


Now my wife is back and I don’t have the certainty I thought
My legal team was providing. The kids don’t know when they are going to be where.

Last night my wife dropped off my oldest at the house. Then she hung around on the porch crying about how I’d done this. How she felt misled. How she didn’t know how to get to our money. That she couldn’t believe I’d rented this modern house and the kids have their own rooms here. (It’s extremely comparable to our place she’s just putting feelings on it)

But after yesterday morning where she called me suicidal and I managed that and talked to friends of hers she’d been texting and worried about her now here she is on the porch like this.

Ive got my kids with me at this house for the first time for the night. I’ve got a pizza in the oven. I rented this house two months ago when she was relentlessly pushing me to rent a place. The house needs furniture and just stuff. I feel silly it’s like camping in here.

And I got angry. I’m stressed out about paying for everything. I’m living in a house 1/3 stocked that feels like an airbnb. My 11 yo is being so encouraging and optimistic that I’m really worried she’s trying to make me feel better. (Or she’s just relived the yelling and tension are over). My 13 yo is distant and quiet. (Suppressing feelings or just being 13). My wife feels ill like an energy vampire. She takes my days and I don’t even live with her. I cleared my schedule to manage the suicidality. Work went to the back. Again.

I ended up snapping at her while she stood there so emotional she was shaking. “How many times did you demand I move out in January ALONE? Five? Ten? You want this house? Take it I’ll move into ours!” She starts crying more ‘please just be warmer to me’. I tell I’m going to burn the pizza and go back in. My 13 yo was eavesdropping.

The whole day just made me so confused. At one point during the morning she’s texting me to come back and hold her and let her cry on me and I snap back in a text just spontaneously “I don’t have more to give! My well is empty! I’m tapped out! I can’t sit and listen for hours what a disappointment I am or how bad you feel! I dot have more to give!”

Also during the day I ended up talking with people we know and explaining I’m getting a restraining order due to physical abuse.


So I’m stretched so thin. The house furnishing. The lawyers. My business. The kids feelings. The kids lives. My extended family. Our money and debt. My wife’s emotional problems. My guilt about those.  Our friends. Her friends. The way I did this. Worried about how My actions now affect any attempt  to manage the family into a post divorce equilibrium.

I want to plan my business growth. I want to laugh with my kids and have it be summer and hard but stable and get a dog. I want to take them places and have quiet nonconsequential moments. I want to have sex. I want to save more than I spend.

[CravingPeace]

"I want to plan my business growth. I want to laugh with my kids and have it be summer and hard but stable and get a dog. I want to take them places and have quiet nonconsequential moments. I want to have sex. I want to save more than I spend."

Ouch this hit me so hard. I feel exactly the same way all my emotions are drained, my nervous system is shot, my business did at least 50% growth a year, since I have been married to uBPD it has been flat with so many problems, I only asked the question could it be my relationship this year. I feel my optimism and hope drained too tired managing the instability at home .

I realised always managing her emotions, even planning a fun day out fills me with dread, as no doubt something wont be how she expected it and I will get silent treatment or worse. But yes it would be nice to have sex one day, and not have to carry the blame that we dont because I make her depressed, or I don't make her feel emotionally cared for, or I dont do enough whrn I am doing everything I can.

I am so sorry what you are going through. But hear this. It is always darkest before dawn.

Wishing you the best, stay strong and try not to second guess and get drawn into the FOG, for me G is the worst. You have been badly abused and its not your fault.

[AlleyOop23]

If I posted this in “conflicted”
Instead of “strategy” it was just a mistake. I am not great with details. I have three threads going.

My fear with cojlunselingnisnthat I’ll get sucked in. That my obligation will be triggered.

[Tangled mangled]

If I posted this in “conflicted”
Instead of “strategy” it was just a mistake. I am not great with details. I have three threads going.

My fear with cojlunselingnisnthat I’ll get sucked in. That my obligation will be triggered.

Those are valid concerns re:being sucked back into the prison you just escaped. I remember when I was at the stage you are in, I just couldn’t bear the thought of spending another minute talking about the issues in the marriage with a counsellor when I ve already spent countless of hours arguing over meaningless crap.
Everyone has a limit to how much of this mess they can still tolerate at the end- for another second or minute in counselling was going to do more damage than it was worth.
Know your limit- looks like you have reached it already. You must be aching to get back to some normalcy again. Give yourself the permission to accept your limits without judgement.

[once removed]

The issue now is the confusing emotional context.

i dont have legal advice; i think youre getting the best of the best of that already. i hope youll lean on it.

I did this awful thing I told my wife by text I was divorcing her and getting a restraining order and telling the kids while she was out of the country.

i think this was a move that, well, you aptly described in the title of your OP. i would have strongly recommended against it. i also understand why you did it. and, regardless, it is done.

now theres the fallout; what happens (is happening) after the grenade goes off.

Then she hung around on the porch crying about how I’d done this. How she felt misled. How she didn’t know how to get to our money. That she couldn’t believe I’d rented this modern house and the kids have their own rooms here. (It’s extremely comparable to our place she’s just putting feelings on it)

reading her texts to you, as an outsider, is a very hard read. i can only imagine it is far harder for you, as someone involved. her pain is palpable, and i certainly dont believe you relish in it. i do suspect that your anger and resentment (long held, and valid) are piling on top of it. i also understand, of course, that there are distortions in what she expresses (certain facts might be wrong, unwilling or unable to take responsibility, bpd flavoring, etc). i also understand that anyone in her position would feel how she feels, and that anyone in your position would feel how you feel.

my father was a family lawyer. i know very little about law in general, but i prepared his case files, and i read through them fervently. my impression was that quite often (with plenty of exceptions), in high conflict divorces, there isnt a clear bad guy, but two people fighting against each other for what they want (as they were in the relationship). you both want peace. you have, right now, competing ideas of what that looks like. you want as far away as possible from her. she wants the pain to go away.

fighting her for your idea of peace (whether it was the manner of the split, ignoring her, or blowing off steam/losing your cool at her) is resulting in more conflict, and less peace for you (both of you).

i think that that is why the importance of staying centered was stressed. your immediate self interest, while it isnt wrong, how youre going about trying to obtain it is making this less stable.  

My 13 yo is distant and quiet. (Suppressing feelings or just being 13). My wife feels ill like an energy vampire. She takes my days and I don’t even live with her. I cleared my schedule to manage the suicidality. Work went to the back. Again.
...
She starts crying more ‘please just be warmer to me’. I tell I’m going to burn the pizza and go back in. My 13 yo was eavesdropping.

i can promise you that no matter what the state of the home is, your 13 year old is not finding stability in being uprooted and separated from mom. and more than likely, watching that take place, shes not understanding the nuances of how difficult someone with BPD can be, or seeing that its best for the two of you to be apart. more than likely, she sees her mom outside, shaking, begging, and shes probably wondering "why cant dad just be nice".

while you cant fix what her mom is going through, and you cant fix everything your daughter is going through either, and you cant always be a model example of "how to do high conflict divorce "right"" (i understand how difficult your wife has been, is being, and we cant always keep our cool), you can do your best to keep your eye on the long game, work to remain centered, and even blow off steam in constructive ways (like posting here).

but the best way to "win", is not to fight. situations like this are best handled by "learning to bend without breaking". what might initially feel like appeasement toward someone who has wronged you, is often the best (or least bad) way to ensure your peace, and in this case, your childrens.

I want to plan my business growth. I want to laugh with my kids and have it be summer and hard but stable and get a dog. I want to take them places and have quiet nonconsequential moments. I want to have sex. I want to save more than I spend.

you also have a marriage to grieve. first things first, yes?

[livednlearned]

Really great advice and insight from once removed.

It's good to read it a few times.

My only addition is to suggest you discuss your GAD/ADHD medication with a psychiatrist to make sure your team of advisors all know what you're going through.

I was prescribed medication for ADD that in retrospect was like adding gasoline to fire

During the period you're at I developed an eye twitch and was on my way to losing a concerning amount of weight, not to mention what turned out to be reversible grey hair which is apparently a thing.

It might be worth asking your T to increase visits.

This is really hard stuff and it does not stay this hot although certainly it does not cool off as quickly as we like.

We're here for you. Keep posting.

[AlleyOop23]

I cannot for the life of me figure out how you people do the boxed excerpt thing. It must be easy and obvious it’s got to be here somewhere, but I cannot figure it out

Once removed, he would’ve strongly recommended against me doing what I did? I was concerned I would be pulled into an altercation, taken away by the police, gotten stuck with a no contact order, and traumatize my children as they watch me get led away in handcuffs. I begged her to walk back those threats. I was kicked out of the house and cried in my pillow afraid my children were about to be taken away from me. I consulted with therapists but divorce coach lawyers, and I agonized over this choice for weeks and I’m dragging guilt around dealing with it. I believed that what I was doing was largely in my children’s interest and not in my self interest though I I did do it in part for my own safety.

If you think there’s a way I could’ve done this better. I’d like to hear it because it would give me compassion for my wife’s situation, knowing that I could’ve done better. It also enable me to be able to tell the children without her which presented them with a vision of stability. They would not. Otherwise I’ve gotten if I had attempted to do it together.

[AlleyOop23]

I’m sure I don’t know much of what’s going on in my 13-year-old head but I can say that I am absolutely certain that there is no way that kid is wondering why her dad isn’t nicer to her mom

[GaGrl]

I’m sure I don’t know much of what’s going on in my 13-year-old head but I can say that I am absolutely certain that there is no way that kid is wondering why her dad isn’t nicer to her mom

To this...

By the time my husband's three children were in their teens, all of them were asking why he didn't divorce their mother.

One of the primary issues in their marriage was her constant and blatant infidelities. The 12-year-old daughter actually walked into the living room one night to find her mother having sex with "a friend" on the living room floor. Dad was stationed elsewhere in the state at the time, came home on weekends, and received a letter from his daughter telling her dad what she saw.

So yes, if you are sure of your 13-year-old's grasp of the marital situation, you are probably on the money.

And yes, the way your separation happened was unfortunate and "ugly," but there have been other and worse separations.

I'm not sure you are anywhere near being in the same room with your wife for counselors by or mediation until your raw feelings have had time to subside.

[Skip]

Once removed, he would’ve strongly recommended against me doing what I did? I was concerned I would be pulled into an altercation, taken away by the police, gotten stuck with a no contact order, and traumatize my children as they watch me get led away in handcuffs. I begged her to walk back those threats. I was kicked out of the house and cried in my pillow afraid my children were about to be taken away from me. I consulted with therapists but divorce coach lawyers, and I agonized over this choice for weeks and I’m dragging guilt around dealing with it. I believed that what I was doing was largely in my children’s interest and not in my self interest though I I did do it in part for my own safety.

Opp,

1) People here did encourage you not to go in so heavy.

2) In looking back, your fears were disproportionate for the situation. You called it wrong.

Learn from it. We all make mistakes in family court. The important thing is to see it, and be open minded enough to adjust.

A) Look at who gave you the best advice and worst (I know you consulted many) and refine your support network.

B) Look at what has transpired and deal with the situation at hand (not your fears).

You're getting advice to right now to:

i) Stay focused on the final outcomes. You get 50% by showing the court that you are a mature and reasonable guy with good judgement who can work with his ex-wife and co-parent.

ii) Get the mechanics of the divorce in place. Temporary orders, parenting schedule. Then get a more balanced attorney to carry you through discovery, valuations, etc,.settlement.

iii) Take your wife up on the counseling. If nothing else, it will provide a venue for controlled release of tensions rather than have her lying in your front yard crying while express your frustration and burn your pizza -  the children don't need to hear/see this. You can also talk immediately about how to best co-parent while sorting things out. And you can have a professional help you explore where you two are and where you are going. A few session - a months.

I'm not sure you are anywhere near being in the same room with your wife for counselors by or mediation until your raw feelings have had time to subside.

This is the wildcard. Do you have the strength and resolve to do this? Or do you need for this to be no contact/functional contact only divorce?

[AlleyOop23]

I don’t think I called it wrong and don’t understand why you do.

[AlleyOop23]

Honestly he criticism and judgment just make me feel awful. I did and am doing my best given everything this has been the worst week of my life

[AlleyOop23]

I already felt like I was ruining everyone’s life, including mine

[once removed]

Alleyoop, please try to separate criticism from judgment of you as a person, a parent, or a spouse. It is the difference maker going forward; what you are in control of, in a chaotic situation.

What is required right now, is strength, focus and clarity (staying centered), at a time that is probably hardest of all.

It's required to cope with the torrent of your wife's emotions and heart string pulling.

It's required to help your children adjust and thrive.

It's required for a more peaceful situation for you.

It's not going to be easy, none of it. We know. But it's the way you come out on top of all of this.

[At Bay]

No one knows what would have happened trying other ways to get away from a very bad situation. I would expect, either way, there would be intimidation to return to her house. Making it look as if you’re the mean spouse is interesting. 

I’ve heard that we are our own best counselors, and when I trusted that, the paths I chose turned out to be right for me.

You’ve put a lot of thought into what needed to be done, and I don’t think you’re wrong.

[Skip]

Sorry to upset you AO. I know this is a difficult time.

2) In looking back, your fears were disproportionate for the situation. You called it wrong.

I was narrowly referring to your fears of what would happen (e.g. police cars and handcuffs) vs what did happen. And I said it in the context of factoring in this new information in you decision making going forward.

[ForeverDad]

A generally wise concept...

The most risky time for a spouse (especially the male) is immediately before, during and after the separation.

Tensions are high, emotions are raw, wild things are claimed.  More so, the disordered spouse is highly likely to create or foment an "incident" so that the spouse can claim, "He is worse than me! ... Which is why I have to get him carted off or arrested, thereby justifying he's the problem and deserves punishment forever, sentenced to anger management classes, and punishment forever.  Oh, did I say punishment forever?  Good, he deserves it because I'm so upset and he is Mr Evil Personified and I've never loved him and more than anything else they're my children, not his, so ..."

Get the idea?  Whether deserved or not, during all that emotional download explosion, you're at risk of legal consequences if you're not careful.  One of the ways to avoid the worst of the immediate risk is to either (1) never be around her until everything has calmed down and stabilized or (2) ensure you always have other adults as witnesses that you're not doing anything improper.

For example, sometimes mediation is so tense that the spouses sit in separate rooms and the mediator walks back and forth.  I don't know how to approach that with marriage or couples counseling.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop - Good luck - We'll be thinking of you on Monday.

[At Bay]

Many female abuse victims have to pack bags for themselves and kids in secret, sneak away to live in a shelter or accept temporary living conditions with friends or family, and then face upheavals of all sorts. I think people still call that being brave and smart.

A friend of mine works at a shelter and was a former victim, but one day her adult kids asked police to standby while they told her spouse they were taking her clothes and nothing else out of the house, and to consider her gone. She’s told me moving out was hard when life suddenly looked so different being focused on many unknowns at once including legal judgments, compared to years of thinking about just one thing: leaving.

You could have what I call “battle fatigue.” It affected my son during a divorce that he and his ex-wife both wanted. Used up lots of his endless energy followed by feelings of weakness and doubt that took him by surprise.

[livednlearned]

AlleyOop, you doing ok?

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks for asking.  I’m doing okay. I feel like I’m driving through the woods at night with no lights while throwing money out the window.

My wife is starting intensive outpatient care for depression  found a therapist. I agreed to hold off serving her until she is in care. The kids are back and forth on a set 50/50 schedule.

They come over here and retire to their rooms and I check on them but don’t intrude. It’s not a tight ship over here right now. Nobody knows where things are.

They don’t have their own rooms at the other house. So they hole up with their cheap furniture and books or text w friends and I refrain from asking them how they’re doing and sometimes they decide to tell me on their own.


Work sleep exercise and self care all need a lot of attention.

[kells76]

Hey, good to hear from you -- thanks for updating.

My wife is starting intensive outpatient care for depression  found a therapist. I agreed to hold off serving her until she is in care. The kids are back and forth on a set 50/50 schedule.

Her getting IOP treatment is new, so adjusting your plan in light of that makes sense. Glad you both could agree on 50/50 -- so important for your kids that Dad and Mom can be on the same page.

They come over here and retire to their rooms and I check on them but don’t intrude. It’s not a tight ship over here right now. Nobody knows where things are.

Having a "light touch" sounds normal for teen/preteen girls and a new "Mom's house/Dad's house" situation. Ours are 15.5 & 18 and I've done the "check but don't intrude too much" for a few years.

Would you say your girls are old enough to give some input about where they want things to be at Dad's house?

They don’t have their own rooms at the other house. So they hole up with their cheap furniture and books or text w friends and I refrain from asking them how they’re doing and sometimes they decide to tell me on their own.

That's really positive that they will sometimes seek you out and share their feelings.

...

Any new "Dad's house" traditions you'd like to start?

We did "international food night" on Fridays and rotated whose turn it was to pick a country. Gave us something to talk about at dinner, and the kids felt like they had some say/input that was taken seriously.

[ForeverDad]

You are in the midst of big changes.  And one is almost unexpected, that your spouse is being assessed and treated.  Most likely the large part is therapy.  However, very soon they'll want to transition her to outpatient status.  That - and how that change may impact you - is something to consider.

Did she hit bottom and now can start her climb upwards?  That's a huge maybe, perhaps even unlikely to ascertain at this early stage, the reality is that it may be years before you can have confidence there is real and sufficient recovery.

Here is where the OG part of FOG probably becomes more pronounced... BPD F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

She - or the changed situation that she is in professional hands for now - may pressure you to reset the clock and retreat from your new boundaries.  Many here have faced that dilemma.  This is where the sense of Obligation or even Guilt may overwhelm your sense of what needs to be done.

Since there may be predictable "helpless me, save me" entreaties be mentally and emotionally prepared to deal with that.

Same goes if she reacts with "it's all your fault!"  Be prepared either way.
 

[At Bay]

One thing about teens/kids staying in their rooms. When we visited our out-of-state son and his blended family 2 yrs ago, we could tell he’d told the girls not to go upstairs to their rooms while we were there, so that we could visit or share things with them.

But, so different the next time we saw them when the family flew to our state, and some of the girls were teens, because they all spent time in their rooms except for meals. Our son had apparently changed the rules, which was fine because when we went places with them, they were kind and polite, and also at breakfast before they disappeared to their rooms. Their peers and interests made them happy and occupied in a way that made perfect sense to them.

When it was time to fly back to their state, they even left the car to return for 2nd hugs on the porch. So we decided the girls’ absences were likely teen behavior for these times.

[AlleyOop23]

Eerie. She’s all in on helpless save me I’m sorry I don’t know what’s happening to me will you consider trying again after some separation? She says she only feels calm talking to me. It tugs at me. It’s okay now because I believe her mind just wants the pain to go away as quickly as possible.

But then today she picked up a kid got out of the car and told me how to park my car.

[EyesUp]

@Alley,

On two occasions, my uBPDxw was admitted to a hospital for psychiatric evaluation. These were voluntary admissions, but the way it works in my state, once admitted an individual may held against their will based on the outcome of the eval.  The eval included taking statements from my xw's T (who she had not seen in months), from her PCP, and from me.

On both occasions, my xw freaked out - "I don't belong here" and "I'm not crazy" - she was, after all - in a white room with a bed with no sheets and no sharp objects - and able to see that most of the other people in for evaluation appeared to be non-functional: homeless, drug ODs, or violent episodes, etc. - what I heard at that time was "All I want is to be with you and the kids" and "if the idea was for me to be scared straight, it worked."   When the psych called and asked if I felt that my xw would pose a danger to me, herself, or the kids, I said no.  She was released on the same day.

In retrospect, I should have let her remain for the full eval. Within a day or two of returning home, my xw developed huge resentment toward me. Her narrative quickly shifted to "you set me up" and "you are manipulative and abusive" - she could not process her role in her circumstances, and she ignored multiple professionals in her orbit (T, MC, PsyD, a detective assigned to a 911 call...) who, she decided, were all against her - and manipulated by me.

Obviously our circumstances are a bit different - however, these are some of the themes to watch for and guard against in the days and weeks to come.

I'd say that if your W can demonstrate authentic and persistent self awareness, remorse, genuine concern for you and the kids, and desire and ability to make change - well, that's progress. It's also a lot to hope for, from anyone in a high conflict relationship - but especially where a PD may be part of the mix.

Short of a clear commitment to long-term change that originates within her - no one will fault you for protecting your kids, or yourself.

We'll be thinking of you.

[Pook075]

In retrospect, I should have let her remain for the full eval. Within a day or two of returning home, my xw developed huge resentment toward me. Her narrative quickly shifted to "you set me up" and "you are manipulative and abusive"

My experiences are similar with my BPD daughter, and I can somewhat understand how difficult it would be to go from "the whole world is against me" to "maybe I'm not seeing this correctly." 

I've had "real" moments of clarity with both by BPD kid and BPD ex, and lately my ex has made several statements about how badly she's hurt me.  In my mind, I want to believe that everything is now okay...everything can be fixed...but those admissions and insights are often just small blips in time and not their actual reality.

Like others have said, it's the "og" in FOG.  I've let go of the fear, but the obligation and guilt are still closer to the surface than I'd like to admit.  Love doesn't just vanish and we all know that these relationships are complicated.

Real change takes time, and it's completely up to you whether or not you want to try enduring that change.  I will always recommend trying to reconcile but at the same time, it's not my life and your circumstances are unique.  Maybe a compromise would be to continue on the path you're on, but also try to lend support as she navigates this process?

Just keep us in the loop and let us know what we can do to help.

[livednlearned]

Eerie. She’s all in on helpless save me I’m sorry I don’t know what’s happening to me will you consider trying again after some separation? She says she only feels calm talking to me. It tugs at me. It’s okay now because I believe her mind just wants the pain to go away as quickly as possible.

But then today she picked up a kid got out of the car and told me how to park my car.

How are you feeling in response to this?

Are you noticing changes in how your kids are behaving (assuming they know mom is getting treatment)?

[AlleyOop23]

They actually don’t know. She is ashamed and resentful and says I should be “ doing this too”. I really wish that she would tell them. I think they would feel better knowing that she is getting help, that her behavior is in personal to them, and that they are perception that some of her behavior isn’t quite right is correct.

It’s hard to imagine reconciling. I find it while the big incidents are easier to describe and communicate, and for her to at least understand, it is all the little jabs and Diggs and disrespect and subtle little ways that hurt more. In addition, as my therapist pointed out in these long apology emails there is literally nothing about me or my needs

I think this kind of analysis isn’t really relevant. She’s one day into an IOP and whether that translates into meaningful sustained committed work is completely unknown.

The thing I noticed the most was that she was occupied all day in the program, and I have one of the best days I’ve had in about as long as I can remember. While I am willing to interact and help, I do not enjoy engaging with her at all right now,

I actually deeply appreciate the experiences sharing above, which serve excellent reminders to me of the ease with which attitudes in prevailing mood can change.

Well, I am far from the end of this journey. When it’s over or at least close enough to feel an earned reward I will return to Graceland as the kitchen is now open and I’ve not seen it and I will add a tattoo of AlleyOop To my collection

[PeteWitsend]

They actually don’t know. She is ashamed and resentful and says I should be “ doing this too”. I really wish that she would tell them. I think they would feel better knowing that she is getting help, that her behavior is in personal to them, and that they are perception that some of her behavior isn’t quite right is correct.

It’s hard to imagine reconciling. I find it while the big incidents are easier to describe and communicate, and for her to at least understand, it is all the little jabs and Diggs and disrespect and subtle little ways that hurt more. In addition, as my therapist pointed out in these long apology emails there is literally nothing about me or my needs

I think this kind of analysis isn’t really relevant. She’s one day into an IOP and whether that translates into meaningful sustained committed work is completely unknown.

The thing I noticed the most was that she was occupied all day in the program, and I have one of the best days I’ve had in about as long as I can remember. While I am willing to interact and help, I do not enjoy engaging with her at all right now,

I actually deeply appreciate the experiences sharing above, which serve excellent reminders to me of the ease with which attitudes in prevailing mood can change.

Well, I am far from the end of this journey. When it’s over or at least close enough to feel an earned reward I will return to Graceland as the kitchen is now open and I’ve not seen it and I will add a tattoo of AlleyOop To my collection

If you wish your kids knew about your soon-to-be-ex getting treatment, why not tell them?  This is a decision you need to make on your own, without regard to the whims of the disordered party, who is not capable of considering others' needs, or doing what's best for them. 

As far as guilt and obligations to the pwBPD... I would sometimes feel guilty about ending the marriage and moving on.  But by reminding myself how I felt while in the midst of one of her angry and uncalled for meltdowns, along with the resentment afterward, helped me over that.  She never had any concern for me, for the stress I was under at work, for my relations with my friends and family, for what our daughter thought of me or my relationship with her.  Now, after years of that, I'm supposed to be concerned she's upset that I stopped taking her mental and emotional abuse and caretaking her?  Nope. 

And also, like you alluded to with your parking comment, it's hard to take their pleas for sympathy and forgiveness seriously when you've seen them immediately shift from one emotion to the other with no concern or self-awareness. 

I mentioned it in another thread, but after I moved out and filed for divorce, probably for the first few days after, all I got was anger and insults from uBPDxw.  Then it shifted to begging me to reconsider and promises to do everything to change.  I didn't answer or respond.

Months later, I heard from a mutual friend that at a party around that time, uBPDxw told her that she didn't care for me or love me, but tried to stop the divorce because she just didn't want to go through with the hassle of it and pay so much money to attorneys.  So... who knows?  As you've experienced, they really will say and do whatever they feel they have to in the moment, to get what they want.  It's hard to put stock in any of it. 

I'm sure on some level, their emotions are valid and relatable to a non-disordered person, but they shift so unpredictably and to such extremes, as to really be unfathomable at times. 

It's good you're able to finally enjoy some peace and quiet.  Relax when you can and also appreciate the time you'll be able to spend with your kids without the specter of meltdowns and angry tantrums from the pwBPD. 

[ForeverDad]

The thing I noticed the most was that she was occupied all day in the program, and I have one of the best days I’ve had in about as long as I can remember.

My preschooler and I experienced something similar.  I commented at the time that the silence was deafening.

Another surprise was that when I thought to be "fair" and mention her while she was 'away' he stopped me and made me resume mixing cookie batter.

Sadly, to this day I have no indication my ex ever had therapy.  Yes, after a decade the conflict has been reduced as long as I am careful not to trigger her, but I credit the reduction to (1) me eventually getting both custody and majority parenting time as well as (2) son growing older and now as an adult out of the system for four years now.

Do not let the mental health assessment get cut short by her pleading with you to agree to an early release.  She needs this observation, testing, assessment and professional guidance.  This is part of her consequences, let her be an adult and handle it.

I don't see any reason to halt the legal process either since (1) there's no way at this point in time to know whether she will make progress to sufficient recovery, (2) recovery would take time, probably years, while your children need stability now, and (3) if she really does recover then - years from now - you both could calmly and without pressure or manipulation decide whether it was wise to get remarried.

[livednlearned]

They actually don’t know. She is ashamed and resentful and says I should be “ doing this too”. I really wish that she would tell them. I think they would feel better knowing that she is getting help, that her behavior is in personal to them, and that they are perception that some of her behavior isn’t quite right is correct.

Remind us how old your kids are?

Some of the trickiest conversations with my son happened with a therapist in the room. I can't say enough about how helpful it is to have a skilled communicator helping to navigate difficult, complex, confusing conversations with kids. We get very immersed in our anxieties, it can be helpful to have a therapist thread needles with and for us, so the kids aren't trying to puzzle through crazy stuff by developing their own often incorrect and sometimes damaging narratives.

Is that in the realm of possibility for you?

[ForeverDad]

While you certainly wouldn't share adult matters with the kids, their lives are impacted so you want as little worry for them.  Not knowing can feel worse than knowing.  Or maybe they have a bit of relief from her overwhelming presence?

Would your therapist be amenable to seeing you and the children together soon so that some guidance and expertise are on hand as you share some information about "the invisible elephant in the room"?

The walls do have ears, you know.  If their mother isn't available and exchanges aren't happening right now, they surely have questions.  Even if you don't have all the answers, likely something is better than nothing.  After all, it's not like you can pretend nothing has happened, she's off on vacation or communing on a distant mountaintop.

[EyesUp]

Hey @AlleyOop - How are you doing?

[AlleyOop23]

Hello all. Today I’m just sad.  I miss my kids. I miss the hopeful fantasy potential of my marriage. I miss familiar routines.

Right now the kids activities and schedule make it difficult for my stbx and I to avoid crossing over into each others days. I am a little daunted by what it will take to release myself from the gravitational pull of the orbit around her. When people ask how I’m doing they eventually have to prompt me to stop talking about her. She’s struggling and I am describing how I’m doing by sharing that she’s struggling (so obviously i am codependently struggling as well).

She was in an intensive outpatient program. That tied her up all day which was pretty nice. Now she believes she went “for both of us” and that we both have mental health work to do. She blames me for how she feels and has no accountability for the incidents that prompted all this.

Here’s the advice I could use. We have 13 yo’s bat mitzvah in 3 weeks. I’m trying to keep all peace I can until then.

However she wants to put the divorce on hold and do couples counseling and ‘see where it goes.’ She doesn’t want a divorce. Also she’s still in the bargaining and denial phase. She wants to call it a separation. Or we go to improve communication and understanding of each other.

I want to do everything I can for a possible workable post divorce coparenting life. My kids just want us to get along. That’s what they talk about. I have this compulsion to have her internalize and understand her own abusive tendencies in the hope that MAYBE my kids will bear less of it. She’s already had her eyes opened to
Some damage she’s done to her relationship with our kids.

I wonder if just going no contact would be healthier for me. But o think that makes our kids lives harder.


I do actually want to do counseling around communication and coparenting if that can be constructive. She wants to do family counseling which might help the kids.

But she’s still raw I feel it’s too soon for all that.


I wonder about others experiences.  Finding the line between keeping the peace and unhealthy caretwking.


Having said all rhat it’s really nice to come home and not get tense and anxious when I turn into the driveway.

[ForeverDad]

She blames me for how she feels and has no accountability for the incidents that prompted all this.

However she wants to put the divorce on hold and do couples counseling and ‘see where it goes.’ She doesn’t want a divorce. Also she’s still in the bargaining and denial phase. She wants to call it a separation. Or we go to improve communication and understanding of each other.

Yet you know she will revert to past patterns and cycles, more or less.  Her "struggling" now is a part of her consequence.  Recovery - if it ever happens - would be a years-long struggle.  Yet you can't do it for her.

Here's a perspective... In a manner of speaking, the divorce process is a type of separation until the final decree.

When people ask how I’m doing they eventually have to prompt me to stop talking about her. She’s struggling and I am describing how I’m doing by sharing that she’s struggling (so obviously i am codependently struggling as well).

This happened to us too.  I recall when I reached out and spoke with an old friend from decades ago, she noticed how I was "circling the drain" focused on my ongoing stress.  In my case I was risking a 'rebound' relationship yet was still preoccupied with the past one.  That is why the advice is to wait and recover a bit before seeking a new or renewed relationship.

What would apply to you is to try to focus your comments on topics concerning yourself and your children.

[EyesUp]

@Alley,

Adding to FD's perspective... the D (and even post-D) process can be viewed as a series of negotiations.  When you share kids, you don't truly have the option to go NC - but you can aim for LC. 

You can construct a parenting plan that will minimize direct interactions, e.g., I pickup and dropoff the kids' stuff on my uBPDxw's porch when she is not home, and the kids transition while they are at school, i.e., my X drops them off, I pick them up.

We do cross paths at certain times, e.g., parent-teacher conferences, other school events, some extra curriculars...  it's inevitable.

How about this:  Putting the kids first, consider accepting your stbx's proposal for the weeks leading up to the bat mitzvah.  It's probably the right thing for the kid.  You don't need to dive in to MC or FC immediately, just signal that D is on hold so everyone can focus on the event.

Try to do what you can to minimize direct engagement - try to push communication to email - I avoid txt to reduce urgency and frankly because it's a PITA to constantly screenshot everything. 

Obviously you're going to need to coexist in the same space for the bat mitzvah, and this might be a good way to show the kids that you can both put issues aside for them - it's a very healthy precedent for what needs to follow in the years to come.

It doesn't sound like the bigger question about pausing the D after the bat mitzvah is something you want to seriously entertain. So consider if the FC option would be, in any way, helpful to your kids.

I've actually proposed it a few times, my uBPDxw always shoots it down.  I don't think that my X is would be a reliable narrator or fair participant, but I recognize that the process might be beneficial for the kids.  Selfishly, I'd welcome the chance to show the kids that I will listen to them, and even to my X - without being overreactive, etc.  Without that 'safe space' for such interaction, I hesitate to communicate with my kids about certain things at all, for fear that they will think I'm somehow being unfair to their mom, or putting them in the middle.  I really take pains to avoid that.  So maybe your chance to try FC is actually an opportunity?

It sounds like your solo time offers some release / relief - glad to hear it.