Not even planning to leave

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all,

reaching out to get some outside perspective what's going on with me...

I read a thread here about someone who just left his wife. Lately my attention span hasn't been well, it takes a lot of energy to focus on things and I have to deliberately set my mind into doing something, otherwise I have no motivation. This is probably due to stress, depression and/or obsessive hobbies. But that post about leaving was easy to concentrate on even if I hadn't planned on reading any posts.

I guess it's something that really lights a fire in me, thinking about leaving. Yet I haven't had any realistic thoughts about leaving for over a year. I see obstacles related to timing - my two boys birthdays in march and june, summer plans, christmas. And only a few short periods of time when it's possible. And my own emotional obstacles - breaking someones heart, dropping the bomb etc. And I lack a driving force to go through with anything. As soon as the dust settles after a stressful incident, I loose the spark.

What's new is that she's constantly talking about several men who are in love with her (including my dear cousin), it's very delusional but she's very convinced. If someone looks at her because they find her attractive, she interprets it as deep love for her.
The positive thing about this is that she keeps talking about leaving me, that she has a lot of options, which makes me feel hopeful that I could leave her and mainly cause anger in her - not just hopelessness and sadness or whatever. I can handle the anger better.

[15years]

Hi all,

reaching out to get some outside perspective what's going on with me...

I read a thread here about someone who just left his wife. Lately my attention span hasn't been well, it takes a lot of energy to focus on things and I have to deliberately set my mind into doing something, otherwise I have no motivation. This is probably due to stress, depression and/or obsessive hobbies. But that post about leaving was easy to concentrate on even if I hadn't planned on reading any posts.

I guess it's something that really lights a fire in me, thinking about leaving. Yet I haven't had any realistic thoughts about leaving for over a year. I see obstacles related to timing - my two boys birthdays in march and june, summer plans, christmas. And only a few short periods of time when it's possible. And my own emotional obstacles - breaking someones heart, dropping the bomb etc. And I lack a driving force to go through with anything. As soon as the dust settles after a stressful incident, I loose the spark.

What's new is that she's constantly talking about several men who are in love with her (including my dear cousin), it's very delusional but she's very convinced. If someone looks at her because they find her attractive, she interprets it as deep love for her.
The positive thing about this is that she keeps talking about leaving me, that she has a lot of options, which makes me feel hopeful that I could leave her and mainly cause anger in her - not just hopelessness and sadness or whatever. I can handle the anger better.

[Pook075]

Hey 15years,

If you're thinking about leaving and she's threatened to leave, then what's stopping you from having an ultra-honest conversation to talk out your emotions and where you stand?  Why not just lay your cards on the table about what's challenging in the relationship (for example, everyone who she thinks is in love with her)?

If you're waiting for the "perfect time" to consider walking away, that instance may never come.  But you will continue to build resentment and that's not a good thing for anyone.

[Notwendy]

I think we have seen through your posts- and posters have made this point: your wife has disordered thinking- so she imagined you were in love with other women, they were after you- when none of that was happening. So she can imagine this with others being in love with her too.

I think on your part, you are in "survival mode"- and so are already doing what you can to manage the household and being a parent and also being able to somehow co-exist with your wife's thinking.

I think if someone truly wants to leave their marriage- they will take action. It's not easy to leave, or stay- but if someone wants to leave- they will do it otherwise the other option is that they stay.

On her part, I don't know for certain what she will do but my BPD mother would discuss leaving but didn't act on it. I don't think she would have left. If you are waiting for your wife to take action, that is still not acting on this yourself. It may or may not happen.

[ForeverDad]

Yet I haven't had any realistic thoughts about leaving for over a year. I see obstacles related to timing - my two boys birthdays in march and june, summer plans, christmas. And only a few short periods of time when it's possible. And my own emotional obstacles - breaking someones heart, dropping the bomb etc. And I lack a driving force to go through with anything. As soon as the dust settles after a stressful incident, I loose the spark.

As Pook wrote, there is no perfect time to take action.  If you're waiting for a clear sign then you've be playing a defensive game, not a proactive game.  Think, what competitive team will win a game it plays defensively?  They all plan and strategize to succeed, sitting waiting for a break is not a strategy.

My own experience was that although I had done a couple things to prepare for the looming future, mostly just creating a personal account separate from our marital joint account, I was relatively unprepared.  Actually, by her actions she forced me to open that account.  And when we did separate, it was because I told the police how she vehemently threatened my life in one of her rages (which I recorded) and so our separation started with me given possession of our home in a temp protection order.

Other than that I was unprepared.  No lawyer for court.  No access to peer support.  The therapist I tried seemed focused 100% on my FOO (family of origin) and not offered not one bit of advice for my ongoing spousal conflict.  It was hard the first couple years since divorce took nearly two years.  But life was manageable and gradually got better.  It took years but I ended up being the majority time parent.

You mentioned events throughout the year prevent you from taking action.  Look at me - and others too.  Kids' birthdays?  Holidays every month or two?  Hey, they're going to be impacted, probably already are anyway.  Take me, I was in divorce for two years, that was two years of impact.  How could I ever have timed a separation and divorce in between holidays?  I couldn't.

What did I learn?  Surprise, court would split the holidays between the parents.  The only exception was mother always gets Mother's Day and fathers always get Father's Day.  Even birthdays were handled, they were just alternated across two years.

Guess what?  We parents figured out solutions.  We always had the kids at least on alternate weekends.  So even when we only got half the holidays each year, we decided to make the best of sharing the kids.  This year mother got Independence Day?  That's no problem, we just would have our own Independence Day on the prior or next visit.  Kids adjust to that... imagine the kids realizing they get two of each holiday and celebration, one with dad and one with mom!

We here are solution oriented.  Yes, our lot is not the best and is often painful but we manage to make omelettes our of our cracked eggs, so to speak.

So... can you morph your outlook on your trials and tribulations and see that you can find success in your life, not every day, sometimes not every week, but overall you can take back control of your life?  Can you look up from your immediate woes and see that there are ways to succeed as a father even if you have to handle some bad to get some good?

[once removed]

What's new is that she's constantly talking about several men who are in love with her (including my dear cousin), it's very delusional but she's very convinced. If someone looks at her because they find her attractive, she interprets it as deep love for her.
The positive thing about this is that she keeps talking about leaving me, that she has a lot of options

is it a possibility that shes trying (and not necessarily in a deliberate, conscious way, but one in which an insecure person might find a sense of security) to induce jealousy in you, in order to feel more secure about the relationship?

eg "youd better do something, you could lose me"?

[livednlearned]

is it a possibility that shes trying (and not necessarily in a deliberate, conscious way, but one in which an insecure person might find a sense of security) to induce jealousy in you, in order to feel more secure about the relationship?

eg "youd better do something, you could lose me"?

That's my read too.

She wants you to find her attractive in the way she says these others do.

She's hurting, she'd like you to hurt too. She'd like someone to love her, she'd like you to love her too (like these other men do).

What do you say when she says so-and-so is attracted to her?

[15years]

If you're thinking about leaving and she's threatened to leave, then what's stopping you from having an ultra-honest conversation to talk out your emotions and where you stand?

True, that would be reasonable. I’m not sure how I would plan that conversation.

I think on your part, you are in "survival mode"- and so are already doing what you can to manage the household and being a parent and also being able to somehow co-exist with your wife's thinking.

Thank you that is exactly what is going on.

I think if someone truly wants to leave their marriage- they will take action. It's not easy to leave, or stay- but if someone wants to leave- they will do it otherwise the other option is that they stay.

On her part, I don't know for certain what she will do but my BPD mother would discuss leaving but didn't act on it. I don't think she would have left. If you are waiting for your wife to take action, that is still not acting on this yourself. It may or may not happen.

I’m not sure how to reason around this though, will only the future tell if I truly wanted to leave or not? There’s isn’t any way of knowing for sure now if I will leave later. But is there any major difference between the two alternatives that would be possible to spot at this stage?

So... can you morph your outlook on your trials and tribulations and see that you can find success in your life, not every day, sometimes not every week, but overall you can take back control of your life?  Can you look up from your immediate woes and see that there are ways to succeed as a father even if you have to handle some bad to get some good?

ForeverDad, yours is a very useful perspective. I can imagine that I would be fine with doing the best I can with the circumstances, if I would just get that new arena to work from and work on, meaning my own place and away from her. The transition, both practical things and emotionally (her and me, the kids) is the part I dread.

is it a possibility that shes trying (and not necessarily in a deliberate, conscious way, but one in which an insecure person might find a sense of security) to induce jealousy in you, in order to feel more secure about the relationship?

eg "youd better do something, you could lose me"?

That’s probably one of the reasons why she is motivated to talk to me about it, but making me jealous isn’t the driving force.
And that quote is something she has said exactly

What do you say when she says so-and-so is attracted to her?

I mostly ignore it and try different angles on how to seem unbothered or not feed the conversation -> Not responding, rejecting, dismissing, sarcasm, humor, irony, telling her it’s disrespectful to share this with me, telling her I’m not sure she can know all those things, telling her I don’t agree.
But mostly I just tell her I can’t know for sure what anyone else thinks.

[EyesUp]

There's a moment in The Perfect Storm (the book, not sure about the film) where a US Coast Guard helicopter pilot is so busy doing all the things necessary to keep the bird in the air that he literally forgets to do the #1 thing on the list:  Jump out.  The specific term used to describe this confusion is "task saturation." 

And I get it.  In the moment-to-moment blocking and tackling of a BPD relationship, it's like we're double or triple processing everything, and even then not always coming to any conclusions - usually because it's on to the next...   and we gladly accept the calm between the storms, right?

I'm not saying you should jump.  However, I am saying:  In a "normal" relationship, does a partner even consider saying something along the lines of "multiple other men are in love with me"?  Could it be that you're so saturated with your W's various behaviors that you haven't given yourself a chance to respond in a simple, authentic way?  i.e., is it possible to say (in the calmest and most neutral tone possible):

- If I hear that again, I'll have to assume that you don't want to be in this marriage
- Is that something we should discuss with a marriage counselor?
- Yes, you're attractive, that's one of the reasons I married you. Naturally, I expect some other men will notice too
- Do you feel the same way about any of them? 

I'm mainly putting this out there as a thought experiment...  Do any of these statements seem like fair/authentic responses?  If you actually said any of these things, what would happen?

[Notwendy]

I’m not sure how to reason around this though, will only the future tell if I truly wanted to leave or not? There’s isn’t any way of knowing for sure now if I will leave later. But is there any major difference between the two alternatives that would be possible to spot at this stage?

One reason we don't tell posters to stay or leave is because people's circumstances are different. I don't think it's a difference in virtue or emotional strength when it comes to how much someone tolerates- it's personal choices and boundaries.

All behaviors are driven by a cost/payoff balance. A behavior can be high cost but still the payoff-to them-is greater. That doesn't mean the behavior is good for someone. For example addictions have a high personal cost but the addict seeks the "high" regardless.  Basically, if a behavior persists, it's because the person chooses it over the cost. You may be in a high personal cost relationship but you are still choosing to remain in it for your own reasons. 

One principle of 12 steps is that someone doesn't change their behavior (which incudes deciding to leave a disordered relationship) unti the "cost" of that behavior exceeds the payoff. For them to realize this, they usually have to have a lot of discomfort "hitting bottom".

There is no telling what future event may or may not lead you to "hit bottom" to where you decide to make a decision to leave. What is known is that your situation has not yet led you to that decision.

[At Bay]

You asked about major differences between the two alternatives: she saying she wants to leave vs. you saying you cannot live like this.

Would that major difference be whom is to blame for all the changes in everyone's life?

I've was in that dilemma for decades until health problems meant I couldn't be on my own. Always chose to kept the marriage/appearances going.

He's done the same thing except he had a girlfriend for years, and didn't want it spoiling his image after I saw texts between them.

I agree that she may not be serious, but I believe that you have the right to decide what you want.

[15years]

Thanks for the answers, I've been thinking about a lot of what you all have said and it helps.


Now I have a more stressing issue. She wants a third child and I just can't do that emotionally. I get that she can make me say and do things I don't want to because I want it to stop but with this there are too many emotions in me that says no.

Problem is this means it will be chaotic and I don't know where it will lead. She is mostly trying to convince me "kindly" for hours at a time, until she gets angry and/or sad.

Our plans was always three or four kids and I wanted that a lot. But it feels like a dream from a blurry past, very sad. I don't mind children, but I can't do it with her again, and I'm happy with my two boys.


At her more angry moments she tells me that the third time (pregnancy + baby stage) will not be like the two before, when I "was treating her like sh|t"... I think I tried my best and supported her a lot. I'd have to be a storybook gentleman. Can't do that. Make me really anxious. The cost exceeds the payoff.


What do you think?

[EyesUp]

@15years.

First, I'll quote our second marriage counselor (who was promptly fired by my uBPDxw):  "having a child is never a completely rational choice" - his point was:  Ideally, a couple really needs to be in love and in an emotionally good place.   Because if you don't have that, why would you bring another life into the world?

Do you understand why she wants another?

I eventually came to understand that my uBPDxw was determined to go for a 3rd (after we'd supposedly agreed that two was great) because she was one of three - it was what she knew, and then later, her little sister had a 3rd and she felt some impulse to compete...  this was never expressed directly.

Instead I got a mix of nice and also not-so-nice arguments - along the lines of what you describe experiencing now.

Here's what I'll say:  No matter what she says, having another kid will not make her happy - at least not in a durable/lasting way.  It will, however, add another layer of pressure and stress to both of you.  Even if she's a good mother for the kids, I think we know that she'll attribute whatever anger or frustration that comes with that stress to you. 

My X promised to change, but that promise was not kept.  She had the worst post partum episode after the 3rd, and attributed it 100% to me.  She responded to the fully expected financial stress of 3rd child by quitting her job, and then accusing me of financial infidelity.

I could go on, but the point isn't for me to vent - it's to share a cautionary tale.

There isn't a day that I'm not grateful for my kids. But it turned out that the kids were not enough for my X, and her many unresolved disappointments/traumas continue to influence her in challenging ways - as a result, we are divorced, parallel parenting is no picnic, and I deeply miss my kids when they are not with me. And I'm one of the relatively few lucky guys with 50-50 parenting time...

Everyone is different, but my advice is to carefully consider what's next. Having another kid will not fix the relationship. 

Good luck!

[Notwendy]

There is a general pattern to such requests. The (false) belief that something external will make them happy. But it won't- because the feelings are internal to them- they believe the source is external.

I agree, children are wonderful but they won't fix a relationship or be the solution to someone's unhappy feelings.

On your part, this is the question- can you say "no" to her and be able to withstand her reaction? This isn't about any specific request- but to any request you don't feel you can say "yes" to, but you say "yes" anyway to keep the peace because dealing with her reaction is worse for you than saying "yes".

Can you maintain your boundaries and your sense of reality with her - or do you eventually second guess yourself and buy into her thinking?

Yes, saying "no" will be conflict. It may even lead to disolution of the relationship. Can you manage your fears of this?

I think this is more about you and what you can manage in the relationship.

[ForeverDad]

Do you understand why she wants another?

Here's what I'll say:  No matter what she says, having another kid will not make her happy - at least not in a durable/lasting way.  It will, however, add another layer of pressure and stress to both of you...

My X promised to change, but that promise was not kept.  She had the worst post partum episode after the 3rd, and attributed it 100% to me.  She responded to the fully expected financial stress of 3rd child by quitting her job, and then accusing me of financial infidelity.

I could go on, but the point isn't for me to vent - it's to share a cautionary tale.

Everyone is different, but my advice is to carefully consider what's next. Having another kid will not fix the relationship.

I'm sure there are multiple reasons for your spouse to pressure you to have children with her.  I will focus on one... the impact on you.

Your children are already in school or about to start.  I think probably 1/2 grade and preschool.  You do not feel they have to be fully dependent on her.

But... if you have another child you will feel "obligated" to stay with her even longer "for the sake of the fetus, for the sake of the baby, for the sake of the toddler, etc."

If you still cannot bring yourself to leave, have you contemplated snipping to stop the pressuring?  (Sorry, I have a mental blank now for the word.  I'm not senile yet but do struggle sometimes for a mental lapse.  In a few months I'm about to add another decade to my age.)

[kells76]

Now I have a more stressing issue. She wants a third child and I just can't do that emotionally. I get that she can make me say and do things I don't want to because I want it to stop but with this there are too many emotions in me that says no.

Problem is this means it will be chaotic and I don't know where it will lead. She is mostly trying to convince me "kindly" for hours at a time, until she gets angry and/or sad.

Hours sounds like a long time, and honestly, to me, it doesn't seem healthy for either of you.

I wonder what it would be like for you to step away from that a bit earlier? Take it down to 45 minutes, 30 minutes...?

Maybe protecting both of you, by decreasing the time you are at an impasse, could actually be better for you and the relationship.

[15years]

I think a pregnancy and a baby would make her motivated to be content for a while but I don't think dysfunction delusions would cease and I wouldn't be happier.

his point was:  Ideally, a couple really needs to be in love and in an emotionally good place. 

This is may be the biggest reason why I'm not comfortable with the idea of having another child.

But... if you have another child you will feel "obligated" to stay with her even longer "for the sake of the fetus, for the sake of the baby, for the sake of the toddler, etc."

But also this of course, maybe even bigger reason. But if this would be my only main reason, I would feel like a fool if we're still together five years from now.

But... if If you still cannot bring yourself to leave, have you contemplated snipping to stop the pressuring?

Sorry, what do you mean by snipping? Maybe your mental blank has passed now

Can you maintain your boundaries and your sense of reality with her - or do you eventually second guess yourself and buy into her thinking?

In this case,  I'm more scared of giving in than the opposite. There has been things she has demanded of me that I simply haven't done. She has on a few occasions demanded that I delete my music listening history data or movie rating history. The cost of doing that (loosing my data) has been too high for me to agree. Because I would never have it back.

Things I usually agree to do under pressure are things that has little consequences after they are done. Like wanting me to go buy a gift or flowers.

With the music and movie data, one of my boundaries is that I would need to sign in and delete it - which I couldn't go through with - the act of clicking delete would feel so intensely wrong because it
s not what I want When it comes to making babies she also needs my active cooperation and I really feel that I couldn't go through with it.

She will hold me responsible if she doesn't have her third child before it's too late for her.

Hours sounds like a long time, and honestly, to me, it doesn't seem healthy for either of you.

I wonder what it would be like for you to step away from that a bit earlier? Take it down to 45 minutes, 30 minutes...?

Maybe protecting both of you, by decreasing the time you are at an impasse, could actually be better for you and the relationship.

I usually try to seamlessly leave the conversation after a while to cook food or something else. But it's a balancing act where I try to do it without making her angry.

Worst is at night, when the only thing left to do that day is sleep. I have nowhere to go at that point.

[EyesUp]

Sorry, what do you mean by snipping?

99.9% sure he was referring to a vasectomy...

She will hold me responsible if she doesn't have her third child before it's too late for her.

Yup, I heard that one too.

Sometimes having a kid can happen when you're not trying, or can't happen when you are trying...  objectively, healthy couples generally approach this as a joint decision, right?

You've said that you envisioned a larger family, but recent/current circumstances give you pause - it's fully understandable, and fair for you to feel this way.  And, it's also understandable that perhaps your W has an expectation based on earlier discussions and intentions that is now changing - and it's a profound change, especially for moms.

So - how to get passed this?

If you can hold firm on your playlist history (why does she even care about this?), then you should be able to enforce boundaries that involve significantly more consequential decisions.

Have you read this:
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

In my relationship with my uBPDxw, there were many times when it felt like the proverbial "unstoppable force meets unmovable object" - one of the MCs commented, privately, that at the most basic level, what they often look for is one partner who's willing to move - something to consider with or without the MC:  Are you willing to move on this?  Under any conditions? 

To underscore the cautionary tale:  I'm now divorced with three kids - with the same dynamic as before:  My X's behaviors range from victim-mindset to petulant to full-tilt machiavelli.  The 3rd kid had zero influence on her "mood".

[At Bay]

Not much to add, but wanted to say in response to your earlier question I answered at the top about the difference in who wants out, and I suggested someone would be blamed; I didn't mention anything about the unfairness of that. That's what some people do without knowing it's been hard.

When my dbpdh starts an unpleasant subject that will go downhill, I calmly say that I don't feel like talking. Some things are so predictable.

[ForeverDad]

Sorry, what do you mean by snipping?

99.9% sure he was referring to a vasectomy...

Yes.  Thanks, EyesUp.  A day later and I still hadn't recalled the word, though I guess I could have done an internet search and found a trigger phrase sooner.

If you're worried that you may remarry in the future and a corrective surgery might not work, then you could always find a facility where you could freeze some sperm samples.  Not to donate but in case you did find someone sane enough to marry.  Of course you could never blab (or confess) this to your current spouse or you would likely sabotage yourself.

As I recall, doctors advise you might still be fertile for several months after a vasectomy.

[Notwendy]

I think the issue with saying "no" is - can you withstand the reaction? As I recall, your wife can be physically abusive. It's good that you have been able to say "no" in the past, but this one is a difficult one because, "things happen".

To take a long range view- the issue is not about wanting another child or not. It's about having another child with your wife because she is emotionally unstable and abusive.

The hypothetical child is not the problem- the marriage is.

A vasectomy can prevent a pregnancy but that does't solve the main issue which is your marriage and your wife.

It's also a surgical and possibly permanent procedure.

If someone wants a vasectomy, it's their choice and it should be their consent - it's your body. But making permanent decisions under short term duress may not be making one in sound mind.

[15years]

To underscore the cautionary tale:  I'm now divorced with three kids - with the same dynamic as before:  My X's behaviors range from victim-mindset to petulant to full-tilt machiavelli.  The 3rd kid had zero influence on her "mood".

I haven't thought too much about this before but I've realized that the different behaviors (or "mindsets" sounds better actually) in her really confuses me.

When she's "nice" it doesn't make me fall in love with her or feel safe around her, or want me to stay with her, but it makes me feel like I have no legit reason to break up the family. I would like to break up this pattern in myself. Maybe realizing something like "constant lack of feeling relaxed" is enough.



EyesUp, "My X's behaviors range from victim-mindset to petulant to full-tilt machiavelli" - Do you have any examples of how that could be, regarding this specific "request".

My wife also has a "fake positive" mindset and sees me as the problematic one who can't be satisfied. She says things like "You want this child as much as me, maybe more".

[EyesUp]

@15years,

We had agreed that two kids = right size family for us.

Then she changed her mind and insisted that it had to be three. 

This was not the first time that she disclosed that she pivoted away from a prior agreement  about something important - and this was concurrent with various pressures, stresses, and challenges at home and at work, for both of us.

I was sort of incredulous. I traveled about 20% for work, and while we had full-time day care and part-time help for the kids after work, I still recognized that my W absorbed full responsibility for the kids when I was away, which usually amounted to 4-5 days per month, sometimes more, sometimes less. She seemed to really resent this travel - "you're always off having nice dinners and staying in hotels while I'm here with the kids!" (when I got up at 3am to catch a flight) was a common refrain. I took a lot of redeyes to get home asap when colleagues would extend trips to golf or ski... it didn't matter that I burned the candle at both ends. And this was not something new, my work always required some travel... In any case, if she hated my travel and/or being alone with the kids so much, why would she want to add a third?

Some arguments included "if you cared about me..." and "if you really loved me..." type statements, which consistently framed the decision to have a kid in terms of her happiness... I knew that wasn't the right way to think about it. Shouldn't it be a joint decision?

Some other arguments included "by the time the baby is a toddler, our oldest will be able to help" and "no matter what happens to us, the kids will always have each other" - and that didn't feel right either.

In the meantime, we were not in the best shape financially - I had a very healthy salary, but we were still renting and childcare was eating into what should have been down payment savings.  My W also always had spending issues - not super crazy stuff, but constant small indulgences - eating out for lunch every day for comfort and convenience would often amount to an extra $1000/month. A new shoes/clothes habit that might run another $500-$1k/month. Just two examples - There were more.  We could never quite get ahead, and it was impossible to have any kind of productive discussion about this. Any agreements re: budget didn't stick, and I ended up paying for almost everything while she spent her income on whatever she wanted.

Add the emotional and interpersonal dynamic... instant anger, defensiveness, taking things personally, perceived criticism...  I felt like if we were unable to resolve minor misunderstandings, that adding major new responsibilities would be a mistake for us and unfair to our two kids as well as to another child who would depend on parents to model good behavior, conflict resolution, safety and stability, etc.  That wasn't us. 

In our relationship, sex had become a reconciliation maneuver, as in if we're having sex then everything is ok - so adding the pregnancy agenda to a near-constant conflict cycle was not helping. It got to the point where I thought she was intentionally picking fights in order to resolve them with sex - to get pregnant. She had made it known earlier in our relationship that she wanted me to initiate, which was fine... but at this point she was making overtures again. If I demonstrated even the slightest hesitation, she perceived rejection and would have a tantrum - further not helping...

Ultimately, she got her wish and we're super fortunate that our 3rd kid is amazing - but getting what she wanted did nothing to change the dynamic of our relationship or her happiness in a durable way, and everything continued with the same old patterns.

As I said before, having another kid does not fix the relationship - and there are many others here who feel the same way.

Not sure if any of this will be helpful for you, but don't hesitate to ask more Qs.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks for the answers, I've been thinking about a lot of what you all have said and it helps.


Now I have a more stressing issue. She wants a third child and I just can't do that emotionally. I get that she can make me say and do things I don't want to because I want it to stop but with this there are too many emotions in me that says no.

Problem is this means it will be chaotic and I don't know where it will lead. She is mostly trying to convince me "kindly" for hours at a time, until she gets angry and/or sad.

Our plans was always three or four kids and I wanted that a lot. But it feels like a dream from a blurry past, very sad. I don't mind children, but I can't do it with her again, and I'm happy with my two boys.


At her more angry moments she tells me that the third time (pregnancy + baby stage) will not be like the two before, when I "was treating her like sh|t"... I think I tried my best and supported her a lot. I'd have to be a storybook gentleman. Can't do that. Make me really anxious. The cost exceeds the payoff.


What do you think?

I can add a relevant perspective here. I have 3 kids (boys). When my second got to around 5 she started asking for a 3rd. I said absolutely not, we were already financially up against it, and were just starting to get out and do things together. Frankly the relationship felt the best it had been. Maybe it was her knowing she would have to go back to work, or that the baby days were over, but she started pushing. Even whilst saying stuff to my first two kids like "Oh I want another baby just not with your father". Hurtful and unnecessary. I also have the memories of the first two etched in my brain when she would rage at me and tell me I was doing nothing to help, I was useless etc etc when I was doing so much to keep everything together. How I made her depressed etc etc.

I tried to hold my ground but I got:

"You always said we could have three, you are going back on your word" - When we first met 20 years ago we both said about 3. I never meant it as a hard and fast commitment. But there you go. Life had changed a lot with the first two, we had survived covid etc, and the reality of having children had sunk in, plus emotional abuse, I still at this point didn't suspect BPD

Lots of moping around and silent treatment "I am mourning the loss of my 3rd child"

"You are selfish why do we have to do what you want, what about me"

After I had been beaten up for a while over these things and was getting heavily into guilt the next phase started.

"I doubt I would get pregnant I am getting older, I think menopause has started"
"I have been on the pill for years I will never get pregnant"

I then started getting paranoid and checking her pill. I noticed a few days were missing. I checked again the next day they were gone I felt relieved she had caught up. I later noticed two in the trash. I asked her "oh one of the kids must have popped them out and trashed them". A little suspicious the 3 and 5 year old could work out the exact two days in the sequence to pop out......

Then one night after a few beers, she tried it on all friendly and seductive. As a sex deprived man I thought why not, like she said she is approaching menopause I doubt she will get pregnant just that one time at our age as the chances drop significantly.............. She did. When she told me I could have collapsed on the ground. She was angry and upset I wasn't over joyed.... She tried to change the dialog that I was warming to the idea. I did not ever suggest this. I did once stupidly say roll the dice, as In I wanted to have sex! But I guess that could have suggested that to her.

I love my 3rd child he is wonderful, but the relationship with my wife has completely died. I feel resentment that I am working to let go, the lies and manipulation have really effected me. It was after all this I started putting the pieces together and realized the likely hood of BPD which led me here.

My advice is if you don't feel you want a 3rd child don't. Don't listen to the guilting , shaming or other tricks, as a therapist said to me when it comes to making children both people need to be a yes. If one is a no then don't. And don't feel guilty.

I now have the pressure of what a divorce would look like for a under 1 year old, custody etc is so much more complex. Financially a lot more to do and provide for. Life with a baby, a bad relationship and two school age kids is much harder.

Again I love the 3rd as much as the first two and always will, I don't think you regret bring a beautiful being into this world, but it is very hard with an unstable person. I love spending time with the baby. But It has accelerated breaking the home apart I feel and there will be very tough times ahead.

[ForeverDad]

I just had a moment where I put one and one and one together and got three, a new insight, for me at least.

When my second got to around 5 she started asking for a 3rd.

It has often been noted here that mothers with BPD often can view children as extensions of themselves.  Mine did.  Slight diversion here... Though she had stopped breastfeeding when our child was 14 months, she was willing to share her breasts with our child, not me.  With him she was a tender mother, with me she claimed she felt like a prostitute.  Our final weekend together after I had had to call the police - and neither of us was carted off - you can guess what she offered to a 3yo preschooler and not to me.

Many fathers initially begin their first posts her with "My spouse is a good mother but..."  So how exactly is she a good mother?  She can change diapers?  She can put them in a high chair and feed them?  She can tell a young child what to do?  But what happens when the child ages a few years and, as a normal child will, seeks an increasing amount of independence?  That's where those mothers see their parenting facing turbulence.

So, today's insight, could it be that she wants another baby because her children are older and no longer as dependent as a fetus, baby, toddler or preschooler is?  She desires the feeling of prior early years but not realizing that phase is past?  I'm sure it's okay to miss those early years and wish a repeat but when including dysfunctional thinking and perceptions, well...

[CravingPeace]

I just had a moment where I put one and one and one together and got three, a new insight, for me at least.

It has often been noted here that mothers with BPD often can view children as extensions of themselves.  Mine did.  Slight diversion here... Though she had stopped breastfeeding when our child was 14 months, she was willing to share her breasts with our child, not me.  With him she was a tender mother, with me she claimed she felt like a prostitute.  Our final weekend together after I had had to call the police - and neither of us was carted off - you can guess what she offered to a 3yo preschooler and not to me.

Many fathers initially begin their first posts her with "My spouse is a good mother but..."  So how exactly is she a good mother?  She can change diapers?  She can put them in a high chair and feed them?  She can tell a young child what to do?  But what happens when the child ages a few years and, as a normal child will, seeks an increasing amount of independence?  That's where those mothers see their parenting facing turbulence.

So, today's insight, could it be that she wants another baby because her children are older and no longer as dependent as a fetus, baby, toddler or preschooler is?  She desires the feeling of prior early years but not realizing that phase is past?  I'm sure it's okay to miss those early years and wish a repeat but when including dysfunctional thinking and perceptions, well...

Absolutely and totally agree, this was 100% the case from my perspective.  That and because as a child she decided she wanted 3. She is also terrified of work as falls out with people pretty much every job she ever had pre kids. Case who the caretaker was that used to go into her work to try and resolve things. As I thought that is what a good husband does.  I am seeing her direct more anger at my oldest these days, the middle gets off largely Scott free. Yes oldest can be difficult, but he doesn't deserve happy giggling mum 1 minute, and literally the next being shouted at and sent to his room. And why is he difficult? He has always been very sensitive and a bit of a victim, I hope this is not genetic. My job is to support him, show him the world isn't a bad place, I have been focusing on half glass full recently with him.

Anyway the other day I was putting him to bed when he was sick at 7pm, she was out for dinner. She called. She knew he was ill with a fever as I had been texting to update her, she started complaining about something very entitled (only 50 miles gas in the car after she had been out at the stores all day so she would have to pump gas) and getting angry. I apologized to my eldest after and I said "sorry, sometimes mum gets a bit".... he cut in and said "crazy".... I was going to say emotional. Now you could say it was a word that came up in an 8 year olds head. Or you could say he is starting to perceive something isn't exactly right.

Meanwhile I am doing a ton of work in therapy letting go of childhood trauma, learning why I put up with this for so long, seeing the victim negativity so much in her, learning that my parents were not as perfect as I once thought. They are not bad don't get be wrong, but a overly strong willed mother who could be quite invalidating and a Dad that did whatever he was told and never pulled her up... Can see how I got in a similar dynamic.

Meanwhile uBPD has decided she is feeling happy and doesn't feel like there is much more to do in therapy. While next day raging at me on text......

Sorry OP I know this is all a distraction, but I think it helps with context

[15years]

Thank you all for sharing.


She seems so normal at times and I find it hard to motivate myself to make changes to my life during those moments. If she would be like that always (not dysfunctional) I think I could start liking her again.

Problem now is that she wants sex, but starting a few weeks ago, she won't accept any method of birth control (not even "withdrawal"). So I also have to refuse her sex now if I'm going to stick to my decision to not make her pregnant. Slowly making me feel guilty on two fronts.

I don't see vasectomy as an option.

[CravingPeace]

Problem now is that she wants sex, but starting a few weeks ago, she won't accept any method of birth control (not even "withdrawal"). So I also have to refuse her sex now if I'm going to stick to my decision to not make her pregnant. Slowly making me feel guilty on two fronts.

I got a vasectomy one week after the birth of my 3rd.....
She doesn't want sex, she wants to get pregnant. If she did want sex she would agree to some form of birth control. (Condoms, or even withdrawal as a minimum)

A classic double bind. If you don't have sex with her you don't love her (loads of victim material for her). If you do agree she gets pregnant and gets what she want. So she is getting what she wants either way. Classic BPD, absolutely text book. Do you drink alcohol? I would recommend refraining in that position! That same situation is how I gave in....

[Pook075]

If she would be like that always (not dysfunctional) I think I could start liking her again.

Hopefully you realize that she is the good and the bad...just like all of us.  The dysfunctional stuff comes from a lack of communication and validation, which you both play a part of.  It is possible she can avoid the worst of the mindsets but it will take efforts from both of you to reach that place.

That may not be the answer you were looking for, but it's generally true when BPD is involved.

[ForeverDad]

I sometimes comment that pwBPD are predictably unpredictable.

It seems to me that one thing she's predictable doing is finding more dilemmas for you.

[15years]

It's our wedding anniversary today so she has even higher expectations on me now. I slept 2-3 hours tonight, as she was actively trying to make me have sex for many hours, while I was trying to tell her I needed to sleep. She has twisted ideas and fantasies of fate and love, and broke down ultimately and spoke about how she can't keep living until she has her third child. How disappointed she is with herself if she doesn't manage to make me want to have sex with her. This is real to her, she doesn't wake up the next day feeling bad that she didn't respect me, she wakes up feeling bad that she didn't try hard enough (!)

Where will this end if I stay and don't meet her wishes?

I sometimes comment that pwBPD are predictably unpredictable.

It seems to me that one thing she's predictable doing is finding more dilemmas for you.

And maybe this is the simple answer to my question.