Evidence

[findthewayhome]

So had a long chat with my partner. Amongst other allegations and pretty cruel things they said to me they said I have been financially abusing them ( This is not true and most unfair). I am worried there could be more allegations as we approach Divorce. How do I go about collecting evidence, I am worried about other claims that could be made up to effect child custody that I read about here (such as false domestic violence etc)?

Thanks

[ChooseHappiness]

How are you allegedly financially abusing them? The banks will have evidence of your transactions, so you should have that to fall back on.

The false claims are a tricky one. I know someone whose life was 100% destroyed by false claims, and one of the things that has allowed him some financial awards in the wake of it was his record of text messages. Try to shift all your communications to emails and text, and save every single one of them. Try to record all interactions on your phone if possible. And perhaps try to have witnesses to all your encounters.

If moving out (with your child or children) is an option, you may want to do that sooner rather than later.

Sounds like a truly difficult situation. I wish you well with it.

[Turkish]

What, specifically, are the allegations of financial abuse?

[ForeverDad]

Courts tend to ignore general "he always..." and "she always..." claims as unsubstantiated hearsay.  There needs to be some level of documentation (and why we recommend text, emails, letters and recordings) to support your recounting of incidents.  Also helpful is that you log your incidents with at least some details like date, time, where, witnesses, what happened, etc in log books or journals.

While the professionals around the court such as officers, abuse investigators, etc are more or less trusted by the court, you are more or less an unknown to them.  While you've likely had years and years dealing with the disordered person in your life, far more than the professionals, your input and conclusions will likely mean little since you don't have the training and schooling the others have had.

Be careful not to divulge too much information to your partner.  As in, Loose lips sink ships.  Why?  If you share your strategies then you can open yourself up to the other's sabotage and obstruction.  So think before you speak.  Or before you "confess" in late night interrogations.  We've been there, experienced that.

[findthewayhome]

Thanks all.

I work full time they do not as look after the kids, so they do most of the spend on credit cards for the home etc. There is no limit on the credit cards, but I did recently ask if we could budget as the overspend meant my salary was not enough. It took months for them to revert, with various excuses. I also said I would budget so both of us had to reduce spend by the same X amount. Their point is I bought myself a new thing for a hobby, but them a second hand thing. I did that as they are just starting the hobby and based on previous things, they don't get picked up and we end up with expensive things not being used. Also as a beginner in the hobby you need different stuff to an advanced person. So I expected anything bought now would need upgrading in a year or so. I had also spent quite a bit on various beauty treatments that equaled my spend on my hobby so I thought it was fair.

Apparently the above is financial abuse .

[EyesUp]

Like so many stories, I can relate.

My uBPDxw quit her six-figure job, but didn't quit spending.

Whenever I attempted to broach the subject of a family budget, she would avoid, deflect, redirect... "you know I'm not good at math" or "I don't know how to use excel" - and yet, she was the general manager of a business, has an MBA, etc... 

Here's what I found helpful:

Don't dwell on the accusations.  Get grounded in reality.  Not just "your reality" - I mean REAL reality. Objective reality.

In my case, this meant reviewing three years of tax returns, financial statements, credit card statements, bank statements.  As well as emails in which I'd proposed a family budget and received no response (well, no written response). 

Ultimately, I became comfortable with the accusations because I knew they were false.

How could I be financially abusive if I allowed/enabled her to keep using those credit cards?  While also attempting to engage her in normal/healthy dialog about a family budget?

There were emails about supporting her ideas to start a business (which never went anywhere).  More emails about agreeing to pay for certifications (which happened, and also went nowhere).  Exactly how was I abusive?  I guess attempting constrain her spending in any way was perceived as abusive...   in fact, spending/shopping is one of the self-soothing behaviors that often appears with BPD.

Remember:  Accusations are confessions.

What she's most likely telling you, however unintentionally, is that on some level - she's aware that her spending without your agreement is, in fact, abusive toward you.

[findthewayhome]

Thanks for sharing this Eyesup. It's very helpful.

It's hard she says things that sound logical and fair often which makes me question myself and beat myself up. She justifies we are just different with different love languages hence disagreements. She hasn't had a melt down verbally abusing me for months. She is very calm right now and seems happy, but tells me she is detached from me so that's why she is happy now. It is me that seems to be getting emotional and storming off when she says cruel things. She later denies they were cruel just the facts.
"Facts" which my attorney just disputed!

It's so hard constantly questioning yourself. One minute I feel like yep its her, next I am wondering If I am to blame. A pool of anxiousness and dread contemplating divorce, and the impact on the kids and the unknown! Am I making a mistake etc etc.

[ForeverDad]

Don't dwell on the accusations.  Get grounded in reality.  Not just "your reality" - I mean REAL reality. Objective reality... Ultimately, I became comfortable with the accusations because I knew they were false.

Remember:  Accusations are confessions.

What she's most likely telling you, however unintentionally, is that on some level - she's aware that her spending without your agreement is, in fact, abusive toward you.

In other words, projections... not just Blaming but also Blame Shifting.

This didn't happen overnight, over time she made herself a master manipulator.  You see it frequently with some politicians, celebrities and media, they deflect facts, otherwise very obvious, by projecting onto others, typically with emotional emphasis.

[ChooseHappiness]

spending/shopping is one of the self-soothing behaviors that often appears with BPD.

Intriguing. Is there any more information on this? My x is always shopping, which I had just assumed was her excuse to get out of the house.

[findthewayhome]

Ultimately, I became comfortable with the accusations because I knew they were false.

How could I be financially abusive if I allowed/enabled her to keep using those credit cards?  While also attempting to engage her in normal/healthy dialog about a family budget?

There were emails about supporting her ideas to start a business (which never went anywhere).  More emails about agreeing to pay for certifications (which happened, and also went nowhere).  Exactly how was I abusive?  I guess attempting constrain her spending in any way was perceived as abusive...   in fact, spending/shopping is one of the self-soothing behaviors that often appears with BPD.

Oh my Gosh. I have supported her in 3 different career changes that never go anywhere.

She once spent over $500 in a craft store while feeling low... I complained as we were hard up and the kids don't need $500 of paper, pens, and fabrics. She got very upset realized and took it all back....

These days most spend goes on the kids, the amount of toys is unbelievable. And when they don't show enough appreciation. Guess who melts down and goes off in a tantrum about how unappreciated she is, absolute victim. The amount of Christmas and birthdays ruined over that, and it never changes. Meanwhile I pickup the tab , and feel resentful that another load of cash was wasted....Which I had said many times before it just spoils the kids and they don't appreciate it. They will grow up depressed when they don't get everything they want. In my opinion Kids need a few thoughtful gifts, not everything possible.....

[EyesUp]

Intriguing. Is there any more information on this? My x is always shopping, which I had just assumed was her excuse to get out of the house.

Shopping can be like other impulsive behaviors.

This article from McLean Hospital in MA (known for an intensive inpatient program for BPD) highlights it:

"Many people with borderline personality disorder engage in sensation-seeking behavior that could be harmful, especially when they are angry.

Risky or deliberate self-harm activities may include:

Engaging in dangerous and unhealthy binge drinking
Cutting or other self-injury
Going on shopping and spending sprees
Regularly engaging in unsafe sex
Using drugs"

https://www.mcleanhospital.org/essential/bpd

We don't always see these behaviors - I'd say that most of the posts I've seen here at BPD Family focus on emotional aspects, conflict, ego...  However financial infidelity (and infidelity in general) are also recurring themes here, as are drug use and self harm. 

Use the search bar near the top of the page for "shopping" and "spending" and you'll find a bunch of posts with similar themes.

[EyesUp]

These days most spend goes on the kids, the amount of toys is unbelievable. And when they don't show enough appreciation. Guess who melts down and goes off in a tantrum about how unappreciated she is, absolute victim. The amount of Christmas and birthdays ruined over that, and it never changes. Meanwhile I pickup the tab , and feel resentful that another load of cash was wasted....Which I had said many times before it just spoils the kids and they don't appreciate it. They will grow up depressed when they don't get everything they want. In my opinion Kids need a few thoughtful gifts, not everything possible.....

Yes, very similar here.  In fact, I once confronted my X by stating that compulsive, exorbitant gift giving wasn't really for the kids - it was for her.  She was absolutely unwilling or unable to reflect on this.

Ironically, she also often spoke about the importance of experiences vs. things - absolutely the right idea.  But there was (and is) a large divide between words and actions...

[Notwendy]

Excess spending has been a big concern with my parents. Money has a logical side to it- the math, but how someone spends money also is influenced emotionally. For someone with an inconsistent sense of self, money can be a validating factor.

I think I can explain the issue with the hobby equipment. You were thinking logically- and I lean to the logic side as well. It doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money on equipment for a beginner to practice on. A more advanced person needs more advanced equipment. It also makes sense that if your wife spends money on beauty products, you should have something you like as well. Generally there's a sense of reciprocity between people.

I don't think that is an aspect of BPD. PwBPD see themselves as victims which I think changes the sense of fairness. Also, emotions are in the moment, and not logical, but feel like facts.

In that moment, you bought yourself a new item and her a second hand one. That sent the message "you aren't worth it". In that moment, she felt diminished and insulted. This reinforced her feeling of being a victim.

There are many times when I did something that seemed logical, even nice, and then BPD mother tells me how much whatever I did has hurt her.

Money in our family was skewed. BPD mother seemed to have what she wanted and the rest of us seemed to compromise. We didn't go without our basic needs, but my father was stressed over finances and we knew it.

After he passed away, all the assets went to BPD mother. She has gone through most of their savings, the value of the house. We -me and other family members, have tried to reason with her to at least slow down her spending for her own sake but reason doesn't work with her. Since she is elderly and I have gotten more involved with assisting her, I can see now that how she spends money is actually a part of her mental illness. Like an addiction, she does it even if it is self destructive. She can see the numbers in her bank account but it somehow doesn't register with her. This is emotionally driven.

This isn't to excuse the behavior. One has to have boundaries on spending to prevent financial damage but how the pwBPD feels about restrictions, even for the financial well being of the family, may not be logical. It's distressing to be falsely accused of hurting them, but it's necessary to maintain financial safety.

 

[ForeverDad]

In that moment, you bought yourself a new item and her a second hand one. That sent the message "you aren't worth it". In that moment, she felt diminished and insulted. This reinforced her feeling of being a victim.

This was toward the end of my 15 year marriage... It was our anniversary and I was looking at the selection in the store.  The roses looked blah and I remembered I'd had a previous bunch that was old where the petals quickly fell off.  I should have taken the roses anyway since she always hung them upside down to dry and preserve them.  I should have selected the roses anyway but the carnations were multicolored and looked so pretty.  Oh my, she raged!

I can't remember whether it was that time or another time I brought her roses and she was in a rage, but within minutes she cut the flowers off and jammed it all in the kitchen trash.  It had to be her way or no way.

So my thought for the day is that it can also be predictably unpredictable.  I never knew who I would find when I arrived home.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother needed a new computer and asked the teen kid next door what he thought was a good computer. Of course, he told her the one he wanted- with gaming functions and all the cool features he would have liked. So that became the one she wanted and I went with Dad to the store to shop for one.

BPD mother mostly uses email and internet but doesn't play video games. At the store, I found a good computer that had what my mother needed to use if for, on sale, and suggested it to Dad.  Dad seemed upset at the suggestion and he said "no- go find her the exact computer she wants".

I know now what the reaction would have been if he came home with another computer- not the one she wanted. It would not have been worth the savings to him.

[findthewayhome]

Once I was making pancakes for the kids. She doesn't like Pancakes, and complains they just leave her with a sugar crash. But there was one left so I offered, and surprisingly she said yes. I tried half and left her half. She came in and threw it in the sink and raged at me about how disrespectful I was, and would I do that for a guest coming to the house. I explained I made them for the kids, and I shared the last one with you. She would not get over the fact about how disrespectful and uncaring I was. I explained if I invited someone specifically over for breakfast of course I wouldn't just give them half, but I had made them for the kids on a whim (as you don't usually like them), and I tried a bit and left you a bit. That was all, I wasn't doing it to be disrespectful. I eventually apologized for only leaving her half a pancake, and said I wouldn't do it again and then of course she told me it wasn't about the pancake. It was about how disrespectful I was to her. These were her feelings, there was no way that was going to change and she was getting more and more angry so I had to just leave, while being raged at for leaving.

[ForeverDad]

Reminds me of the old proverb:
"Better to dwell on a corner of the roof than in the same house with a quarrelsome wife." (21:9)
"Better to dwell in the wilderness than with a quarrelsome and irritable wife." (21:19)

When feelings and moods are on the edge, logic and skills such as JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) don't work.  You did the right thing and stepped away to let her triggered state fade.

[ThanksForPlaying]

I've experienced two variations on the 'financial abuse' accusations.

The first was when she quit her job and became totally financially dependent on me.  This led to periodic accusations like "you just want me to be trapped and dependent on you" and "you made me quit my job so I'm stuck in this relationship".  When I pointed out that she's free to work if she'd like, the accusations became "you don't even support me - you just want me to work all the time so I'm not around".  She wasn't satisfied working, and wasn't satisfied NOT working.  A no-win situation, and my fault both ways.

The other was literally just putting unnecessary financial pressure on the whole relationship.  Increasingly exorbitant demands.  Expensive trips, each more expensive than the next - just escalating to the point where I had to say 'no' eventually, which caused a meltdown.  She would even remind me that she had other men lined up WANTING to take her on expensive trips.  Which was true in a sense - there's always some rich guy who wants to take a hot girl on a trip to impress her.  But of course that's a one-time thing, and they quickly realize each successive trip is just going to be more expensive.

Finances are just another way to ratchet up the pressure in a relationship - always pushing the limits.  And yes, reckless spending is a known BPD trait.