She says she wants a loving relationship. -- What does she want?

[divina]

I've been facing numerous challenges as a parent of a child with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). (Diagnosed in Family therapy before she dropped out of it.) After reading about other parents' experiences, it's comforting to know I'm not alone. Physical violence, property damage, and boundary violations are just some of the difficulties we encounter.

My daughter, who will be 19 next week, has expressed a desire for a loving relationship with me. However, this is contradicted by her actions and words, often resulting in a barrage of constant provocations. It seems like she wants to push me to do something to justify her behavior. Blame is always shifted, and taking responsibility is never part of the equation.

She frequently trespasses into my room, takes my belongings, and rarely returns them. Despite telling her father that she doesn't want my things, her actions contradict her words. When I installed a hidden camera and filmed her taking my belongings, she came up with an excuse and accused me of instigating trouble.

One incident occurred when she took my jacket, and I politely asked for it back. Her response was a barrage of verbal abuse, spitting, and ultimately, spray painting my clothes and face. This behavior is not isolated, as she often resorts to violence and abusive words when I don't agree with her false narratives. It's like this episode from Star Trek where the antagonists wants the tortured to admit to seeing 5 lights, when there are only 4 lights.  She will do anything she can to force me to agree to her distortions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk3EsXgXcyQ

Despite my daughter's desire for a loving relationship, her actions make it difficult to trust her intentions. My self-preservation instincts are strong, but navigating this situation feels like walking on eggshells, trying not to trigger her. It's crucial for her to understand that I can't change actions I didn't do in the first place.
As her 19th birthday approaches, she has threatened me by text, telling me to prove that I care about her. While it's true that I've had to emotionally distance myself to protect my well-being, I still care deeply for her and want to work towards a healthier relationship.

In summary, my daughter's BPD has resulted in a pattern of unpredictable emotions, physical violence, and boundary violations. It's difficult to reconcile her stated desire for a close relationship with her behavior. I'm hoping to find a way to understand her motivations better and work towards a healthier dynamic between us.

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Threads that resonated
When your are criticised and accused unfairly

The author describes their stepdaughter who invents stories of abuse, using them to manipulate and deflect blame.

Anything said can be used against you. Even good intentions are misinterpreted.

The author interprets the behavior as a response to perceived trauma, even if there isn't any from an objective perspective.

The parent feels like nothing they say is interpreted correctly. Everything is seen negatively, with positive actions dismissed as insincere.

The daughter's behavior is described as erratic and unpredictable, and hateful.

The parent questions their own actions and feels like a failure despite their past efforts to support their daughter.

The daughter is seen as manipulative, using accusations and emotional tactics to control the situation. These include accusations of abuse and neglect.

Despite the pain, the parent expresses love for their daughter and a desire to help, but feels emotionally unsafe due to the ongoing situation.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357709.0

How do you respond to being called a narcissist?
The daughter uses the term "narcissist" as a way to blame the parent for her problems. The constant blame can make the parent question themselves.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357898.0

My daughter blames me
The author shares their experience of being constantly blamed by their daughter with BPD.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358319.0

How to help and understand my adult daughter.
 The post details a history of challenging behaviors since the daughter was a child.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358146.0

Daughter with diagnosed BPD and extremely abusive
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358033.0

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[BT400]

My heart goes out to you as I’m  dealing with similar things with my 13 year old daughter. Her mom, who I haven’t been with for 10 years, has BPD in a bad way and I’m afraid my daughter has been chosen for this thing too.and it’s abusive and exhausting.. I’m working on acceptance and healthy boundaries myself.

[kells76]

Hi divina,

I get what you're saying about words vs actions. Before I knew about BPD, I would get so confused when my H's kids' mom (many BPD traits/behaviors) would say words that seemed healthy ("relationships are built on trust") but the "boots on the ground" experience of her actions was so toxic.

It sounds like your D18 lives with you. You also mention her father; are you and her father married? living together?

I wonder if at some level the BPD involved is impairing what should be a normal process for your D18, of spreading her wings, leaving the nest, and living individually. Perhaps she's coping with fears of being alone/abandoned as she matures, but instead of being able to work through those in a healthy way, the disorder is showing up -- she's vandalizing your things, doing untrustworthy actions, blaming, and distorting.

It might fall to you to initiate the journey towards her living separately; maybe that could be a good thing for her to have more space, even though the disorder impairs her ability to make it happen on her own?

Could separate living improve the relationship between you two, do you think? It would remove some of the current conflicts.

It also might be worth thinking about putting a lock on your bedroom door, without explanation or justification needed. You can do it -- it's your home and you're allowed to decide what behaviors you are OK with experiencing. She might not like the lock, but whether a pwBPD likes a boundary or not isn't indicative of whether it functions to protect you.

Lots of food for thought, for your challenging situation. Hope some of it lands for you;

kells76

[Pook075]

I've been facing numerous challenges as a parent of a child with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). (Diagnosed in Family therapy before she dropped out of it.)

Hey Divina and welcome to the forums.

Let me ask you a quick question.  What would you do if I drove to your house tonight, took your favorite jacket, then spit on you and spray painted you when I was confronted?

Because whatever that answer is, that's also what you should do with your daughter every single time she lashes out.

I get that your kid says she wants a loving relationship with you- that's really sweet.  I want to learn how to fly like Superman.  But the problem is, I've never done anything to begin my training...so I can't fly.  Words are meaningless without actions behind them.

Your title, "what does she want", if off-base.  Nobody here cares what she wants because we're here to help you.  And regardless of what your kid wants, we're going to tell you not to give it to her until she's treating you like a loving, respectful daughter.

Why?

Because she's abusive, but you continue to try to give, and she continues to get more abusive.  That tells us that she's not learning right from wrong, which is really your biggest job as a parent.  She has to understand that bad behavior gets bad results every time, while good behavior gets good results sometimes.

You have one play here- stop enabling her.  If she assaults you, call the police and have her arrested.  If she steals or screams or blames you, then ask her to leave your home.  Teach her right from wrong and stop allowing her to manipulate you.

I know that sounds ultra harsh, but enabling her bad behavior is making the living conditions a nightmare for everybody.  It's also keeping her from becoming responsible though, which will have drastic consequences for her later in life.  It has to stop for your sake and everyone else in the house.

Now, I will say that her borrowing a jacket and not returning it is not the end of the world.  It is wrong, of course, but you have to learn to pick your battles when dealing with BPD.  If it's that big of a deal to you, then find a suitable punishment (I'd cancel her cell phone until everything is returned...washed and neatly folded).  She will naturally rebel against the punishment, which is where you ramp up the consequences again (she's not welcome there until she apologizes).  You must stop walking on eggshells and accepting abuse.

[divina]

@kells76 

Her father and I are divorced. We lived together for some time after the divorce until I finally moved.  That was when she was about 12 and she got signficantly worse during that time.

He is currently living with me. A long story short, I had removed MYSELF from my own apartment on and off for about 15 months in the past 24 months. She was so destructive and abusive, I needed peace of mind and some place that I felt safe from the constant abuse in all forms. The last six months, I asked him to keep and eye on her and my place which she had previously trashed when I was away.   When I had to return (my friend was returing from traveling and needed her place back), I asked him to be there to supervise because I was too afraid to be alone with her. In fact, I am ALWAYS afraid when she is around.  Any boundary I set is met with physical violence, destruction of property, or verbal abuse that goes on for at least two hours or more.  So I do my best to keep the peace. I know that isn't boundary settings, but her level of esculation is more than any person can take.

Her dad says "she's just desperate for you to love her."  Well dang, she has a funny way of showing it.  It's a lot.  I've tried and tried and tried. Nothing I do is right in her eyes, and the blame shifting and the ever shifting targets. I will never met her expectations unless she starts therapy.

[divina]

@Pook075 I've had her arrested.  I have had her hospitalized.  The state gave her back to me, untreated and said I am the problem.  I've had ACS called three times. Each time, after really talking in depth to both of us, looking at evidence from both of us, having us do family therapy, where she dropped out and I maintained it, they said, "Yeah, she's the problem, but we can't do anything to help you."  More or less. She's under 21, and in my state, I need a judge from family court to allow her to be removed from my home. In order to do that, I have to build a case that has VIDEO evidence of her doing things to me.  One can imagine how difficult it can be to get that. The minute my phone gets out, is the minute it's knocked out of my hand and smashed. 

I'm not dealing with a normal person. She gave away her phone, and I let her sit without one for six months. It was more hassle for me that it seemed for her.  Her whole life, she would revel in sitting in her own consequences, and then later use this to prove her abuse and martyrdom. Her current narrative  is how I had her sent to the mental hospital and manipulated everyone to hold a perfectly sane girl in holding.  As if a trained psychiatrist didn't have to make that call. 

I feel like the only call that can be is complete seperation for good or until she gets treatment and sees the destruction she has brought to our relationship. But getting there, I don't know how I can get there with her.  This is why I keep trying. 

[Pook075]

@Pook075 I've had her arrested.  I have had her hospitalized.  The state gave her back to me, untreated and said I am the problem.  I've had ACS called three times. Each time, after really talking in depth to both of us, looking at evidence from both of us, having us do family therapy, where she dropped out and I maintained it, they said, "Yeah, she's the problem, but we can't do anything to help you."  More or less.

I did all the same things, and all of them failed as well.  Still, you're fighting a state that's not equipped to handle mental health, so you have to keep playing the game.  She comes home, acts abusive, and you pick up the phone saying one simple phrase, "She's a threat to herself or others.  I do not feel safe."  They have to take her all over again.

Is that ridiculous?  Absolutely.  But it's ridiculous to your kid as well and it's a way to teach her that it's easier to be nice to mom than continually get committed.  It eventually made a difference in our situation.

She's under 21, and in my state, I need a judge from family court to allow her to be removed from my home. In order to do that, I have to build a case that has VIDEO evidence of her doing things to me.  One can imagine how difficult it can be to get that. The minute my phone gets out, is the minute it's knocked out of my hand and smashed. 

Okay, so get video set up in your home.  You already did when she took the jacket, so do that again.  Put a camera in a few rooms of the house and confront her behavior.  If she screams at you and threatens, that's assault.  If she hits you (even slapping something out of your hand), that's battery.  Breaking your phone is destruction of property, and if your phone is over $600 it's a felony (in my state...your state could be anywhere from $500-2000 before it's a felony). 

These charges stick and it allows judges to play the game- usually in-patient stays of 30-60 days or more.  You have to realize that everyone is playing the broken mental health game- doctors, nurses, judges, social services, etc.

So play the game until she can't stand it anymore.  Maybe she leaves on her own- mission accomplished.  Maybe she spends the next year in mandated therapy.  You have to play the game though because you can't accept abuse.

I'm not dealing with a normal person. She gave away her phone, and I let her sit without one for six months. It was more hassle for me that it seemed for her. 

My daughter did the same thing- we'd punish her and she'd punish us 10x harder.  That's when we escalated to the police and hospitals after every threat, every meltdown.  Things got so much worse by waiting and hoping, but we got serious when she was almost 18 (and at her worst).  She went to the hospital 6 or 7 times that year, with mandatory stays each time.

I feel like the only call that can be is complete seperation for good or until she gets treatment and sees the destruction she has brought to our relationship. But getting there, I don't know how I can get there with her.  This is why I keep trying. 

In your 1st sentence, you said that they returned her to you untreated.  That's not true- they did what they were supposed to do, but she wasn't interested in listening or trying.  This is on her, and until she's ready to take it seriously nothing will work.  That's why you have to be on the offensive here every time she lashes out; play the game until it's easier for her to take things seriously or leave than abuse you.

For the record, she doesn't see her destruction at all- she sees terrible parents that deserve her abuse.  It's pure entitlement and until you change, she has no reason to see things differently.  Again, you have to play the game....the stupid, broken, ineffective game.  It's all you have if you're not allowed to throw her out.

[BT400]

This is helping me a lot reading through these. Thank you for sharing.

[CC43]

Divina,

I'm sorry you're going through this.  That you feel unable to live in your own home out of fear and/or desperation indicates that the situation is truly dire.

If your daughter is turning nineteen, then you absolutely can throw her out.  At 19, she's an adult and she's responsible for herself.  Surely she knows this, but she won't admit it, because she's entitled and wants to make you responsible for everything.

You're asking, what does she want?  Maybe you'll never really know.  You listed some of the posts that resonated with you, and I know I commented on some of those posts.  I suspect my diagnosed stepdaughter has some of the same issues and/or behaviors as your daughter, though perhaps not as violently as yours.  I've tried to understand my stepdaughter's thinking patterns, to understand their origin and triggers, and maybe explain the seemingly bizarre behaviors of a grown woman.  So here goes my interpretation:

I believe that dysregulated, hyper-sensitive emotions are what underlie my stepdaughter's behaviors.  She has an overly negative view of life, and she is hurting.  When she feels excluded, disappointed, wronged or inferior--which she feels often--her feelings are intense, and she can't handle them.  Her internal self-talk isn't compassionate, but cruel.  She gets "stuck" in a negative internal thinking loop, re-interpreting and re-writing history to prove to herself how badly others treat her.  As her emotions boil up, logical thought is thrown out the window.  She can't self-soothe, or take a deep breath, or count to ten, or step away.  She acts out impulsively on her emotions, saying (or texting) very hurtful things.  She has tantrums.  She can't handle any pressure or potentially negative feedback, so she quits (classes, jobs, relationships).  In your daughter's case, she's also acting out with violence and destruction.  Does she understand how hurtful she's being?  Maybe, but she feels "justified" in being mean because of the real pain that she believes has been inflicted on her.  If you try to reason with her, or defend your actions, or point out why she shouldn't feel so aggrieved, you only add fuel to the fire.  She'll feel "invalidated," because you don't AGREE with the story that she was WRONGED and HURTING, and that you or others are responsible.

Another important feature for my stepdaughter is victimhood.  She feels that others have wronged her.  Over time, she feels that this entails ABUSE.  She claims she was abused by parents, siblings, extended family, roommates and friends.  In short, she is always the victim.  Why?  Because being a victim means she's never responsible for her actions.  She can lash out with impunity.  She blames others for all her problems.  And being a victim means that other people have to change, not her.  She has no agency.  For as long as she has this attitude, she won't comply with therapy.  And she remains incredibly ENTITLED.  She expects to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants, with no adverse consequences, because consequences are for her ABUSERS, not her.  This is the story she tells herself, because if she were to admit she was ever at fault, the pain would be unbearable, and she'd lose her victim status.  At the same time, she expects everyone else to bend over backwards to give her what she wants, when she wants it, no matter the other person's needs and wants.  She is, after all, the poor little abused girl.  She's pulling all the heartstrings and feelings of guilt in her parents to get what she wants.  That doesn't work so well with siblings, friends or colleagues, which is probably why she is alienated from all of them.

Finally, I think she's terrified of growing up.  She doesn't really know who she is and who she wants to become, because her emotions are a jumbled mess, and she hates herself.  She can't find the internal strength or focus to complete her studies or hold down a job, because it's too HARD.  She feels like a failure, especially because she's quit countless times.  Peers have moved on, and she feels stuck.  She feels inferior, and powerless, and childlike, feeding her negative self-talk.  Childhood was relatively easy and carefree (even if her revisionist history claims her childhood was abusive).  She spends all her time looking backwards, not forwards.

What does she want?  I'd say she wants many things:

*She wants you to PAY.  She wants to extract retribution for purported past abuses.
*She wants to TAKE.  She's a bottomless pit of entitlement.  She wants money, resources, clothes, favors and freedom, in exchange for nothing in return.
*She wants attention.  She can't stand it if others are the center of attention when she isn't.  She can't be happy for others. Don't you dare take a vacation or do something nice or fun for yourself because that's not fair to her.
*When she's hurting, she wants you to hurt even more, so you understand how bad it is.  Misery doesn't love company, misery loves miserable company.  She wants to ruin your life in retribution.
*She wants to hate you, even if you are being loving.  Why?  Basically because she hates herself, but admitting her flaws and misdeeds is too painful, so instead of turning her hate and anger inward, she's projecting it outward towards you.  And she's simultaneously blaming you for abusing her.
*She wants to be free of you, but she's not independent, and she resents that.  She's stuck with you because you're providing everything for her.  She's too scared to move out or grow up, because it's too hard relative to what she has now.
*She wants a child's dream of being a princess.  She wants to be the most beautiful girl in the world, with everyone fawning over her, dressed in fashionable clothes, her subjects serving her, falling in love with her her prince, and going on exotic vacations, while getting millions of likes on social media.  She is oblivious to the actual work of a modern princess.  She wants all the benefits and none of the obligations.

In summary, I think that the negative emotions take over my stepdaughter's brain and impair her logical thinking and planning.  For as long as she thinks she's a victim, she's unwilling to change and blames everyone else.  And for as long as she gets what she wants by being a terrorist in your household, she will continue.  If anything, she will up the ante, because she's winning.

[divina]

Thank you both for your very insightful posts. You have given me much to think about from very different perspectives.  I apologize if I don't answer quickly. I don't get notified when there are responses to the thread.

I had a win in celebrating her birthday.  I hope it isn't temporary. 

[Ourworld]

Hi divine,

I suggest this, if it is a possibility:
Lease a decent basic apartment (nothing fancy if she gets better and begins working, she can upgrade herself) for her and pack her things and move her with at least her bedroom furniture (you could get some other inexpensive furniture for her from a rental company).
Don’t ask if a place is acceptable to her (because it probably would not be), make it clear that until she is able to support herself that you will cover rent, utilities, her furniture, and YOU will go purchase her some groceries to bring to her (she can give you list, but you decide what to buy).
I suggest picking up dirty clothes to wash when you take her groceries ONCE A WEEK at most.

That is ALL you should do, you have to take things one step at a time and the first one is to get this young adult in her own place.

I believe that you could legally do something like that, of course the apt. would be in your name until she turns 21 (due to your current state restrictions; in Texas children actually have adult rights at 17, but the public only knows 18, hopefully by then she’ll begin working and can upgrade herself.

You really NEED to try and stop letting her walk all over you, just help and support her until tapering off as she gets better.

At least my daughter was high-functioning; which I feel may have had a lot to do with the fact that when she was growing up, I NEVER gave in to her emotions. With her ‘shy’ behavior I never even thought of mental illness (this was not something I was ever exposed to), so I just showered her with love and we were very close. Once she turned 15 and my husband had died when she was 11, I began to see some rebellion. In the car (not at home) she would argue and raise her voice to me over every little thing, but she only did this when one of her friends was with us!

I paid for her college, and she did quite well, so I let her live in her own apt. that I paid for. After she graduated she began living with her fiancé who had a large inheritance but still worked. She blocked me from her phone after beginning work which I just figured was for her to become her own independent person since we were so close and she was an only child.
I thought she was ok and I still did not realize her mental state, so  I moved overseas for my work.

Well, now I have found out the decline of her mentality since then, and that she felt abandoned. So after I returned from overseas she cut off all communication with me for many years, and to be honest, I really don’t know when or if she will re-connect with me. I am grieving again since I found out about her mental state, but I am so thankful that she is self-sustaining. I had a plan to do long-term overseas missions, and will probably leave early next year. Just as she would expect when she was in her right mind. But if I had not helped her to be rely on herself, I couldn’t go and would be stuck taking care of her.

I don’t know what you believe, but I believe that God created the earth and man, and that we are blessed with children to raise, but in reality they are His children, and there comes a time when we must pray and trust that He will take care of them. He does expect us to have a life of our own.

Letting go is difficult, but you are important too!

So, you can handle this, and since you will still be caring for her, she shouldn’t feel abandoned, and hopefully you can take back part of your own life and retain a healthy mentality yourself.

I wish you the best, OurWorld

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[divina]

With roommates it would cost at least $1500 a month, just for a room.  And then all the other expenses...  Renting a second place to live in NYC (where we live) is not a possibility.

She hasn't finished HS yet either. She wasn't loving and close to me at 15.  We haven't been close since she was 10.  Even before then she was diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder.  It isn't as if one didn't try to set boundaries with her.  Except what that meant is her responding as another poster mentioned, punishing us 10x worse.

This is the last push. I WILL be moving overseas and if she's still in this state... well I hate to be callous about it, but that's her problem.  I can bring the horse to water, but I can't make it drink.  If she wants to go around with untreated BPD and abuse me, doing things that if she really took responsibility for them, she knows is wrong, then I have a right to live my own life free of abuse, even if it is my own child.

But I am not there yet. I am desperately trying to hold on until she decides to get treatment. Hoping we can get there. It doesn't help that her father, who has his own anger issues sides with her on almost everything. He draws the line when she hits me, but usually comes at me "Well you must have done something."  Yeah, I did something. I shifted my weight because my feet were hurting.

[Ourworld]

Divina,

Dang! I’m so sorry you are having such difficulty, and I really applaud you for trying to stick it out so she will get treatment!
I did not realize she was still in high school and you lived such an expensive city-it was just an idea, which I figured you had already considered.

If I think of anything else I’ll let you know.

Btw-I suppose the birthday sweetness didn’t last, but I’m still glad you had that.

You’re in my prayers. OurWorld

[Ourworld]

It really sounds like you’re between a rock and a hard place! The reason I thought of her having her own place, was that hopefully she wouldn’t keep hurting you and taking your things. Plus maybe she would face up to how messed up she was and get treatment.

Hugs!

[Pook075]

I am desperately trying to hold on until she decides to get treatment.

Hi Divina.  I completely get that feeling of wanting to hold on waiting for treatment, I did that for so many years.  But the only way that happens is your daughter hitting her "rock bottom" and realizing the need to change.

Nobody can convince her to change.  Doctors and therapists can't help.  This is 100% on your kid.

If you want to head overseas, then pack your bags and take the leap.  Your daughter can't factor into that equation because she's on her own timelines.  You control you...including your timelines.  Don't let her dysfunction dictate yours. 

With my BPD kid (now 25), her rock bottom was really, really low.  She was abused several times due to poor choices, and abused herself with alcohol/drugs.  She wanted to die.  Yet we stayed away except for brief visits, because everything had to be her way in order for her to see that it's not a viable path.  And don't get me wrong, it broke her.  But she needed to break since that's the only thing that gets rid of the entitlement. 

In other words, she had to see without a shadow of a doubt that the problem was within her.

There is hope for your daughter.  But at the same time, you have to stop being part of the problem.  Her entitlement is on her, sure, but it's also the people in her life that give her that power.  That's why you have to cut the cord, so to speak, and stop accepting the abuse entirely.  She can't come back at you 10x if you move away and change your phone #.  Let her email all the rants she wants...that's fine.  But the direct daily abuse must stop.

[Notwendy]

It's a bit different as in my situation with a BPD mother, but I feel she wants the same thing. I do too and so I did all I could to attain this but to her this also included tolerating and enabling her emotionally and verbally abusive behavior.

Still, she "wants a loving relationship" because it's what she wants regardless. As Pook said- we can want something, we can want anything we want but that doesn't mean we can have it. So we can want to fly like superman but that doesn't mean we can. Or we can want to be or do something that takes work to achieve and if we don't do the work, we won't achieve it.

My mother wants what she wants. She also wants her grandchildren to be attentive to her but they've seen her behavior and are wary.

She somehow doesn't see the connection between her behavior and the consequences of that. She perceives herself as a victim (Karpan triangle).

It's sad - and I feel sad for her. She has extended family who do have a close loving family. She wants what they have. Ironically, so do we. As kids, we wished our family could be more like theirs. They had their own quirks and issues but basically are an intact and functional family. We, as kids, looked at them wistfully- and just wished. But the reality is- was different. It wasn't something we could achieve with our family- but we tried.

Eventually, I also had to learn to stop enabling my mother. She does not like the boundaries.

I hope you can come to some acceptance of the situation as it is. It's hard to hear they "want a loving relationship" as we want it too but to love someone is not the same as enabling- even if they want it to be that way as well.

I compare it to a toddler asking for cookies for dinner. The loving parent would not give them cookies because it's not in their best interest to let them eat cookies for dinner. The toddler will likely tantrum. They won't feel it's loving to not give them a cookie but we know it is.