Parenting with a BPD ex- concerns for child

[Justdrive]

Good day, everyone. It's been a few years since I posted, but I've checked in at times over the years when issues have come up that I needed to research. I'm now asking for some perspective.

Recap: Divorced my ex-wife with quiet BPD traits in 2020. We have a daughter who is now almost 11. 50/50 custody, following a schedule that splits the week down the middle.

Current problem: Over time, I have realized that my ex uses our daughter as a prop to gain positive attention and perhaps to secure attachment to the ex's SO du jour. For example, whatever hobby or interest the SO has, D11 is expected to participate/show interest. When SO was into animals.... D11 wanted to be a big cat rescue habitat employee. When SO was LGBTQIA2+.... D11 was nonbinary.  Current SO is into pagan practices... D11 comes home wearing crystals.

Currently D11 is back to not knowing what she wants to do when she grows up. When she is with me, she identifies as female but nonbinary when she's with her mom.

I worry that D11's own developing sense of self is at risk.....and I don't know how to protect her. Nothing has happened that I can bring to court to push for majority or sole custody.

I have worked towards establishing a therapeutic relationship between D11 and a local counselor. Right now she checks in every couple of months; therapist tells me that she is as well adjusted as any of her other clients. Therapist understands the concerns about BPD (she's my therapist too...) and the rest of D11's medical team is on board. So I at least have that in my corner. D11 and I have a strong relationship as well.

My library includes Understanding the Borderline Mother; Surviving a Borderline Parent; Walking on Eggshells; Search for the Real Self; Borderline, Narcissistic and Schizoid Adaptations*; Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent; and a few others, but I haven't found any answers that deal with this particular scenario.

1) Do I keep on with the status quo, hoping that the coming teenage years will help solidify D11's sense of self?
2) If not, aside from therapy visits and giving D11 space to be her own person when she is with me....what else can I do? What have you done that worked for you and your children?

Thank you for your time.
-Justdrive

*By the way, this was the best book I found when I was trying to research BPD post divorce. I got a lot out of it as a layperson. 5 of 5 stars, would recommend.

[kells76]

Hi Justdrive and welcome back 

My H's kids' mom has many BPD-type traits, and is married to a guy with many NPD-type traits. Mom seems to struggle with identity via getting caught up in sociopolitical "causes du jour". It is not surprising to me that a person with a weak or lacking sense of self and continuity would try to find external sources of selfhood and would sort of hop through them without a sense of "gee, but wasn't I ________ last week"? So we have walked the path you are on. Yes, identity struggles/exploration began for both of H's kids around age 11-ish. It has been difficult and has stretched H and I quite a bit, for similar reasons: from our perspectives, it appeared that the kids were parroting Mom, but they weren't going to hear that from us.

Minor children, whether they can articulate it or not, seem to experience a "life and death" feeling of dependence on parents -- this is normal. Kids may not be able to describe why they do what they do, but they are so resourceful at getting needs met in unusual ways, including the most basic needs to feel accepted and cared for and "in the tribe". So again, it's not surprising to me that your D11 is "team Mom" in terms of interests -- D11 is being resourceful about getting attention and support.

I think you're right that 11 is young and that the coming years, especially how you interact with D11 (likely more so than exactly what you say), can make a big difference in how D11 sorts out who she is, and that there may not be anything legally actionable about the situation right now, despite the effect it is having on D11.

My H's kids are now 16 and 18 but for many years (like >10) I truly thought that SD18 would always be "team Mom and Stepdad". She began hitting her limit over the last couple of years, culminating in sharing some stuff with H and I a few weeks ago that were reportable and resulted in a CPS call and investigation. She never wants to have a relationship with Stepdad again but is struggling with deeply wanting her mom to love her. SD18 is at the point that she can call Mom's household abusive, and recognize that she wants long term therapy for herself, but she isn't quite at the inflection point of putting together the pieces of "oh, I felt really alienated from my body for all those years, and it isn't necessarily because I'm [insert identity here], but maybe because of my FOO issues". SD18 is still committed to wanting to transition and take hormones, and has a SO who is also a female who wishes to transition and take hormones. Being able to speak into that situation will require more deposits into the trust bank before making the withdrawal of asking her to hear some thoughts from H and I, but we have worked hard to be nonreactive, to listen genuinely, to not take things personally, to stay calm, and to focus on problemsolving, for many years, and it has built a foundation of trust.

She's an adult so the choices are in her lap, and I don't control her choices. My hope would be that she would be willing to consider the role and contribution of FOO dynamics into her self-experience, and explore that in therapy, before making permanent choices to change her body. I wouldn't be telling her why she feels what she feels, or that I have any say over her decisions, just hoping she would be willing to hear that perspective and treat it with respect.

SD16, too, wishes to make permanent changes to her body. I am working on empathy and compassion (after all, if I had to live with Stepdad, I'd want to permanently change parts of my body, too  ) and keeping in mind that she is 16 and may change her mind many times. I work on not reacting in big ways when she says "I plan to get _______ surgery" -- trying not to feed that with attention -- but not shooting it down, arguing with her, explaining why she's wrong, etc. I try to find parallel examples of working through/with body issues that are not so third-rail (I had an eating disorder as a teen, so I try to be open about that). Ultimately, though, where H and I have had to land is that we do not have control over what the kids choose to do with their bodies, and all we can do is keep loving them as they struggle to work with their pain.

All that to say, my thoughts in regards to your questions are:

1) Do I keep on with the status quo, hoping that the coming teenage years will help solidify D11's sense of self?

If D11's mom is like H's kids' mom, she might escalate in psychologically manipulative ways if/when status quo is threatened or if/when more 3rd parties get eyes on the situation. You do seem to have a pretty good structure in place right now, with 50/50, good relationship with D11, and therapists involved.

When I made the CPS call the other week, it did feel like "this was my one shot" -- I'd held back for a while but it finally became abundantly clear that the escalation was needed and I was kind of backed into a corner. So my thought is that sometimes, if you aren't sure about changing status quo, that can be a sign that it isn't needed yet, and when it is needed, it can be pretty clear, not ambiguous. Maybe it'd be a good exercise to get down on paper what your "lines in the sand" are, or what situations might come up that you feel you can handle via conversation between you and D11, and what situations are beyond that.

If you have/had a lawyer, consider checking in with your L about what counts as "change of circumstances" in your area.

2) If not, aside from therapy visits and giving D11 space to be her own person when she is with me....what else can I do? What have you done that worked for you and your children?

Lots of spending time focusing on shared interests, not identities. Praising the kids for diligence, helpfulness, kindness, etc, versus praise for any kind of sociopolitical involvement. Modeling doing sacrificial things to help the community (giving time/money/items), versus superficial "help" ("I wore a bracelet", "I put a sign in the window") that costs us nothing. Non-shaming responses when the kids bring up something they don't know much about (not "how could you not know Detail about Issue X", but "that's cool you're thinking about Issue X... lots of people don't know that actually, ______").

Lots and lots of parallel discussion versus hitting the issue head-on. SD16 especially is sensitive to confrontation and just shuts down -- we have to try to approach hot button issues kind of from the side. We have really pulled back from any kind of long lecturing -- she just is gone. It has to be small doses with her.

I truly hate social media but have worked hard to not get reactive about that with the kids. SD16 especially spends a lot of time on apps (Mom bought the phone, we did not have any say) so I try to cultivate an attitude of curiosity: "So how does it work to put a video on tik tok -- what do you do first", or "Wow, you almost have X number of followers, are you going to do anything to celebrate", or "any new favorite instagram reels, I'd love to see them", or "so how do you play that game on the discord server, I have no idea how".

Keeping the kids talking about their lives and interests, whatever I think about it, has been key. I try to find ways to support both of them with their interests that I can do while keeping my integrity. SD16 has an interest that I really don't like, but part of it involves sewing, so I do feel like I can meet her there and focus on how skilled she is at sewing.

I think our ratio of non-reactive listening to laying down the law has probably been something like 50:1. Lots of deposits in the "trust and listening" bank, few withdrawals.

Keep yourself grounded in remembering what it was like to be a teen/preteen. Maybe it's different for boys, but for girls, there's a big drive to be accepted and in a peer group, so she may be picking up various interests not only due to Mom, but also due to peers. Find ways to have some neutral discussions about those things with her, maybe raising a question at the end, but not intense: "Wow, tell me more about the crystals... what do you like about them? What do people say they do? OK, so you put that one in the corner, and that one by your bed -- is that how it works? What do you hope will happen?... How do people know if it worked or not?"

Really be clear to yourself about your hill(s) to die on. For us, SD16 also went through a crystals phase, and I have friends with 12 year olds also going through that phase. We definitely let that one go, though each family is different. We did "die on a hill" with clothing twice; once, SD18 (at 15) wanted to wear just her bra down to the local skate park. That got a No, and she was so mad (obviously we were prudes who were embarrassed of bodies and trying to control her). The other time was an international trip, where we said No, you cannot bring clothing with obscene, profane, anti-religious, or military markings. That went better. When it's a real safety issue we will "die on that hill"; when it isn't, we've had to let a lot go. SD16 is currently in a "punk" phase and wears many patches with offensive phrases. We are working hard not to make conflict over that a reason she won't spend time with us. I may try the "parallel" approach of "wow, if I heard someone say All ____ are ____, that just seems like making assumptions, and I know you hate it when people make assumptions about you", but it's hard to gauge.

Truly emotionally validating your D11 will be gold, as will the counterpart of stopping being invalidating, even inadvertently. Not sure if you've seen this book yet -- The Power of Validation (for parents) by Karyn D. Hall, PhD has been helpful for real-life scenarios.

...

Well, that was a lot! I should wrap this up. Feel free to click through my old posts; we've "been there done that" on the teen identity journey, too.

It sounds like D11 is cooperative about the parenting schedule (i.e., not saying things like "can't I just go back to Mom's", or threatening to walk away, etc)?

[ChooseHappiness]

Sounds like a tough situation, but it seems like you are doing everything you can to look out for your child. So credit to you.

I don't have advice, but I can tell you that my older child (14) already wants to spend majority time with me and minimal time with my xwBPD. Once children get into the teen years and start to develop agency and a stronger sense of self, they become more aware of the distortions, emotional instability and general insanity of living with a parent with BPD. My older child also spends a lot of time at friends' homes, so he sees what functioning parents are like and is able to make that comparison.

So as your child gets older and develops more independence and their own social network, they may realize how dysfunctional the other parent is and began to emotionally or even physically distance themselves. (I'm not sure what it's like where you live, but in my area the courts will generally respect the wishes of a child over 12 when it comes to parenting time and where they want to be.)

Thanks for sharing the reading list. I've read Raising Resilient Children and Stop Walking on Eggshells and found them quite useful. Do you think any of them would be appropriate for a 14-year-old? I've been wanting to find something my child could read but haven't had any luck so far.

[ForeverDad]

It is so good that you have equal time with your daughter.  Do not feel that you are powerless or must choose to passively parent.  As a reasonably normal parent you probably have reasonably normal moral codes or belief systems that are no less important than whatever your ex professes.  Be an empowered father rather than intimidated.  Most today are too young to have ever watched "Father Knows Best" on TV but likely you've seen clips... be a wise and unshakable father.  You can stand up - in a validating and empowering way, positive rather than negative patterns and examples - so that life's decisions and paths are not left up to a pre-teen to stumble through or be overly influenced by her constantly changing and unpredictable mother.

[Justdrive]

I feel like you all are talking me off a ledge here; thanks, I appreciate it.

kells76:
Yes, I've been reading some of your postings over the last week (side note: holy freaking ugh. I hope SD18's trip is going well) and I remember the gist of some of your material from 2020/2021. Thank you for your reply.

It sounds like D11 is cooperative about the parenting schedule (i.e., not saying things like "can't I just go back to Mom's", or threatening to walk away, etc)?

---No issues with parenting schedule with respect to time with me. I have noticed that 4 out of 5 times, if there is a complaint about not feeling well for school, it's on Wednesday when I normally drop her off at school and then don't have her again until the weekend. I've brought up the subject of changing to a week-to-week or some other kind of schedule, but D11 says she's happy with the current setup.

Minor children, whether they can articulate it or not, seem to experience a "life and death" feeling of dependence on parents -- this is normal. Kids may not be able to describe why they do what they do, but they are so resourceful at getting needs met in unusual ways, including the most basic needs to feel accepted and cared for and "in the tribe". So again, it's not surprising to me that your D11 is "team Mom" in terms of interests

---Only somewhat. D11 and I share interests that our own things, and she has a few of her own independent interests. I do my best to let D11 know/feel that she doesn't have to be a mini-me to be accepted and loved; I just worry a lot that she's not getting that same message when she's at mom's, and what that means for her.

My H's kids are now 16 and 18 but for many years (like >10) I truly thought that SD18 would always be "team Mom and Stepdad". She began hitting her limit over the last couple of years, culminating in sharing some stuff with H and I a few weeks ago that were reportable and resulted in a CPS call and investigation. She never wants to have a relationship with Stepdad again but is struggling with deeply wanting her mom to love her. SD18 is at the point that she can call Mom's household abusive, and recognize that she wants long term therapy for herself

---Wanting parental approval and love, yup. I saw that a lot with my ex and her mom (undiagnosed, BPD queen traits)  No matter what garbage the ex MIL put her daughter through, she still kept control through, in large part, the need for parental approval (and intimidation, but that's for another day).

Lots of spending time focusing on shared interests, not identities. Praising the kids for diligence, helpfulness, kindness, etc, versus praise for any kind of sociopolitical involvement. Modeling doing sacrificial things to help the community (giving time/money/items), versus superficial "help" ("I wore a bracelet", "I put a sign in the window") that costs us nothing. Non-shaming responses when the kids bring up something they don't know much about (not "how could you not know Detail about Issue X", but "that's cool you're thinking about Issue X... lots of people don't know that actually, ______").

I think our ratio of non-reactive listening to laying down the law has probably been something like 50:1. Lots of deposits in the "trust and listening" bank, few withdrawals.

---I really, really like these concepts. Like I said, I needed some perspective.

ChooseHappiness:

...it seems like you are doing everything you can to look out for your child.

---Thanks, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to do more if it meant guaranteeing a successful outcome.

I don't have advice, but I can tell you that my older child (14) already wants to spend majority time with me and minimal time with my xwBPD. Once children get into the teen years and start to develop agency and a stronger sense of self, they become more aware of the distortions, emotional instability and general insanity of living with a parent with BPD. My older child also spends a lot of time at friends' homes, so he sees what functioning parents are like and is able to make that comparison.

---I'm hoping for something similar. Trying to keep that sense of self preserved.

Thanks for sharing the reading list. I've read Raising Resilient Children and Stop Walking on Eggshells and found them quite useful. Do you think any of them would be appropriate for a 14-year-old? I've been wanting to find something my child could read but haven't had any luck so far.

---Whew, that's a tough one. I think a lot depends on how mature your child is and where they are in the relationship with their BPD parent. You might also have to worry about alienation claims.
A) Is there a school counselor you could ask- they would have access to all sorts of age-appropriate materials.
B) "Understanding the Borderline Mother" might be accessible to a 14 year old, but that's not a safe bet. (If you haven't read it, though, it's worth a read. It is out of print and somewhat spendy, but a used copy off the Internet is really worth it. And I've heard there are free pdfs out there, and if you have a local library; that's another option.)
B.5) I don't really recommend "Surviving a Borderline Parent" in this situation. It's a good read for someone who is out of the FOG and has an adult perspective on relationships, but not for someone who is 14 and (likely?) still working through stages of grief.
C) You could also step back and focus on the problem from a toxic parenting perspective. If you're willing to start simple and sort of reframe BPD as an addiction to avoiding shame, there are a lot of teenager-appropriate resources that deal with having a parent with those sorts of problems. Might be a good place to start your Mental Health Book Club with your 14 year old.

ForeverDad:

... be a wise and unshakable father.  You can stand up - in a validating and empowering way, positive rather than negative patterns and examples - so that life's decisions and paths are not left up to a pre-teen to stumble through

I will have her back for as long as she needs me. :-)

[ForeverDad]

I have noticed that 4 out of 5 times, if there is a complaint about not feeling well for school, it's on Wednesday when I normally drop her off at school and then don't have her again until the weekend. I've brought up the subject of changing to a week-to-week or some other kind of schedule, but D11 says she's happy with the current setup.

Yes, she could be anticipating (dreading) the upcoming exchange.

My Custody Evaluator, a respected child psychologist, stated preschoolers and elementary schoolers (he used up to the age of 10 years) did best with 2-2-3 schedules*, similar to what you have, splitting each week.

* 2-2-3 allows each parent to have an alternate weekend: Mon-Tue overnight with one parent, Wed-Thu overnight with other parent, Fri-Sat-Sun overnights alternated between parents.

What happened in my court orders:  When our order changed when my son was about 11 years old, I told my lawyer I wanted a change to alternate weeks.  That was for my benefit, my ex used exchanges to play games with me and disparage me.  My lawyer replied, "Do you want the court to believe your kid would do better apart from you longer?"  I didn't change it.

My court recognizes that children in their teen usually want a "home base" and offers that one parent step back to being an alternate weekend parent.  Unless your ex wants to be the one to step back, don't do it.  You need as much time with your child as possible.

If you end up splitting weeks until she ages out of the system at age 18, that's okay, you need to be there for her as much as possible.

[Notwendy]

One of the tasks of the teen years is establishing who they are. Teens know they are "not their parent" but may not know who they are. I think there's a tendency to be "not the parent" - not in a negative way but the idea that they want to be themselves- chosing their own clothes, hairstyles, music. They still need parental rules and boundaries and also some space to make their own decisions in an age appropriate way.

This can be hard on the parent- it seems that the teen is overly critical of the parent's choices. A parent with BPD may find this difficult to handle. On the other hand, teens still want approval and love from their parents while at the same time seemingly pushing away from them.

I agree with your concern that your D is going along with her mother's choices. What she has in common with her mother is a changing sense of self- which is more normal for teens to now know who they are yet, but not the norm for an adult. One thought is that the teen is exploring her mother's interests or she's enmeshed and fearful of considering something different from her mother.

It's good that you are aware of this and are involving therapists and also providing her with an emotionally safe environment for part of the time. I don't know what can be legally done. It also helps if your D has other female role models - such as mother's of her friends, female relatives to observe.

It's also possible that some confusion is inevitable. From my BPD mother's perspective, she blamed the issues in our relationship during my teen years on me. On my part, my self esteem was low and I was a people pleaser- afraid to be myself and trying to be like other people because I feared they wouldn't like me otherwise. This may be what your D is doing as well. This took some work on my part with counseling and 12 step groups. Perhaps your being proactive will help your D avoid some of this, but one's mother is a significant person.

[livednlearned]

That's an impressive library!

If you haven't read Bill Eddy's Raising Emotionally Resilient Children When a Parent Has BPD/NPD -- that one is good too. In a nutshell, it's about modeling flexible thinking, managed emotions, and moderate behaviors. That, and I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms is excellent, especially the section on asking validating questions. In addition to the books you've read and the one kells76 mentioned, you'll have a solid in-depth grasp of validation as the navigation helping lead your child to her real self.

Recently I learned about a new skill that's also been super helpful called declarative language. There's a book called Handbook of Declarative Language that is designed for younger kids with social communication issues but I use it for all relationships and it's kinda amazing. It includes things like "I noticed ... ; I wonder ... ; Tell me more about ...'

I'm told the reason communication skills like declarative language and validation are so important is that they lower threat so that your child's real self can develop. Kids with a BPD parent are kind of in a permanent state of threat assessment and will trade off figuring out who they are in exchange for security. I wouldn't underestimate how important it is that you have 50/50 and a kid who feels safe being herself with you.

The peer stuff through middle school will likely determine which way D11 takes this stuff. If you're really worried, what do you think about reaching out to the guidance counselor or family specialist to share your insights? A really good GC can be an ally for you and your child that kind of exists outside the dynamic you and your ex are in, and they're skilled at understanding how confusing tween/teen identity stuff is.

SD26 experimented with transitioning between 16 and things phased out somewhere in her early 20s. H's approach was to slow walk things as much as possible and to not give anything steam. Today she looks like a girl, goes by her given female name, is in a relationship with a BF, talked about having a baby. I believe she identifies as non-binary but she's been trans, gay, and bisexual too. We kind of shrug. It would be different if she wanted to take drugs or get surgery and thought it was headed that way until it wasn't.

[Gerda]

It also sounds to me like you are doing a good job so far. My mom probably has BPD, and my parents divorced when I was 15, but my mom was always my primary caretaker and my dad was hardly involved in my life (even when my parents were together). It probably would have been a lot better for me if my dad had been more like you.

I just want to add one thing that you might already know about from the books you read, but as your daughter enters the teen years it's especially important for you to support her, because that's when BPD moms really start to get crazy. It's normal for teens to start becoming more independent of their parents, but moms with BPD see that as an abandonment and betrayal. My relationship with my mom really went downhill when I became a teenager, and even worse when I went off to college. She hated that I "left her." She hated that I made friends that I wanted to hang out with more than her. She hated that I had a boyfriend that I wanted to be with more than her. She would go on and on about how much she missed when I was a baby and was with her all the time, and said she wished I could just be a baby forever.

Having a supportive dad would have really helped back then, but I just had to rely on supportive friends. Fortunately my friends turned out to be pretty OK and I didn't fall in with a "bad crowd" but I might have just been lucky.

I also have a younger sister who wasn't so lucky. She still lives with our mom, even though she's in her mid-30's now. She's got so many mental (and physical) health issues that she never finished college and can't hold down a job to support herself financially. I really wonder if my mom saw how I "escaped" and then (maybe even subconsciously) sabotaged my younger sister so that she could never leave her.

So yes, keep being a supportive dad as your daughter enters these years where she is figuring out who she is and learning to be an independent adult, because her mom is probably going to try her best to sabotage that if she can.