Another lapse with son...

[SaltyDawg]

Hello,

   I am pretty much journaling about my pwBPD, my wife and how she is evolving to gain control over her dysregulations, what is causing them, and how she is going about on resolving her own issues - in other words 'fixing herself'.  I am sharing this publically, in order to illustrate what an active recovery looks like as it is not an ideal situation where everything is miraculously healed - remission/recovery has setbacks, and this is one of them, the 3rd one this year with the other two occuring January 17th with our daughter, and the previous one, July 1st with our son.  This one occurred on Friday the 12th, where my wife lost it, albeit briefly on our son.

   In a recent NAMI meeting that I attended, I was asked if my wife was diagnosed when sharing the July 1st lapse - I had to say "not formally"; however, my wife is self-aware of having had all 9 symptom groups AND her therapist is treating her for them, as is our couple's therapist who has taken extensive notes while my wife actually displayed and/or discussed symptoms openly during our therapy sessions last year so a lot of non-verbals indicating that she is indeed diagnosed.  However, in my wife's mind, she has issues she is working on with all of these differing symptoms.  I don't care if it is formally labelled or not - as long as meaningful progress is being made, I'm happy.

   As I previously mentioned in a different post, my wife's workplace had major layoffs, including a person she has scapegoated over the years and has assigned all of the companies issues with this person.  With the absence of this person, and no-one to blame... this now requires my wife to step up to the plate, take more accountability and do more work = more stress = higher likelihood of her dysregulating.

   From what I understand, my wife 'keeps it together' at work; however, my son adds additional stress for her at home (on summer break) as he too can dysregulate as he has some oppositional defiance tendencies (doesn't meet ODD criteria), and I also believe he also exhibits some of the symptoms of ADHD but doesn't meet enough of the symptoms of ADHD either - however, his high energy and willingness to pushback against my wife (ironically using similar, yet weaponized behaviors, where I enact boundaries with my wife) and this will trigger my wife when my wife is stressed.  A year ago my son had enough of the symptoms of BPD; however, he was too young.  As my wife improved in her behaviors, my son's behaviors also improved naturally as the bad example my wife was illustrating for him was substantially reduced, for the most part has been corrected by my wife.

   Even though this was the 2nd time this month where she had a lapse with our son this past Friday evening in earshot of one of his friends.  I let her dysregulate (again, as she was able to recover the last time when I was present in the room), and this time, she was able to recover in record time, about 15 minutes, where she was able to re-regulate herself - this time where I was not invited to come in and play 'referee' between my wife and our child = PROGRESS = her new found ability to self-re-regulate once she realizes that her behavior was excessive for the situation.  She was still a bit upset with our son's behavior towards her; however, after a sleep cycle for my wife - my wife once again apologized for her behaviors towards our son, and to me too the following morning - a very pleasant surprise for me - a display of genuine unsolicited remorse from my wife - it's new behavior for her and it is very much appreciated by me even if it was caused by something that I wish could have been avoided.  I  am actually enjoying watching my wife grow emotionally leaving the toddler-like emotional behaviors behind her and moving to more adult-like behaviors, even though there are setbacks from time to time, and it not always smooth.

   I did approach my son, and asked him "not to push back so hard as that makes mom mad" [as hornets] "as that sets her off" - it seemed to be recieved with a glazed over look, as I also would not let our son have additional playdates over (at the same time) as it was after supper and it was getting dark, a boundary I initially set as I wanted the day to ramp down (not ramp up as my son wanted) as I knew my wife had a bad day, he went to mom to get a different opinion, and mom also enforced that boundary too for similar reasoning; however, the  outcome was quite explosive as it involved a bit of yelling by both my wife and son.

   Previously my wife was unaware of her behaviors; however, she is now.  As I won't have another individual therapy session until next month - so if anyone has experience with this I would greatly appreciate it?   Being mindful, where our middle-school aged child attempts to copy powerful tools without finesse, or lacking tact, by pushing back on his mom with yelling (I use a cool calm tone with a firm and consistently state "no" to certain things I don't want to do for my wife); whereas, my son gets very animated, and raises his voice at an inappropriate time and attempts to manipulate her to meet his wants whether is is appropriate or not from an adult perspective.

   Using the tools I use on my wife, has had the unintended consequence of our son trying to copy similar things to 'get his way' in a very child-like way.  I am shifting my focus on to our son, in order to get him to take more age-appropriate responsibility with his chores and how he handles friendships.  An issue with our son is he does not want to do therapy, as he only liked 'play therapy' and he has outgrown this (too big and rough) so he doesn't want to do any kind of therapy as he was being guided to be more responsible.  For the time being 'therapy' is not an option for him, so this will have to come from me.

   I get it, that a child doesn't want to grow up, and have responsibilities, many adults have this attitude, like my pwBPD as well who is finally starting to 'grow up' emotionally.  So, I am looking for parenting tips that I may not have thought of, or my therapist has thought of either to use on our son in order to encourage/persuade better behaviors from him being mindful that he too has some anger management issues [not dissimilar to BPD], as I am presently at a loss on how to do this without losing any of the gained ground with my wife as well - it's a fine line that I need to navigate here, as I wish to avoid triggering BPD-like symptoms in him, but encourage healthy emotional behaviors from him too.

   Suggestions?

SD

P.S.  Take care with self-care.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Tangled mangled]

My son is 10 and likely has ADHD, I’m recently diagnosed. Double whammy ! I get dysregulated but not a short fuse - usually after asking my children to do anything for atleast 5 times.
My dysregulation centres around not being heard, and involves raising my voice not shouting but that’s occurred in the past.

I manage my son’s behaviour with consequences and I have been very consistent with my response. I usually take everything away and my aim is to remove everything fun in his life- tv, tablet, special treats, etc.

I’ve heard people say not to discipline them when their behaviour is part of their disorder eg ADHD, but I also know there’s a fine line between enabling bad behaviour and treating it as part of a condition.

My son is no longer showing signs of oppositional defiant disorder- although there’s occasional back chatting.

My boundaries are clear too- if you become physical with me your mum , you are 10 years old, the police will listen to my call. If you backchat and are disrespectful I will not engage with you. You will spend time in your bedroom thinking about your behaviour.
At the extreme- shouting, blaming and backchatting altogether- I engaged him in household chores that continued as long as he continued to backchat.
I apologise to my son when things go wrong and I lose my sh8t , we usually have a debrief when it’s calm. I have learned that there will always be a rupture between me and my children but there should always be a repair.

.

[Tangled mangled]

My son had signs of ODD when we were still living with his uBpd dad. He’s dad use to weaponise the behaviour too. Before I became aware of Bpd, my ex scapegoated my son- so he would enable bad behaviour then make it to look like my son was the cause of the chaos at home.

When I became aware of bpd/npd I realised my priority was to protect my children. The more they felt safe and confident that there was a responsible adult on their side, the defiance reduced. Even the not listening / ignoring instructions has reduced. ATM I get a response from them after asking twice.

[SaltyDawg]

My son is 10 and likely has ADHD, I’m recently diagnosed. Double whammy ! I get dysregulated but not a short fuse - usually after asking my children to do anything for atleast 5 times.
My dysregulation centres around not being heard, and involves raising my voice not shouting but that’s occurred in the past.

TM,

Our son is 12 going on 13.  Not diagnosed; however, we did approach his pediatrician on the issue, and she indicated that he should grow out most of the issues by this age - and for the most part he has; however, there is fidgeting, and has a constant need to talk and interrupt on topics he wants to talk about.  Like you, it gets very frustrating when he is asked to do something several times, and only the threat of punitive action (removal of screens, cancel a playdate/trips will he begrudgingly comply with what he is asked to do.

I do ask my son to turn off/pause his devices when I am talking to him as I do find that very irritating as I perceive it as a 'lack of respect', and I too raise my voice to gain his attention - I personally do not see this as being dysregulated.   My wife, amps it up when this happens to her and becomes a bit irrational with "Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger" while being fully enraged with uncontrolled yelling at our son.  I sense you describe yourself being dysregulated may actually be natural anger, which is a legitimate emotion when dealing with a child that appears not to listen.  Raising your voice, while maintaining control of what you are telling him in a controlled manner with a raised voice while being angry/mad at him may not be dysregulation at all - I see this as expressing an appropriate level of anger and frustration as you feel that you are not being heard by him.

I manage my son’s behaviour with consequences and I have been very consistent with my response. I usually take everything away and my aim is to remove everything fun in his life- tv, tablet, special treats, etc.

I try to do the same; however, I am not quite as strict - when my son was in therapy, we agreed to a 'warning prior to execution' of 'consequences'.  So, he has learned to push the behavior boundary to the limit before consequences are given out.  I too try to be consistent with my response; however, when there is triangulation present, where my wife can either be an enabler (defends my sons position) or even more strict than I am (she is triggered, and tears into him) - depending on her mood swing at the moment, it makes it difficult to maintain a consistent level of response on my part.

In our next couple's therapy session, I plan on shining a light on this issue as it is indeed frustrating for me to be either overly reinforced or seemingly being deliberately undermined in appropriate discipline for our son.

I’ve heard people say not to discipline them when their behaviour is part of their disorder eg ADHD, but I also know there’s a fine line between enabling bad behaviour and treating it as part of a condition.

As I alluded to previously, I think consistency is the key.  Some provisions can be made to accommodate a disorder; however, there needs to be appropriate consequences for their bad behaviors that they can comprehend and process.  I have finally, through the process of trial and error, been able to do this with my wife's behaviors; however, now that my wife is better; our son, in his quest for individuation and seeks a similar level of freedom as his 17 year old sister is trying to take advantage of the inconsistent pattern my wife is exhibiting regarding his discipline and is attempting to triangulate her against me, when my wife is overly accommodating towards him [enabling] OR he is attempting to triangulate me against her, when my wife is dysregulating and he is seeking protection from me.  I can definitely empathise with our son; however, even though he is on the receiving end of conflicting discipline from my wife, I need to be the rock; however, I also need to adapt on the fly to counteract, often unsuccessfully what my wife is doing at the moment.

This is where I need advice as it is a continuously fluid and dynamic situation that cannot be dealt with consistently.

My son is no longer showing signs of oppositional defiant disorder- although there’s occasional back chatting.

I am happy for you.  My son, for the most part is that way too except when he pushes back.  Up until recently, I actually encouraged him to push back on my wife when my wife was dysregulating by asking "please stop yelling", "I need to take a break to settle down", etc.  However, now that my wife is actually behaving much, much better, I am trying to encourage him not to do this anymore - instead he still does it, and is now extending it to me too, when I ask him to do things he doesn't like.

When my wife was extremely dysregulated - I did everything I could do to get him out of the bad situation at home.  This meant arranging an excessive amount of playdates, engaging in sports, and so forth which he has grown to expect as an entitlement instead of learning how to self-soothe when he is not allowed to do what he wants.  Perhaps I was overcompensating at the time; however, I had a need to expose both of our children to healthier dynamics of other parents in the community.

Now that my wife has gotten much better in the past half year, I find that I need to start reversing my encouragement of pushing back on my wife with our son.  I think he enjoys the empowerment I had given him, and now that I am trying re-correct and over-correction on my part it is a bit frustrating for me, as he is taking advantage of the situation to manipulate the situation to address his wants / perceived entitlement.

This is also an area that I need some suggestions on how to implement, as it is appearing that I am reversing my course (being inconsistent) on how I am handling our son.

My boundaries are clear too- if you become physical with me your mum , you are 10 years old, the police will listen to my call. If you backchat and are disrespectful I will not engage with you. You will spend time in your bedroom thinking about your behaviour.

Fortunately, my son only became 'physical' briefly only when my wife's relationship with me was in crisis two years ago at my wife's worst.  While I never did call the police, I did threaten to the point of driving him to the police station to let him explain his side of the story and did have our son's therapist at the time address these issues.

Because of my wife's previous behaviors, his bedroom was a 'safe space' so I couldn't use that as a punishment; however, taking away the screens was much more effective for him.

At the extreme- shouting, blaming and backchatting altogether- I engaged him in household chores that continued as long as he continued to backchat.

This is where you and I differ in philosophy; however, I do appreciate your perspective.  I will explain my reasoning - I believe that children should have age appropriate chores (washing the dishes, doing their own laundry, dusting and vacuuming up their areas, and so forth) as it instills responsibility.  I do not use chores as a punishment for him, as I don't want them to be perceived as a punishment, but rather as a necessity in order to keep the home running smoothly where everyone pulls their fair share of work.

I apologise to my son when things go wrong and I lose my sh8t , we usually have a debrief when it’s calm. I have learned that there will always be a rupture between me and my children but there should always be a repair.

I like this.  I do this with both my wife and my son when they respectively lose their sh8t.  Not so much our daughter, as she is a people pleaser and will go above and beyond not to annoy my wife, and when she tries to annoy me, it really doesn't affect me too much as she is becoming a young adult and more often than not, she is being sarcastic.  When our son resets and becomes remorseful, usually in half an hour give or take a few minutes, we do the 'debrief' when he has calmed down where I ask targeted questions, so he can come up with the appropriate answer himself, so he can implement it, as it is his idea to implement.  However, for my wife, her reset is usually a sleep cycle, so it takes longer to do for her.  It is as though I have two children with 'anger management' issues; however, one is my wife, and the other is our child.

My son had signs of ODD when we were still living with his uBpd dad. He’s dad use to weaponise the behaviour too. Before I became aware of Bpd, my ex scapegoated my son- so he would enable bad behaviour then make it to look like my son was the cause of the chaos at home.

When I first became aware of BPD, I was the one being scapegoated by my wife.  At the time both of our children were her world, and I was the bad guy.  It wasn't until I started to implement firm, fair, and consistent boundaries before I was able to pushback on her distorted and often false narrative of her feelings based facts followed by me learning how to validate her feeling with empathy and support while ignoring so from her perspective, she felt heard.

When I became aware of bpd/npd I realised my priority was to protect my children. The more they felt safe and confident that there was a responsible adult on their side, the defiance reduced. Even the not listening / ignoring instructions has reduced. ATM I get a response from them after asking twice.

I too, after having to figure it out with the assistance of a therapist and BPD family, I needed to shift my priority away from my BPD wife, to protecting our children.  This worked, and even my wife eventually figured out it was not me, whom she was scapegoating, but it was her, and slowly evolved into understanding she was the problem, and that she needed to change - which has been going on in earnest for the past year+.

My wife's behaviors continue to evolve for the better, except the occasional lapse, to which I am addressing the most recent one in this thread.  My wife did recognize and did apologize, and is trying to do the best she can - she is still learning, as she is getting better, and that continues to give me hope.


Thanks for listening and providing feedback.  I look forward to more feedback from you, or anyone who resonates with my situation, and it is greatly appreciated.

Take care.

SD

[Tangled mangled]

SD
From what you have described here and in other posts it seems your son’s behaviour is directly related to the dynamics between you and your ubpd spouse.

He seems to be playing both of you against each other because that’s the baseline he knows. You have a good handle of the situation.

Perhaps the focus should be on maintaining a united front with your wife- rather than putting out tiny fires set up by your D12.
I once received advice about letting the other parent deal with the child’s poor behaviour without getting involved. I’m aware that in your situation you have had to step in as if to separate 2 children fighting.

When your wife and son kick off- is it possible to step off the triangle? Since she has some degree of awareness of how her behaviour contributes to the conflict with s12, is that a boundary you can implement? Eg when you both kick off, and you Mrs SD starts amping things up- I’ll go to the garden shed/park/ shop/ insert place here- to avoid getting involved. Since your son’s safety is no way compromised ( I haven’t heard you mention concerns around safety), allowing Mrs SD deal with things even though they get worse may just allow both of them to face the consequences of their own poor behaviour.

It sends a message to your son that Mrs SD competent as a parent to deal with his behaviour. I understand your concerns around her discipline being harsh, but maybe you stepping in to soften things is not helping.

Undermining:
I can relate to what you described above about your pwbpd undermining you - I think that’s the most difficult aspect of parenting with a disordered spouse . It’s also very damaging for children as it confuses their understanding of right/wrong behaviour. As you have mentioned addressing this in therapy is this another opportunity to implement a boundary eg stating a boundary during couples therapy that you would implement if she undermines you.

My understanding around raising boys is that dad’s role in the family is more powerful than mum’s. I may be wrong but boys would mirror their fathers to minute details and your wife undermining your authority in the family- although may seem to serve your son now - eg he gets his way/away with bad behaviour but ultimately she’s attacking your son’s masculinity.

In my experience dealing with a male bpd and raising 2 boys this was one of the pressing concerns I had. Not just the poor behaviour from my stbxh but my boys witnessing me challenging his poor behaviour- from the outside/ children’s perspective it may have appeared that I was attacking his masculinity even though I was infuriated because there wasn’t healthy masculinity or authority in the household.


Side note: about using chores as consequences for bad behaviour- so far, my son is happy to do his chores- mostly doing age appropriate chores for himself - cleaning his room, his laundry etc.
My take on this method is that an idle hand is the devil’s instrument and in the wider context when he becomes an adult, the consequence for misdemeanours is sometimes community service.
The chores that are given as consequence for poor behaviour are jobs around communal areas of our home- lounge, kitchen and bathroom and they are age appropriate and he’s supervised.
It’s not the best method for every child but the only time this was implemented it worked and his unreasonable outbursts have been kept at bay.

[Tangled mangled]

Thanks for the clarification. Due to my profession, I hold myself accountable and to very high standards- hence my reference to my anger as dysregulation. I know I could have done better and the emotional dysregulation II was referring to is me taking longer to unplug from the drama, eg when I ve reached the point of anger , my voice will remain raised longer than it ought to be.

[Notwendy]

Hi SD- I try to share the child's perspective in these situations. For one, the marital bond is a different perspective than that of a child. How your son perceives his mother is obviously very different than how you see her.

A child's adolescence can be a stressful time for even an emotionally mature parent and it isn't a suprise it would be even more so with a parent with BPD.

The child is becoming more autonomous. They don't know who they are yet, but they know that aren't their parent and so they may be more critical of their parent and more resistant to their parents' ideas. They need a combination of space to develop and boundaries and this "line" does move as they mature and become more responsible. You can't be too loose with them but you can't be too controlling.

Teens deal with emotional swings due to hormonal changes. Add this to the emotional swings of BPD and it can be quite a combination.

Some memories from my own teen years. I did not get along with my mother. I saw her behavior. She did things I wouldn't do and if I did them, I'd be punished for that. Yet somehow I had to obey her. Also my father minimized her behavior. One difference- he may have been "in love" with her. I wasn't in love like that- I had a different perspective.

Teens are developing their own boundaries. These could protect your son one day from having a relationship with a disordered person. I don't suggest you speak poorly of his mother too him, but also don't try to invalidate his perception if it's correct. It's normal to push back at abusive behavior. We were not allowed to say no to my mother. You don't want to normalize being treated poorly for your son.

This doesn't mean you allow your son to misbehave or be disrespectful. Teens need boundaries. But he may aggravate your wife because he isn't walking on eggshells or minimizing her behavior. Teens can be perceived as a threat to family dynamics because, they are old enough to know that something isn't OK with their BPD parent and it's harder to get them to buy into normalizing or minimizing it.

BPD affects all relationships and it's possible that with emotional growth, your child's relationship with their BPD parent might change. Although my BPD mother blamed me for issues- her BPD also affected the relationship. I connected better with my father.

School vacations were a challenge for BPD mother. I think the best thing my father did for us was to get us away from home during these times. We spent time with his family members and other times, we were enrolled in summer activities and camps. I think it also helped BPD mother to have us be away from home. It also benefitted us.

In summary- I don't think it's possible to prevent a teenager from aggravating their parent at times. I think that is part of normal adolescence. The line is at actual misbehavior- truancy, drugs, poor school work, and being disrespectful to the parent. Is the child actually misbehaving or is this anxiety? Anxiety can cause fidgeting and not paying attention. Having a BPD parent can be an anxious situation for a child. Teens will have emotional mood swings- help him to know how to deal with that. Have him go to his room to calm down if he needs to.

Have discipline and boundaries but positive reinforcement works better than punishment. Something like a playdate after he cleans his room is better than threatening no play date if he doesn't clean it.

If your son's mother is being verbally or emotionally abusive to him, is he being taught to accept this and let her do it? How can he learn to be respectful while also having boundaries- that is his task to help with.

[Tangled mangled]

NW raised some important points about teenage years and dealing with a Bpd parent.
My mum who is a bpd/NPD scapegoated me and this was achieved very easily. I remember she had a tough time with my brothers and it became worse when they became teenagers because it was just impossible for them to be recruited to be her caretakers.
She resorted to divide and conquer- pitching us siblings against each other. While she had a grip on me , with my brothers it was near impossible and that caused her a high degree of stress. Is it possible that your teenage daughter leaving home for college has also contributed the conflict between your wife and son.

I also had this idea from observing my son and his bpd dad that the pwbpd is hoping to cash in on their investment during the idealisation phase of any relationship- with a spouse the pay off is more certain than with children( male children). Girls can easily sympathise with mum and see her as a victim while boys naturally have a narcissistic/self- focused tendencies and are more difficult to recruit as caretakers. My s10 is quick to call out his dad’s behaviour.

Although teenagers, both boys and girls have bpd/npd traits as part of their development, that could make them difficult to parent.
Eg, My ex husband  behaved  like a 15 year old boy who will start working out( dumbbells etc) at a time in the morning when the children needed to be dropped off at school, I couldn’t imagine a teenage child dealing with that.

[SaltyDawg]

From what you have described here and in other posts it seems your son’s behaviour is directly related to the dynamics between you and your ubpd spouse.

He seems to be playing both of you against each other because that’s the baseline he knows. You have a good handle of the situation.

Yes, I would agree our son's behavior, at times, is directly related to the dynamics - I try to be consistent whereas depending on my wife's mood at the moment is either too strict or too lenient.  I try to be the goldielocks disciplinarian neither too hard, nor too soft - it's tricky when attempting to provide a unified front when my wife gets triggered.

That said, when my wife isn't triggered [most of the time since January up until this month], generally speaking we have provide a unified front and is generally in the 4-6 range (I do compromise, and I do feel that my wife also compromises as well - still new, so we are still adjusting to this dynamic).  I'm thinking we need to do some tweaking when my wife 'loses her stuff' and becomes dysregulated on one or both of the children which is a new aspect to unified parenting to me.

Perhaps the focus should be on maintaining a united front with your wife- rather than putting out tiny fires set up by your S12.
I once received advice about letting the other parent deal with the child’s poor behaviour without getting involved. I’m aware that in your situation you have had to step in as if to separate 2 children fighting.

In the most recent situation, I was able to fully separate myself from the drama triangle that my son and wife got into and let both my wife and my son suffer the natural consequences of their actions towards each other.  However, the previous ones I was asked by our children to be the referee as though two children were fighting as they knew my wife had gone too far in both of these situations and I would try to be as diplomatic as possible telling my wife to back off.

I do want to focus on maintaining the 'United Front' with my wife barring any other unforeseen circumstance this will be the focus of our next couples therapy session next week.

When your wife and son kick off- is it possible to step off the triangle? Since she has some degree of awareness of how her behaviour contributes to the conflict with s12, is that a boundary you can implement? Eg when you both kick off, and you Mrs SD starts amping things up- I’ll go to the garden shed/park/ shop/ insert place here- to avoid getting involved. Since your son’s safety is no way compromised ( I haven’t heard you mention concerns around safety), allowing Mrs SD deal with things even though they get worse may just allow both of them to face the consequences of their own poor behaviour.

For this particular episode, that is exactly what I did - I did not get looped into the triangle. My wife, after the fact, after she re-regulates she now has full awareness of how her behavior contributes to the conflict with our son.  Unfortunately, as my wife has a history of being violent, to the point of being reported to authorities by our therapist.  On the January lapse incident, she did throw a snow shovel in the direction of our daughter in my wife's uncontrolled frustration.  In other words, she has the potential to be unsafe towards the children when she loses her control, so I need to monitor the situation as it happens.  I know my wife would never intentionally harm our children; however, when she becomes enraged to the point of being irrational, there is no indication on how far she will go, and it happens so fast, literally less than a second.

I will draw a comparison of my wife's recovery to taming a wild animal.  The recovery process suppresses their irrational but natural instincts with logic.  However, if my wife becomes triggered, the suppressed instincts kick back in when logic no longer works.

It sends a message to your son that Mrs SD competent as a parent to deal with his behaviour. I understand your concerns around her discipline being harsh, but maybe you stepping in to soften things is not helping.

That is definitely the message I want to send to our son that both of us are competent parents to deal with his behavior, and ideally would like to present the unified front when doing this - this area needs works for both my wife and me too.

When comparing myself to other parents, I am probably a 6 or 7 on a scale of 1 to 10 for being too strict; whereas my wife is either a 1/2 or a 9/10, nothing in between; however, this is part of that black/white all/nothing thinking kicking in when she is in one of her moods.

Undermining:
I can relate to what you described above about your pwbpd undermining you - I think that’s the most difficult aspect of parenting with a disordered spouse . It’s also very damaging for children as it confuses their understanding of right/wrong behaviour. As you have mentioned addressing this in therapy is this another opportunity to implement a boundary eg stating a boundary during couples therapy that you would implement if she undermines you.

I agree completely about the 'undermining' bit and being the most difficult aspect of parenting when the other parent is triggered.  I will definitely be raising this issue in the next couple's therapy session - ideally I would like to integrate my wife into a unified front so my wife feels as though she is heard and validated rather than creating an adversarial situation where I have to shut her down again as I wish to avoid inculcating contempt in my wife as that might be counterproductive towards my wife's recovery as it has been in the past.

My understanding around raising boys is that dad’s role in the family is more powerful than mum’s. I may be wrong but boys would mirror their fathers to minute details and your wife undermining your authority in the family- although may seem to serve your son now - eg he gets his way/away with bad behaviour but ultimately she’s attacking your son’s masculinity.

In my experience dealing with a male bpd and raising 2 boys this was one of the pressing concerns I had. Not just the poor behaviour from my stbxh but my boys witnessing me challenging his poor behaviour- from the outside/ children’s perspective it may have appeared that I was attacking his masculinity even though I was infuriated because there wasn’t healthy masculinity or authority in the household.

Interesting theory - I can see your perspective here.  I feel as though my son is leveraging the situation where the 'undermining of authority' is to his own advantage (I would do the same if I were in his shoes - I get it, at one point in time I was also a boy his age many years ago).  A year and a half ago, when my relationship with my wife was at its worst and I was in pure 'crisis management mode', I would encourage my son to challenge my wife on stopping her poor behaviors (e.g. "Mom, please stop yelling") when she was dysregulated as my primary goal at that time was "all abuse must stop" as it was a very toxic homelife for everyone in the home.

From this perspective, I can see where my wife might not feel heard in the family, and she has since expressed this several times inside of therapy.  I'm not proud that I encouraged him to use this 'survival' tool that deliberately undermined my wife's authority; however, it was necessary to minimize the emotional damage being done to him at the time by stopping the madness.

Side note: about using chores as consequences for bad behaviour- so far, my son is happy to do his chores- mostly doing age appropriate chores for himself - cleaning his room, his laundry etc.
My take on this method is that an idle hand is the devil’s instrument and in the wider context when he becomes an adult, the consequence for misdemeanours is sometimes community service.
The chores that are given as consequence for poor behaviour are jobs around communal areas of our home- lounge, kitchen and bathroom and they are age appropriate and he’s supervised.
It’s not the best method for every child but the only time this was implemented it worked and his unreasonable outbursts have been kept at bay.

I agree with everything you said, and understand it as my wife wants to do this with our son with nearly identical reasoning [when she is regulated], that you articulated.  My parents did this to me and my brother as well when I was that age, and I also know how much I resented this, and how unfair it felt as I was being penalized in this manner - as a result, I avoid some of my chores as an adult, and it makes my wife very unhappy, when I push back.  This aspect of my opinion is likely related to my own childhood (FOO issues) and I do not want to create any more resentment in my son than what he already has.

Thanks for the clarification. Due to my profession, I hold myself accountable and to very high standards- hence my reference to my anger as dysregulation. I know I could have done better and the emotional dysregulation II was referring to is me taking longer to unplug from the drama, eg when I ve reached the point of anger , my voice will remain raised longer than it ought to be.

Only if you are comfortable sharing, I am curious about your profession.

I am now retired; however, I was a licensed merchant mariner (merchant navy) and was trained for extreme situations (severe weather, piracy, war zones, dealing with employees and workers from all socioeconomic levels, all walks of life with different customs, all religions, all continents except Antarctica.  The only time I would yell at someone would be if their life was in immediate danger (e.g. "watch out [for that load above your head that is about to fall]") or if it was to speak above loud machinery aboard the vessel. 

With my training, I had no problems coming face to face with bad actors with a machine gun pointed at me who have been identified as terrorists by our government as I knew my government had my back and would effectively deal with them; whereas, the terror my wife has previously given to our family affected me and our family much more than any terrorist could do, by several orders of magnitude - while this has calmed down significantly since it peaked in September - December of 2022, it is still present in these 'lapses' my wife is having.

I feel the need to stay focused until these lapses also become a distant memory (at least two years of remission) - until that happens I will remain focused on what needs to be done to ensure the safety and wellbeing of our children, myself, and my wife too.

Two years ago, I would have prioritized myself dead last, now I place my own priority in front of my wife, even though I have not openly told her this as I now realize that I can only take care of myself (and my minor children too) and any of my remaining energy will be directed in her direction which by most standards (except hers) is more than sufficient.

I would like to thank you for your feedback and perspectives, it is greatly appreciated, and has allowed me to focus better on what still needs to be done.

[SaltyDawg]

Hi SD- I try to share the child's perspective in these situations. For one, the marital bond is a different perspective than that of a child. How your son perceives his mother is obviously very different than how you see her.

A child's adolescence can be a stressful time for even an emotionally mature parent and it isn't a suprise it would be even more so with a parent with BPD.

The child is becoming more autonomous. They don't know who they are yet, but they know that aren't their parent and so they may be more critical of their parent and more resistant to their parents' ideas. They need a combination of space to develop and boundaries and this "line" does move as they mature and become more responsible. You can't be too loose with them but you can't be too controlling.

NW,

   Thanks for responding - I must apologize for a late reply.  I agree with everything you said here, especially about the part about having a balance where one is neither too loose nor too controlling.  Our son is very insightful about his mother, and I validate his opinion, when appropriate, I'll be a little more specific in a few minutes...  I strive to be the 'goldielocks' dad who does it 'just right'; however my wife goes a bit too loose, and then is too rigid when she is triggered.  I am glad it is no longer all or nothing thinking, but she is coming around to shades of gray thinking here and will now actively seek out my advice on this so we can be unified in our parenting, when she is regulated which is >99% of the time now.
 

Teens deal with emotional swings due to hormonal changes. Add this to the emotional swings of BPD and it can be quite a combination.

Our son is still a tween, for the next couple of months until he turns 13.  He recognizes his mother's emotional swings, and generally can compensate for them; however, he too has emotional swings similar to BPD symptom of "Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger" especially when he is hungry and tired. 

On the flip side of the coin he is very much aware and can identify other dysfunctional relationships in my daughter's boyfriend's mother and one other friend's mother he has too - he has a good set of tools from when he was in his own individual 'play' therapy, which he has since refused to go to [therapy].  So, under the guidance of my own therapist (his therapist's supervisor), I have become my son's therapist at times, as needed.

Some memories from my own teen years. I did not get along with my mother. I saw her behavior. She did things I wouldn't do and if I did them, I'd be punished for that. Yet somehow I had to obey her. Also my father minimized her behavior. One difference- he may have been "in love" with her. I wasn't in love like that- I had a different perspective.

I can see your perspective on this too, especially on the double standard part - fortunately my wife can now see this double standard as well, a relatively new development for her, and is actively working on reducing / eliminating it - however, it can reappear when she becomes triggered.  For the most part, this is now being addressed by my wife and is a minor issue, as my wife is self-aware when this happens, and will do repairs after the fact, which she previously never did - excellent progress for my wife on this.  Ideally this should never happen; however, it is tremendous improvement from over a year ago.

Teens are developing their own boundaries. These could protect your son one day from having a relationship with a disordered person. I don't suggest you speak poorly of his mother too him, but also don't try to invalidate his perception if it's correct. It's normal to push back at abusive behavior. We were not allowed to say no to my mother. You don't want to normalize being treated poorly for your son.

Again, I agree with you completely.  I do not speak poorly of his mother to him; however, I do validate him when his mother is dysregulating - it is a fine line to walk, and for the most part, according to my own therapist, and our couple's therapist - I feel as though I am doing an adequate job on this aspect. 

However, there is a point where our son's perception of him being held accountable is being perceived as abusive by him.  My wife has one way of yelling at him when he doesn't do things; whereas, I use probative questions, so he can come up with his own conclusion on how he should be acting, especially when it comes to taking care of his backyard chickens that he petitioned so hard for during COVID with his mother's backing.  Both his mom and I had him agree, as part of unified parenting, he would fully take care for the chickens; however, after the novelty wore off he has been trying to reduce what he had agreed to.  It takes a bit more time to use my method as it is in essence SET communication with him (he doesn't get triggered by the "T" like my wife does) in order for him to come to the realization on what he needs to do, and he does it willingly without much pushback.  However, this is not fast enough for my wife, and gets triggered and she yells at him, creating some hard feelings; however, he does understand her motivation behind it.

He is still prepubescent, so I am hoping to guide him with a strong sense of self so he can avoid the pitfalls I encountered in my wife and life and avoids a dysregulated relationship if and when he becomes interested in a romantic relationship with someone.

This doesn't mean you allow your son to misbehave or be disrespectful. Teens need boundaries. But he may aggravate your wife because he isn't walking on eggshells or minimizing her behavior. Teens can be perceived as a threat to family dynamics because, they are old enough to know that something isn't OK with their BPD parent and it's harder to get them to buy into normalizing or minimizing it.

I agree here too.  I have ensured both of our children are aware that when something is not "OK" to pushback with their own boundaries.  I've lead the way to create unified pushback on my wife, I think it was part of her self-realization process that has become successful. 

Now that our children have the tools, our son, is trying to use these emotional tools to further his own agenda, and that needs to be rolled back slightly to accommodate my wife's 'new to her' less dysregulated and less disordered behaviors as she continues to become less of a threat to our children and me too, even though I am closely monitoring the situation with her job and how she is reacting to these new stresses.

BPD affects all relationships and it's possible that with emotional growth, your child's relationship with their BPD parent might change. Although my BPD mother blamed me for issues- her BPD also affected the relationship. I connected better with my father.

My wife is doing a lot less blaming these days, and consequently there is a lot less stress.  However, with the new dynamic at her work, her stress levels have amped up and the BPD traits are rearing their ugly head here and there when it becomes too much for my wife and my wife has lashed out twice this month at our son after a period of much reduced dysregulation since January.  The good news is my wife can now recognize this, and is actively doing 'repairs' after the fact.  I do enjoy watching my wife grow emotionally as she is fully vested in getting herself to be seen as 'normal'.

A year ago, I connected much better with our daughter than my wife, she now connects with her BF which is understandable as she is becoming a young adult.  However, our son is more connected to my wife than he is with me, part of the enmeshment; however, we are slowly 'weaning' him from that.

School vacations were a challenge for BPD mother. I think the best thing my father did for us was to get us away from home during these times. We spent time with his family members and other times, we were enrolled in summer activities and camps. I think it also helped BPD mother to have us be away from home. It also benefitted us.

Same here, our kids are enrolled in a myriad of summer activities and camps, I believe the socialization will benefit both of them immensely.  Now that things are calmer at home, our son has expressed an interest to do more stuff at home, including inviting many high energy 12-year olds over at a time.  This I need to moderate somewhat, as I want to strike a good balance so my wife does not become overwhelmed as she did in the past.

In summary- I don't think it's possible to prevent a teenager from aggravating their parent at times. I think that is part of normal adolescence. The line is at actual misbehavior- truancy, drugs, poor school work, and being disrespectful to the parent. Is the child actually misbehaving or is this anxiety? Anxiety can cause fidgeting and not paying attention. Having a BPD parent can be an anxious situation for a child. Teens will have emotional mood swings- help him to know how to deal with that. Have him go to his room to calm down if he needs to.

Have discipline and boundaries but positive reinforcement works better than punishment. Something like a playdate after he cleans his room is better than threatening no play date if he doesn't clean it.

If your son's mother is being verbally or emotionally abusive to him, is he being taught to accept this and let her do it? How can he learn to be respectful while also having boundaries- that is his task to help with.

Again, I agree fully with you on this. 

With regards to your comments, my wife, our son's mother is now only verbally/emotionally abusive when she loses her stuff on him, when the combined stress of the new changes at her job combined with the pushback our son is doing - mostly normal tween/teen stuff. 

I am also guilty of spoiling our children a bit as overcompensation for my wife's previous bad behaviors towards them, and allowed them excessive liberties with playdates and so forth much more than I would have otherwise done, at an extreme level to keep our children away from their mother in order to minimize the chances of triggering their mother AND to have them exposed to healthy behaviors of his friends parents.  Now that their mother, my wife, has improved dramatically in the past year, his excessive sense of entitlement needs to be adjusted back a little bit, as he is used to getting out of the home all of the time whenever he wanted, but now, he needs to do age appropriate chores concerning his pets (chickens) and his personal spaces (his room, his laundry, dinner dishes, recycle and mail) prior to being allowed to go on playdates and also to spend some quality time with mom and dad as things have improved dramatically at home that have been lacking until recently.

I am mainly interested in doing comparatively 'minor tweaks' to what has already been established, and is for the most part working quite well.  Even if these tweaks do not happen, I am very much blessed with these positive turn of events in the past year, I can accept these few flaws as I am very much appreciative of the improvement.  Both children are top honor roll, almost straight-A's in school, have good friends, no drugs, no alcohol, well taken care of for things they need, both do volunteer work, and are well rounded individuals.  One loves music, the other loves sports, and their differences make them unique.

Thanks for all of your help and insight, as always it is much appreciated.

Take care.

SD