Need for neutral perspective on conflict

[Versant]

Current fight feels major. Hard to see from inside if it just feels like that. My uPBDw’s parents are involved, though, and that’s new.

I’ve thought they see through uPBDw’s distortions, at least to some extend, and have been calm and friendly to us both. Now during this fight, however, when I returned to their house where we are visiting, her father confronted me outside, looming close over me and telling me I’m a PLEASE READhead and a narcissist who tortures others for kicks.

Later when I had put our toddler to sleep for the night, I tried to talk to the three of them. Two of them are emotionally stable, after all. But the parents called me a liar to my face and we didn’t really get anywhere. Well, anywhere I’d like.

I’ll try and post about the actual matter soon. I need others to tell me if I’m actually somehow out of line and need to change tact before more damage is done - or if I’m just the only one not being sucked along to the distortions.

[Versant]

We are spending a few weeks at my uBPDw's parents. Our toddler has had great time, and us parents have had fewer arguments than normal (less stress due to grandparents helping out, and there being a sympathetic ear nearby for her all the time to complain to).

Now just a couple of days before we were meant to head home, there's this big fight.

The reason behind the fight is that I have a friend from school who lives out of country coming here for a trip with her partner. We dated some months back then, 20+ years ago, and have been friends since. Haven't been in contact a lot because having moved to different countries for university. I told my wife about the visit in a message and that it would be nice to introduce them, and told about the dating because she has asked me to tell such things when meeting new people.

Now, in a stable relationship I'd expect the response to be something like "ok, cool, let's agree on the time to meet them". Not sure if that's realistic since I haven't had much experience in stable and trusting relationships lately. Anyway, in contrast I expected my wife to be uncomfortable with us having dated - it hits the whole insecurity abandonment issue. I thought she would deal with it anyway, because I was upfront about it, it's just a meeting during a visit from another country with her there with me, and for some reason I guess I also thought she would share my view that looking at the whole few months - 20 years balance, the short teenage dating bit is not that relevant.

Instead she got really upset and apparently ranted (or more likely cried) to her parents quite a bit before I got back there, leading to the surprising and wrong kind of intense episode in front of the house I mentioned. Having been accused by our child's grandparents like that, I'm not sure how I'll be able to deal with them going forwards. And having come to the conlusions they have about me, I guess they'll have hard time dealing with me, too. Great.

So I'm trying to wrap my head around things. Did I do something wrong? I guess I was a bit naive not expecting a huge breakdown, but even if I had expected it, would I have acted differently? As far as I see I'm not doing anything wrong in wanting to meet an old friend.

I'm not sure what their version of the story is, since they think I know it and don't spell it out for me, but I have some pieces.

At least my wife connects this with events from when we started dating seven years ago. Back then I took pains to introduce her to the people I spent time with. There were a couple of unfortunate incidents: she was upset and humiliated to later find out I had gone out with one of them before meeting my wife, and another who my wife swore was flirting with me in front of her. Now she's connected this into a pattern where I parade my old flames in front of her to make her feel worthless. I don't know if her parents understand there's 7 years between the incidents, and that the way the people I introduced her to acted can hardly be held against me.

[EyesUp]

Hello Versant,

The situation you describe sounds really tough.  Your uBPDw seems to be recruiting negative advocates, and splitting.  

The negative advocate dynamic often follows a pattern where feelings (often distorted) can justify anything... resentment, entitlement, revenge...  a victim narrative often helps the pwBPD to enlist and gain support or a sense of favorability.

Even in "healthy" relationships, blood is thicker than water - as the saying goes - so it's not unusual for family to readily take a side.

Did your wife's parents make any requests or demands of you?  Did anyone propose any solutions?  Maybe one thing to consider is calling attention to reasonable, rational responses - In which you MUST be above the fray and perceived as giving full consideration to your wife's POV - by your wife and hopefully her parents, too.  Validate the feelings.

e.g., "I can see how these incidents, even though years apart, appear to be a pattern" - In fact, it is a pattern - your W is clearly threatened each time it happens, and you are consistently open to touching base with old friends who happen to be former lovers even though you know exactly where it leads...

My uBPDxw was threatened by my friends, family, colleagues, almost anyone. Any level of engagement was framed as me prioritizing others over my uBPDxw and/or my kids - and therefore selfish, narcissistic, etc.  So your story resonates...

I often struggled to reconcile two ideas:

On one hand, I know many seemingly healthy people who maintain relationships - friendships - with an ex.  Not really a big deal, especially at an arm's length in the age of social media.  In my case, I thought that the ability to remain on good terms with an ex was, perhaps, an indication that I'm a decent guy?

On the other hand, I clearly saw that this was not an option for my uBPDxw... and that no amount of discussion or assurance would change her feelings (although, worth noting, it was ok for HER to stay in touch with HER exes...).

I know it's not much comfort, but it might be helpful to review B. Eddy's "Splitting" - the subtitle positions the book for people going through a divorce, and while that may not be where you're at or what you're hoping to achieve, gaining familiarity with the concept of splitting may be helpful - to understand the dynamic, potential ways to respond, and to protect yourself - and your child.  No matter what happens with your relationship in the short term.

There's a discussion about the book here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=47078.all

In the meantime, do you think it's possible to sit down with your w, possibly together with her parents, and make it clear that you're listening to them and considering how they feel?

Don't JADE...  (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) - instead, listen, acknowledge, and to whatever extent possible - accept and acknowledge their feelings.  Right now, they probably feel like you are prioritizing an old friend/lover over them and everything else.  Is it fair to you?  Probably not.  But nonetheless, it's how they feel.

Is there any way you can keep the meeting with your old friend as brief as possible so that it doesn't interfere with family plans?  There's a big difference between stepping out for :30 minutes for a quick hello vs. taking half the day to spend time with someone you haven't seen in many years.  

There's also a big difference between going solo vs. bringing both groups together (sounds like the latter option is not on the menu or advisable at this point).

Not sure talking any of this through with your W will be helpful - it falls into the JADE pattern. But it might be helpful for you to think through as you consider your next moves.

How much longer will you be at your in-law's?  Do you think there's a chance to get back on track?   Is it possible to revisit a productive 1:1 with your FIL at this point?  ie. ask him for advice?

Hang in there.

[Notwendy]

If someone is insecure, meeting an old romantic partner could feel threatening. On the other hand, unless we married young, most of us have someone we used to date and the possibility we might run into them or even have them in our friend group.

IMHO, I don't think you did anything wrong to want to meet up- as couples/families with what sounds like an old friend/old school day flame from 20 years ago. Your wife may see it differently.

As to your wife's parents- consider family dynamics. Having a person with BPD in the family affects the whole family. Often other family members become enablers. It's hard to know what your wife told her parents.

I think this is a learning experience. For one, you learned that your wife can't handle a casual meet up with anyone you may have had feelings for in the past, no matter how long ago or even if she's present. You have seen a side of her parents you didn't know about. IMHO- go grey rock with them. If you react- it will just play into their dynamics. You stay polite, cordial, and say nothing. Thank them for the visit. You will have to be around them at times- they are your in laws and your children's grandparents. I'd also say nothing about them or what happened to your wife.

This is classic Karpman triangle dynamics. Your wife went to them in victim perspective. They became her rescuers. If you say anything about them to your wife, she will become their rescuers against you. Don't get into this dynamic with either of them.

[ForeverDad]

I was married for a decade before my spouse really flipped out, BPD-speaking.  It had been manageable until then, though slowly worsening over the years.  But then I had the not-so-brilliant idea she would feel better about life if we had a child.  Unfortunately, what should have been a wonderful discovery of a new life drove us apart.  I then experienced firsthand that having a child when divorce looms makes everything vastly more raw and complicated (the custody and parenting issues that didn't exist before).

For years I couldn't explain it, but as I look back I can see her childhood took over her perceptions.  She had always told me her abusive step-father had entered her family's life when she was three years old.  Although she had started drawing away with her affections after is birth and continued becoming more critical of others - and finally me - it became dramatically worse as our child reached 3 years of age.

I really didn't have any prior romances to trigger my ex but she couldn't even tolerate me even having crushes in my youth, even though she would describe turning down guys who wanted to marry her so they could become legal.

That's how it was for me.  Your spouse may have different triggers, traumas and perceptions.  But for most of us there is one clear pattern, it usually worsens over the years.  All of us tried to resolve the deep issues but the sad fact about BPD traits is that it's a disorder of close relationships.  And as we're in the center of it all, we are helpless to fix it.  Picture it as the pwBPD being unable or incapable to truly listen to us because of the perceived baggage of the past relationship(s).

By the way, that's one of the reasons a professional can make progress when we failed.  The therapist does not have a personal or emotional relationship with the patient.

We can moderate our struggle to some extent by learning communication and boundary skills but only the person with BPD traits can truly address it by meaningful long term therapy.  The downside is that's exceedingly hard to accomplish, the Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting are that powerful.

That said, I do agree with the others' comments.  Maybe you can resolve things with her parents, or maybe not.  You've already experienced that a JADE approach, though logical and reasonable under normal circumstances, was perceived as an excuse rather than explanation.

I think this is a learning experience. For one, you learned that your wife can't handle a casual meet up with anyone you may have had feelings for in the past, no matter how long ago or even if she's present. You have seen a side of her parents you didn't know about. IMHO- go grey rock with them. If you react- it will just play into their dynamics. You stay polite, cordial, and say nothing...

This is classic Karpman triangle dynamics. Your wife went to them in victim perspective. They became her rescuers. If you say anything about them to your wife, she will become their rescuers against you. Don't get into this dynamic with either of them.

A lot depends on how disordered your spouse is or becomes.  This is a marathon, not a sprint, so to speak.  My spouse was a little off for years, then a lot off.  My marriage's trigger was that having a child made me a father and so she stopped seeing me as a husband.  The marriage went down in flames once the police became involved and it was no longer a private dispute.

[Notwendy]

A lot depends on how disordered your spouse is or becomes. 

Or what you tolerate. I find that some people tolerate more issues than others.

My own personal experience with this kind of thing is that an email between family members on my mother's side got accidentally sent to me. It was a critical discussion and at first I thought they were talking about my BPD mother but reading through it, they were talking about me.

I have no idea what my mother told them. I was so embarrassed. I wondered how this even made sense to them. I'm employed, raising a family- I didn't have strange behaviors- so how could they think this?

The problem with trying to correct them is that they couldn't believe both of us. Either one of us was lying and since they were firmly in my mother's circle, they'd believe her and whatever I said would play into what they already believed. I'd be the one making up stuff and talking poorly about her.

I went gray rock. But first, I sent the email back so they knew I saw it. Mostly I hardly saw them but if I ran into them at family events, I was calm, cordial. It took a long time for them to figure things out. I didn't expect them to.

I also didn't react to them- I didn't speak to them to do the silent treatment. I was genuinely embarrassed around them thinking they believed that about me so I avoided contact with them out of my own embarrasment.

These are your wife's parents. Her relationship with them is longer than yours is with her. Her being disordered may open up a can of worms for them. It has to be you then. They may not ever come around. Just keep your cool unless they reach out- but for families with these patterns-the way it's often done is for them to reach out and pretend they never said anything and the unspoken message "don't bring this up".

You can "grey rock" with them and focus on the situation with your marriage. That is your main focus.

[CravingPeace]

You didn't do anything wrong is my take. You were honest and upfront. Sometimes it is ok to date and it doesn't work out and you stay friends. It's not like you were sneaking off to meet her on your own.

My uBPD (soon to be ex-wife hopefully much sooner than later) made sure I cut off all ties even with female friends I had never dated. Whereas it was fine for her to have male friends (because in her words nothing was going on).

I have lost a lot of patience with people who tell me who I can and cannot be friends with. Maybe I am jaded from a torturous relationship. Maybe I now just see the light.

If I was you I would tell them (parents and partner) you have been honest and up front. Yes you dated for months a very long time ago and it didn't work out romantically but you stayed friends. You will not be controlled and told who you can and cannot be friends with. You invited your partner, if she doesn't want to come that is ok. You will go alone.

If they don't like it tough. Time for boundaries.

The end.

[CravingPeace]

PS in my experience BPD doesn't come from nowhere. It is genetic AND environmental. I would study the parents carefully if I was you. They raised her and they likely have a hand in her behavior.

In my case uBPDs mother is definitely cluster B. My uBPD was left with her damaging mother when the Dad abandoned. I gave the Dad a pass as I like him and figured he was ok. But now I realize he left for his own selfish needs to have affairs, and left my uBPD  wife to be severely damaged by her mother.

He didn't fight for his kids like I am, to protect them. So he has lost my respect too.

So just bear in mind if the parents are behaving like this, it may just be they want to protect their daughter. But it could just be there is something with them that isn't right.

Observe and look carefully. And remember you can only control you not what other do.

[Notwendy]

So just bear in mind if the parents are behaving like this, it may just be they want to protect their daughter. But it could just be there is something with them that isn't right.

Observe and look carefully. And remember you can only control you not what other do.

Hard to know what is what- they could be both disordered and also following a family dynamic- or one of them. These patterns can be intergenerational. If a child grows up with them, it could be their learned "normal".

With my BPD mother's family, they don't seem to "see" her behaviors. Even after they have seen them, they tend to "forget" too. Recently, one of them lost his temper with her. I asked him about it later and he denied it ever happened.

There's a "poof- all gone" apology that I have seen my mother do- we are supposed to pretend it never happened and all is OK again. I know she does this but I didn't think her non disordered family member did too- but it seems it happened. This may be how their family deals with conflict. If he grew up with this, this is a "normal" for him: have a blow up, pretend it didn't happen, make up. It's possible your wife's  will parents will do that too.

If there's a conflict- I want to talk it out. But when I asked my relative what happened and got a "it didn't happen" I knew then that there's be no talking about it- and the unspoken rule- don't bring it up.

[Versant]

Thanks for all the replies. It means a lot to have support.

I'm disappointed to say that I'm not doing very well in staying calm. The unfairness of it all is constantly simmering just beneath the surface, and I admit that I have a lot of resentment over this issue (controlling who I can be friends with). When I try to speak to her and she starts screaming at me, I am back to JADEing almost immediately quickly, and I'm not being neutral either, I am visibly angry and hurt.

Yesterday I did manage to get a better glimpse at what's going on in her head in an exchange where she screamed at me, stormed off, but when I waited patiently she then re-emerged to scream some more.
It seems it's more about my intentions towards my wife than anything else. In her thinking I am purposefully trying to hurt her. This has come up a lot before around different issues - in the core it's something along the lines of "I must intend the consequences of my actions, so if my actions hurt her I must mean to hurt her". This seems to be what her parents are buying into now, too, and it's  hard to argue against. There are just two real explanations, after all: either I'm hurting her on purpose or then she is being hurt way easier than is normal for a person. So without saying "your daughter is emotionally abnormal" it's just "I mean well" to their "from how she is suffering we can see that you do not".

She refers to how "I have promised her the last time" that no more exes would pop up to disturb her life. I'm not sure what "last time" she is referring to. The incidents seven years ago? Or something else? In any case it feels wrong, given that she's actually never met any of my exes... Just that one person we went on a few dates with.
She often tells me I've promised something. I think it must be a case of emotional facts. When upset with me having (supposedly) done something wrong, she can calm down only after being reassured by me having made a solemn vow not to offend again. So if she has calming down... I must have made that promise. Just a thought, and possibly wrong. And I admit I've promised things I no longer remember in desperation amid chaos.

All this is happening in the context of how she sees me as some sort of Casanova, with past filled with romantic encounters and sordid behaviors. Again with the emotional facts: details of my sexual past are very significant to her, so she misses the fact that of the two of us she is actually the one with a bit more experience, and that objectively speaking, we are both pretty ordinary in this area. If she's so hurt by encountering anything from my romantic past, that past can't be normal, right.

Did your wife's parents make any requests or demands of you?  Did anyone propose any solutions?  Maybe one thing to consider is calling attention to reasonable, rational responses - In which you MUST be above the fray and perceived as giving full consideration to your wife's POV - by your wife and hopefully her parents, too.  Validate the feelings.

There were no requests beyond "start acting like a decent human being towards their daughter", and "spare them from lies and narcissist babble". So mainly it's just people being angry and hurt, not trying to solve anything.

How much longer will you be at your in-law's?  Do you think there's a chance to get back on track?   Is it possible to revisit a productive 1:1 with your FIL at this point?  ie. ask him for advice?

We are leaving tomorrow, and that's a great relief to me. My wife calmed down enough by now that we can do that, only one day behind our original schedule. I am hesistant to try and talk with my FIL after his outbursts, and I think it will take time for me to come to terms with that.

(although, worth noting, it was ok for HER to stay in touch with HER exes...).

Yeah, this is one of the things that makes this so unfair. Somehow me introducing an ex is mean and hurtful, but her having done the same is not? And it's insulting that I haven't cut all contact with exes when we started a family, it's that obvious thing to do... But let's not mention the fact she's been on the phone with her ex herself. Argh.

In the meantime, do you think it's possible to sit down with your w, possibly together with her parents, and make it clear that you're listening to them and considering how they feel?

Don't JADE...  (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) - instead, listen, acknowledge, and to whatever extent possible - accept and acknowledge their feelings.  Right now, they probably feel like you are prioritizing an old friend/lover over them and everything else.  Is it fair to you?  Probably not.  But nonetheless, it's how they feel.

I tried, didn't go well. I wasn't capable putting my feelings aside enough to do it properly, nor were they willing to listen in the first place.

Is there any way you can keep the meeting with your old friend as brief as possible so that it doesn't interfere with family plans?  There's a big difference between stepping out for :30 minutes for a quick hello vs. taking half the day to spend time with someone you haven't seen in many years.  

There's also a big difference between going solo vs. bringing both groups together (sounds like the latter option is not on the menu or advisable at this point).

Actually, I don't think there is a big difference between short or long meeting here, to be honest. I am convinved she won't be any less mad if I just go for a short meeting, because it's not actually about prioritizing something else above family routines, it's more black and white than that, it's about being willing to maintain contact with an ex at all.

I actually started by offering to meet as families, and now she's insulted and hurt that I did: I'm trying to parade my old flame in front of her eyes to make her feel bad, and besides, she's no trophy to be shown off. (If I had not offered to bring them along, she probably would be suspicious and hurt that I didn't...)

I think this is a learning experience. For one, you learned that your wife can't handle a casual meet up with anyone you may have had feelings for in the past, no matter how long ago or even if she's present. You have seen a side of her parents you didn't know about. IMHO- go grey rock with them. If you react- it will just play into their dynamics. You stay polite, cordial, and say nothing. Thank them for the visit. You will have to be around them at times- they are your in laws and your children's grandparents. I'd also say nothing about them or what happened to your wife.

This is classic Karpman triangle dynamics. Your wife went to them in victim perspective. They became her rescuers. If you say anything about them to your wife, she will become their rescuers against you. Don't get into this dynamic with either of them.

I haven't really studied the Karpman triangle. I guess it would be useful to know here. Thanks.

We can moderate our struggle to some extent by learning communication and boundary skills but only the person with BPD traits can truly address it by meaningful long term therapy.  The downside is that's exceedingly hard to accomplish, the Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting are that powerful.

I've just begun to do what I can. And to try and come to terms with the fact that in all likelyhood she will never do what she could (or should try, at least).
I don't think this relationship will be something I can live in without her making the effort. But I don't know for sure yet, since, like I said, I haven't really seen what some firm boundaries can do.
Well, wrecked relations to her FoO probably will not make things any more tolerably for me.

You can "grey rock" with them and focus on the situation with your marriage. That is your main focus.

Yeah, this sounds right.

I have lost a lot of patience with people who tell me who I can and cannot be friends with. Maybe I am jaded from a torturous relationship. Maybe I now just see the light.

If I was you I would tell them (parents and partner) you have been honest and up front. Yes you dated for months a very long time ago and it didn't work out romantically but you stayed friends. You will not be controlled and told who you can and cannot be friends with. You invited your partner, if she doesn't want to come that is ok. You will go alone.

If they don't like it tough. Time for boundaries.

The end.

I am very much leaning towards this, to be honest. She has done a lot to isolate me, and I resent her for it, and myself for allowing that to happen. Mostly it's nothing direct or controlling like now. Usually it's just that it's really hard to agree with her on times to meet people, and the smallest of things are enough to cancel plans, and she usually has something bad to say about anyone I've met, or complains how how I've behaved, and so on. So quite often it feels that trying to invite people over etc. is more trouble than it's worth. She would probably deny this, in principle she's all for meeting people and even complains to me why we get so few visitors etc.

So I've recently come to the realization that one of the big things I urgently need to change about my life is to reconnect with outside world. The timing of my wife trying to tell me I can't meet or stay in contact with someone... I'm already so angry at her about the same thing, and now this? So yeah.

PS in my experience BPD doesn't come from nowhere. It is genetic AND environmental. I would study the parents carefully if I was you. They raised her and they likely have a hand in her behavior.

I've been paying close attention to them for years. As far as I can tell, they really are stable. My wife's grandma is not, though, and her cousin and uncle have trouble maintaining relations - I don't know the details, but it's suggesting.


Right now I hope to make the two day journey back home without major incidence. Not sure how. Hard to imagine the topic not coming up on the way. Should I lie about not planning to go ahead with the meeting? I don't know. Of course it's also possible she already thinks I've promised to cut all ties.

Then there's how to handle the actual meeting.
Skip it to appease my wife? Feels like a horrible decision.
Try to convince my wife (and her parents) they shouldn't worry as I go ahead with the meeting? Probably won't work - but I would feel better for trying.
Just going forwards with the meeting and they can deal with it? Within my rights, and probably would not go any worse than the previous option.

[Notwendy]

It might help to look at the meeting friends through the perspective of behavior principles. The issue at the moment is this friend, but it's others as well.

All living creatures use behaviors to get what they want. People are no different. Would you go to your job if you didn't ever get paid? Probably not. If a behavior "works" to get what is wanted- it will be repeated. If you back down on meeting friends due to your wife's reaction- then her behavior works for her. Yours works for you too.

It's about fears and anxiety. Your wife is fearful of you meeting your friend so she acts up to ease her fears. You are fearful of her response- so you back down to ease that fear.

If you go ahead with the meeting, you won't reinforce your wife's behavior. There could be an extinction burst as she escalates it- but understandable- this behavior works for her. Why wouldn't she keep using it? Until she learns it doesn't work- and for that, you have to hold your ground.

My BPD mother also acts personally "hurt" if people don't give in to her. It's possible she believes this - feels it- due to taking "victim" perspective on the Karpman triangle- or it's a way to get what she wants. I can't tell which is which. We don't have intentions of being hurtful to her.  Being that you aren't intentionally trying to hurt your wife- it does feel bad to have her think or say that.

[Versant]

We made it back home ok. The night before we left my wife woke me up in the middle of the night to ask if I had "dealt" with the situation. A charming exerpt from that talk: "The more you deny it, the more obvious it becomes that you have feelings for this person." I contested some claims she made, but in general I was quite evasive. In any case, apparently it was enough for my wife that I agreed emphatically to a few points she made about committed relationships. Probably she got the wrong idea as the result. I don't feel good about that, but also I really needed us to be able to leave that house and travel home.

As we were leaving, my father in law was keen to shake my hand. Also some other gestures indicated that he maybe regrets some of the things he said to me.

It might help to look at the meeting friends through the perspective of behavior principles. The issue at the moment is this friend, but it's others as well.

All living creatures use behaviors to get what they want. People are no different. Would you go to your job if you didn't ever get paid? Probably not. If a behavior "works" to get what is wanted- it will be repeated. If you back down on meeting friends due to your wife's reaction- then her behavior works for her. Yours works for you too.

It's about fears and anxiety. Your wife is fearful of you meeting your friend so she acts up to ease her fears. You are fearful of her response- so you back down to ease that fear.

If you go ahead with the meeting, you won't reinforce your wife's behavior. There could be an extinction burst as she escalates it- but understandable- this behavior works for her. Why wouldn't she keep using it? Until she learns it doesn't work- and for that, you have to hold your ground.

My BPD mother also acts personally "hurt" if people don't give in to her. It's possible she believes this - feels it- due to taking "victim" perspective on the Karpman triangle- or it's a way to get what she wants. I can't tell which is which. We don't have intentions of being hurtful to her.  Being that you aren't intentionally trying to hurt your wife- it does feel bad to have her think or say that.

This is helpful, thanks.

I haven't stood up to her all that often. Just thinking about going through with the meeting against my wife's wished is *scary*. A big part of me is going "it can't possibly be worth the risk" on a constant loop.

When I try and step outside of the situation, forget it's us and just imagine any given people in a similar situation, it's suddenly the opposite. Withdrawing from social contact because you are afraid of someone close to you? Awful. If the fear is justified, you should aim to give that person as little power over you as possible.

I'll try to sketch some ideas here on how to proceed. This will probably look like a child trying their hand in planning. Any comments are welcome.

When to tell her?
There's only three nights before the day. The day before, when our child is sleeping? More days to try to stop me from going doesn't sound good. Telling her the same day or even just when I'm about to leave would feel provocative.

How to tell her?
In person seems like the only realistic option. I'm wondering if it makes sense to have a written message ready too, though, to follow up with, once the talking breaks down and she doesn't listen anymore.

What to say?
This is tricky and I feel quite unsure about. The core needs to be that it is my decision to meet my friend and I will do it. But if I want the chance for her to listen to me, the other core needs to be about... How her fears are valid, and how there's nothing to worry about? Argh, I don't know yet.

How not to back down?
I feel like I should have different wways this can go figured out in advance. Otherwise I expect to be surprised by something when I'm meant to leave so I can't.
She's been having horrible migraines quite often now, and being angry and scared, and not sleeping well, will increase to likelyhood of an attack a lot. So the odds are I'll be leaving her to tend to our child while suffering from severe migraine.
Leaving to declarations of "don't bother coming back" is to be expected, I guess.
I don't know what else.

[livednlearned]

Why put pressure on yourself?

If your value is to stay connected to people, you can do that. Do you have to do it right now, with this person, when tensions are already high?

She's returning to baseline. Maybe give yourself some time to regroup and decide to reconnect with this old flame later. You could start with activities or friendships nearby, ones you've neglected, and expand outward until you feel like there's an on-ramp to old flames. If you feel that's a hill you want to die on.

More importantly, from out here on the internet, it seems you got a master class in Karpman drama triangle. Wife was victim, you were perpetrator, your in-laws were rescuers. Your wife got a big swig of family drama when they sided with her and she's on a bit of a high. That dynamic is primed to flare up and then some now that the triangle was activated.

You could accomplish a similar aim and hold this one up as the ultimate goal once you've carved out a bigger social circle for yourself.

[PeteWitsend]

...
As we were leaving, my father in law was keen to shake my hand. Also some other gestures indicated that he maybe regrets some of the things he said to me.

...

Did you shake his hand?  I don't think "regret" crossed his mind.  Sounds like they all put you in your place, and feel confident that you won't upset their daughter anymore.

I agree with the others here that her parents sound very much like enablers... and there's a lot of well-established behavior patterns in that family. 

I haven't stood up to her all that often. Just thinking about going through with the meeting against my wife's wished is *scary*. A big part of me is going "it can't possibly be worth the risk" on a constant loop.

When I try and step outside of the situation, forget it's us and just imagine any given people in a similar situation, it's suddenly the opposite. Withdrawing from social contact because you are afraid of someone close to you? Awful. If the fear is justified, you should aim to give that person as little power over you as possible.

I'll try to sketch some ideas here on how to proceed. This will probably look like a child trying their hand in planning. Any comments are welcome.

When to tell her?
There's only three nights before the day. The day before, when our child is sleeping? More days to try to stop me from going doesn't sound good. Telling her the same day or even just when I'm about to leave would feel provocative.

How to tell her?
In person seems like the only realistic option. I'm wondering if it makes sense to have a written message ready too, though, to follow up with, once the talking breaks down and she doesn't listen anymore.

What to say?
This is tricky and I feel quite unsure about. The core needs to be that it is my decision to meet my friend and I will do it. But if I want the chance for her to listen to me, the other core needs to be about... How her fears are valid, and how there's nothing to worry about? Argh, I don't know yet.

How not to back down?
I feel like I should have different wways this can go figured out in advance. Otherwise I expect to be surprised by something when I'm meant to leave so I can't.
She's been having horrible migraines quite often now, and being angry and scared, and not sleeping well, will increase to likelyhood of an attack a lot. So the odds are I'll be leaving her to tend to our child while suffering from severe migraine.
Leaving to declarations of "don't bother coming back" is to be expected, I guess.
I don't know what else.

Just reading through this, it seems to me that you're in pretty deep, i.e. she's dragged you down into the mud with her to such an extent that you're not able to function on your own, and her issues are your issues. 

One question I had, you mentioned that your wife has spoken to her ex(es)?  What sort of contact has she had with them? 

I had issues with this, with BPDxw literally ambushing me over pictures she found of me and an ex... I wasn't hiding them, I had forgotten about them.  They were buried in a shoebox with family photos, and were over 10 years old at that point.  I threw all the pictures out of me with any women (ex-GFs, or even just friends and classmates) to make her happy.  Of course, when I found out her mom kept all her old photo albums, with pictures of her exes, and she wouldn't toss them because "it was different"... ugh. 

The double standard is infuriating. 

[Notwendy]

As we were leaving, my father in law was keen to shake my hand. Also some other gestures indicated that he maybe regrets some of the things he said to me.

If it's like my BPD mother and her family- it's what I call the "dry erase" apology. Act like nothing happened. It did happen, but they pretend it didn't and you are expected to go on and act like it didn;t either.

My BPD mother's relatives seem intact to me. Recently, one of her relatives lost his temper with her. I waited a few days to see if he was OK, once things had calmed down and alluded to it just to see if he wanted to talk. He pretended it didn't happen. It was the oddest thing because I didn't expect that.

Family patterns affect the whole family. For a child, growing up in that situation, it becomes the example of "normal". Conflict resolution is a relationship skill. While my mother has BPD, her other family members don't. If they grew up in a family where people blew up at each other and then later when they calmed down,  it was over- then that is how they did it. Problem is- the conflict isn't really resolved this way.

If this were my BPD mother's family, the handshake gesture is the mutual agreement- "nothing happened, let's shake on this and not ever bring it up again". Her parents may go on as if nothing happened. This would be your cue to not bring it up and go on as if nothing happened too.

[Notwendy]

As to meeting your friend. I think it helps to know you are making a choice- whatever choice that is. You can see your friend and face the reaction- or decide you aren't up to dealing with the reaction right now.

For a boundary to be effective, you would have to be able to hold it up, even if the reaction escalates. One concern is that she may not be feeling well and you'd be leaving the kids with her in that situation. That is a big consideration, making things more complicated. However, not going because it wouldn't be good for the kids is a different decision than avoiding conflict with your wife.

Adults are rarely true victims in the relationship drama Karpman triangle because adults have choices and are responsible for their own actions.  True victims don't have choices and are helpless- and so- children are the potential true victims in a drama situation. They can't choose to leave, they are dependent on their parents to take care of them.

While you may not want to restrict your abilty to see friends because of your wife, you may need to do it for the safety of the children because for you to do this, you need to leave them with your wife. What is the solution? Arrange to do things when the kids are in school, or doing something else like playing at a friend's house or something like that. I know this doesn't seem fair but it takes the kids being cared for out of the issue.

[Versant]

If your value is to stay connected to people, you can do that. Do you have to do it right now, with this person, when tensions are already high?

Staying connected to people is not the only value at play here. There's also loyalty (I'd be letting a friend down), fairness (my wife's unhealthy need for control vs. my friend's quite benign expectation to meet up) and self-determination (I should be free to make my choices without coercive control).

About why would I have to stand up right now rather than wait for a more opportune moment... There's some wisdom in what you say, I think. It's just that this thing makes me so angry. Some of that anger has definitely been building up from suffering from varying levels of abuse for years, but also it seems this is actually important to me. Telling me who I can be friends with, that's like I'm not an actual person to her anymore.

Did you shake his hand?  I don't think "regret" crossed his mind.  Sounds like they all put you in your place, and feel confident that you won't upset their daughter anymore.

I did. I am aiming to be cordial but emotionally detached from now on with them.

One question I had, you mentioned that your wife has spoken to her ex(es)?  What sort of contact has she had with them? 

She's on speaking terms with one ex. Their contact is very infrequent - I think it's like a couple of messages and a couple of phone calls over the last few years, plus one short meeting where I was present too. Even that minimal contact turns her arguments into garbage, though, when she claims it's insulting to introduce a current partner to an ex, and claims that it's obvious to any caring person that contact with exes must be severed when a relationship gets serious.

She did shred my old photos with scissors and insisted on deletion of emails, social media messages etc. from, well, any women actually. Later I learnt there's a bunch of letters from her ex sitting in a box in a drawer in our living room. So yeah, it's different. (And it really is, since she is constantly hurt by normal things, whereas I am not.)

For a boundary to be effective, you would have to be able to hold it up, even if the reaction escalates. One concern is that she may not be feeling well and you'd be leaving the kids with her in that situation. That is a big consideration, making things more complicated. However, not going because it wouldn't be good for the kids is a different decision than avoiding conflict with your wife.
--
While you may not want to restrict your abilty to see friends because of your wife, you may need to do it for the safety of the children because for you to do this, you need to leave them with your wife. What is the solution? Arrange to do things when the kids are in school, or doing something else like playing at a friend's house or something like that. I know this doesn't seem fair but it takes the kids being cared for out of the issue.

Yeah, this is the big question. Would I endanger my child if I were to force the issue? If it weren't for this question, my mind would already be made up. I'm angry enough that I'd be willing to face any consequence to my marriage or the relationship with the in laws - if those relationships require me to be dominated, then those relationships can go for all I care. But the worst scenario would be to stir up drama by insisting on going, and then being forced to skip going anyway because my wife gets too unstable to be left with the child. What's best for the child? If there was a clear answer, there would also be a clear path forwards for me.

[once removed]

the problem is really bigger than "should you go vs should you not go".

About why would I have to stand up right now rather than wait for a more opportune moment... There's some wisdom in what you say, I think. It's just that this thing makes me so angry. Some of that anger has definitely been building up from suffering from varying levels of abuse for years, but also it seems this is actually important to me. Telling me who I can be friends with, that's like I'm not an actual person to her anymore.

you cant "stand up to" a spouse (read: battle for control) and repair your relationship at the same time.

you are, in part, planning to do this out of anger, spite, and a sense of fairness. these things are destructive to a marriage.

it is that battle for control between the two of you, far more than this old friend, that threatens your marriage.

in the same way, the choice you ultimately make is less consequential than looking at the big picture: "how did we get here".

i understand a lot has led up to, and gone into this. you feel that the relationship has been very imbalanced for a long time. you have a lot of understandable hurt, resentment, and anger. you want whats fair. and certainly, the status quo isnt working.

just know that theres a clear difference between making hard but necessary choices to move the trajectory of the relationship into healthier territory, and posturing for an ever entrenching battle of the wills that rips at the fabric of your marriage.

it will help to have a read of this, and tell us what stage you feel your relationship is in: https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

the karpman drama triangle is not limited to you, your spouse, and her parents. it includes your posts here, and us. triangulation isnt an inherently bad word; when conflict overwhelms a relationship, one or both parties seek it, and it can be stabilizing (centering) or destabilizing (fanning the flames of victimhood). 

ask any adult "is it okay and to what extent for a married person to see an ex" and opinions will vary; the same adult will probably give you different answers depending on how you ask and the specifics.

the two people that matter most, and are not on the same page, are you and your wife. the question is not who is right or wrong. its what, if anything can be done, to do about it.

here is a good overview when it comes to our boundaries, our values, and how they work in concert with someone we have an interpersonal relationship with: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

does it help explain the conflict? offer any solutions?

[Versant]

you cant "stand up to" a spouse (read: battle for control) and repair your relationship at the same time.

you are, in part, planning to do this out of anger, spite, and a sense of fairness. these things are destructive to a marriage.

it is that battle for control between the two of you, far more than this old friend, that threatens your marriage.

To an extend I get what you are saying. Reacting out of hurt feelings hurts the relationship when the real way forwards is to try and heal the relationship.

What I am not sure I get is the idea of battle for control, and what it means with us here. It sounds to me like a description of two people trying to force their will on the other. It seems clear that participating in such is destructive and should be avoided.

I don't think I am trying to get power over my spouse, however. I feel no need to try to make her decisions for her or to have the final say in matters in our family. What I want is not to have her will imposed on me. What then if the battle for control is a battle over who gets to make my decisions for me, me or someone else?

it will help to have a read of this, and tell us what stage you feel your relationship is in: https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Stage four. No trust between us. She doesn't think I mean her well, and has confessed to treating me instrumentally, not caring much about my well-being beyond it's impact on her life. I rarely share things of importance with her since she invariably turns them against me later when she's upset.

[PeteWitsend]

I think you need to take a step back and assess what you want and how you want to move forward here.

I get the sense - and let me know if I'm wrong here - that you went about the whole friend visit in an indirect way, and possibly passive aggressive way.  You knew it would produce this sort of reaction from your wife, and yet you did it and are now unhappy about it.

Do not take this as me defending your wife or her actions here... she's in the wrong every way... from taking a hypocritical and unfair stance regarding contact with exes - okay for her but not for you - her reaction to you, and her triangulating with her parents to fight you on this. 

But you basically lowered yourself to her level in terms of how you went about it.  And it didn't go your way, because she's a pro at this sort of thing, and you're not.  you know what they say about mud wrestling with pigs, right?

So stepping back, I think your takeaway needs to be to learn to pick your battles... decide what you really want and communicate it effectively.

Like here - if it REALLY was that important for you to see your friend/ex, you should've addressed that with your wife, anticipating her anxiety and lack of trust and explaining your ex was with someone else and you wanted your wife to come.

And if she did her BPD thing and made it impossible, then put your foot down and say you view any of her further contact with her exes as a breach of trust and a dealbreaker for the relationship.

and if she looped in her dad to beat up on you verbally like that, you should've told him in no uncertain terms never to talk to you like that and that he was not welcome in your house until he apologized to you and you were not going to see them ever if it happened again.

[PeteWitsend]

You might just chalk this all up to a learning experience and help you plan out a way forward for something that matters in your relationship.

Also, to add, I had problems confronting people that treated me unfairly before too.  I found that people could blow up at me unexpectedly and "overwhelm" my defenses, leading me to quietly back down. 

I wouldn't forget it though... I carry grudges and have a long fuse.  it would lead to explosive fights later. 

What I eventually learned is that you cannot let things go... you have to address them in the moment.  or if not right away because sometimes letting things cool off for a bit is wis, address them as soon as possible after.  And communicate ALL your thoughts and concerns.  Don't let things slip by because the conversation veered off topic, only to become problems later.

I probably would never have married BPDxw, or stayed in the marriage as long as I did, had I been more assertive and on top of this stuff.  And of course, I wouldn't have my kid, so it makes hindsight complicated, but maybe I would've found someone better and had kids with them? 

Point being, happy accidents are no reason to keep making the bad choices or bad behavior that led to them.  I look at my daughter as a good thing that came from some very bad decisions, and my takeaway is not that I should keep making bad decisions, but that "cloud" had a silver lining, and hopefully I'll avoid clouds in the future because silver linings are rare

[Skip]

ask any adult "is it okay and to what extent for a married person to see an ex" and opinions will vary; the same adult will probably give you different answers depending on how you ask and the specifics.

the two people that matter most, and are not on the same page, are you and your wife. the question is not who is right or wrong. its what, if anything can be done, to do about it.

here is a good overview when it comes to our boundaries, our values, and how they work in concert with someone we have an interpersonal relationship with: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

does it help explain the conflict? offer any solutions?

As challenging as this (Once Removed comments) may feel, he begs the hard question, are you asking the right question?

Yes, you have a special needs partner  , and yes, MIL was unintentionally inflaming the situation   (read the Karpman Triangle) , and yes, yes, the patriarch FIL threw gas on this fire   rather than bringing balance to the situation. And yes, you (jr. patriarch) let your emotions flair .  

This is a common (and sometimes destructive) family drama that plays out all the time. And it will play out destructively again in your family unless 1 or 2 of the family members recognize it for what it is an work to make it constructive the next time it flairs up.



Does this look right?

Wife= I'm being victimized by the persecutor (I'm not causing this drama)
Mom= There, there dear. Mom is here for you (I'm doing good to be there for my baby and protect you from the persecutor)
You= I'm not the persecutor (I deserve what I'm doing, I'm in the right).

And it then polarizes even more...

Dad= I'm the super rescuer (Wife has validated the daughter is a victim and I must support my family and take action as I'm a good dad.)

And more...
You= Now I'm being victimized by the Dad (and the mom, and my wife) I'm not responsible for this mess. I'm blameless.

And more...
BPDFamily = There, there dear Versant. We are here for you. You are in the right (We're doing good to be there for our member and protect him from the persecutor)

And this snowball can rollup for years.

This is why you want to understand Karpman. You are going to relive this drama over and over - the subject will change - but the drama dynamics will continue unless something changes.

  https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

So what is an alternate question you could ask? Maybe, what can I do if anything the change the dynamics of the drama triangle in my family? How can I contribute to making it a constructive triangle?

I suspect her father is key. The universal currency in this dynamic is the welfare of the grandchild.

Vanheneminen on keskittymistä olennaiseen.

Interested in discussing how to do this?

[Versant]

Sorry it's taken a while - haven't had the energy, time or privacy to write. Thanks for the replies. The situation and spike in conflict that made me start this topic is long past, but there are lessons for me to learn.

I get the sense - and let me know if I'm wrong here - that you went about the whole friend visit in an indirect way, and possibly passive aggressive way.  You knew it would produce this sort of reaction from your wife, and yet you did it and are now unhappy about it.

I honestly don't think this is how it happened. I think I was pretty direct (but admittedly I have issues with being passive aggressive and not realizing until someone draws my attention to it). It seems to me my mistake was approaching her as I would have a stable and caring spouse. In hindsight it's amazing I didn't anticipate the intensity of her reaction. I should have, and like you say, anticipating that I should have figured out in advance if I would be prepared to put my foot down.

I probably would never have married BPDxw, or stayed in the marriage as long as I did, had I been more assertive and on top of this stuff.  And of course, I wouldn't have my kid, so it makes hindsight complicated, but maybe I would've found someone better and had kids with them? 

Point being, happy accidents are no reason to keep making the bad choices or bad behavior that led to them.  I look at my daughter as a good thing that came from some very bad decisions, and my takeaway is not that I should keep making bad decisions, but that "cloud" had a silver lining, and hopefully I'll avoid clouds in the future because silver linings are rare

Thanks, this whole post makes a lot of sense to me.

Does this look right?

Yeah, it does. Your portrayal of the situation through the Karpman triangle is uncomfortable, and spot on.

I suspect her father is key. The universal currency in this dynamic is the welfare of the grandchild.

This sounds right. Even after the in-laws basically telling me they think I'm human garbage I still have total confidence in their ability to prioritize our child's needs.

Interested in discussing how to do this?

I am.

I haven't put too much effort into understanding the triangle, since I've felt we manage to keep the whole excessive drama and hurt going between just the two of us. I guess this is a mistake.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I honestly don't think this is how it happened. I think I was pretty direct (but admittedly I have issues with being passive aggressive and not realizing until someone draws my attention to it). It seems to me my mistake was approaching her as I would have a stable and caring spouse. In hindsight it's amazing I didn't anticipate the intensity of her reaction. I should have, and like you say, anticipating that I should have figured out in advance if I would be prepared to put my foot down.

...

Well, in your first post you mentioned that she's gotten upset over you meeting an ex with her before.  So I got the sense that on some level, you knew you were tossing a pretty big rock (metaphorically speaking) into a pond, and acting surprised by the results.  Seems a little passive aggressive to me.

It absolutely sucks, by the way, that your wife acts like this, and behaves this way, but that's who she is... disordered and manipulative.  Knowing that, you need to figure out how you are going to move forward & manage your needs and obligations.

I don't know how to address drama triangles.  I guess you just have to remember the dynamic now, and be cautious when you know her parents are going to be there since that increases the chance of a blowup drawing them in.