I got out

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I stuck to the plan, and I got out! Thursday went almost completely according to plan. H went to work on time completely unsuspecting anything other than a normal day. I took D4 to preschool, and then as soon as I got home, I put my 2 cats into carriers and then texted my friends to let them know the coast was clear.

I had ordered professional movers and packers to do a privacy move, but I ended up not needing the packing services because 7 friends ended up showing up to help me pack! I told a couple of people what was going on, and then they told other people who decided to come help too (for example, a friend from work brought her brother and husband to help). So the movers took the charges for the packing service off and let my friends do that part, and they just moved the heavy stuff on and off the truck. The whole process took about two and a half hours that morning. That gave me enough time to go back to the house for a few things that I missed (and bring back a few things of H's that the team accidentally took), and a say a few final goodbyes to the house while I had a bit more privacy.

I picked up D4 that afternoon at around the usual time, and then told her in the car that we aren't going to our house today, and instead we're going to an apartment. She didn't know what an apartment was, so I told her it's kind of like a hotel (which she has been in before). She spent the whole rest of the day happy and excited about being in this really amazing hotel that has a kitchen and a living room and her own bedroom and a lot of her toys AND her cats! ("I've never been in a hotel that let you take your cats before!") Some of my friends who helped me move stayed the rest of the day to keep D4 entertained while other people helped unpack a few things (and kept her distracted while I sometimes had to go cry in the bathroom or something).

Then at around 5 pm it was around the time when H would be getting off work. He usually calls to chat on his drive home. When the call came on my phone, I didn't answer, and instead wrote a text message to let him know that I had moved out, I took D4 and the two cats with me, we're at an apartment in town, and I'm going to turn off my phone now for the rest of the night.

Of course the next morning when I turned my phone back on, I got the bombardment of texts and voicemails of him begging me to bring D4 back. My friends have told me under no circumstances am I to let him know my address yet or talk to him on the phone yet. But he texts me every day begging me to bring D4 back, saying he misses her and loves her so much, and begging me not to divorce him and to reconsider.

D4 is taking this well so far, but she thinks we're on vacation at a really fancy hotel. I haven't really explained to her yet that Mama is going to be living here from now on. H has asked me in a few texts how D4 is doing, and I just tell him she's fine and thinks she's on vacation. He asked me what I've been telling her when she asks where Dada is and if she misses him, and I don't answer, because strangely enough, D4 hasn't done that. I had no idea how she'd react, so I'm relieved that so far she's having fun, but I'm actually kind of surprised that she hasn't mentioned Dada hardly at all. I guess since I've been on a few trips before with D4 but without H (like to visit my mom), she's used to going on trips without Dada. Though usually she talks to him on the phone while we're gone, and I haven't let him talk to her on the phone yet. So it's going on three days now that she hasn't seen or heard from Dada at all and she hasn't said anything to me about it. The only thing is yesterday morning she asked how many days we're going to be on vacation before we go back home, and I told her I'm not sure yet.

I guess that's what I need to figure out next. Yesterday morning after D4 asked how long we'll be gone before we go back home, I felt guilty and texted H telling him he can have D4 next weekend and then give her back Sunday evening, but as soon as my best friend found out about that, she freaked out and told me to absolutely NOT do anything like that until I have a formal custody order from the court in place. She's afraid H won't give D4 back. But how long can I keep D4 away from him? How long until I at least let D4 talk to her Dad on the phone?

I've got a session with my therapist scheduled for Tuesday, and I sent a message to my lawyer over the weekend letting her know what happened and that I need to talk to her to discuss next steps. I guess I'll see what they have to say about when to let H see or hear from D4 again.

[Gerda]

I stuck to the plan, and I got out! Thursday went almost completely according to plan. H went to work on time completely unsuspecting anything other than a normal day. I took D4 to preschool, and then as soon as I got home, I put my 2 cats into carriers and then texted my friends to let them know the coast was clear.

I had ordered professional movers and packers to do a privacy move, but I ended up not needing the packing services because 7 friends ended up showing up to help me pack! I told a couple of people what was going on, and then they told other people who decided to come help too (for example, a friend from work brought her brother and husband to help). So the movers took the charges for the packing service off and let my friends do that part, and they just moved the heavy stuff on and off the truck. The whole process took about two and a half hours that morning. That gave me enough time to go back to the house for a few things that I missed (and bring back a few things of H's that the team accidentally took), and a say a few final goodbyes to the house while I had a bit more privacy.

I picked up D4 that afternoon at around the usual time, and then told her in the car that we aren't going to our house today, and instead we're going to an apartment. She didn't know what an apartment was, so I told her it's kind of like a hotel (which she has been in before). She spent the whole rest of the day happy and excited about being in this really amazing hotel that has a kitchen and a living room and her own bedroom and a lot of her toys AND her cats! ("I've never been in a hotel that let you take your cats before!") Some of my friends who helped me move stayed the rest of the day to keep D4 entertained while other people helped unpack a few things (and kept her distracted while I sometimes had to go cry in the bathroom or something).

Then at around 5 pm it was around the time when H would be getting off work. He usually calls to chat on his drive home. When the call came on my phone, I didn't answer, and instead wrote a text message to let him know that I had moved out, I took D4 and the two cats with me, we're at an apartment in town, and I'm going to turn off my phone now for the rest of the night.

Of course the next morning when I turned my phone back on, I got the bombardment of texts and voicemails of him begging me to bring D4 back. My friends have told me under no circumstances am I to let him know my address yet or talk to him on the phone yet. But he texts me every day begging me to bring D4 back, saying he misses her and loves her so much, and begging me not to divorce him and to reconsider.

D4 is taking this well so far, but she thinks we're on vacation at a really fancy hotel. I haven't really explained to her yet that Mama is going to be living here from now on. H has asked me in a few texts how D4 is doing, and I just tell him she's fine and thinks she's on vacation. He asked me what I've been telling her when she asks where Dada is and if she misses him, and I don't answer, because strangely enough, D4 hasn't done that. I had no idea how she'd react, so I'm relieved that so far she's having fun, but I'm actually kind of surprised that she hasn't mentioned Dada hardly at all. I guess since I've been on a few trips before with D4 but without H (like to visit my mom), she's used to going on trips without Dada. Though usually she talks to him on the phone while we're gone, and I haven't let him talk to her on the phone yet. So it's going on three days now that she hasn't seen or heard from Dada at all and she hasn't said anything to me about it. The only thing is yesterday morning she asked how many days we're going to be on vacation before we go back home, and I told her I'm not sure yet.

I guess that's what I need to figure out next. Yesterday morning after D4 asked how long we'll be gone before we go back home, I felt guilty and texted H telling him he can have D4 next weekend and then give her back Sunday evening, but as soon as my best friend found out about that, she freaked out and told me to absolutely NOT do anything like that until I have a formal custody order from the court in place. She's afraid H won't give D4 back. But how long can I keep D4 away from him? How long until I at least let D4 talk to her Dad on the phone?

I've got a session with my therapist scheduled for Tuesday, and I sent a message to my lawyer over the weekend letting her know what happened and that I need to talk to her to discuss next steps. I guess I'll see what they have to say about when to let H see or hear from D4 again.

[jaded7]

I stuck to the plan, and I got out! Thursday went almost completely according to plan. H went to work on time completely unsuspecting anything other than a normal day. I took D4 to preschool, and then as soon as I got home, I put my 2 cats into carriers and then texted my friends to let them know the coast was clear.

I had ordered professional movers and packers to do a privacy move, but I ended up not needing the packing services because 7 friends ended up showing up to help me pack! I told a couple of people what was going on, and then they told other people who decided to come help too (for example, a friend from work brought her brother and husband to help). So the movers took the charges for the packing service off and let my friends do that part, and they just moved the heavy stuff on and off the truck. The whole process took about two and a half hours that morning. That gave me enough time to go back to the house for a few things that I missed (and bring back a few things of H's that the team accidentally took), and a say a few final goodbyes to the house while I had a bit more privacy.

I picked up D4 that afternoon at around the usual time, and then told her in the car that we aren't going to our house today, and instead we're going to an apartment. She didn't know what an apartment was, so I told her it's kind of like a hotel (which she has been in before). She spent the whole rest of the day happy and excited about being in this really amazing hotel that has a kitchen and a living room and her own bedroom and a lot of her toys AND her cats! ("I've never been in a hotel that let you take your cats before!") Some of my friends who helped me move stayed the rest of the day to keep D4 entertained while other people helped unpack a few things (and kept her distracted while I sometimes had to go cry in the bathroom or something).

Then at around 5 pm it was around the time when H would be getting off work. He usually calls to chat on his drive home. When the call came on my phone, I didn't answer, and instead wrote a text message to let him know that I had moved out, I took D4 and the two cats with me, we're at an apartment in town, and I'm going to turn off my phone now for the rest of the night.

Of course the next morning when I turned my phone back on, I got the bombardment of texts and voicemails of him begging me to bring D4 back. My friends have told me under no circumstances am I to let him know my address yet or talk to him on the phone yet. But he texts me every day begging me to bring D4 back, saying he misses her and loves her so much, and begging me not to divorce him and to reconsider.

D4 is taking this well so far, but she thinks we're on vacation at a really fancy hotel. I haven't really explained to her yet that Mama is going to be living here from now on. H has asked me in a few texts how D4 is doing, and I just tell him she's fine and thinks she's on vacation. He asked me what I've been telling her when she asks where Dada is and if she misses him, and I don't answer, because strangely enough, D4 hasn't done that. I had no idea how she'd react, so I'm relieved that so far she's having fun, but I'm actually kind of surprised that she hasn't mentioned Dada hardly at all. I guess since I've been on a few trips before with D4 but without H (like to visit my mom), she's used to going on trips without Dada. Though usually she talks to him on the phone while we're gone, and I haven't let him talk to her on the phone yet. So it's going on three days now that she hasn't seen or heard from Dada at all and she hasn't said anything to me about it. The only thing is yesterday morning she asked how many days we're going to be on vacation before we go back home, and I told her I'm not sure yet.

I guess that's what I need to figure out next. Yesterday morning after D4 asked how long we'll be gone before we go back home, I felt guilty and texted H telling him he can have D4 next weekend and then give her back Sunday evening, but as soon as my best friend found out about that, she freaked out and told me to absolutely NOT do anything like that until I have a formal custody order from the court in place. She's afraid H won't give D4 back. But how long can I keep D4 away from him? How long until I at least let D4 talk to her Dad on the phone?

I've got a session with my therapist scheduled for Tuesday, and I sent a message to my lawyer over the weekend letting her know what happened and that I need to talk to her to discuss next steps. I guess I'll see what they have to say about when to let H see or hear from D4 again.

You have so many friends Gerda! What a blessing. I'm proud of you for taking this step, taking control of your environment and safety.

I know next to nothing about child custody arrangements and such, but do talk to your lawyer about setting precedents in the absence of a formal agreement.

[EyesUp]

Hi Gerda,

I've been following your story and it's good to know that you're in a better place.

I agree with your friend re: establishing a schedule with your H - keep in mind that for many courts, "possession is 9/10 of the law" - and "status quo prevails" - so keep your kiddo with you until there is a formal order of some type in place. 

Allowing H to take D could lead to complications, especially if he doesn't play fair.  Perhaps you can use this to your advantage to get H to sign an agreement sooner rather than later.  If not, you may need to file for an emergency order.

I know it might be heartbreaking, but allowing H to take D is essentially stating to the court:  "I think he's safe" - which could undermine the need to present a different story later - for you or D.  Until you necessary orders or agreements are in place, make sure every action you take establishes the plan you hope to continue...

Take care!

[Tangled mangled]

Gerda,
That’s really great news!

Really glad that things went as smoothly as planned and that you had lots of support.

The rest with custody can be sorted through your lawyers.
Your daughter will be alright, perhaps find out how she would like to live in her new home with just you- you will be surprised how much she already understands.

[ForeverDad]

H knows where daycare is, right?  A valid question is, what if he shows up there and tells them he's taking her home with him?  Unless there is some sort of court order or signed agreement in place, daycare could be a legal limbo since either parent can usually pick up a child unless there's a legal document stating otherwise.  Just be aware of that potential risk.

You are NOT blocking him if all you are doing is waiting until court can step in and decide what a temp order should be.

If you haven't cancelled it yet, cancel or withdraw that request to dismiss the divorce.

Of course the next morning when I turned my phone back on, I got the bombardment of texts and voicemails of him begging me to bring D4 back. My friends have told me under no circumstances am I to let him know my address yet or talk to him on the phone yet. But he texts me every day begging me to bring D4 back, saying he misses her and loves her so much, and begging me not to divorce him and to reconsider.

We predicted this.  Don't let him pressure you into a tizzy, let it roll off you like water off a duck's back.  Ducks are quite content when it rains, aren't they?

He asked me what I've been telling her when she asks where Dada is and if she misses him, and I don't answer, because strangely enough, D4 hasn't done that. I had no idea how she'd react, so I'm relieved that so far she's having fun, but I'm actually kind of surprised that she hasn't mentioned Dada hardly at all.

Though usually she talks to him on the phone while we're gone, and I haven't let him talk to her on the phone yet. So it's going on three days now that she hasn't seen or heard from Dada at all and she hasn't said anything to me about it. The only thing is yesterday morning she asked how many days we're going to be on vacation before we go back home, and I told her I'm not sure yet.

When I first separated, my son was with me for the first several days.  I was the typical fair parent here, like you and so many others, I thought I had to be "fair" and mention her.  We were making cookies.  To my utter surprise, he redirected me back to mixing the batter.  He had no inclination to discuss her.  He did not miss her, no one bit.  In fact when the court did order her to have him a few days later, he begged me not to leave him with her.  S3 was so smart, life was inconsistent and too often troubling when she was around.  Your D4 is smart too.  So don't fret about whether you're fair enough, leave those emotional judgment calls to the lawyer.

Same for phone calls.  Follow your lawyer's direction.  Calls do not have to be every day, nor should they be overlong.  Young children lose attention after a few minutes.  If she becomes distressed or he tries to manipulate her, politely but firmly end the call.

But how long can I keep D4 away from him? How long until I at least let D4 talk to her Dad on the phone? ... I guess I'll see what they have to say about when to let H see or hear from D4 again.

Follow your lawyer's or therapist's advice.  (I expect your lawyer will allow brief phone or video contact well before in-person contact.)  Right now the bigger risk is that you can somehow guilt yourself - or let him guilt you - into gifting him some advantage over you and your parenting.  Now you are aware that your gullibility to overthink yourself is a known risk.  Be firm, now is not a time to reveal your new residence.  Also, probably not good to use daycare if at all possible or share your address with them since it might somehow get in his hands before other matters are settled.

[Gerda]

D's preschool is closed for a summer vacation for the next two weeks, and I'm a college professor and am on summer vacation for the next three weeks. That should give me some time to get things settled before getting back into the work/school routine.

But H is still texting me multiple times per day about how horrible it is that I've hid his daughter away and won't let him talk to her. Now he's demanding to know if I'm going to try to get sole custody of her and not allow him to ever see her again.

[ForeverDad]

Now he's demanding to know if I'm going to try to get sole custody of her and not allow him to ever see her again.

That is such a loaded question, don't touch it with a ten foot pole, so to speak.  There's no way to answer that adequately that will please him without you Gifting Away some of your needed Parenting Decisions.

There will be many questions he will raise in upcoming days, coming from all sorts of angles, that can't be dealt with this soon.

Take some breaths, it will all work out, likely you'll speak with your lawyer or other resources tomorrow.  None of his questions can be answered right now anyway.  Now is just the time to get used to the new normal.  Relax your Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn, Flag, Faint impulses.  Just breathe and enjoy your time with your daughter.  There will be time to deal with his questions over the days to come.

Some solutions will resolve sooner than others.  I suspect your lawyer may allow phone or video chats as one of the earlier decisions, but wait for the legal advice.  Rome wasn't built in a day, if you'll recall.

Your ex wants answers Now.  Well, that's not going to happen and the sooner he softens the tone of communications, the sooner things will find a way of being worked out.  If need be, can one of your trusted friends monitor his VMs, texts and emails for you so you aren't directly exposed to them all day long?  Another thought, would your lawyer agree that emotions are on edge now as happens with a sudden change in the marital relationship and better to have lawyers talk to lawyers or some other professional go-between?

Many here can sound off on things to avoid when a dysfunctional relationship is ending.  My contribution is to keep your emotional distance.  One of his aims will be to convince you to weaken your resolve and newfound boundary, lure you back, claiming this time he won't {whatever}.  Don't fall for it.  Don't get sucked back into the past failed repeating cycles.  You've started a new path, the old path was too horrendous for you to wimp out and retreat back too.  Give your new path time to proceed and find success.

[ForeverDad]

What if he does locate your apartment?  Do you politely let him in?  (I hope you told yourself No.)  Your apartment is now Your Safe Place.  Don't even open the door.  It's not rude, it's wise.  Through the door ask him to leave.  Otherwise call for help, you know, official help.  Police know how to defuse a potential incident, they separate the parties.

Similarly if he sees you at a supermarket or wherever.  Now that you're separated, you have a clear right to ask him to leave the area.  Or even decline to talk to him at all.

I recall my divorce lawyer telling me his first task when hired was to SIT on his client.  Yes, he meant it metaphorically but his point was that he did not want his client to talk or promise anything or his task would be more difficult to fix - and his billing would be more expensive.

So in these early days bounce any ideas or whatever against your lawyer or at least a trusted friend.  Remember the one who stopped you from promising to share your D4 without any agreement in place?  Trusted friends like that.  Things are now in a legal stage.  Bargaining in the moment will likely cause more complications.  Let the legal process play out.  We've been in your shoes, we know.

[PeteWitsend]

...

But H is still texting me multiple times per day about how horrible it is that I've hid his daughter away and won't let him talk to her. Now he's demanding to know if I'm going to try to get sole custody of her and not allow him to ever see her again.

Best advice I received during this period of time in my life was from my D's therapist, and that was "ignore the editorial" part of any of their communications.  I.e. read through their messages, see if there's anything that needs a response, and if not, just ignore them.

This is similar advice Bill Eddy and other's give when dealing with high-conflict people. 

So you get an email that says something like "What time are you picking X up?  I'm tired of you always being late and ignoring X's needs and everyone else's as well.  You're only thinking about yourself as usual." 

You might want to respond to that entire message and refute much of it.  After all it's not true!  But when you "ignore the editorial" you'll see there's only one part that deserves a response - the time you'll be there.  The rest is like an invitation to fight.  Ignore it.  You're past that part of the relationship now.  The best response is something like "Thanks for your message.  I'll be there at 5, as per our agreement."
That's it.  No need to argue.

Rest assured if - and its unlikely -  but IF all these messages are ever brought out in court, you'll look much better if your messages convey calm, non-confrontational, non-argumentative content, and there's don't.  Everyone will figure out who's the one stirring the pot, and who's trying to do what's best for their child(ren). 

And at this point in time, you probably should run things by your attorney, to the extent they involve negotiating anything with your soon-to-be-ex, including possession time with your daughter.  It sounds like your emotions are still pretty raw, and you're vulnerable; don't let him get to you or guilt you into doing anything for him.  He would absolutely not extend the same courtesy back to you, if the situation was reversed. 

[PeteWitsend]

And for heaven's sake, don't tell him anything about your plans or the nature of any of your discussions with your attorney.  That's all privileged, and anything you say about the situation, no matter how innocent, will be used against you in court. 

After I separated, BPDxw kept sending me messages begging me to tell her if I had someone else.  She would say things like "I just need to know, I won't use it against you I promise" and insist she was brokenhearted and this would help her heal.  BS!

I didn't have anyone, and to me this was hilarious because as usual she was ignoring her responsibility for the breakup, and how she had behaved to me just the week before, but I also I wasn't born yesterday.  I didn't respond at all.  Nor would I tell her what my plans were in litigation or what I cared about.  Why? 

Once you're in court, you're adversaries, and nothing good can come of looking out for the other person's interests.  They won't look out for yours, and there's a judge there to make sure everyone's rights are respected. 

[ParentingThruIt]

Sounds like you have or plan to get an atty but you can ask the court to unilaterally give you sole custody for a temporary period. This can also include a stay-away order and/or prohibition for him to pick your daughter up from day care etc. You would need whatever documentation you have around his behavior.

Congratulations, you did it and you have an awesome community behind you.

[livednlearned]

Has your lawyer given you any counsel yet? I know it's recent and maybe you're waiting to get more clear direction -- mine told me to make sure I got (then) S9 on the phone as soon as possible to talk to his dad. And to say "Let's take a cooling down break. I'm taking counsel from my attorney. If you have questions about S9 and visitation please direct those questions to my L."

If you can, I would also get D4 into play therapy. It's really helpful to have a professional involved so you give her the best footing for moving forward.

[Gerda]

My attorney won't be able to talk with me until tomorrow, but in an online message she advised me to not let H have D4 until something official is in place.

My therapist advised me to allow H to do video calls with D4 on a daily basis until that happens, so last night we did that for the first time (H had to download the app and figure out how to get all that to work). H behaved himself for the most part (I told him ground rules are to not discuss divorce or any other grown-up things with D4), but he did say some things about all the fun stuff they are going to do together once she gets to come visit him again. My therapist suspects he's going to become a "Disneyland Dad," at least at first, and spoil her like crazy on the weekends he has her.

I did have a little talk with D4 before the call to finally explain to her that this isn't a temporary vacation we're on. It was right after we had a bit of fun at the apartment swimming pool. I went ahead and told her I'm going to be living here from now on. Her first reaction was, "I don't want you to go away!" so I had to explain to her that she will live here with me too, and Dada is going to live at the house from now on, and sometimes she will go live with him, and sometimes she will live with me.

She seemed OK with that, but she did ask why. I told her it was because Mama and Dada kept fighting. She said, "but most of the time you're not fighting." I told her yes, but the fighting is scary, and she said "it's not scary to me." I told her it was scary to me, and she seemed to accept that. Though, I was a little surprised by her saying that. It seemed to echo things H would say to me (things like "if you recorded the time we spend fighting vs. the time we spend not fighting, we spend a lot more time getting along," and "the fighting doesn't bother ME"), so I wonder if that's where she got it from.

Another possibility is that the fighting isn't scary to her because it's all she's ever known. She's used to it.

Though the other night when she was playing with my old My Little Ponies I handed down to her, she reenacted a fight between Mommy Pony and Daddy Pony that I thought was very interesting (Daddy Pony kept attacking Mommy Pony saying "I'm older and stronger than you!").

She is in play therapy, though I'm doing it through a graduate school program at a local university, so they are off for the summer right now. D is on their waitlist to continue in the fall.

[zondolit]

Wow, Gerda. You made a move! Impressive. I'm wondering how you are feeling?