Help ! I’m getting sucked back in… he’s extremely reasonable all of a sudden

[Tangled mangled]

I’m still waiting the financial settlement of the divorce. The assets in the family home, yet to be sold, buyer withdrew offer after 6 months.

His behaviour, considering how devastating it was for the property sale to fall through, he handled matters reasonably. Although I wasn’t with him at the time, the children were there and I chatted with them on the day it happened. He sounded very sensible in the background. No anger or losing his temper as he would have done in the past.

Perhaps he’s experiencing a temporary relief knowing he doesn’t have to move out of the home imminently and that without a sale the divorce is not finalised.

My S10 told me that dad said we were still married. That’s true but it’s only on paper.
He’s been very attentive to the children and advised S10 to be kinder to me !

Now to the pull : the red flags

He’s now requesting that he’s able to look after the children and will sort things out with his work to allow the children move back to the family home .

I’m at a point in my career where I can move back to part of the country where our home is and I am seriously considering this for many reasons: all having nothing to do with him .

1) the boys will be happier to go back to their home county. It’s a much vibrant part of the country.
2) schools are better too
3) it would be better a place to progress in my career
4) the community is less isolating than where we are at the moment

All these reasons I have but why do I still feel it’s part and parcel of the shared fantasy space I have with my ex

I have no intention undoing the divorce or getting back together but I feel a certain pull to get back to what I escaped from.

I’m also finding myself questioning why I feel uncomfortable with this brand new version of him. I want to believe that we can coparent peacefully and respectfully and it’s lovely for the kids to not feel the hatred between us during exchange/ pickup/drop off.
We are now at a point where the hostility is obvious and it’s good for everyone,
But it just feels weird.

Can anyone shed more light on what might be going on, are there blind spots I’ve missed.
Anyone with more experience on the stage we are at or is it in my head again?

[Tangled mangled]

Not obvious **

[zachira]

The change in your husband is likely temporary and he will probably go back to being the man you have known the last few years once he realizes he will not get what he wants by manipulating you by pretending to be nice temporarily.

[Tangled mangled]

The change in your husband is likely temporary and he will probably go back to being the man you have known the last few years once he realizes he will not get what he wants by manipulating you by pretending to be nice temporarily.

Strange how I know this cognitively but somehow I’m convincing myself to want to believe we have moved on.

I took a step back to analyse the past couple of weeks and I found that he’s tried to erode my boundaries several times than not.
Eg requesting that I send him money for groceries as the children were going to be with him for days. This is coming off the back of child maintenance services finally catching up with him- after a year of separation, the service is now deducting child support from his wages.

In his disordered thinking I should feel sorry for him and owe him money for the times the children are with him.

Now just typing this out, has made me realise where his goals are. Manipulate me to gain more parenting time, challenge CMS , defer or challenge selling our home.

[zachira]

You get it. It is just so hard when we would so like to believe that a person has done the  hard work of growing into becoming a better person, able to make amends for the hurt and harm the person has caused. It can help to look for the micro expressions, subtle signs that show in a person's body language for just a few seconds and difficult to detect, which are how the person is really feeling and trying to cover it up. I look for the congruence in the body language. For example: Is the smile really a smile of happiness with relaxed body language or one of courtesy or manipulation with cold eyes and stiff body language? It can help to remember that the most authentic communication is non verbal and that words are so often meaningless when the body language and long term actions do not match with what is being said. 

[Gerda]

I'm going through a similar thing now. After I moved out, H has been begging me to not file for divorce, saying we can go back into marriage counseling, etc.

But there are hints that he isn't really going to change. He's also been bothering me about money (in our case, paying for our daughter's preschool tuition for the upcoming school year). And he wants a custody schedule where I get D4 on weekdays and he gets her on weekends (so he gets all the fun time while I get all the work).

Have you read the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft? It has a list in there for "how can you tell he's really changing?" that I thought was really helpful. When I read that list and realized that there's no way my H would ever do all the things on that list (maybe even not be able to do half of them), I knew I needed to quit wasting my time hoping he'd change.

The book said in the vast majority of cases, the abusive man is nice for a little while, but then goes back to his old ways once he feels secure that he's got you back again. The only way they can really change is if they sincerely believe they need to, and most of them don't. Most of them don't really believe that there's anything wrong with how they treat you.

It's not really a book about BPD, but in a lot of ways it doesn't matter. People with BPD or other personality disorders also don't usually think there's anything wrong with them, or at least would rather stay in denial about it rather than doing the hard work of fixing it.

He's actually texting me again and again as I write this. Saying he'll do anything it takes to get me back.

During one of his past nice periods, my therapist told me to just enjoy it while I can, keeping in mind that it won't last. Maybe that's the approach you can take as well? If he's being reasonable and civil then just enjoy it while it lasts, but never let your guard down because you know it won't last forever.

[try2heal]

Have you read the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft? It has a list in there for "how can you tell he's really changing?" that I thought was really helpful. When I read that list and realized that there's no way my H would ever do all the things on that list (maybe even not be able to do half of them), I knew I needed to quit wasting my time hoping he'd change.

The book said in the vast majority of cases, the abusive man is nice for a little while, but then goes back to his old ways once he feels secure that he's got you back again. The only way they can really change is if they sincerely believe they need to, and most of them don't. Most of them don't really believe that there's anything wrong with how they treat you.

Seeing Lundy Bancroft referenced... I'm getting out of a uBPD relationship and I do domestic violence-affected family law. Cannot believe the red flags I ignored.... I do wonder how many DV relationships are BPD.

[ForeverDad]

But there are hints that he isn't really going to change... And he wants a custody schedule where I get D4 on weekdays and he gets her on weekends (so he gets all the fun time while I get all the work).

Again, he's showing his entitlement.  Don't feel pressured to listen to that.  If anything, review what his past parenting pattern was, how much or how little he was involved in parenting.  That history would be his "comfort zone" though of course he wishes his past pattern to be ignored so therefore he wants to either look good or pay less support.

You couldn't get him to change, even after years of trying.  Court won't even try to fix him, it will set orders and schedules AKA boundaries.  The only way he would improve is with meaningful long term therapy.  Anything less and he will remain largely unchanged.

All courts default to schedules where weekends alternate, though weekends can vary in length.  In my temp order I had alternate 3 day (72 hour) weekends before we moved to a 2-2-5-5 schedule, and eventually I had majority time.  We always had alternate weekends.  Other parents which can't manage such a long stretch of time (weekends or otherwise) with the kids would get less, maybe Sat Noon to Sun 6pm, others maybe not even overnights.  It will vary according to individuals but courts expect some sort of alternate weekends.

As an example, how would you get a weekend away with D4 to visit family or amusement park or whatever if he had every weekend?  So No, he can't hog every weekend!

Unless your ex has a required schedule that is non-standard, such as a police officer, fire fighter, paramedic, etc, then he should not get every weekend!

The book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft said in the vast majority of cases, the abusive man is nice for a little while, but then goes back to his old ways once he feels secure that he's got you back again. The only way they can really change is if they sincerely believe they need to, and most of them don't. Most of them don't really believe that there's anything wrong with how they treat you.

My ex was a "she" so in my case Bancroft's book can also be Why Does SHE Do That?  Mental illness and personality disorders are not the domain of just one sex.

He's actually texting me again and again as I write this. Saying he'll do anything it takes to get me back.

Like that would ever happen! Ignore that, or politely shut that topic down by refusing to discuss it.

Beware too of "shared" custody.  Often we're stuck with that loose framework but the reality is the vagueness just enables more obstruction rather than cooperation.

[Notwendy]

There can be a cyclic nature to these behaviors- issues, followed by relatively more reasonable behavior. It helps to take a long range view of patterns, rather than in the moment. "He's reasonable now" doesn't mean he's going to be from now own.

Motivation and reward are factors in all behaviors and motivation can be internal and external. I think we have seen where pwBPD can "hold it together" in public because of motivation. Your partner with BPD at the moment is motivated to behave better to get things back to where they were- but once you return, that motivation won't be there.

For someone to truly change, it takes time, and work on their part. This quick "I am good now" isn't the result of personal work to change. It's in the moment, to get what they want.

[Tangled mangled]

So far I’ve responded to his tactics by bringing the court orders to his attention.

From what the children have said, it appears he’s in an elated state where he’s getting narc supply from his FOO- they were his original supply before we met. Through out our 10 years of marriage he triangulated , with his FOO being the perpetrators for not setting him up for life and I was the rescuer encouraging him to take actions to better himself ( leg drivers license etc, ater a perpetrator for doing this).

My main concern is around moving back to the area where the family home is - while it might be good for the children, it exposes them to more of his behaviour and he will have access to me through the children and may intensify the smear campaign. Living 6 hours away from him took away all the control he had.

I worry about him gaining access or knowledge of my place of work- as a healthcare staff it’s very easy for him to access my place of work. He’s currently used one of the children’s health condition to gain access to our address - he’s taken S6 to ER twice , for a skin condition that I’m actively monitoring.

This is all to erode my boundaries- of not granting him my address information and also to undermine my knowledge as a medical professional.

I’m considering a safe distance would be living at a town over an hour away from him. I see him challenging the custody arrangements if I move closer.

[Gerda]

My ex was a "she" so in my case Bancroft's book can also be Why Does SHE Do That?  Mental illness and personality disorders are not the domain of just one sex.

Yes, and in the introduction to the book, he says that women abusing men happens, but is just not his area of expertise. I'm not aware of a book about that, but if there isn't one, someone ought to write one.

He also says most abusive men don't have personality disorders, but my therapist (who is the one who recommended the book to me) told me she doesn't agree with that. There's a short part in the book where he explains how to tell the difference between someone who has a PD and someone who is "just" abusive. Basically, it says that if they have a PD, they act like that with everyone, but if they don't, then they're only abusive to their partner.

In the end, the distinction probably doesn't matter, but I just wonder how anyone could be abusive to anyone and not have some kind of mental disorder. The mindset someone has to have to think it's OK to treat anyone else like this is just unfathomable to me.

Anyway, back on topic, my therapist says that when someone with BPD is afraid they're going to lose you, suddenly being really nice and reasonable is a pretty common response. They're never able to keep it up for long though.

[ParentingThruIt]

I can relate to how you feel. We have all spent years hoping our partner would change enough to be a good partner or at least a good parent/ co-parent. That's been our fantasy outcome for a long time. Any hint that it might happen is enough to get our hopes up.

I think you need to prioritize safety.

As others have noted, when I was with my ex the cycles of bad times / good times always got my hopes up that "it was over" during the good times. But the bad times always came back.  I would wait to see YEARS of consistency, as well as acknowledging his wrongdoing and making amends, as well as safety plans for if he has another mental health episode, before really trusting him.

Another risk if if the court sees you trust him sometimes they may think you can trust him all the time.

Congratulations for all you've done to take care of yourself and your family. Don't jeopardize it. If you want to move find a place to move to that still keeps you safe.  It's not all of nothing. <3

[boundriesrus]

I to can relate to all of this. After I told my uBPD wife last summer that I was done and that the marriage wasn't working for me. The very next morning, its like a switch was flipped and she made breakfast (hates to cook...and I mean HATES) for me with coffee and is the nicest person you could ever think of. Helping moreso around the house, finally went out and got a job. But the creepy thing for me is that she is all about ME. I don't like it. Everything is about what i want to do, and I have told her I don't want that. I even called out the behavior in marriage therapy via telling her she has been acting overtly nice since that day and that is felt forced, as if she was a Stepford wife. I don't think it registered with her as she still continues to act like that to this very day.

I to worry that once I put down the hammer in a few weeks/months, that she is going to revert back to when she was at her peak BPD behavior, silent treatments, blaming me for her things, and stuff like that. It feels like she is trying to suck me back in, still saying I love you multiple times a day, after I had already told her in marriage therapy that I no longer loved her romantically anymore, and only saw her and loved her as a friend and co parent to our 6yo daughter. I just want closure on everything so this chapter of my life is done. Normally she is fine, but when she flips, she flips hard, and then later on doesn't recall the things she has done or said, and even admits that doesn't sound like her.

Do what you feel is best for yourself and your children. Use the courts when necessary and establish those strong boundries with your spouse.

[Tangled mangled]

There can be a cyclic nature to these behaviors- issues, followed by relatively more reasonable behavior. It helps to take a long range view of patterns, rather than in the moment. "He's reasonable now" doesn't mean he's going to be from now own.

Motivation and reward are factors in all behaviors and motivation can be internal and external. I think we have seen where pwBPD can "hold it together" in public because of motivation. Your partner with BPD at the moment is motivated to behave better to get things back to where they were- but once you return, that motivation won't be there.

For someone to truly change, it takes time, and work on their part. This quick "I am good now" isn't the result of personal work to change. It's in the moment, to get what they want.

His motivations are quite clear to see . He wants more access to me and the boys for more manipulation and control.

He’s now the church going parent , living a healthy lifestyle exercising 7 days a week. He’s continued to be reasonable with the children but I had to leverage on custody of the children to get him to play ball with the financial settlement.
Thank you, reminding me of the bpd rollercoaster helps me hold on to the reality of my situation.

[Tangled mangled]

Thanks everyone!

I’m usually sure of myself when I need to take action but lately I’ve had to question my motivation and decisions a lot. Dealing with my ex often feels like playing a game in a dark room, where the rules of the game keep changing and I have grab onto reality for my dear life.

@Gerda and FD thanks for book recommendation , I will have read. Thanks for reminding me of what behavioural change looks like.

@Parenting Thrult,
Thanks for the advice, I surely will maintain a safe distance from him. No way I’m going anywhere near where I used be. Interacting beyond child contact is totally out of the question.
I once heard some call that hope you described toxic-hope and in the early stages of my separation, I felt tortured by it and self doubt. Toxic hope, indecision and self doubt all seem like the side effects of years of manipulation and gaslighting.

Boundaries
I went through the step forward husband phase with my ex. I can relate to the discomfort you’ve described. I was disgusted too. My ex added the extra layer of creepiness by watching my every move, like he was looking for signs that I was already cheating on him. I had told him I wanted a divorce after years of begging to go to marriage counselling.

I couldn’t stand the marriage anymore, everyday I spent with him felt like I was navigating a sea of  decomposing corpses. It just felt weird and there was nothing I could do to stop it or to feel any different or anything at all. I didn’t go to couples therapy or counselling. By the time he agreed to counselling I had moved on to requesting mediation for navigating custody and the divorce. He kept insisting that we could work things out but by then I was already dead inside.

He used my S8 at the time to get under my skin- my son started calling me the name  my ex used to call me ( e.g babe, ) , just to erode my boundaries - requesting we separate and start planning to live our separate lives.
I will continue to maintain my boundaries, sticking to the court and acting accordingly.
Thank you

[try2heal]

Boundary Erosion--great phrase and I think it's the key, at least for me.

The nice/reasonable person is the one you loved. It's so normal to wish that they are really trying to be that person, that he's the *real person*.

I was with my uBPDxBF for almost 3 and a half years, and the splitting and emotional whiplash started about 7 months in, right after we brought both families together for a weekend trip. When I look back at all the times I let him apologize and blame it on medication errors and promise it wouldn't happen again or he'd work on it or..... I look at the boundary erosion that would come. I'd set rules or boundaries, he'd agree to them, then he'd start to creep over them. When I pushed back I was "controlling" "judgmental" "pushy" "selfish."

Trust yourself. Your ex spent years telling you not to. We're here to remind you.

[jaded7]

Boundary Erosion--great phrase and I think it's the key, at least for me.

The nice/reasonable person is the one you loved. It's so normal to wish that they are really trying to be that person, that he's the *real person*.

I was with my uBPDxBF for almost 3 and a half years, and the splitting and emotional whiplash started about 7 months in, right after we brought both families together for a weekend trip. When I look back at all the times I let him apologize and blame it on medication errors and promise it wouldn't happen again or he'd work on it or..... I look at the boundary erosion that would come. I'd set rules or boundaries, he'd agree to them, then he'd start to creep over them. When I pushed back I was "controlling" "judgmental" "pushy" "selfish."

Trust yourself. Your ex spent years telling you not to. We're here to remind you.

Good observation. And it's likely that we fell in the love with the person they were representing themselves to be in the beginning. This is my experience. Lot's of sending me things via text about my hobbies and
interests...in the first 2 months, never again. Lot's of inviting me over for dinner (she was a great cook)...in the first 2 months, then never again. Lot's of wanting to come over, in the first 6 months...never again. I could go on.

Then the criticism and anger started to show, the mind reading expectations and explosions when I didn't. Plus the other things had stopped.

So we tend to try to get that other person back, and we are increasingly told we are bad and messing things up.

Trusting yourself is difficult in these situations, and is why we get so confused. Confusion is the hallmark of these relationships, in my opinion.

[Tangled mangled]

Update,

It didn’t take that long for him to revert to old ways. He’s challenging the amount of money I receive for child maintenance. And is putting our assets at risk through non payment of the mortgage. The bank is taking serious actions and it’s concerning.

He’s requesting more time with the children- but just to reach what’s allowed in the court order.

I’m watching how things pan out but fully aware of the games.

Thanks for the reminders.

[Skip]

Tangled mangled, if I understand correctly, you moved away to get space to recover from the relationship damages and you have legal documents to support that.

Setting aside anything going on with him, it sounds like you still need time and likely the finalization divorce to feel comfortable in your life. It would seem to me that its good to stay the course. It takes time to unravel our enmeshment in a relationship. A lot of what you are saying here shows you are not ready.

When we see someone "doing good" and we feel that is dangerous - its a bright  that we have not yet detached. This is pretty typical at this stage of divorce. Life will look a lot different 12 months after the final papers.

So the question is, what are reasonable expectations of you (and of him) at this point?

1. Should he be able to see his boys the amount of time provided for in the separation agreement?

2. I know you said you have limited finances right now. Does he have has limited finances, too? Does he have the money to operate the home and pay child support, and otherwise live? Is he in a better situation than you or is he struggling to?

3. If the house is joint property and if you both gain from the sale (and lose if t he bank forecloses), is it a joint obligation to get the mortgage paid or work something out with the bank?

You two will be partners at some level for the next decade because of the children,.

It sounds like you want to be back home and he wants to have his boys closer and those are reasonable things. Would it help to communicate that these are good goals for after the divorce is final?

You can (and should) keep your distance now and take baby steps toward a more cooperative post divorce relationship. Show your approval and reward his good behavior (or at least validate it). Acknowledge his struggles (just don't get sucked into them). Hopefully he will start to follow your lead.

If he paying weekly for you to feed children and he has them for a week, its not unreasonable for him to ask for food money. I'm not suggesting that you do it (or not do it), just that you see that it is not necessarily a con or manipulation.

[Tangled mangled]

Skip ,

Thanks for the input.

The property is in his name only. He had a good paying job but changed it to a lower paying one for reasons I’m not aware of. He preferred me at home with the children and when he lost that control over me , decided to reduce his working hours and spend more time obsessing over exercising.

I’m paying rent where I live and he’s paying same amount I pay for rent, for the mortgage.Im not yet on a great income as a junior in my profession. I’ve only started receiving a fraction of his income in the past few months- less than 25% of it. The mortgage arrears started accruing almost a year before child maintenance service started the deductions.

I’m working with my solicitor to offer solutions to delay the bank taking further actions, to allow the sale to complete.

He’s quite messy with the custody arrangements- his allowed half the summer holiday and was aware of this for a while but initially requested having the children for less than two weeks, then as things are heading south generally with the house sale, he’s started requesting the boys relocate to where he is .

He’s generally in a better situation than I’m in as I have the children full time and this affects the amount of hours I work without incurring a hefty childcare bill.

With no childcare to worry about he can work as much as he wants. In the past we had arguments around childcare as he would make sure he had hardly any days off, so that I’m stuck at home with the children while he accuses me of being lazy.


He’s deliberately reduced his income and was not paying for the mortgage on purpose.He continued to spend on exercise equipment and all kinds of stuff to maintain his lifestyle. He still drives a bigger car than he requires and there are no signs of cutting back on spending during this period. Eg still spoils the children with unnecessary items.

I’m sticking to the court orders and to reduce travel time, I’ll be moving closer to where he is but still live  a good hour’s between us.

[ForeverDad]

There's the account years ago of a doctor in California who wanted his child support reduced because... he quit doctoring and started flipping burgers for far less income.  Court didn't let him get away with it.

Even if his income is lower, the court can apply imputed income, what he is reasonably capable of earning.

If he's qualified for more income then he can pay the mortgage, bills, etc.  His income is going somewhere else, where doesn't matter.  Don't get bamboozled.

[Skip]

I’m sticking to the court orders and to reduce travel time, I’ll be moving closer to where he is but still live  a good hour’s between us.

That sounds wise.

I’m working with my solicitor to offer solutions to delay the bank taking further actions, to allow the sale to complete.

Smart. 

He’s deliberately reduced his income and was not paying for the mortgage on purpose.

What happened here? Did he lose his job? Was he hoping to pay the past diue mortgage from the sales proceeds? Seems like he has a lot to lose.

[Tangled mangled]

There's the account years ago of a doctor in California who wanted his child support reduced because... he quit doctoring and started flipping burgers for far less income.  Court didn't let him get away with it.

Even if his income is lower, the court can apply imputed income, what he is reasonably capable of earning.

If he's qualified for more income then he can pay the mortgage, bills, etc.  His income is going somewhere else, where doesn't matter.  Don't get bamboozled.

FD
I think this the MO of my ex. I haven’t really checked how the CMS handles deliberate underemployment but I think he’s able to get away with it in this country. The courts here are quite lenient to offenders and one of the judges told me during custody proceedings that the family court doesn’t go after parents who default on child maintenance. The CMS however has the powers to deduct sums owed from wages and can enforce through court proceedings placing a charge on his assets.

The CMS has only started the deductions so I may seek advice on how to alert them after the sale of the property. I’ve already made them aware of the mortgage arrears and the fact it’s reducing my share of the equity.

[Tangled mangled]

That sounds wise.
 

Smart. 
 

What happened here? Did he lose his job? Was he hoping to pay the past diue mortgage from the sales proceeds? Seems like he has a lot to lose.

His well paying job was an agency/temp in healthcare but had been with same employer for over 7 years on a steady income. On this basis it was easy for him to argue that he lost his contract and won’t need to prove it to CMS.
Secondly, a couple of months before I physically left, he was being investigated by the police for drama he created at work. He tried to implicate me in the incident, saying we live together so it concerns me. That’s ridiculous because I have nothing to do with his employer or his job and by that time I had already involved all services- police, courts, social services- alerting them of our separation.
Apparently he was cleared of every allegation and I was not questioned by the police or involved with the incident.
He has always accused me of being financially abusive because I had the guts to return to university to achieve a high paying professional degree/qualification. I was willing to take into account that my training cost us thousands in family assets. But I wasn’t able to negotiate a fair settlement with him and so I left it to the courts to decide- we ended up with 50/50 in the assets in the family home.
So his goal is to squander the assets in the equity, reducing my share. He’s gone scorched earth by doing this because if the property is repossessed/ foreclosed- which I believe is his goal- we’ll end up losing tens of thousands of ££ after the property is auctioned below market value.

[try2heal]

If the Court gave you a 50/50 split in the equity and he has deliberately reduced the equity, you may be able to receive the 50% of the intended amount instead of the actual amount--take the arrears off of his half.