question about how to respond to a full dysregulation

[livednlearned]

My stepdaughter experienced a dysregulation that I'm trying to understand better.

On day 3 of a family get together in the mountains she seemed more tired from the hike than other family members. H suspected she was dehydrated and she agreed. She takes pride in being a hiker but she's not in great shape and it seems like these hikes tire her more than others. Or maybe it's that she needs more time to recover but doesn't get it. She doesn't like to be alone but probably needs the downtime.

Next day she woke up out of sorts. Throughout the day she was passive aggressive to us. By dinner time she was snapping at people and there were early signs she was headed for a full dysregulation.

Anyone who tried to listen or empathize or validate got attacked. Earlier, she had said to H she felt hormonal and she was tired and dehydrated, but 30 min later it was our fault because we made her feel bad for being 90 min late to wake up and get going. Her sister SD30 got the full treatment and the rest of us got accused of not wanting her there/thinking she has no friends/laughing about her behind her back, etc. 

I had a similar sibling dynamic growing up with a brother prone to (violent) dysregulations and a family who failed to protect each other during these episodes. SD27 isn't violent but she is aggressive and the family dynamic is similar.

My question is whether there is any getting through to someone in maximum flood state. I seemed to be the person most attuned to the incubation period. I think H was too but was willing it to go away by ignoring it.

When SD27 became clearly dysregulated we sat there as though nothing out of the ordinary was happening. As she was going through the dysreg cycle it made me wonder if there's a skill we're missing that could help not just SD27 but other family members get through these moments, especially the people being targeted who have to manage maximum aggression while acting as though everything is ok.

There was a moment when it was really clear that SD27 wasn't in a reasonable state of mind. She was clearly dysregulated and yet she insisted SD30 talk to her. I was at the table when SD27 approached and my instinct was to protect myself (I wasn't sure if I was the target). My instinct, if she targeted me, was to say that I felt flooded (demonstrating her state of mind by pointing to mine). To say to her: I notice I struggle to find the right words when I feel this way. Maybe we could take a time out and do a check in tomorrow morning when I was (or we were )more likely to be in wisemind.

Then help her notice the bigger picture, which is that family members want to go for a walk/play a board game/make brownies, etc.

I don't think SD27 would cool down but it would set the tone for focusing on the way strong emotions can make it challenging to work through things, and sometimes it's best to give things a minute. Sort of like DBT skills to hold ice instead of self-harm, except in this case it's to find a way to self-soothe instead of attack people in ways that she often regrets later.

Next morning she was still coming down from peak dysreg and wouldn't hug anyone when it came time to leave. I was in the car with H and she blew up his phone with suicidal ideation and saying she wanted to call off her engagement because her fiance wasn't supportive.

By night she was trying to make jokes about her behavior and the following day she texted that she had a great time despite not feeling well. She refers to these dysregs as "spells" that she has.

I guess I haven't read much here or anywhere really about dysregs in the context of what we went through and wondered if anyone had experience or thoughts on how to navigate one so that SD27 didn't escalate (like if we or I pointed out her aggressive behavior, which would incite her to dysregulate more) but still communicated how emotions can interfere with some tasks (like thinking well) and give her an example how to self-soothe (like going for a walk or taking a time-out or engaging in a task) before discussing something that isn't actually based in fact, so why even go there until wisemind has been attempted or if lucky, achieved.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Josie C]

Wow LnL, I want to be able to channel your approach- calm, centered, and without the intense emotions that arise in me when my dd is dysregulated. The idea of experiencing a dysreg situation while acting as though nothing is out of the ordinary is new to me.  To be able to think clearly and look for ways to model behavior while being attacked is a state of mind I haven’t reached. I’m trying and want to learn more.

Things are really bad with my adult daughter right now, and I’ve realized that a when she is like this she cannot hear validation or reason.

Thank you for your post.  I am interested in reading responses about other approaches and additional skills that can be used in these situations.

[livednlearned]

Josie C, it is so hard to not be triggered as well, especially when there's a lot of aggression directed at you. I find it hard to stay centered even when the aggression is directed at all of us.

I learned something from a trauma-informed therapist who encouraged me when triggered to count items in the room that share characteristics, like everything the color blue. It's still challenging but I've used it a few times successfully.

SD27 is very sensitive to feeling less-than and does not take direction AT ALL when she's dysregulating. It's why I'm wondering whether modeling successful dysreg behaviors might be helpful since it doesn't focus on her feelings, which I have to imagine she knows are out of control.

[CC43]

Hi there,

When moods are simmering or boiling over in full attack mode, I try not to get sucked in. I try to remember not to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) because that feeds the fire.  I try to give time and space. That might be leaving the room, going for a walk or starting a mindless task (like ironing or straightening up a room). If they follow me in search of a fight, I might say, there’s nothing that I can say that will make it better right now, and I’ll leave the room again. Maybe I’ll say, I’m going for a walk and you can come if you want, knowing that they won’t. If it’s late at night I might take a relaxing bath. Anyway, doing something physical, simple and mindless (walking, cleaning, bathing) can help calm ME down and keep me from blowing up myself. I’ve found that there is no use arguing or using logic during periods of dysregulation.

[js friend]

I agree that there is no point jadeing when your pwbpd is dysregulated, but what do you do when they continue and attack?

I witnessed this when a family member and my udd got into an argument. The family member decided the best thing to do was to leave but udd followed and attacked her from behind pulling her to the ground. It wasnt reported to the police as the family member just wanted to get out of there as soon as possible.  My udd has never physically attacked me but has followed me around  to abuse me but would often stop abruptly mid flow if she knew I was recording her so I wonder if they suspect that there will be proof of their abuse they are actually able tone it down.

[CC43]

Hi JS,

I know what you mean when a dysregulated person follows you around to continue the attack. That has happened to me. What I’ll do is leave the room again. I might not say anything. Or I might say, I need to cool off (even though they are the ones who need to cool off).  Or I might say, you’re not interested in anything I say, so why are you still trying to talk to me (even though I know all they want to do is yell at me). By leaving, sometimes they see that they’re the ones looking for a fight, and they might step back. And sometimes I’ll leave the house, because I feel they really need that much distance. There’s park I go to, or the library if it’s open.

[zachira]

When a person has a full dysregulation, he/she cannot handle what is going on inside. It can sometimes be helpful to get the person to focus on something outside of themselves, like asking them to describe something in the room.

[livednlearned]

I agree that there is no point jadeing when your pwbpd is dysregulated, but what do you do when they continue and attack?

That had to be tough watching her attack someone. Was she at all remorseful? With SD27 when she does something she knows is socially or morally unacceptable, her demeanor can be remorseful even though her words are not.

SD27 has not physically harmed anyone to my knowledge, at least in the family. I have a suspicion that she shoved her ex BF then alleged it was he who shoved her.

With me she has moved quickly in front of me to block me from leaving a room and her body language is often menacing when she's dysregulated. She will stand too close to people or follow her target around, similar to what others have said.

Last night H came home and said he never wants to do a family retreat again. SD27 apparently texted to say that she patched things up with SD30, but SD30 remains angry. I would too. Now SD27 (victim) is triangulating with H (rescuer), saying SD30 (perpetrator) needs to move on.

I don't believe we (H and I) can do anything to fully manage SD27's dysregulations when they're happening. But surely there are ways for the family to respond so that we aren't just bystanders to SD27 aggressions. And somehow do this without SD27 doubling down on being a victim. That's why I wonder if SD30 or me or anyone else focusing on our emotions, while giving SD27 a habit to practice, including an invitation to focus on a task, still part of the group.

The lingering bad feelings that SD30 has resonate for me. SD27 is through her dysregulation, which would happen no matter what we did or SD30 did. Whereas SD30 was left to fend for herself while we sat here. We remained neutral and maybe that was the right thing to do, but if SD30 had back-up when/if she said "I'm flooded and need some time" then at least we've helped her (and as much as possible SD27) navigate the moment.

Or like zachira mentioned, get SD27 to focus on something outside of themselves. Which tbh I cannot see working with SD27 because she would perceive it as talking down to her, drawing attention to how dysregulated she was. That's why I thought maybe making it about my (if she attacks me) or SD30's emotions might be a way to thread the needle.

If it happens, I think it will be me who introduces it. A few days ago H was able to see how fun the week was and offered several moments that were high points for him. Last night, after texting with SD27 all day, he said no more trips with all the kids. Seemed like catastrophizing to me. I suggested ways to have one night all together, with SD27 coming for 2 nights then overlap, then 2 nights with SD30. We would have to figure out how it would work with SS25.

It's tricky being stepmom in this family. I can see the ceiling to H's skills and the family dynamic is so entrenched. Sometimes I think about reaching out to SD30 but then I waver and think I might be overstepping.

[kells76]

I don't believe we (H and I) can do anything to fully manage SD27's dysregulations when they're happening. But surely there are ways for the family to respond so that we aren't just bystanders to SD27 aggressions. And somehow do this without SD27 doubling down on being a victim. That's why I wonder if SD30 or me or anyone else focusing on our emotions, while giving SD27 a habit to practice, including an invitation to focus on a task, still part of the group.

Management vs response seems like a good distinction. It makes sense that attempting to "manage" her episodes is a dead end; she's going to do what she's going to do.

We do have control over our responses, so querying "how can I/we respond more effectively or less ineffectively" makes sense.

It also seems like you've highlighted part of the dynamic when you describe the rest of the family as "bystanders" -- kind of like an audience.

It sounds like on vacation, the response the family had was to be observers of SD27's dysregulation.

I wonder what would happen if one by one, you all declined to stay in the same room with her when it was happening?

You've been wondering about modeling behaviors/responses to her, and that does make more sense then explaining/telling her what she should do (which as others have noted, is another dead end when she's off the rails).

Could you and the family get on the same page that you can exit and do other things when SD27 dysregulates? "You know, I'm kind of hungry; I'm going to get something at Starbucks and I'll be back in an hour". "I'm tired and I think I'll nap until dinner". "Looks like the weather is clearing up; I'm going to hike down to the lake, anyone else want to join?"

Yeah, it might hit her "abandonment" nerve but doesn't everything? She could feel abandoned (and maybe did) with all of you as the audience. Is having an audience inadvertently making it more difficult for her to re-regulate?

The lingering bad feelings that SD30 has resonate for me. SD27 is through her dysregulation, which would happen no matter what we did or SD30 did. Whereas SD30 was left to fend for herself while we sat here. We remained neutral and maybe that was the right thing to do, but if SD30 had back-up when/if she said "I'm flooded and need some time" then at least we've helped her (and as much as possible SD27) navigate the moment.

It's interesting to read again the sense that you all were a captive audience to her. I do understand that there may have been factors in play making it more difficult to exit -- not every situation is conducive to the "who else wants a glass of milk in the kitchen" approach 

What if you were allowed to prioritize SD30's well-being and model to her that she gets to exit? "SD30, I feel like getting a burger, will you drive me down there" or "SD30, I think I left my _____ in the car, would you give me a hand looking for it"...? Even if she declines, maybe it goes back to management vs response -- you can't manage SD30's choices but you can choose how you respond and where your focus is during SD27's unmanageable episodes, at least giving SD30 two doors to choose from instead of "I get to be the audience and that's it"?

It might actually protect the relationship between SD27 & SD30 if SD30 isn't around to experience SD27's dysregulation?

IDK -- again, there are probably nuances of the situation that I've missed. It'd be nice to have just one vacation without having to war-game the next one, I bet.

[CC43]

I'll suggest again, you might not say anything in response; rather, leave the room calmly (not in a huff).  If you have to say something or make an excuse, make it about you ("I need something" or "I need a minute").  Of course, this doesn't work if you're driving in a car.  In that case, I stare straight ahead and try to be a gray rock.  I'll practice my box breathing (controlled deep breathing) in those moments.

If the presence of of other siblings is triggering, maybe you could stagger vacation visits.  That's where I am right now with my BPD stepdaughter who is about the same age as yours.  You see, the siblings bring up rivalries--their mere existence makes her feel inferior, possibly abandoned (i.e. left behind), and they steal some of the parental attention.  She is incredibly jealous of any of their successes or happiness--a job promotion, a new romantic relationship, a new pet, whatever.  Talk about any of those things could be triggers.  So right now, the siblings don't convene in the parental home simultaneously.  Sometimes I think that might be "enabling" her poor behavior, but on the other hand, it's worked this last year, and we are able to spend time with all the kids without meltdowns.  I'm crossing my fingers that when my BPD stepdaughter learns to manage her emotions better, and when she eventually hits some adult milestones, she'll grow in confidence enough to repair the relationship with her siblings.  But right now, she's not there yet.

[livednlearned]

I wonder what would happen if one by one, you all declined to stay in the same room with her when it was happening?

That's an interesting suggestion. My hunch is that it would escalate the dysreg because now we're clearly rejecting her. SD30 did ask if SD27 wanted to talk privately and SD27 said no and looking back I think she was so dysregulated there wasn't any sense left. But when she started to raise her voice SD30 said let's go upstairs and SD27 followed. They went upstairs but it was overlooking the room where the rest of us were gathered. Not really private and I think it's because SD27 wanted to fight openly.

Could you and the family get on the same page that you can exit and do other things when SD27 dysregulates? "You know, I'm kind of hungry; I'm going to get something at Starbucks and I'll be back in an hour". "I'm tired and I think I'll nap until dinner". "Looks like the weather is clearing up; I'm going to hike down to the lake, anyone else want to join?"

I guess in the anatomy of SD27 dysregs there's a period where everyone is hoping she stays below the line of acceptable fuming. I suspect she has alexithymia which is a condition where people have trouble labeling or naming their emotions, because she tends to source emotions to somatic complaints.

During the first phase of the dysreg she was shut down and moody, which was fairly easy to ignore because there were enough social distractions. Second phase was a lot of somatic complaints that went on a long time until people give her pat advice and my guess is she felt vaguely invalidated, which fueled the dysreg further. Reflecting back, most of us got up to do other things at this point so it's likely that kicked the dysreg into phase 3 where she came at SD30 aggressively and somewhat out of the blue.

Yeah, it might hit her "abandonment" nerve but doesn't everything? She could feel abandoned (and maybe did) with all of you as the audience. Is having an audience inadvertently making it more difficult for her to re-regulate?

That's kind of H's approach. Give her advice that aligns with what her therapist counsels her to do (nap, take a bath, go for a walk, hydrate, do mindful breathing), which tends to push the dysreg underground. You can see it still there in her body language and facial expression and more often than not she becomes more aggressive. It's almost like we can see her figure out who to attack for what passes as socially acceptable within family norms.

What if you were allowed to prioritize SD30's well-being and model to her that she gets to exit? "SD30, I feel like getting a burger, will you drive me down there" or "SD30, I think I left my _____ in the car, would you give me a hand looking for it"...? Even if she declines, maybe it goes back to management vs response -- you can't manage SD30's choices but you can choose how you respond and where your focus is during SD27's unmanageable episodes, at least giving SD30 two doors to choose from instead of "I get to be the audience and that's it"?

With how strong the phase 3 dysreg was and how quickly and forcefully it happened, I'm not sure it would be feasible to jump in as a 3rd party without it feeling like I was rescuing SD30. My sense is that SD27 has the most sophisticated sense of how drama triangles work in her favor and this would tee things up beautifully for her  

It might actually protect the relationship between SD27 & SD30 if SD30 isn't around to experience SD27's dysregulation?

That's the goal, at least in part.

At first H tried to characterize it as "sisters fight." Last night I asked H what he texted SD27 and he said "you were angry then got over it, SD30 is going through that cycle now -- give her time and space."

To me they are not the same. SD27 dysreg was a storm passing through but for SD30 it's choosing to avoid a tedious weather pattern.

Would you reach out to SD30 if it were you? We have a mutually respecting relationship. It has drama triangle dynamics to reach out but what if the purpose is to see if there are solutions that might help in those moments? She has talked to me before about boundaries with SD27, and boundaries in general. We have never talked about drama triangle dynamics. I've talked to SD30 before about SD27 suicidal ideation and it was a good conversation for both of us. I started it off by being very clear that my intention was to provide SD30 with support. It felt important to the conversation to say that so it didn't feel like the two of us sh!t- talking SD27.

I don't have a family that could get together like that -- it was the first time I've had that experience and it was so fun. We had some genuinely good times, including a really fun night playing board games, beautiful hikes, eating at a great restaurant, making meals together, goofing off on our phones making hilarious stickers based on photos of things we did. I feel like surely we can improve how we handle these dysregs so that people feel protected and safe? Without making things worse for SD27.

CC43, we may be heading that way. For me, it's actually easier when siblings are there because it dilutes the intensity. I seem to become a substitute sibling when the real ones aren't there. But I hear what you're saying. Last time SD27 visited on her own H kept her busy hiking. I joined one hike at H's request and ended up with a migraine half way into the hike.

It's also possible SD30 will flat out refuse to do another vacation like this. If I were the target of SD27 I'd be thinking the same thing.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[GaGrl]

I know SD27 has been in therapy, but can you refresh me on whether she has done any DBT?

I believe language is important, and if there were some share language that could be used, that might help to flag her before the situation deteriorates. For example, she calls her there hilarious "spells" -- can you use that language or DBT language like dysregulation.

Walking away is one technique. Naming the behavior but in a validating way -- along with suggestions like her therapist -- may be another technique.

Otherwise, you may be looking at 40 more years of her behaviors essentially controlling family time.

[Josie C]

Last night I had an opportunity to model behavior. (Isn’t it just peachy when we’re given a chance to try skills? )

DD29 called last night, crying.  She believes we don’t listen, help, or care about her.  This call, after I texted her saying I had today free and could come over to help her with some overwhelming household tasks that she’d mentioned a few days ago. It didn’t take long for the tears to turn to anger and soon a flood of hateful words. As soon as the accusations/blaming started, I told her that these conversations are difficult for me, that I get defensive, and that I worry I’ll say something unhelpful or have regrets. I told her that to keep talking, we would have to change the subject. She pushed back for a moment, I repeated myself (using nearly identical phrasing)—and she took a breath and changed the subject. Did I model how to step away from difficult emotions? I don’t know if she absorbed it or not.

Then today, I did go over to help her.  We spent 2 mostly pleasant hours together (we haven’t spent that much time without her screaming at me or threatening to harm herself in months). Once done, we sat and she told me how she feels really anxious during the mid-part of the day, and described some unpleasant emotions, which I (hopefully) validated. She spoke about a possible job opportunity, which turned into chatter about schools we’ve worked at. Suddenly, the chat turned tense and she wanted to start in on a litany of ways her dad and I have wronged her over the course of her life (starting with choosing to raise a family in a rural area).  I excused myself to the kitchen—and when I returned, she said if I didn’t want her to get nasty, I shouldn’t talk about where she went to high school. I have no idea where that came from and didn’t ask. I said “point taken, I’ll remember that.”  We finalized a plan for tomorrow without any drama, and I left.

Her words were delivered harshly, but it could have gone much worse. I do know that I felt better about myself— I kept my cool, redirected, left the room. I’ve had two moments where I didn’t let her emotions hijack the situation. I just wish it wasn’t so exhausting.

[CC43]

Hi Josie,

With that last interaction, it sounds like you're on the right track.  That particular situation sounded like there was mounting tension, rather than a full dysregulation.  In tense situations that are still conversations, what I sometimes employ is what I call the three strikes rule.  I've mentioned this before on this site, and I apologize if I'm being repetitive, but it sounds very much like what you did.  Anyway, when the conversation gets tense or overly negative, or starts going in circles, I'll signal a desire to change the topic.  I might say, "This conversation is stressing me out, so let's please talk about something else."  If she says, "Yes, but ..." and continues with the same topic, I'll counter, "Look, we're not getting anywhere, and I don't feel like talking about this anymore."  If she continues once again, I'll make an excuse to leave the room or hang up, while still being polite.  From experience, I use this tactic quite often, and it seems to work, because I make it about me (this conversation is stressing me out ...), and the "targets" can't really get mad at me, because they were the ones making the mistake of trying to beat a dead horse.  I guess the distinction I'm trying to make is that in a full dysregulation, I think she can't listen to any of your words at all, and it's probably best to be silent (or use very few words) and leave the situation.  However, when there's a conversation, she's still listening to you, so you can say things like, "Let's please change the topic of conversation, or I'm going to be too stressed out to continue."

Josie, it sounds like your stepdaughter is unhinged, if she's 29 and calling you in tears because you "don't listen to her," when obviously you do.  It also seems like she's very stuck in the past, dredging up all the perceived wrongs from her childhood, as is typical of BPD.  She's so stuck in the past, she can't address her current issues and function well in the present.  She has "overwhelming" household tasks that she needs help with, even though she has plenty of time (she's unemployed and has no kids)?  That sounds like she simply can't cope with life.  It sounds like her emotions are all over the place and getting in the way of her relationships, planning and execution--all typical byproducts of BPD.  I don't remember if you said whether your stepdaughter was diagnosed with BPD, or if she was getting any therapy or treatment.  It sounds to me like she really needs it.  There might not be a perfect moment, but if she trusts you and you see an opening, maybe you could say something along the lines of, if you're really stressed out and struggling right now, then why not try to get some professional help to get you through this rough patch, if there's even a slight chance that you might feel a little better?  Professionals have dealt with these sorts of issues before, and there might be some therapies or medications that might work well for you.  Don't you owe it to yourself to try to feel better?  This has been a tough year for you, maybe you need a little extra help to get through it?  Maybe now is the perfect time to try something different?

Anyway, it sounds like you're a super stepmom and very empathetic.  I hope things start to turn around for your family.  It's so hard when dysfunction rules the household.

[GaGrl]

I believe language is important, and if there were some share language that could be used, that might help to flag her before the situation deteriorates. For example, she calls her there hilarious "spells" -- can you use that language or DBT language like dysregulation.

Darn auto-correct. I meant "calls her dysregulations 'spells'." (They certainly aren't hilarious!)

[livednlearned]

Josie, I think in some ways it's harder when it's your bio child. There is so much in the filing cabinet to reference when a dysregulation begins and the black/white thinking can be shocking as you quite suddenly become the bad guy.

5 hours after leaving the rental house SD27 wanted to talk to H on the phone and when he called it was a minute into the conversation before he was in hot water over a misperception. From my eavesdropping perspective, it is easier to imagine the emotions like a big wave passing through -- the actual content is like debris in the water -- whereas for H he is in the deep end with her trying not to get pulled under. I agree it sounds like you did really well and followed your instincts, and DD was able to communicate even if she had to do so under her own duress.

We have special needs kids -- having this kind of labile emotion profile is a painful way to go through life, not to mention we have to learn skills that are not intuitive and must be learned.

I know SD27 has been in therapy, but can you refresh me on whether she has done any DBT?

She's in therapy but I'm not sure what kind. I know she sees a T who does CBT among other things with her, and between H and the T there is a lot of redirect to mindful breathing. It seems therapy is about addressing anxiety and depression.

My sister-in-law (who SD27 leans on) texted H yesterday. The narrative circulating about our trip appears to be that SD30 got mad at SD27 for reasons SD27 does not understand.

I like your suggestion to use DBT language and skills with SD27, to help model behaviors. I've started watching DBT for families with Alan Fruzetti. It's a lot about how to not make it worse which I think SD30 is actually fairly good at, minus the part where she has normal emotions to aggressive interactions (like her words and tone of voice being a bit out of sync).

H is adamant that we won't be doing another family retreat but who knows. Next summer SD27 is planning to get married so we'll be dealing with a whole other level of BPD (SD27's mom, for one).

Meanwhile, there's been an uptick in late-night texts from SD27. Last night H got a series of texts and he closed his eyes and did mindful breathing himself.

Texting is nowhere near the level from before SD27 met her fiance but definitely higher than average compared to the last few years. My gut tells me she is fighting with her fiance so H is now in play.

I decided to not reach out to SD30 to provide support. Maybe one day it will come up naturally, at her request.

[jaded7]

Really fascinating thread, and so well laid out LandL, and other respondents.

I will read through again in the morning to help contribute

but all this reminds me that I grew up in a household LIKE THIS. I completely forgot that. How, I do not know.

My brother was like this....he would go completely off the rails angry, argumentative, becoming almost in a fugue-like state with a strange look on his face, very impervious to facts or pleadings to calm down. It was like a freight train that
got moving and could not be stopped. I could see/sense when the switch had been flipped.

He would storm around the house, slam doors, get in the car and spin the tires pulling out of the driveway, etc. Nobody did anything about it, and it was always MY fault or why can't you two get along? And it was always triggered by something very innocuous said to him....about being late for something (which he always was and still is), really really loud at the table (we'd ask to be more quiet) or anything that could be perceived as a criticism.

And I now REMEMBER that he was diagnosed with BPD when he was a younger adult.

What the heck, how could I not remember all of this.

I'll start a new thread on that, so not looking for input on it here. I will try to contribute something in the morning to this great thread. I just want to thank you all, this really helps me with MY healing. 

[GaGrl]

Again, the language and naming g of behaviors can be so important.

I remember when I first had a conversation with my stepdaughter wherein I actually said I thought her mother's situation was mental illness. Mind you, the Ex had been arrested three times for DV, destruction of private property, discharging a firearm, and a few other legal issues. My SD seemed relieved that someone was actually naming her mother's behaviors.

[GaGrl]

Again, the language and naming of behaviors can be so important.

I remember when I first had a conversation with my stepdaughter wherein I actually said I thought her mother's situation was mental illness. Mind you, the Ex had been arrested three times for DV, destruction of private property, discharging a firearm, and a few other legal issues. My SD seemed relieved that someone was actually naming her mother's behaviors.

[needPeace]

try to remember not to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) because that feeds the fire.  I try to give time and space. That might be leaving the room, going for a walk or starting a mindless task (like ironing or straightening up a room). If they follow me in search of a fight, I might say, there’s nothing that I can say that will make it better right now, and I’ll leave the room again. Maybe I’ll say, I’m going for a walk and you can come if you want, knowing that they won’t. If it’s late at night I might take a relaxing bath. Anyway, doing something physical, simple and mindless (walking, cleaning, bathing) can help calm ME down and keep me from blowing up myself. I’ve found that there is no use arguing or using logic during periods of dysregulation.

Thank you for this. I never heard of JADE before.   And good to know that walking away and doing what I can to not get myself disregulated is key. 

[Pook075]

A few quick suggestions.

First, it's important to focus on where the episodes are coming from.  It wasn't the hike or what people were currently doing.  It wasn't her sister or you or someone else.  It wasn't even dehydration or being tired (although that could be a factor).

The problem was disordered thinking.

Where does disordered thinking come from?  Well, we know those answers- it's a fear of abandonment, low self esteem, low self worth.  Here's a gal that's a self proclaimed hiker that couldn't hike as well as the non-hikers.  That's a definite hit to anyone's self esteem.  And if everyone is making excuses for her struggling (you're just tired, you're dehydrated), then you're pointing out what she already knows....she's out of shape. 

Which in her mind, means she's worthless....a failure.

So how do we counter that?  Again, it's not about the hike or the water or the sister, etc.  Anything can set someone with BPD off for a million different things.  But it all stems from one or two basic human needs....feeling needed and appreciated.

The answer is to listen to the rants, the tantrums, and then relate to feeling that way.  To show support and love, regardless of what you're receiving.  That allows the moment of panic to pass.

Now, if she was going after her sister, then I would have asked to talk to her outside...one on one.  And I'd ask her to open up, to help me understand what's happening.  Then I'd listen as much as i could stand, show empathy, and just love on her until the rage subsides.

Afterwards, you get back to your weekend like nothing ever happened.

Because what typically happens is someone with BPD explodes, everyone feels awkward, and that awkwardness adds to the paranoia.  It's pouring gasoline on the fire, so to speak, and letting tensions grow instead of just snuffing the fire out.  BPD's run on feelings, so if nobody wants to be in the room with her, well duh...it hurts her feelings even more.  It doesn't take words to express that, body language is more than enough (especially with a dysregulated BPD who misreads things to spot abandonment whether it's there or not).

Make sense?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

Pook, that makes total sense.  My diagnosed stepdaughter would blow up in a situation like the hike.  Let's say that she couldn't keep up, even though being athletic was historically part of her identity.  Falling behind might invalidate her persona and trigger her, feeding her sense of inferiority vis-a-vis her siblings.  Then her perpetually negative thinking will take over and spiral--the hike is stupid, she's a loser, and it's unfair.  She can't stand even to share the same mountain air and trail with her siblings.  It's not fair that they have jobs, and boyfriends/girlfriends, and that they graduated when she didn't, and that they seem so cheerful all the time.  Her parents are delighted to hear her siblings' news, sucking all the attention away from her.  Once again, she's worthless, hopeless, and a wreck.  But she can't admit it, because it's just too painful.  So she'll devolve, and start to bring up ancient slights, and blame others for making her life terrible.  She'll get mean, and then she'll cry in rage.  She'll storm off and scream, leave me alone, and she'll cut everyone out.  She'd probably rather take an Uber than share a car with the family who ruined her life.  In her thinking, disappearing is the proper punishment for all the family's wrongs against her.

Even if you try to ask her gently, what's going on, she won't tell you.  She'll scream in out-of-control rage.  She doesn't really know either, because her thinking is distorted and extremely negative.  There's no convincing her of anything when she's like this.  Maybe you have better luck with a conversation.  But in my stepdaughter's case, I think she's so distraught and upset at herself for losing control once again, yet another thing to be shameful about, that she's better off if she gets time and space to recover.  After all, that's what she usually asks for--Leave me alone! (shouted as she storms off).  Or a much more colorful variation that I can't write here.  And then she'll typically block everyone, maybe out of hatred, maybe out of embarrassment, maybe in a misguided attempt to punish us, or maybe all three.  She won't allow you to talk to her until she's ready.  It might be hours, or weeks, or months if it's her siblings.

I think the siblings, just by existing, are too triggering for her, because she's jealous and feels inferior.  Indeed maybe she feels "abandoned," because they are good at adulting, and she still feels like a child, a failure.  If a fear of "abandonment" includes feeling behind, literally (in a hike) and figuratively, then that fits the description of my stepdaughter's plight.  This is why I think it's too difficult for her to share space with her siblings right now, until she builds up her self confidence.  And trying to talk to her when she's raging tends to backfire, because she can't hear anything, or even stand the fact that she blew up over a trifling thing, which she can't even identify properly in the moment.  Or maybe she can identify it, but she's too embarrassed to talk about it, since underneath she's seething all the time, so she'll invent something later, something convoluted and which doesn't match your recollection of events.  To give you a sense, she might say her brother shoved her off the trail and tried to assault her, when what he did was tap her shoulder and offer her water.  She invents an "assault" because that's how she feels, like a victim in every situation, and she needs to justify to herself her over-the-top anger on the hike.  To my stepdaughter, nearly everyone is bullying and/or assaulting her, in her opinion.  That's what she feels.

[Pook075]

Even if you try to ask her gently, what's going on, she won't tell you.  She'll scream in out-of-control rage.  She doesn't really know either, because her thinking is distorted and extremely negative. 

Think through those few sentences.  She's freaking out, she won't talk rationally, she doesn't even know what the heck is going on.

What do you do in those situations?

Or let me ask in a different way.  You're a parent, what did you do when the kids were infants and started screaming at the top of their lungs?

Sure, you checked for a fever.  You looked for scratches or bug bites.  You checked the diaper and tried to get the baby to eat.  But the kid is still screaming....what do you do?

The correct answer for the baby is also the correct answer for anyone with BPD.

You speak in calming tones, you show love and support, you don't talk out the "facts" because in the moment, they don't matter.  The only goal is to calm the person down and make them feel safe (or heard).  So you listen to the screaming, and you counter with compassion...it has to suck to feel that way and we can absolutely relate to what its like to be in a hopeless rage.

There's no convincing her of anything when she's like this. 

Again, the only convincing that should be happening is, "I care about you CC43 and I'm here to listen.  What can I do to help?"

Maybe it doesn't get through, but that's okay.  You continue to show love and support....without losing it yourself....until the moment passes.  You repeat the compassionate statements, "It has to be horrible to feel like that, I love you and I want to help.  Please talk to me and let me be here for you."

Do this one time...just once...and you'll gain a ton of trust and respect.  Maybe in the next blowout, she comes to you to rant because hey, you actually do care and you're on her side.  Not that you agree with anything she's saying...that's all crap...but you show her that you're hurting for her and want to be a safe place to calm down and re-center.

I did this with both my BPD ex-wife and BPD kid over the past few years, and literally everything changed.  Neither of them have an ounce of anger towards me and when things fall apart, I'm usually their first call.  Because no matter how disillusioned or off the rails one of them are, I can have them speaking to me calmly in a few minutes.

Why?  How?  It's not a superpower or an ultra-advanced technique, I just convinced both of them that I love them and I'm on their side.  Once I made that switch to always lead with empathy and compassion, things became incredibly easy and BPD does not dictate my life anymore.

Now, I want to be honest...I'll still get cussed out from my 25 year old kid occasionally when she's having a terrible day.  But even with that, if I can have the strength not to fight back, I can talk her off the ledge in a matter of minutes and we can have a pretty normal conversation.  I absolutely can't comment on any of the "drama of the day" until I get her centered and calm though.

Make sense?

[CC43]

Pook, you are amazing. I will try that. Even if I think she’ll storm off, as she usually does.

[Pook075]

Pook, you are amazing. I will try that. Even if I think she’ll storm off, as she usually does.

Sure, maybe she does storm off.  But you're setting the tone of leading with compassion and it does get noticed.  Maybe she storms off 5 times, 10 times, but eventually she'll actually recognize...hey, CC43 isn't against me here.

At that point, it's like a light switch flips in their minds.  Call it being painted white or whatever, but once it happens, the rage passes and you can have normal conversations once again.

For me, it started with my BPD kid making a statement in front of relatives that she was a lousy kid that put us through hell.  And yeah, that's 100% true.  But the way she said it spoke to my heart, and I realized that I couldn't hang onto that anger any longer...it didn't benefit anyone.  So I wrote her a short letter telling her that I forgave her for everything and I was letting it go, wiping the slate clean.

Shortly thereafter, we had a conversation and it was shockingly normal.  She showed me a journal of hers from middle school that said the thing she wanted most in the world was for her daddy to love her.  I was shocked...blown away.  But it makes sense, we all hear that people w/ BPD are the worst to the people they love the most.  And our relationship completely changed from that day forward; we talked and she actually listened, took my advice to heart.

We've had a few blow-outs since then, particularly when she was highly dysregulated and off her meds, but it wasn't scorched earth type of stuff.  I simply said that it wasn't okay, she couldn't talk to me that way and blame me for her own problems.  I got the silent treatment for a few weeks but bridges weren't burned....I stayed white while she pouted.  And I simply waited for her to reach out again...without bringing up the prior episode because I didn't have to.  She didn't apologize but I made it crystal clear at the time of her meltdown that a serious boundary had been crossed.  She knew that and respected it once she reached out again.

Today, our relationship is normal...the same is true with my ex wife as well.  I talked to both of them today and we just had regular conversations about our lives and what's going on.  Truthfully, it still surprises me and I catch myself "bracing for impact" whenever one of them calls me, but it turns out that there's no reason for that anymore.

The main thing here, the reason for all the change, was the simple fact that I made sure both of them know that I love them and I'm always on their side.  Those are the last words I say on every call with them- I love you and I'm here if you need anything.  And now that they believe it, that's enough to completely change the BPD dynamic.  I'm an advocate instead of an enemy, so they can actually let me in and talk about real problems without all the drama.

I hope that helps!

[livednlearned]

First, it's important to focus on where the episodes are coming from.  It wasn't the hike or what people were currently doing.  It wasn't her sister or you or someone else.  It wasn't even dehydration or being tired (although that could be a factor).

The problem was disordered thinking.

Where does disordered thinking come from?  Well, we know those answers- it's a fear of abandonment, low self esteem, low self worth.

This runs counter to insight we gathered recently. For families out there like ours, the info below has helped us make sense of and hopefully respond more effectively to SD27's behaviors

We came across the terms "neuro-crash" and "bio-storms" that have helped us make sense of part I of SD27's dysregulations. The difference between a neuro-crash and a tantrum is that a neuro-crash is not something the individual is necessarily in control of. That's how it looked from the outside, that SD27 could not just "walk it off." A tantrum typically ends when the individual's needs are met.

What is a neuro-crash?

Neuro-crashes happen when a person’s neurological system (brain) becomes overwhelmed with stress to the point that his or her normal coping mechanisms fail. This means that the person becomes unable to calm down or self-regulate his or her emotions and behaviors.

There is often a “tipping point” or a series of triggers and micro-traumas throughout the day that add up and eventually cause the neuro-crash.

What does a neuro-crash look like?

Though neuro-crashes are internal events (something that happens on the “inside” of the individual), they often result in visible or external behaviors.The way a neuro-crash looks can vary greatly depending on the person’s age, physical ability, usual temperament, environment, and typical communication style.

Who experiences neuro-crashes?

Anyone can experience a neuro-crash, but they are most common in “4S” individuals, or people with “super sensitive sensory systems.” This includes people on the autism spectrum, those with sensory processing disorder, highly sensitive people, or young children who cannot yet self-regulate their emotions and reactions.

What causes a neuro-crash?

Neuro-crashes can be caused by a singular stressful event or by the combination of a series of neurological stresses over a period of time. Some common neuro-crash triggers include:

*Autistic “masking,” or experiencing difficulty during interactions with neurotypical individuals
*Being directly exposed to others who are overwhelmed, upset, or in pain
*Sensory overload: bright or flashing lights, loud sounds, overstimulating smells, large crowds, etc.
*Inability to communicate needs or have needs adequately met
*Violations of control and autonomy: invading the person’s personal space or not respecting his/her “no”
*Decreased environmental predictability or changes to comforting routines
*“Bio-storms”: having to deal with a variety of personal or health issues all at once (gastrointestinal or dietary issues, sleep problems, difficulty with autonomic systems and regulating arousal, medication reactions, hormones, headaches, etc.)

That means doing a better job as a family at recognizing signs. SD27 was dehydrated, hormonal, tired, hot, and out of sorts. Her BPD makes her exquisitely sensitive to any sense of abandonment so many of the things we do next time have to be put in place prior to the trip.

For one, we'll shorten the trip. We seem to have these crashes on the 4th day.
Two, create waves. SD27/fiance first wave, overlap with SD30 in second wave, etc.
Three, scrap schedules other than breakfast at _____, dinner at ______.

As for the actual meltdown, feedback seems to be along the lines of what we tried, which was to co-regulate emotions. Although I think it would've been even better if H took her aside to do some boxed breathing together outside. SD27 has a tendency when she's winding up to want to stay in the pack but H does sometimes have influence. He found it tricky this time because SD27 now has a fiance who, to be fair, was doing a pretty good job with the co-regulation.

Other tips seems to be (for SD30, who was the target) either "I'm not regulated enough right now to discuss this" and if SD27 can be collaborative, "How do you feel about talking when I'm more regulated."

As for me, I wish I had said something, mostly because of my own principles. Yes, SD27 is special needs but she also cannot be ripping people's heads off. I wish I had said, "SD27, you said something so insightful an hour ago that really impressed me -- this and this and this and this (all biostorm stuff). Let's look at what we can do to address those. Do you have Advil? Want to be tucked in on the couch? Can we bring you tea? Anyone see a hot water bottle in their bathrooms?

I mean, she's going to be center of attention no matter what during these crashes and I know for some BPD people this might not work, or it might be manipulated, in which case for us we would encourage her to go to her room with her fiance if she's feeling ill or tired or hormonal.

My question isn't so much about how to handle a dysregulation 1:1, it's more about what happens in a family dynamic and what we learned from this event is that it requires pre-planning, paying attention to early warning signs, and then focusing on regulating SD27 as a group so she doesn't single one person out.

Work in progress for sure.

Next summer is her wedding and we're already trying to apply some of these principles so that even if she doesn't have a good time, the rest of us will be ok, which does have a positive impact on SD27's experience even if she experienced a crash. 

[Sancho]

Hi Livednlearned
I was thinking about your post and my ideas were exactly what you have worked out and expressed in your last post here. Thanks for the neuro-crash info too!

When it happens it becomes about enough time/space for the brain to re- regulate, and in a situation with people around/plans etc the triggers just keep coming to keep a state of dysregulation.

So shorter, overlap, less structure etc - brilliant!

[livednlearned]

Hi Livednlearned
I was thinking about your post and my ideas were exactly what you have worked out and expressed in your last post here. Thanks for the neuro-crash info too!

When it happens it becomes about enough time/space for the brain to re- regulate, and in a situation with people around/plans etc the triggers just keep coming to keep a state of dysregulation.

So shorter, overlap, less structure etc - brilliant!

Thank you Sancho  

It's affirming to hear that you came to a similar conclusion about how to manage these dysregs.

One other piece that we're working through is to not take it personally per se, while also paying attention to what happened.

During a dysreg different family members can say and do certain things that others can't, we notice. H has more latitude in what he can say and how he says it when SD27 is in a dysreg. Probably because SD27 is more accustomed to him in a parent/soothing role.

Whereas SD27 sees SD30 as a competitor for scarce resources. The dysregs are more open and meaner and seem to have no brakes when they are fully underway. I get a version of that but in a more covert way. All family members are targets of passive and covert aggressions and everyone is trying to wrangle "compassionate" boundaries with different degrees of effectiveness.

It's kind of a light bulb moment to realize we may actually be able to talk about this as a family without it feeling like bad triangulation. There are skills available to share, it's not just one person feeling targeted and at a loss what to do, we all want more or less the same thing.

Wish us luck at SD27's wedding next summer  

[kells76]

Each family situation is different, especially when it comes to each family member's desire to participate effectively, ability to participate effectively, and "gas in the tank" for participation in addressing the dysregulation. Some families have been really wounded, I think, and prioritizing the non-BPD family members' well-being (everyone "taking a break" elsewhere during the pwBPD's dysregulation) may come first for those groups, and may be the "least bad" option for those families.

It sounds like your family has some key differences. One is that SD27 also has autistic traits driving her behaviors. Another is that it sounds like most-to-all family members have some interest in making family life more livable, from curiosity about "huh, there's definitely something going on with her", through "I'm ready to jump in face to face if that helps". A third is that it also sounds like as difficult as SD27 can be, there are no permanently burned bridges yet -- she has enough connection with all family members and they with her, that there's an investment in supporting her getting stable during those times. Finally, it seems like most family members have some acceptance that she has "[emotional] special needs" and so can depersonalize to some extent, and also frame it less as "she's a purposefully cruel and manipulative person" and more as "she struggles with what's effectively a disability/recurring health condition". If I'm off base with any of those assumptions, let me know!

It's kind of a light bulb moment to realize we may actually be able to talk about this as a family without it feeling like bad triangulation. There are skills available to share, it's not just one person feeling targeted and at a loss what to do, we all want more or less the same thing.

By "as a family" I'm guessing you mean everyone besides SD27 (at least at first)? Or including her somehow?

Do you think you will have to take the lead on scheduling/initiating that conversation?

As you think about each family member's personality, do you think most to all members would do well with structured roles: kind of like, "OK, when X happens, Jane will be in this role, John will do ABC, and Joe will back up Jane"? Sometimes planning ahead of time and getting everyone's buy-in, vs freestyling in the moment, can help in crisis.

I wonder if it's like having a child in the family with severe but unpredictable medical needs. You have to have a plan ahead of time with contingencies for who's around, and as much as it'd be "easier" not to have the child in the family, or not to drop everything to focus on the medical needs, it's just kind of part of being that unique family.