SELF-AWARE: Are we co-dependent?

[united for now]

BPD is a mental illness. Those who suffer from it have a severe fear of abandonment - no respect for other peoples boundaries - poor self control - are extremely emotionally reactive - and can be very needy and draining on those who care for them.

It's easy to get sucked into playing the care taker role in an attempt to protect them from themselves. To take on more responsibility than you should.

It's also easy to change your responses in an attempt to prevent any blow ups. To walk on eggshells in an effort to keep the peace.

Both of these responses come at a price to us - the nons.
We wind up spending an inordinate amount of time thinking about THEM and not thinking about ourselves. We put our needs and our desires on the back burner, hoping that eventually we will be repaid for our kindness and thoughtfulness. We suffer from the opposite of our BPD loved ones - we suffer from co-dependency.

Dysfunctional families do not acknowledge that problems exist. They don’t talk about them or confront them. As a result, family members learn to repress emotions and disregard their own needs. They become “survivors.” They develop behaviors that help them deny, ignore, or avoid difficult emotions. They detach themselves. They don’t talk. They don’t touch. They don’t confront. They don’t feel. They don’t trust. The identity and emotional development of the members of a dysfunctional family are often inhibited

Attention and energy focus on the family member who is ill or addicted. The co-dependent person typically sacrifices his or her needs to take care of a person who is sick. When co-dependents place other people’s health, welfare and safety before their own, they can lose contact with their own needs, desires, and sense of self.

http://www.nmha.org/go/codependency

Do you see yourself doing this?

[Lucky Jim]

Sure, I've walked on eggshells and been a caretaker -- a classic codependent -- although less so since learning about BPD.  Now my ubpdw complains that I'm selfish because I put myself first, at least some of the time.  I respond that if I don't take care of myself I can't take care of her and our children.

I think we nons need to carve out space for ourselves.  I turn off my cell phone and won't take calls from my W when I need a break from her.

Last weekend I went to Vermont, by myself, to see some old college friends.  My W complained about it and used the usual obligation and guilt (not fear) to get me to stay, but I went anyway.  I have to, for my own sanity.

Once again, UFN, you have hit the nail on the head!  Thanks for bringing up this topic, Ukeplayer

[GPR]

Obviously yes.  

Question:  Is there any point in explaining what your needs are to your partner, or is it better to just do it and deal with reactions through validation and other tools?  And what if it's a need that has to come from your partner?

I have this horrible urge to want to explain and talk about needs, actions, etc..   I don't know if it's co-dependency or if it's just my personality.  I can't just do it, I feel like I always need to explain why.

[united for now]

I have this horrible urge to want to explain and talk about needs, actions, etc..   I don't know if it's co-dependency or if it's just my personality.  I can't just do it, I feel like I always need to explain why.

Some possible reasons are
* That you are trying to get her to accept your needs and actions. To put her stamp of approval on it.
* Your need to justify and explain comes from some insecurity on if you should have these "rights" or not.
* You fear her reaction so you phrase them as requests instead of stating them as requirements.

Can you think of more?

[GPR]

I have this horrible urge to want to explain and talk about needs, actions, etc..   I don't know if it's co-dependency or if it's just my personality.  I can't just do it, I feel like I always need to explain why.

Some possible reasons are
* That you are trying to get her to accept your needs and actions. To put her stamp of approval on it.
* Your need to justify and explain comes from some insecurity on if you should have these "rights" or not.
* You fear her reaction so you phrase them as requests instead of stating them as requirements.

Can you think of more?

You're right on the button so far. 

Maybe I've gotten so co-dependent, that I look for some re-assurance that it really is a need for me.

[angelicsilouette]

Do you see yourself doing this?

I often catch myself in a fight/give-up cycle. I'm the fighter in my relationship. I'm the one who wants to rage and talk through the aftermath. I'm the one who is actively hurting (I'm sure he is too but he has numbed himself emotionally and dissociates a lot). So I walk on eggshells for a while because I get tired of fighting. Then all the little somethings will build and I'll blow up and confront everything and everyone feels bad so I start the process over.

I'm too strong to be co-dependent and too co-dependent to be strong.

[DragoN]

This is really interesting.

Dysfunctional families do not acknowledge that problems exist.

I was the black sheep lifting the rug and letting the roaches out...got me in lots of trouble

They don’t talk about them or confront them.

Confrontation...was not a problem for me. 

As a result, family members learn to repress emotions and disregard their own needs.

Ooooh...not this member of the crew...

They become “survivors.” They develop behaviors that help them deny, ignore, or avoid difficult emotions.

I survive...because if not...the alternative is well..not an option.

They detach themselves.

From my uBPDh ..yes...and family for the most part. Healthier that way.

They don’t talk.

My husband would claim otherwise...but he give 1 hour monologues and calls it a discussion..  ?

They don’t touch.

*poke*

They don’t confront.

Depends now...is it worth the energy or not?

They don’t feel.

I Feel...too much.

They don’t trust.

Trust is earned.

The identity and emotional development of the members of a dysfunctional family are often inhibited

My FOO is a little hairball...that's for sure. I'm one of the *fuzzies*

Attention and energy focus on the family member who is ill or addicted. The co-dependent person typically sacrifices his or her needs to take care of a person who is sick.

Physically sick...maybe. But not if it was of their own doing. Mentally ill, I spend inordinate amounts of Time at FtF...learning to unlearn some very bad habits

When co-dependents place other people’s health, welfare and safety before their own, they can lose contact with their own needs, desires, and sense of self.

Nope...my sexy green skin is way too valuable...so is my Peace.

[dados76]

yeah.. it does go against my instincts.. to just let him deal.. i learned to be really codependent.. w/family.. and im unlearning that stuff now.. some days better than other.. helps that R can usually see it.. and is more annoyed by it than just being direct..

i kind of.. get the cycle.. both kids in our house.. even tho theyre little.. know that R is mentally ill.. tho specifics are hard to explain.. but they know sometimes hes sad for no reason.. and its not their fault.. he just has a lot going on in his head.. and everybody needs time outs sometimes.. even grownups

[JustSaying]

Is there any point in explaining what your needs are to your partner

No.

At least that is the conclusion I've reached. I can't even get follow-through on the simplest things, so I don't try anymore on the larger or deeper stuff. If we think in terms of Maslow's hierarchy, the "needs" range from the mundane to the ethereal. (Not to suggest any expertise on this...just personal thoughts.) At the mundane level, I've tried, and failed, to share things like a preference for a birthday/Christmas gift or what items are needed from the grocery store for the dinner I'm cooking, so what hope is there for more complex or conceptual needs? What comes back is exactly the opposite, almost as if it was a passive-aggressive response. Maybe I'm a crappy communicator. Yet, D12 has been quite able to ask my preferences (bless her heart), TAKE her mom to the store, point out the right item, and get it.

It is comical at times. They were going to the store and I asked D12 to look for something for me, just to give her a little task and let her have some fun. It was simple--a pair of pants with a phone pocket and no velcro. That's it. DW heard me talking to D12 and had to know what it was about and why I wouldn't include her, etc. Repeated the item and what I did/didn't want. No surprise to me, it turned into a big phone call drama from the store about this pair and that pair and price and color and everything else. After all that, DW brings home a pair with no phone pocket and a pair with velcro closures. D12 mouths, "Sorry, Dad, I tried." DW then got annoyed with me that I didn't intend to keep them.

Sorry for long, stupid story, but I just had to tell it somewhere. It's a metaphor for the rest of needs. The story repeats itself with any other thing that comes up, so it should be no surprise that anymore I just say, "No thanks, don't need anything." Too much drama, and need not satisfied anyway. For mundane stuff, I just do it. Cook for D12 and me, cause recipes would be (intentionally?) screwed up. Do own laundry because simple, normal operations will be done opposite. So if this silliness defines the day, what luck do you think there is with needs higher on the "archy" Maslow created? Health, Love, Esteem, Morality? Tried repeatedly, been disappointed repeatedly. Have pretty much given up because it's better than banging my head against the wall.

The thing is, most of that doesn't need to depend on her. I can find satisfaction from work, one kind of love (acceptance/belonging) from friends, another kind (familial) from my daughter, morality from other sources, etc. Diversity keeps you relying too much on one source to satisfy your needs (not talking about infidelity, just creating a balance). Certainly that doesn't cover everything, I wish I had a marriage that didn't require such parsing of needs, but that is the reality.

These last few days, and as I read what I write, I ask myself why I'd stay in a situation--work, marriage, circle of friends, whatever--that meets so few needs. Well, I can't change it to meet more needs; I can only change what I do. Leaving would create more problems (today) than staying, so for my needs, I try to diversify. It's kept me sane to no longer expect something from someone who cannot provide it.

[GPR]

I handle all of my own needs as far as those little mundane things too.  But as far as the emotional/physical/mental needs that a spouse typical satisfies for the other, I don't think I could continue for long without them.  I would either end up divorced or insane.  Who knows, maybe both.

When it comes to things like attention, respect, affection, sex, etc.  A lot of people on here say things like "You just to realize it's not personal.  It's just the disorder.  I've learned to not even try or not even care about it anymore.  It's just not worth the headache."...  to me that's not an answer, at least it's not one I'm willing to accept. 

[JustSaying]

I would either end up divorced or insane.

I'm not divorced, so maybe I'm... <g>

When it comes to things like attention, respect, affection, sex, etc.  A lot of people on here say things like "You just to realize it's not personal.  It's just the disorder.  I've learned to not even try or not even care about it anymore.  It's just not worth the headache."...  to me that's not an answer, at least it's not one I'm willing to accept.

I don't disagree. If I knew what was involved ahead of time, I hope I wouldn't choose this for myself (though, to the extent that it allowed me to meet my daughter and experience all of those joys, I wouldn't change it...it's moot, of course, seeing as time travel's not yet an option). I guess at the moment I don't see a 100% solution. If I leave and set out on a quest for "attention, respect, affection, sex, etc." then I will experience major losses in other areas. I don't see a way to, at the moment, have everything I want, so I have to evaluate the alternate imperfect scenarios.

I'm trying real hard to not get to the point where I don't care for or yearn for those things. I don't want to be that jaded. So those things matter, but they most likely aren't things I'll find with dw, and I want to be grounded in reality, so I don't want to waste more time hoping she'll become something she's not and probably never was.

What scares me more than not ever finding those things is wondering if my judgement is so bad that I wouldn't ever recognize them if I saw them. For some reason, I chose the involvement I did. I saw what I wanted to see. Unless I figure out why I made the choices I did, I'm just as likely to repeat the same dysfunctional choice as to improve on it. I've only started reading and learning about BPD, but I do wonder what it is about us (me) that led us (me) to be attracted to this relationship. If I left, what's to say I wouldn't be drawn to the same sort of wounded soul all over again?

Until I figure that out, I'm thinking of leaving attention, respect, affection, intimacy, etc as a recognized, but unmet, need, and hope that drives me to action of some sort. Nature abhors a vacuum, and un-met needs have a way of nagging at us until we resolve them. Rather than squelch the need, and fall into the "I've learned to not even care" malaise you astutely mentioned, I think I'll try to keep it alive and hope it motivates me. I no longer have the expectation though that the needs will be met by her.

[dados76]

When it comes to things like attention, respect, affection, sex, etc.  A lot of people on here say things like "You just to realize it's not personal.  It's just the disorder.  I've learned to not even try or not even care about it anymore.  It's just not worth the headache."...  to me that's not an answer, at least it's not one I'm willing to accept.

of course.. depends on the person.. everybody here can only talk from their own experience.. and thats all different.. for me.. not getting those things from a partner would be a dealbreaker..

.. and im still here

[flyingdutchman]

I'm guilty of this for sure, still do it I think.  I find it very hard though to distinguish between what is being kind and thoughtful.  I just bought her a needlecraft training course, so she can use the sewing machine  I bought her a few years back (which has gathered dust).  I need to drive her 300 miles return trip at the expense of my open uni course that I am now 3 weeks behind with reading and assignments.  to what extent do you draw the line being kind and thinking of yourself?  (she has now refused to go on the course as I asked her to make a small contribution to the fuel to get there and back). 

[jen]

This is such a good topic - the searching for my needs to be met got me into such a lot of trouble and mess more of a mess than I was before I tried searching - desperate for love you know the kind that is pure love for my wellbeing, for me to have peace, to feel save, warm, secure, loved - not idolised or anything like that.  For me last yr I started searching in all the wrong places, not knowing what was wrong with me or where to get this emptyness filled from - church? all the different religions I looked into, I wanted to know about the bible about god, someone to help me...the whole me?So I went on the internet and joined a chat room - pple to talk to I suppose what I wanted was like I have not got with this site but the chat room pple were not the kind that I wanted but I didn't know what I wanted.  Attention yes I got that, but for a price - men tricks time and time again into talking about sex, I wanted someone to listen to me, hear my voice, understand my pain, understand my life - friends said just leave if you're not happy - just leave? if it were so simple we would all have gone wouldn't we?  I got caught up in a virtual world still searching surely one of them wanted to look after me, I wanted to and still do want to scream out but what about me? how I feel? don't I count to anyone anywhere?  So I gratified - I am now ashamed, guilt ridden, the H found out about all of it - he tracked every conversation on the MSN but I didn't try to hide cos I didn't know or understand what I was involved with.  I gave my MOb number out to two men - surely they wanted to rescue me and take away the pain - no COS h FOUND OUT!  He forgave me he understood I was looking for HIM that he had neglected me - in future he would look after me - no - in future he has thorown it back at every opportunity so now I am worse off than before just that now my girls thik I had an affair or something cos He told them about it all!  How stupid have I been?  Just thought I would share my darker side with you..

[August]

Yep this is what it is all about, getting ourselves back. I really had a passion for life and after meeting my bpdw I began to loose it. I was doing everything wrong. I was not going to let go and fought her every step of the way. In the end I was frustrated, angry and too tired to do the things I loved. I figured out one thing that worked for me, I just decided to do what I loved to do and told her you can come or stay but I am going. She was so insecure that leaving the door open for her seemed to ease that insecurity. Sometimes she would come with me and I had to tell her not to be negitive and critical and ruin what I was doing. Now she knows the drill, and usually does not go with me to do my passions but I leave the door open. As far as intamacy I have not got that figured out but we are a lot closer now that the rages and stress have died down. Great topic!

[united for now]

Here are some things to think about...
Do you see yourself on that list?

Questionnaire To Identify Signs Of Co-dependency

This condition appears to run in different degrees, whereby the intensity of symptoms are on a spectrum of severity, as opposed to an all or nothing scale. Please note that only a qualified professional can make a diagnosis of co-dependency; not everyone experiencing these symptoms suffers from co-dependency.

1. Do you keep quiet to avoid arguments?

2. Are you always worried about others’ opinions of you?

3. Have you ever lived with someone with an alcohol or drug problem?

4. Have you ever lived with someone who hits or belittles you?

5. Are the opinions of others more important than your own?

6. Do you have difficulty adjusting to changes at work or home?

7. Do you feel rejected when significant others spend time with friends?

8. Do you doubt your ability to be who you want to be?

9. Are you uncomfortable expressing your true feelings to others?

10. Have you ever felt inadequate?

11. Do you feel like a “bad person” when you make a mistake?

12. Do you have difficulty taking compliments or gifts?

13. Do you feel humiliation when your child or spouse makes a mistake?

14. Do you think people in your life would go downhill without your constant efforts?

15. Do you frequently wish someone could help you get things done?

16. Do you have difficulty talking to people in authority, such as the police or your boss?

17. Are you confused about who you are or where you are going with your life?

18. Do you have trouble saying “no” when asked for help?

19. Do you have trouble asking for help?

20. Do you have so many things going at once that you can’t do justice to any of them?


http://www.nmha.org/go/codependency

[united for now]

This is also something to think about...

WE TEACH OTHER PEOPLE HOW TO TREAT US

In order for codependence to be part of any relationship, two things have to happen ~ the people-pleaser has to say yes a lot more often than no, and the other person has to not only accept this but also begin to expect it in the relationship. Once that dynamic is in place, it is difficult to break the cycle.

When you say yes consistently to another person, and when you accept any form of abuse as part of any of your relationships, you are essentially teaching the other people that it is all right for them to treat you that way. Although you might not be aware of it, you actually do have as much power and control as the other person does, because all of us can really only control ourselves.

It is only when you choose to give your power and control to another person that you begin to feel the sting of codependency, because the truth is that no one can disrespect you without your permission.

http://www.angelscommunity.com/EN/the_best_of_counsellor%27s_corner/recovering_from_codependency:_the_truth_about_people-pleasing/

We do have choices...

[August]

OK, out of the list I can relate to #1, 4, 20. 4&20 I use to, #1 I still do if I know that a response will eculate my ubpdw. I do know that I gave up some of the things I loved because doing them made things worse for me. I don't do that anymore. Are all nons prone to be co-dependent? I never thought of myself as one until I began to read about it in BPD literature. On the other hand I figure that with all the consessions I have made I must be.

[BPJ]

My girlfriend is BPD.  She has taken DBT..she works hard on being a better person.  I have some co-dependency tendencies so I appreciate being able to help someone.   Be their "KNight In shinning armour" as it were.  She thinks of me as "the perfect man" more often then not and that feeds my ego so much even I am satisfied.  When I become Mr. Evil.. my foot comes down and stuff hits the fan.  (My co-dependency shuts off)  Look in the dictionary under "Passive Agressive" if you want to see my picture.  But I use that passive time..the time of not talking to look at my own actions because I know I'm not perfect. 

Example:    She asks me a question.. I don't like it and don't answer. She goes ballistic.  I don't respect her, she says.  I know she's over the edge now.. it's part of her BPD..right?  Except, it was not nice of me to not answer her..sure she's over reacting as any bpd does...but I need to and do own up to my own part in it.  I have 'issues' too...she can't handle them.  None of us are perfect..I accept the fact that being with her means I... I have to be a better person.  I cannot be aggressive, I cannot get angry, I cannot take out my hard day on her, I cannot mope around the house, I have to learn to talk in a non judgemental way.  I have to be a better man.  When I am..I am "the perfect man" and while I know in my heart that I am not perfect..it fills a need in me to be appreciated. 

What do the rest of you get from your relationship with your bpd?  Cause if you weren't getting something...why are you still with them.  Sure they drive you mad..they are abusive..all that.  But what are you getting?  Is it the sex? The adoration that I admit I love?  The fact that someone needs you more then anyone else could who was not bpd?

I think we need to be honest with ourselves.  They fill a need in us.  Admit it to yourselves if no one else.  The secret, I think, is that we need to learn the same things they do.  That we have other needs that they can't fill either.  I know for a fact that I am in a relationship and that there are two people in that relationship that need to work on being a better person. 

Co-dependency is a mental illness as well.

[dados76]

Really really good questions BPJ.. something that comes up.. in all kinds of relationships.. weighing what you get v. what you give.. i totally relate to the knight in shining armor thing..or.. maybe knight in shining camaro?

What do the rest of you get from your relationship with your bpd?  Cause if you weren't getting something...why are you still with them.  Sure they drive you mad..they are abusive..all that.  But what are you getting?

my partner is.. crazy smart.. naturally a pretty patient teacher if he has a audience.. loves ideas.. abstract ideas.. taking stuff apart.. putting them together.. weve lead kind of similar lives.. mine isnt as extreme.. but similar kinda environment.. hes in dbt.. and therapy..and is really validating.. hes a very good listener.. for me.. i need validation.. or i get tired of putting energy into things.. and say f*ck it.. hes a really good validator..  really warm and so so funny.. similar sense of humor.. i laugh a lot w/him.. plus he does dishes and cleans

Is it the sex?

theres that too.. there is a lot of physical attraction there.. woof.. hed never say it.. but he looks d@mn good..

 

The adoration that I admit I love?

this too.. like all feelings.. he loves hard.. he gets so excited and enthusiastic.. and theres a lot of love..

The fact that someone needs you more then anyone else could who was not bpd?

he does need a lot of 'maintenance' .. so i do end up being needed more than other relationships.. hes also a few other things.. that make functioning kind of.. interesting sometimes..