I made every mistake in the book

[kc sunshine]

I wish I had been on this thread for the last few weeks, because I see that in our push-pull phase, I made every mistake in the book!

1) I wanted to talk about the relationship when we saw each other

2) I initiated texting

3) I stayed too long at her house (after she wanted me to go-- clingy)

4) I jumped at seeing her when she wanted to see me

ugh. I guess it was 50/50 anyway, but I can see that my behavior made our chances .05/99.5

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[kc sunshine]

But I guess if my instincts for what to do were so off in this period, I couldn't have made it for the long run... .super remorseful though!

[guy4caligirl]

But I guess if my instincts for what to do were so off in this period, I couldn't have made it for the long run... .super remorseful though!

Hi KC i see you're back , it happens just regroup and go at it again !

[whitebackatcha]

But I guess if my instincts for what to do were so off in this period, I couldn't have made it for the long run... .super remorseful though!

It's so hard when they make things so gamey. Try not to be too hard on yourself!

[livednlearned]

But I guess if my instincts for what to do were so off in this period, I couldn't have made it for the long run... .super remorseful though!

A lot of the skills learned here are not intuitive and even when we learn them, they take practice.

It sounds like your GF was diagnosed and did DBT?

How long since the two of you interacted? What usually happens when/if there has been a break-up before?

[kc sunshine]

Hi-- yes she was diagnosed and did DBT about 3 years ago (before we met). We last communicated yesterday with a shirt text exchange (I initiated it and she responded, and then I responded again and I didn't hear from her again.) My thought is that I shouldn't initiate any more contact until Xmas (and then maybe just do a quick call or text).

When there was a breakup before (last year from July-May) she would intermittently contact me but she was often very mad and was very much wanting me to change

so that we could be in a relationship together. sometimes she would contact me when she wanted physical closeness. I don't think she had any other relationships during that time.

This breakup feels very different because I think she is dating other people. Last week she contacted me because she missed me and wanted to talk. She also was upset (sad and mad) that I seemed to be doing well in our breakup. By the time our time to talk came around, she texted that "since this breakup seemed to be going better than our others, we shouldn't see each other." We ended up seeing each other but I got super clingy again . (Thus my saying I'm doing everything wrong!) Whew, so confusing.

But I guess if my instincts for what to do were so off in this period, I couldn't have made it for the long run... .super remorseful though!

A lot of the skills learned here are not intuitive and even when we learn them, they take practice.

It sounds like your GF was diagnosed and did DBT?

How long since the two of you interacted? What usually happens when/if there has been a break-up before?

[MapleBob]

Maybe it's not on you to do everything right, kc? She could do the right thing too. I think we all get a little too caught up in the "doing the right thing" game sometimes - did you do what was right for you?

[kc sunshine]

Yeah, I know-- but it seems like there really are right and wrong things to do in terms of the disorder, and I inadvertently did all the wrong things! I wish I had come to this board instead of the leaving board, because it really is different advice (NC vs. this mode of low key, non-triggering engagement).

[livednlearned]

Your most recent interaction was last week -- initially she was annoyed that you seemed to be doing ok. And then when you got together, things flipped for you, and you ended up feeling clingy. By clingy, do you mean that you let it be known you wanted to get back together? Asked her to forgive you? Begged to stay in contact, etc.? Can you break out what clingy means in this circumstance?

It does sound like a good plan to lay low right now and not contact her again for the time being, as you suggested. You already reached out and the ball is in her court. She knows you are receptive to her at the moment, and the last F2F interaction may have felt like too much, something she is processing at the moment.

How does validation work with her?

[MapleBob]

Yeah, I know-- but it seems like there really are right and wrong things to do in terms of the disorder, and I inadvertently did all the wrong things! I wish I had come to this board instead of the leaving board, because it really is different advice (NC vs. this mode of low key, non-triggering engagement).

I hear you on that one! Wish I had gone low-key/non-triggering sooner with my ex too. Although, really, it's not all on me - she certainly escalated conflict and made plenty of "wrong" moves herself. Probably the same in your case.

[kc sunshine]

What do you all think about a small, low key Xmas gift?

[MapleBob]

What do you all think about a small, low key Xmas gift?

My ex and I are long-distance, so we're sending each other cards through the mail. I think you might as well do it, but don't gush or over-spend or expect anything to come of it.

[babyducks]

hi kc sunshine.

I am a little late to the conversation but I thought I would chime in.   Nobody comes with a BPD relationship handbook.   We get to write our own.   Isn't that a mixed blessing?

A lot of the skills learned here are not intuitive and even when we learn them, they take practice.

livednlearned is correct, none of this is intuitive and they take practice.   

I'll go on to add that right/wrong, good/bad aren't really distinctions that are helpful when viewing our relationships with 20/20 hindsight.   I try to avoid she said/I said,  she did/I did comparisons.   Let me try and explain why.    There is a lot of Blame/Shame in BPD relationships.   And it's radioactive.   It poisons things.    It keeps me focused on negativity.   Not on healing and solutions.

Yes bad things happened in my relationship.  I handled some of those pretty badly.   I did do the best I could with the information I had at the time.   My partner did the best she could within her limitations at the time.  I can grieve for what has happened and the innocence that was lost but I also want to look to the future.

You know your situation best, if you feel a small low key no pressure Xmas gift or message wouldn't trigger either her or you, then keep your expectations low and have at it.

and also have a think about the questions livednlearned posed.

'ducks

[kc sunshine]

Oh man, by clingy I mean all those things. It was all going pretty well-- she was telling me all about work stuff and was so animated in it. Every once in a while she would throw in a zinger but mostly it was a good interaction. She said that she loved to talk about work with me. I should have just ended it there. It was her birthday the next day, though and I had a present for her. She liked it but then it reminded her of one of my old exes that she was very jealous of. That led us down the rabbit hole of recriminations and I started to do a combo of JADE and validation. At first she was responsive but then she wasn't. Then I got super clingy. Made it totally known I wanted to get back together. Apologized and made suggestions for ways I could improve on the things she wants me to change about. Ask her if we could go to therapy together. Didn't leave when she wanted me to. Ugh. The worst. I shudder when I think of it.

Validation works pretty well-- when things are very tense it is hard for me to validate though. I usually would leave the situation to avoid the escalation and then she would get over being mad. The bad thing about that approach though was that the things that would make her mad would not get resolved because the focus would be on her anger itself. In retrospect I can see that it was a bad cycle and SET or validation would have worked better.

What tripped me up a little about SET and validation was the sense that I had to prepare those in advance but sometimes that anger would flare up suddenly and I would think my only option was to get out of the situation or get her out of the situation. I think if I thought of both of those more generally I could think of speaking to her emotion, being empathetic to the emotion (how bad it would feel to feel jealous etc). That might have made me more nimble. Anyway, maybe I can take that insight with me moving on.

Your most recent interaction was last week -- initially she was annoyed that you seemed to be doing ok. And then when you got together, things flipped for you, and you ended up feeling clingy. By clingy, do you mean that you let it be known you wanted to get back together? Asked her to forgive you? Begged to stay in contact, etc.? Can you break out what clingy means in this circumstance?

It does sound like a good plan to lay low right now and not contact her again for the time being, as you suggested. You already reached out and the ball is in her court. She knows you are receptive to her at the moment, and the last F2F interaction may have felt like too much, something she is processing at the moment.

How does validation work with her?

[livednlearned]

What do you all think about a small, low key Xmas gift?

Thinking about your most recent interaction with her -- what do you think her response to a low key gift would be?

You were clingy and in response she _________ (got turned off, got angry, cooled toward you, enjoyed the attention, encouraged more of the same behavior, etc.)

What feels right when you think about the dynamic here? What feels more like a compulsion?

[kc sunshine]

I was clingy and in response she got turned off, got angry, cooled toward me. She also got sad and was crying.

On Sunday though, she was open to talking again but I thought better of it and didn't. I told her I would write her but haven't yet-- I think maybe I won't. Should I tell her I won't or just leave it? I have a bit of a worry that she is mad at me for not writing.

Contacting her feels compulsive to me. I was able to not do it yesterday, though I was wishing she would. Responding to her feels compulsive as well.

I'm not sure about what her response to the low key gift will be-- my hope is that it is a peace offering.

Thank you so much for your thoughts and responses-- I wish I had come here earlier.

What do you all think about a small, low key Xmas gift?

Thinking about your most recent interaction with her -- what do you think her response to a low key gift would be?

You were clingy and in response she _________ (got turned off, got angry, cooled toward you, enjoyed the attention, encouraged more of the same behavior, etc.)

What feels right when you think about the dynamic here? What feels more like a compulsion?

[livednlearned]

Hey kc,

It's helpful in these relationships to take an aerial view, 30,000 feet above ground. Otherwise we get anxious and feel like every reaction is loaded. Ideally, you'll become better at pressing pause and collecting your thoughts so you can respond instead of react. This cuts down the chances that we will be stuck in an unhealthy relationship loop.

Part of that 30,000 foot view is recognizing that she feels unstable -- her sense of self is not rooted. The way to manage this is for you to become stable yourself. That way, when she is swinging between merger fantasies (pull) and withdrawal (push) you can hold steady and recognize what's going on for her instead of swinging with her, usually by doing things that just fan the flames.

This article describes why we struggle in these unstable relationships.

You pursued her, and she retreated. She needs space right now. Let her respond to you when she's ready. You know she got angry when you leaned in too hard. Yes, it's possible she may be mad that you didn't acknowledge her with a gift, though that is on her. Your job is to let her self-soothe by letting her self-soothe  and not always inserting yourself into that loop.

[kc sunshine]

Do you think my compulsion is linked to anxiety about thinking about every interaction so hard? Is that a danger of these kind of relationships?

Yes, I like what you say about not inserting myself into the loop-- and that an urge to do that is codependent (an urge to feel needed).

Hey kc,

It's helpful in these relationships to take an aerial view, 30,000 feet above ground. Otherwise we get anxious and feel like every reaction is loaded. Ideally, you'll become better at pressing pause and collecting your thoughts so you can respond instead of react. This cuts down the chances that we will be stuck in an unhealthy relationship loop.

Part of that 30,000 foot view is recognizing that she feels unstable -- her sense of self is not rooted. The way to manage this is for you to become stable yourself. That way, when she is swinging between merger fantasies (pull) and withdrawal (push) you can hold steady and recognize what's going on for her instead of swinging with her, usually by doing things that just fan the flames.

This article describes why we struggle in these unstable relationships.

You pursued her, and she retreated. She needs space right now. Let her respond to you when she's ready. You know she got angry when you leaned in too hard. Yes, it's possible she may be mad that you didn't acknowledge her with a gift, though that is on her. Your job is to let her self-soothe by letting her self-soothe  and not always inserting yourself into that loop.

[MapleBob]

Do you think my compulsion is linked to anxiety about thinking about every interaction so hard? Is that a danger of these kind of relationships?

That's probably a danger in all kinds of relationships, but especially in your situation. I've been in a similar place recently. You overthink every interaction because you're hoping for a specific outcome, and probably to some degree you're tailoring your behavior to what you think will best bring about that outcome. Which is what this forum is kind of about.

The problem is, your ex has (or shows signs of) BPD, and she is not a stable test subject, so it's even more crazy-making that what works one week/day/hour/minute doesn't work the next week/day/hour/minute.

[livednlearned]

Do you think my compulsion is linked to anxiety about thinking about every interaction so hard? Is that a danger of these kind of relationships?

Compulsions can also be rooted in legacy behaviors from childhood. I can see now how my definition of love was determined by patterns in my family of origin. I brought those compulsions to my romantic relationships.

Stepping outside those behaviors and really leaning into the fears to see what it's about can feel really, really uncomfortable. My T compared it to annihilation, which I can see now was an accurate experience for a child to feel toward an adult who was emotionally unavailable. So for me, when love was withdrawn, it didn't just trip my trigger in the current relationship, it tripped my family of origin triggers.

Ideally, we learn to validate ourselves so we are not in a panic when it is not forthcoming from our partners. And we learn to let our partners self-soothe so that we are not constantly interfering with their ability to do this, nor are we constantly triggering feelings of doing for them what they ultimately want to do for themselves.

[kc sunshine]

Update and question:

So I laid low (good advice-- thank you!) and she called me on the day before Xmas to say that she got my present-- she seemed friendly and happy and we talked briefly and nicely. She called again the next to wish me merry xmas and we exchanged nice messages (missing each other's calls). She texted again a couple of days ago saying that she dreamed that I drove back early to surprise her (I'm visiting my family for the holidays). I answered with a smile and she texted that she was going to the movie with her daughter. I replied saying to tell me how it was and then she responded after the movie. I waited until the next day to reply because 1) I wanted to keep laying low 2) I didn't want to respond and be waiting for a response from her at night (which is my most difficult time). I'm wondering though, if it is game playing on my part. Also, perhaps it has become a game because now she hasn't responded either.

How can I work on laying low/being friendly and avoid game playing? The line between the two seems thin for us.

[MapleBob]

Update and question:

So I laid low (good advice-- thank you!) and she called me on the day before Xmas to say that she got my present-- she seemed friendly and happy and we talked briefly and nicely. She called again the next to wish me merry xmas and we exchanged nice messages (missing each other's calls). She texted again a couple of days ago saying that she dreamed that I drove back early to surprise her (I'm visiting my family for the holidays). I answered with a smile and she texted that she was going to the movie with her daughter. I replied saying to tell me how it was and then she responded after the movie. I waited until the next day to reply because 1) I wanted to keep laying low 2) I didn't want to respond and be waiting for a response from her at night (which is my most difficult time). I'm wondering though, if it is game playing on my part. Also, perhaps it has become a game because now she hasn't responded either.

How can I work on laying low/being friendly and avoid game playing? The line between the two seems thin for us.

I'm not sure if it's game-playing, but (at least from my experience) she's testing the waters with this "oh, I had a dream that you came home early to surprise me... .*wink wink*". That seems attention-seeking and baiting to me. I'd continue to keep your distance, because that's what is probably going to be right for you in this situation. I keep telling myself this, but: if someone wants to see you or be with you or spend time with you, they'll beat a path to your door.

[kc sunshine]

Yeah, you are probably right, MapleBob. And not hearing from her is not as excruciating as it was-- maybe because of time & distance (I'm away). I'm trying to do the good work livedandlearned suggested-- self-validate.

I do think though that I did "wrong" in the moment, and probably veered into game-playing. Better maybe would be to answer her in a low-key way when I saw it, and bite the bullet if I didn't hear back from her. That would be friendly and easy-going and low stakes. I think what I'm beginning to understand from this board is that sometimes our BPD partners get scared off by their own overwhelming emotions, or in reaction to our actions (real or perceived), and that if we can be easy with them and ratchet down the tension, there is a possibility of the connection continuing.

Here's another question-- would relating in this way do anything to the regular "cycle" of BPD relationships (idealization, devaluation, discard)? Sometimes I think our break was inevitable to this cycle. Or does it work to reset the cycle (which will repeat, but we can gain more confidence that the discard doesn't have to be final)? 

[MapleBob]

Here's another question-- would relating in this way do anything to the regular "cycle" of BPD relationships (idealization, devaluation, discard)? Sometimes I think our break was inevitable to this cycle. Or does it work to reset the cycle (which will repeat, but we can gain more confidence that the discard doesn't have to be final)? 

I think that walking on eggshells to manage someone else's feelings is only ever going to be temporarily effective in maintaining a relationship. I *do* think it can help in the short-term (or even periodically), to resolve some things or "get over the hump" of a relationship breakdown, but it's just not sustainable as a lifestyle, unless you possess saintly patience.

[kc sunshine]

I understand your pessimism Maple Bob, and often am there myself-- but I'm wondering if there is another, more optimistic way to think about it?

[MapleBob]

I understand your pessimism Maple Bob, and often am there myself-- but I'm wondering if there is another, more optimistic way to think about it?

Well, sure: you can look at it as easing your way through a difficult time in your relationship by being wise and thoughtful and selfless and practicing your skills. But is she at some point going to do the same? She reached out to you, and that is a VERY good sign. I'd just be cautious and chill and give her the benefit of the doubt, I guess. That seems to be working for me (sort of) for the moment.

[kc sunshine]

My optimism so totally fades at night though: I guess chances are she's not contacting me because she is with the replacement. I've got to stay chill. And I guess chill will help me either way.

[Anez]

My optimism so totally fades at night though: I guess chances are she's not contacting me because she is with the replacement. I've got to stay chill. And I guess chill will help me either way.

I know how you feel, brother. Nights are tough. Stay chill and don't let narratives that may or may not be true beat you up.

[1minuteatatime]

Maple/KC Sunshine

My BPD ex broke it off with me in mid November.  Said I would abandon her.  I told her that I needed NC for 30 days(just to heal some) and she pretty much respected it.  Except she put a bunch of stuff on her dating profile referring to me directly and then viewed my dating profile. I didn't recognize it was her and opened it up and read the stuff.  All true but it hurt.  Then she contacted me on day 28 about two small items I didn't need/want/ask for back.  She asked if she could drop it on my porch or car(she dropped all my other stuff in my car the day after break up w/o asking, no need to ask again)  I responded on day 31 and said "I'm here"(which has double meaning because it was my phrase telling her that I care and not going anywhere)  She emailed me back in 3 minutes asking if I was at her place.  I said "no", I'm at my place.  She said she had her kids and couldn't drop the stuff.  I texted her on 12/23 and said that she could drop the stuff in my car or porch whenever and that I was thinking about her that morning.  She texted me back in one minute saying "will do"  I told her to have a good xmas, later.  She texted "Merry Christmas".  I had told her that I would be alone on Christmas prior to her breaking up with me.  I did go to a new friend's place for early Christmas dinner and then got home at 5 and started my 19 mile bike ride around my apartment(my normal ride).  When I finished my ride, she was waiting for me.  I was surprised.  She told me that she knew I was home since my car was there and that she wanted to wait.  She was all dressed up, looked amazing, smelled amazing and I knew that she was alone/going back home alone.  Stupidly, I immediately tried to get in her pants.  I wanted to do that and then talk.  She got upset and left.  I let her leave with no argument.  She texts me 20 minutes later and said "did you just want sex?"  I said no, I wanted to talk... . She said that was not a good way to approach her.  I admitted I wanted to have sex, too.  She then tried to call me.  I only wanted to talk in person.  We usually fight really bad over text and phone.  She agreed to come over on 12/26 if I promised not to try to have sex(because of our sexual chemistry)  I promised and she came over.  I was "invalidating" over and over without friggin' realizing it.  Telling her that wasn't the way I was feeling.  I did listen, just didn't respect her feelings.  I just don't understand communication very well.  Really bad at it.  I also told her that I knew she lied to me about her divorce.  She told me it was over in September and it wasn't.  She apologized and said that she did it because she knew I wanted her to divorce.  I agreed with that and admitted it.  I also told her that we both have lied about feelings and big things.  That we both have broken promises and that if we were going to try again, we would need to be honest about big things and keep promises.  She told me over text the next day that she got defensive because she never said that she wanted back together.  Typical of me to jump the gun.  

I started the texting on 12/27 basically saying that she is right, we probably were not compatible.  I admit I was looking for a non-response(meaning it was completely over) or a response(meaning that she may be open to reconcile.  Stupid move.  She immediately called me but I was not ready to talk.  I hadn't thought it through.  We texted for 1 1/2 hrs and at the end she told me she could not accept "conditional love".  That she had "unconditional love".  I am reading about radical acceptance(I think it means accepting any of her feelings, not necessarily accepting any behavior) and realize I am really bad at it.  She said that I am not willing to fight for her.  I called her after her final "no" over text that day.  She told me she was "done" and that she didn't want to talk.  I said ok and hung up(she was talking as I hung up and I didn't hear it until I hit the button).  She then texted me and told me to never text or call her again.  I sent one last text wishing her the best and telling her I will remember the good times.

I will not contact her first again.  I keep asking this.  :)o you think she will reach out again?  

I also get angry around this time of year.  12/28/01 was the day my dad committed suicide and I get really angry and take it out on people I love/care about.

[MapleBob]

I was "invalidating" over and over without friggin' realizing it.  Telling her that wasn't the way I was feeling.  I did listen, just didn't respect her feelings.  I just don't understand communication very well.  Really bad at it.  I also told her that I knew she lied to me about her divorce.  She told me it was over in September and it wasn't.  She apologized and said that she did it because she knew I wanted her to divorce.  I agreed with that and admitted it.  I also told her that we both have lied about feelings and big things.  That we both have broken promises and that if we were going to try again, we would need to be honest about big things and keep promises.  She told me over text the next day that she got defensive because she never said that she wanted back together.  Typical of me to jump the gun.

I started the texting on 12/27 basically saying that she is right, we probably were not compatible.  I admit I was looking for a non-response(meaning it was completely over) or a response(meaning that she may be open to reconcile.  Stupid move.  She immediately called me but I was not ready to talk.  I hadn't thought it through.  We texted for 1 1/2 hrs and at the end she told me she could not accept "conditional love".  That she had "unconditional love".  I am reading about radical acceptance(I think it means accepting any of her feelings, not necessarily accepting any behavior) and realize I am really bad at it.

Hey 1minute, I think you should read and study these tools (SET, PUVAS, etc.):

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

It seems to me like you made some validation "mistakes" (understandable ones!), and that you could stand to learn and try out some of the skills/lessons. I read your story and it flashes " MISUNDERSTANDING " at me. I think that giving her time and space, and using that time to focus on improving communication and pre-validating her will help A LOT. You feel misunderstood, and she is absolutely misunderstanding you, but by simply disagreeing with her you're not addressing the root of her misunderstanding or her feelings about her perceptions - and that comes across as invalidating. It sounds like you keep jumping to the "NUH UH!" part of the conversation where you refute her.