Others

[raytamtay3]

That's the only word I could come up with for this subject "others".  "Others" defined herein as being those who aren't educated on Borderline Personality Disorder.

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to deal with others who simply feel that my DD13 (almost 14) is like other kids and that "traditional" parenting is the way to go. When I tell them time and time again, we are not dealing with a "normal" child here. We are dealing with one with a mental illness. Why can't they get it in to their head? Now here comes the real vent.

Take for instance my DH. A bit of a history here for ya.  He was my high school sweetheart who I reconnected with about 5 years ago after my divorce.  In the beginning he and my DD got along great. She really like him. He even asked for her permission to ask me to marry him. Which my daughter loved!     They had a very good bond there.  Flash forward to about a year ago when he finally got tired of sitting back and watching her talk and treat me the way she did. Enter devaluation. I believe that's what it's called?

Anyway, me DH never had kids and was never married. Add to that we got married when he was 42 and set in his way of thining. Add to that also, he is an only child.

Well DH is witnessing the beyond out of control nature of my DD. He tells me that if we had a kid together, rest assured it wouldn't be like DD.    I tell him time and time again, that he doesn't know that. In his mind, he thinks it all comes down to lack of discipline and I time and time tell him that no, DD has A MENTAL ILLNESS! Grr! Mommy bear coming out today. Coupled with PMS. So bear with me. .

He is in full fledged war mode. Installed video cameras. Deadbolts on doors. Letting things with DD consume his every waking hour. Now mind you, yes, we are in full fledge critical mode now. And I am more a

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[raytamtay3]

Is there a maximum word allowance here or something? It wouldn't let me continue.

Anyway, I am more ammune to this because I've dealt with it for years. Granted, not as severe as it is now but. He is new to all this. So don't get me wrong. I understand. But I don't want to talk about it, think about it, let it consume me 24/7.  Also, I am not going to hold a grudge against my daughter. The rare moments we have tender moments, I'm going to take full advantage of it. Yes, she lies, is manipulates and knows I have weakness to her because I love her very much, but don't constantly tell me to enjoy it while I can! Because my response is and always will be, thanks I will. With a bit of harshness because I don't get these opportunities as much as I once did. Anyway, he doesn't realize that his suggestions are making things worse than better. But at the same time, I've tried EVERYTHING and nothing has worked so I am open to suggestions. But not at the risk of making things worse for DD. How would you feel having cameras all around. Deadbolts on your doors. Windows nailed shut. Constantly being watched? Yes she has been known to steal. Deadbolts are essential. Yes she has climbed out of her window. So ok, nail the windows in her room shut. Yes she has people in the house when we aren't home... . but no we REALLY need cameras? I'm trying to be a united front. But it's difficult when others just don't get it. TRADITIONAL PARENTING DOES NOT WORK. SHE IS NOT A REBELLIOUS TEEN! Thanks for letting me vent.

[six]

HI Ray

the single biggest issue in my marriage has been our DS26 and we are both his biological parents.  when I look back on all the arguments we have had over how to handle him, I feel so badly about all the time that we lost and the toll that it has taken on our relationship. 

about a year ago we took a course together offered by Valerie porr and this has really helped with understanding what we are up against.  we don't always agree on how to handle him, but we at least are both speaking the same language and we have become partners in trying to handle him.  I appreciate my dh's input even tho I don't always agree with him. 

I would definitely recommend Valerie's course, but if you cant take the course at least read her book together and try to discuss it and see how it applies to your situation.  I think it makes a huge difference when you both "are on the same page."

[vivekananda]

Hi raytam   

It was interesting to read these posts here straight after reading your other thread where you talked of laughing at your daughter on camera as she threw up in the driveway. The differences in your posts confuses me.

First there is no maximum word allowance for these posts, it must have been an issue at your end - easily resolved by posting again. There have been many times I have typed out a long and complicated post only to find my time up and when I try to post it up, it has disappeared... . so that is something to be aware of.

I recall feeling the anger which stayed with me for many years, the anger that others thought that my dd (dear daughter) was just a typical teenager and that she would grow out of it. Interestingly this was from those who hadn't had a teenager yet or didn't have children. Or my in laws who are a BPD trait riddled family. People don't know how to cope with out of order teenagers, so they try to explain it away. So, there is no support there. But there is support here if you want it.

I don't know if you have yet come across the two skills that are the best tools in our tool box: 'Validation' and 'values based Boundaries'. I would like to suggest to you that what you have been trying doesn't seem to have worked that well for you, so perhaps it is time to begin to consider different ways of working on your relationship with your daughter.

Six has suggested you read Porr's book. I have suggested that already to you on your other post. For now, I would like to suggest to you an introduction to the concept of validation. The link below is by Alan Fruzzetti an expert on BPD. He speaks for over 50 mins and his words are gold. I suggest you have a pen with you when you watch, to take notes. You could perhaps share this with your partner. See, it doesn't matter whether he understands that your dd has BPD, the skill of validation works for all of us.

Understanding Validation in Families - Alan E. Fruzzetti, PhD

Let me know if this helps, ok?

Cheers,

Vivek      

[Kate4queen]

in my experience I was so tangled up with loving my BPD son and trying to save him and protect my family and maintain relationships with everyone that I couldn't see my son the way my husband did (and he is both of ours child). I didn't see it because the way my son behaved toward my husband was totally different to how he behaved toward me. It was like night and day. My husband felt like he was living in a war zone and suffered literally from PTSD because of what went on sometimes. It wasn't until about a year ago that my son, (then 21) turned that bitter hatred onto me and I truly saw what my husband had been dealing with for years.

When it came down to it, the only major source of conflict between me and my husband was over this particular son. Once we realized that and were able to be honest with each other, and work together to set boundaries, we kept our marriage together.It's been hard but it needed to be done. We had to meet in the middle. Now every decision we make about our son we share our worries over it, our deepest fears, and try and work out a solution that we both can live with.

Obviously the main issue is having a spouse willing to compromise with you. But in my case, I was the one who had to stop trying to keep them apart, save everyone and protect my other kids. It was killing me.It also helped us to go and see a therapist together who helped us work out a better way to communicate and helped us understand how our son had 'split' us.

It's very hard constantly trying to be the person in the middle, isn't it?

[raytamtay3]

Hi raytam   

It was interesting to read these posts here straight after reading your other thread where you talked of laughing at your daughter on camera as she threw up in the driveway. The differences in your posts confuses me.

I'm sure you can understand, or at least hope you can, that I'm riding the emotional roller coaster right now. I'm still learning this process. I still revert to the mindset that she is a typical kid because she "looks normal". That natural consquences (drink+throw up=natural consequences) will snap her out of it. But in reality I know that it's so. Because she isn't a typical kid. Plus I fall prey to listening to input from those who no nothing about any type of mental illness let alone BPD and I feel like my brain is getting pulled in all different directions as far as how to handle things with her.  It's hard to explain. Hopefully it clarifies where my head is right now. Which if you do, god bless you. .

[raytamtay3]

HI Ray

the single biggest issue in my marriage has been our DS26 and we are both his biological parents.  when I look back on all the arguments we have had over how to handle him, I feel so badly about all the time that we lost and the toll that it has taken on our relationship. 

about a year ago we took a course together offered by Valerie porr and this has really helped with understanding what we are up against.  we don't always agree on how to handle him, but we at least are both speaking the same language and we have become partners in trying to handle him.  I appreciate my dh's input even tho I don't always agree with him. 

I would definitely recommend Valerie's course, but if you cant take the course at least read her book together and try to discuss it and see how it applies to your situation.  I think it makes a huge difference when you both "are on the same page."

The course you refer to (Valerie's course), where could I obtain information about that? Is that something offered at a seminar or is that something on here? I'm sorry. I'm navigating through this site when I can and it's a little overwhelming, so my appologies if I ask stupid questions.

[PyneappleDays]

OMG isn't it awful being in the midaughterle, I'm new to this forum and still trying to figure out if you can reply or leave it to the moderators, and I think I will try the video as well.

I too am not married to my DD (she's 19) father and my new husband scenario sounds like yours.  I tried to explain to my DH the situation and I set up rules in the house I knew she could live with.  He saw fit to think they were too specific and detailed.  He befriended her they were like budaughteries sometimes I felt like the third party.  He has so many problems with boundaries it's not funny, but that a different forum. Then things started to unravel. When she stormed out I blamed him and her cause they both had their parts.  I've put them in charge of repair because I'm not going anywhere.  I've also told them to not make me choose.  He will lose me but I'd be a little bitter towards her.  Those are my boundaries.  I have enough love for the both of them.

In order for her to move back she would have to follow the rules set out as before and he would have to respect. Since the first half isn't going to happen I have another problem and that is you (dh) will be civil to her when she comes over and goes somewhere with us.  Simply, grow up!  She is my daughter I will listen to you but you will respect my decision.

I stop explain her situation to other people.  People who are close to me and my immediate family know.  They deal with her as things come up.  They take their q from me.

I seems like it never stops.

PyneappleDays

PS I find there is a limit, on here you need scroll so you can see what you typed.

[raytamtay3]

OMG isn't it awful being in the middle, I'm new to this forum and still trying to figure out if you can reply or leave it to the moderators, and I think I will try the video as well.

I too am not married to my DD (she's 19) father and my new husband scenario sounds like yours.  I tried to explain to my DH the situation and I set up rules in the house I knew she could live with.  He saw fit to think they were too specific and detailed.  He befriended her they were like buddies sometimes I felt like the third party.  He has so many problems with boundaries it's not funny, but that a different forum. Then things started to unravel. When she stormed out I blamed him and her cause they both had their parts.  I've put them in charge of repair because I'm not going anywhere.  I've also told them to not make me choose.  He will lose me but I'd be a little bitter towards her.  Those are my boundaries.  I have enough love for the both of them.

In order for her to move back she would have to follow the rules set out as before and he would have to respect. Since the first half isn't going to happen I have another problem and that is you (dh) will be civil to her when she comes over and goes somewhere with us.  Simply, grow up!  She is my daughter I will listen to you but you will respect my decision.

I stop explain her situation to other people.  People who are close to me and my immediate family know.  They deal with her as things come up.  They take their q from me.

I seems like it never stops.

Heather



PS I find there is a limit, on here you need scroll so you can see what you typed.

Hi Heather.  Nice to hear from you and great that you can relate to what I'm going through with DD and DH. It's very difficult.  It's like I don't want my DD to think I'm choosing him over her and he thinking I'm falling for DD's antics and choosing to ignore the issues at hand. I just have learned to approach things differently. In his mind he sees it as me being too nice to a person who doesn't deserve it because of her actions. He tells me to take my emotions out of it and treat her like a coworker. Asking how I'd feel if a coworker talked to me the way DD does? Yeah ok. Like that's gonna happen. I will always and forever have an emotional bond to my kids regardless of their actions. Doesnt mean I will enable. It means I will empathise and be there for them no matter what. Within reason of course.  Sometimes I feel I'd be better off alone battling my DD's illness. But on the flip side need some emotional support from him to get through it. Although sometimes he just makes it worse because he wont say anything to her, which is fine and I like it better that way, but I get to hear it and am expected to handle it. And if I don't, I'm falling for her antics. Or I'm making things worse.

[PyneappleDays]

In his mind he sees it as me being too nice to a person who doesn't deserve it because of her actions. He tells me to take my emotions out of it and treat her like a coworker. Asking how I'd feel if a coworker talked to me the way DD does? Yeah ok. Like that's gonna happen. I will always and forever have an emotional bond to my kids regardless of their actions. Doesnt mean I will enable. It means I will empathise and be there for them no matter what. Within reason of course.  Sometimes I feel I'd be better off alone battling my DD's illness. But on the flip side need some emotional support from him to get through it. Although sometimes he just makes it worse because he wont say anything to her, which is fine and I like it better that way, but I get to hear it and am expected to handle it. And if I don't, I'm falling for her antics. Or I'm making things worse.

My DH talks like that too. Well I'm not giving into his antics and tactics too.  But it is a relationship too and you loved him for one reason or another.  I felt like that too I'd rather be alone with her then be in the midaughterle. Balance and my own coping mechanisms help (I run with my dog, hike and a group of girlfriends.)  I will give them 90 % of me 10% I'm keeping for my sanity as well as theirs.  I'm no help to anyone if I don't get me time.  They both present themselves as fully function beings so occupy you for an hour without getting into trouble.  I've also implementing that they meet for coffee and to talk to each other without insulting or lecturing one another.  If they loved me they would both try.  Time is not going anywhere.

He believes he’s right cause he’s the parent in the house and his father was in charge, he’s read a few books and he’s watched it on TV. She believes she's right because she's the victum.

I do believe it will take time but I do tell him he’s that adult stop barking orders from the corner sucking your thumb.

PyneappleDays

[six]

Valerie porrs course is available at the website tara4BPD.org.  there are other courses also that are offered.  this one gave us a lot of info in a short amount of time

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

I'm sure you can understand, or at least hope you can, that I'm riding the emotional roller coaster right now. I'm still learning this process. I still revert to the mindset that she is a typical kid because she "looks normal". That natural consquences (drink+throw up=natural consequences) will snap her out of it.

oh yeah, I remember... . yes I do understand and I can sympathise. It is confusing, hurtful and frustrating. I am so glad you are here with us and yes, there is hope and clarity. And we can come through it better people than when we start 'this process' too.

Now, the Tara courses aren't everywhere, but they do have online ones too. Six gave you the web address but here is the link (makes it easier): National Borderline Personality Disorder Resource and Referral Center

there is also the NEA resources: National Education Alliance Borderline Personality Disorder at this site you can find out about the program for family members.

raytam, coming to grips with others in the family who we expect to support us and who don't is a feature of our lives. When it is our husband, it really hurts us and causes us frustration. Men like to think they can solve problems and when they can't 'fix it', they often deny the problem exists and use all sorts of strategies to cope. This is a challenging time for you. Please take care of yourself, be compassionate towards yourself and to all in your home, life becomes a little easier when you can do that.

Stay with us here and be patient too as we learn how we can support you, ok?

Vivek     

[pessim-optimist]

He tells me that if we had a kid together, rest assured it wouldn't be like DD.

I know this. I never had children of my own. So, I am pretty sure if I did, THEY would have been perfect!  HAHA

Hi ray,   

I am glad you have found us! Sounds like you are being pulled in different directions. It often happens before we all get on the same page regarding BPD, that different family members have very different ideas on how to deal with it (and even after we get educated, differences are natural). I am sorry that your situation seems a bit out of the ordinary right now, and PMS doesn't help, I hear ya on that one!

Please hang in there. I think that your husband means well (even if he isn't going about it the way you would like him to).

He is a man - a problem solver. I think he is trying to do two things: protect you from your dd's bad behaviors, and help raise your dd the best he can think of. When he tells you to treat your dd as a coworker, I think he might be saying that if your dd was a stranger, you would not let her treat you the way she does... . Do you think that's correct?

You, on the other hand, love your dd and want her to be treated the best way possible, right?

As you learn more about BPD and practice the tools we can use in communicating with our pwBPD, you will be able to achieve both the things that you and your husband are trying to accomplish. That way - having common goals, you could get on the same page, and present a united front. Do you think he would be interested in learning more about BPD and what approaches are effective?

Where are you at on the learning journey?

[raytamtay3]

Thanks everyone. We pretty much just started this journey as we've been diagnosed with multiple things with the last one being BPD. Which makes sense to me. But I also believe she has conduct disorder on top of it because she it doesn't matter what your authority is (police, teachers, principles, etc.) she will tell you off.

I give my husband credit. I sent him the attached link with a video explaining what BPD in adolesants looks like that I got off this site (https://bpdfamily.blogspot.com/2013/05/bpdfamily.html#d), and he watched it last night. Unfortutenyl he misinterpreted a lot of what the Dr. said.  Here was my husband's response. I was alseep so he responded to the email I sent him with the link.

"I watch the whole video its 50 50 and if anything you have to stick by your standardsI'm sorry I don't agree with you he said if the mother says no to money the father gives it then that's a problem you have to stick to your standards she doesn't talk about suicide all the time he talked a lot about that remember don't play doctor on the Internet a lot of it  didnt click with me with her I'm only saying I'm on the outside looking in it was 50 50 a lot of it didn't meet her criteria yes some did but not all of it"

He doesn't get it yet. First of all, she was dignosed so I'm not playing "doctor on the internet".  How frusterating! But I do appreciate his effort. And I tried to explain what the Dr. meant by the manipulation example. He thinks he's talking about how the parents needed to be consistent. I said no, was giving an example of what manipulation looks like in the general sense. And that BPD kids don't have the tools to manipulate otherwise the wouldn't end up in treatment. Or at least that's my interpreation. And also, he says about how my daughter doesn't talk about suicide. The Dr. explained how many kids who come into his unit aren't suicidal, although will have suidical ideation (my daughter kept a journal talking about suicide last year) and that most self harm. My daughter cuts.  :)uh. Anyway, I'm being patient with him because he has more learning to do about it than I do. I'm a little more ahead of the game. We will learn together.

[pessim-optimist]

Hi again ray,

I hear your frustration. When all this information is new, it can be pretty confusing. It is great that your husband does try to understand though. Maybe getting the book "The Essential Family Guide to BPD" by R. Kreger might help to start.

It may take you a while to be able to explain things to him. Try to pick times when you are both calm and he is open to listen.

Then maybe the fact that it is an official diagnosis from a Dr. will sink in, as well as the fact that there are currently 9 criteria and the child only needs to meet 5 out of the 9 to be diagnosed. Also the intensity of each symptom can vary. And all in all there are lots of possible combinations of the symptoms (5 out of 9 gives over 100 possible combinations).

[vivekananda]

Hi raytam... .

my dd is undiagnosed BPD, she is diagnosed PTSD - that's a long story to explain so I won't do it here. Anyway, my dh took about 6 mths before he could utter the words BPD it seems. Now he has no problem with accepting that she has BPD. One of the things that made a difference was going to group meetings of family members and partners etc of people with BPD. He benefitted enormously from meeting with others who share the same sort of problems... . and these others helped to put him straight too   I could just sit back and watch. My concern at the start was his inability to stick to the boundaries that we had agreed to! He always thought he knew best. Then he learnt about splitting etc... . little by little. He is still not totally on board but at least he can see clearly now. The other thing that helped was meeting with a psych that specialised in working with 'carers' of those with BPD. She was brilliant... . see he can't argue when an 'expert' or just even someone else, tells him   

Stay on track girl, all will happen in its own good time, just take care of yourself eh?

Vivek    

[six]

Hi Ray

I agree with Vivek  that the group experience of other caretakers was so helpful to my DH in accepting the truth and reality of our situation.  I also find that other "others" in my life, such as grandparents of my DSBPD26, refuse to accept the reality.  my mother tells me not to "label" him and that he is just fine and he is a wonderful person.  She thinks that if you label someone you essentially give up on the ability of that person to be "normal." 

I wonder if your DH is so resistant to the diagnosis because he thinks it would be best for your DD if you treat her normally.  Maybe he thinks this will force her to behave normally.  I know my mother thinks that.

In any case, I think it is important to remember that your dh watched the video and is trying to engage with you on how best to handle the situation. a lot of spouses would not do that much.  I think you are lucky to have a partner who is trying to share this difficult journey with you. 

Good luck

6