Do BPs create havoc to feel in control and safe?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have been reflecting on my marriage and some of the patterns of behavior that consistently played out.  I had an epiphany of sorts the last couple days that most of the crazy making stuff that happened in the marriage always served the purpose of keeping my BPDw in a position of authority.  My wife perpetually and obsessively promoted the need for everything to be 50-50, and I mean e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g.

But in playing back my tapes about what happened and all the sordid events that created so much havoc, I now perceive that these were not events but unconscious tactics that she used to feel safe.  Yes, to allow her to feel safe.  By always having some form of craziness going on there was never a chance to have equilibrium in the marriage and thereby no comfortable emotional intimacy.  Lots of firefighting and 911 moments made her feel in control.  And she was aces at being an emergency responder and moreover, I felt deep admiration for her skills and our love affirmed by her efforts.

But now in hindsight, I am seeing her enforcement of 50-50 and all the craziness that emanated from other events as ensuring that we were always measuring how close or apart we were and ensuring that we would never experience closeness.  Most importantly, I am now thinking that this was her safety mechanism to feel secure and in control when we were getting too close.

What are other peoples experiences or thoughts around this?

[joeramabeme]

I have been reflecting on my marriage and some of the patterns of behavior that consistently played out.  I had an epiphany of sorts the last couple days that most of the crazy making stuff that happened in the marriage always served the purpose of keeping my BPDw in a position of authority.  My wife perpetually and obsessively promoted the need for everything to be 50-50, and I mean e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g.

But in playing back my tapes about what happened and all the sordid events that created so much havoc, I now perceive that these were not events but unconscious tactics that she used to feel safe.  Yes, to allow her to feel safe.  By always having some form of craziness going on there was never a chance to have equilibrium in the marriage and thereby no comfortable emotional intimacy.  Lots of firefighting and 911 moments made her feel in control.  And she was aces at being an emergency responder and moreover, I felt deep admiration for her skills and our love affirmed by her efforts.

But now in hindsight, I am seeing her enforcement of 50-50 and all the craziness that emanated from other events as ensuring that we were always measuring how close or apart we were and ensuring that we would never experience closeness.  Most importantly, I am now thinking that this was her safety mechanism to feel secure and in control when we were getting too close.

What are other peoples experiences or thoughts around this?

[ShadowIntheNight]

I don't  know if it was for control or safety in my case. I suspect it was just a natural way for her life to be because she couldn't handle calmness. There was always a turmoil in the years we were together. Either it was her exH, her finances, her family, her coworkers, her job, her clients(she is a therapist), her bills, her power being shut off, her kids. You name it. There was always something. And the only time she didn't have turmoil, seemingly, was when we were together. (We lived in separate cities and didn't live together, even though we were a lesbian couple for almost 10 years).

I don't know if her life is in turmoil now. How it isn't I don't know. Whomever the joker is who rushed in on his white horse to carry her off by now has realized there's no end to the turmoil. I think in my ex's case it was what made her feel "alive" and important. But this is my best quess. Girl loved her some turmoil... .

[fromheeltoheal]

Good awareness of what's going on joe.  Speaking standard borderline:

I have been reflecting on my marriage and some of the patterns of behavior that consistently played out.  I had an epiphany of sorts the last couple days that most of the crazy making stuff that happened in the marriage always served the purpose of keeping my BPDw in a position of authority.  My wife perpetually and obsessively promoted the need for everything to be 50-50, and I mean e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g.

Borderlines fear abandonment constantly as well as fear engulfment, losing themselves in another person, so the challenge is to find that place between those two conflicting fears where they don't fear either.  The desire to have everything 50-50 is an attempt to avoid being engulfed; if you ended up 60-40 in her head that would be a step towards the eventual 100-0 and she'd lose herself.  And it has to be artificial like that because she can't meet you on an equal footing naturally, since there is no 'self' there.

But in playing back my tapes about what happened and all the sordid events that created so much havoc, I now perceive that these were not events but unconscious tactics that she used to feel safe.  Yes, to allow her to feel safe. 

In a sense, yes.  More specifically, borderlines have an unstable sense of self because the 'self' isn't fully formed, and combine that with intense emotions she has trouble regulating, and it's chaos between her ears full time.  And then once she shares that chaos with people she notices it puts them on edge, they get uncomfortable and anxious, the 'walking on eggshells' thing, and when they're in that place they can be controlled, therefore they won't leave, and she gets the feeling of 'safe' that is a reduction in the fear of abandonment.

By always having some form of craziness going on there was never a chance to have equilibrium in the marriage and thereby no comfortable emotional intimacy. 

And there could never be equilibrium because again she doesn't have a fully formed self of her own, so she isn't capable of being in a partnership of two autonomous individuals and creating that intimacy.  Plus if she gets too close her fear of engulfment would get triggered, she'd fear she'd lose herself in you, so it could never be comfortable; the closer you got the more uncomfortable she'd be.

Lots of firefighting and 911 moments made her feel in control.  And she was aces at being an emergency responder and moreover, I felt deep admiration for her skills and our love affirmed by her efforts.

Yes, when we live in continual chaos we get good at operating in that mode, and you made her firefighting mean that your love was strong, what she was doing was substituting for who she was being and the intimacy that wasn't there?

But now in hindsight, I am seeing her enforcement of 50-50 and all the craziness that emanated from other events as ensuring that we were always measuring how close or apart we were and ensuring that we would never experience closeness.  Most importantly, I am now thinking that this was her safety mechanism to feel secure and in control when we were getting too close.

Yep, exactly.  Artificially creating a 50-50 that she couldn't naturally be in, and keeping those engulfment fears at bay.

You know what's going on joe, and I am fully aware of what that feels like and I'm sorry you experienced it too.  Take care of you!

[joeramabeme]

Good awareness of what's going on joe.  Speaking standard borderline:

Borderlines fear abandonment constantly as well as fear engulfment, losing themselves in another person, so the challenge is to find that place between those two conflicting fears where they don't fear either.  The desire to have everything 50-50 is an attempt to avoid being engulfed; if you ended up 60-40 in her head that would be a step towards the eventual 100-0 and she'd lose herself.  And it has to be artificial like that because she can't meet you on an equal footing naturally, since there is no 'self' there.

But in playing back my tapes about what happened and all the sordid events that created so much havoc, I now perceive that these were not events but unconscious tactics that she used to feel safe.  Yes, to allow her to feel safe. 



In a sense, yes.  More specifically, borderlines have an unstable sense of self because the 'self' isn't fully formed, and combine that with intense emotions she has trouble regulating, and it's chaos between her ears full time.  And then once she shares that chaos with people she notices it puts them on edge, they get uncomfortable and anxious, the 'walking on eggshells' thing, and when they're in that place they can be controlled, therefore they won't leave, and she gets the feeling of 'safe' that is a reduction in the fear of abandonment.

By always having some form of craziness going on there was never a chance to have equilibrium in the marriage and thereby no comfortable emotional intimacy. 

And there could never be equilibrium because again she doesn't have a fully formed self of her own, so she isn't capable of being in a partnership of two autonomous individuals and creating that intimacy.  Plus if she gets too close her fear of engulfment would get triggered, she'd fear she'd lose herself in you, so it could never be comfortable; the closer you got the more uncomfortable she'd be.

Lots of firefighting and 911 moments made her feel in control.  And she was aces at being an emergency responder and moreover, I felt deep admiration for her skills and our love affirmed by her efforts.

Yes, when we live in continual chaos we get good at operating in that mode, and you made her firefighting mean that your love was strong, what she was doing was substituting for who she was being and the intimacy that wasn't there?

But now in hindsight, I am seeing her enforcement of 50-50 and all the craziness that emanated from other events as ensuring that we were always measuring how close or apart we were and ensuring that we would never experience closeness.  Most importantly, I am now thinking that this was her safety mechanism to feel secure and in control when we were getting too close.



You know what's going on joe, and I am fully aware of what that feels like and I'm sorry you experienced it too.  Take care of you!

HeelToHeal,

As always, I appreciate your replies and find them insightful and informative. 

I am still unclear about a topic that you, and others, mention about "unstable sense of self because the 'self' isn't fully formed".  Can you elaborate on this?  Or are there lessons about what this means? 

I have read this in all the literature and I can't get my mind wrapped around it.  I am sure that part of my mental block here is that she is/appears strong and stable as a rock; immovable, definite in her decisions, no gray at all. 

She used to get so upset with me for seeing everything as being gray, it was actually a topic that lead to difficulties for us.  In a sense, I am very wishy-washy about stuff, further, I have a tendency to change my mind about decisions before getting comfortable.  These decisions can be big ones like where to vacation or small ones like where to go to dinner. 

We all assimilate our spouses behavior to some degree and I tried to assimilate her sure-footed-ness and in some ways was successful.  I know this last part is a bit off topic, but the point being, she did not seem to lack a sense of self, she seemed very assured, so much so that I was trying to copy her example.

Even as we have gone in to divorce, there is no hesitation for her.  She has made up her mind and that is it.  Me, I am a basket case and asked for a therapeutic period of evaluation before finalizing the decision.  NOPE!  So I am internally asking, who is the one lacking center here?

One other snafu I have with processing this.  I see Joe as having deep fears of engulfment (childhood with a needy mother and parentification as a 5 year old) and also believe that this added to the toxic stew that was part of our demise.  I can't delineate my own lack of being centered (engulfment/entrenchment) from where she was un-centered.  (Which BTW, makes me feel that I should be doing some DBT myself and adds a level of self-doubt about my declaration that SHE is the one with BP)

Could provide some more detail about this lack of center? 

Thanks H2H!

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Joe-

I am still unclear about a topic that you, and others, mention about "unstable sense of self because the 'self' isn't fully formed".  Can you elaborate on this?  Or are there lessons about what this means?  

Before we are born and slightly thereafter we can't distinguish between ourselves and our mother; to us we're one person, not a stretch really since we are or just were inside her.  At some point it becomes clear there is a 'me' and a 'her', two separate entities, and then what?  What if she leaves?  What will I do then?  I can't survive without her!  Fear of abandonment right from the start, and most of us weather that and the subsequent 'abandonment depression' as it's termed, a vital step in becoming an autonomous individual with a 'self' of our own.  A borderline never does that, never weathers that abandonment depression, for a variety of reasons depending on the circumstances, and that creates the disorder, so they spend a lifetime trying to reestablish that connection to make themselves 'one' with someone, attachments, and then fear losing that attachment, fear of abandonment all over again, to the point a borderline can think they don't exist at all without and attachment.

I have read this in all the literature and I can't get my mind wrapped around it.

And notice, as you're trying to get your mind around it you can entertain different viewpoints and ways of looking at it, but under it all is your core, who you are.  We can also experience all kinds of emotions, but who we are under them is relatively constant, a compass if you will, to help us find our way by going back to 'who we are'.  Who a borderline 'is' to themselves is unstable and therefore changes, because of the above, and is therefore subject to the sway of emotions, which they feel intensely because there is no reliable compass, no grounding in a consistent 'self'.  Yes, it is hard to get your head around at first, but you know that voice in your head?  The one that just asked 'what voice?'  Someone completely without a 'self' doesn't have that voice, and someone with an unstable 'self' has a voice that changes and is unreliable, so emotions predominate and become facts.

I am sure that part of my mental block here is that she is/appears strong and stable as a rock; immovable, definite in her decisions, no gray at all.

 

Which may have been an overcompensation, she has to be that way intentionally, a skill developed over time because the alternative is too chaotic.  Is she really that way or is she really trying to be that way?  Or maybe she really is stable and doesn't have that trait of the disorder.

She used to get so upset with me for seeing everything as being gray, it was actually a topic that lead to difficulties for us.  In a sense, I am very wishy-washy about stuff, further, I have a tendency to change my mind about decisions before getting comfortable.  These decisions can be big ones like where to vacation or small ones like where to go to dinner.  

Your behavior sounds pretty normal to me, and you seeing things in gray could have made her very uncomfortable because a trait of the disorder is to see everything in black and white, there is no gray, so you're speaking Greek when you go there.  Another option is projection; she hates herself when she feels wishy-washy, so attacking you when you do is projected self loathing.

she did not seem to lack a sense of self, she seemed very assured, so much so that I was trying to copy her example.

Even as we have gone in to divorce, there is no hesitation for her.  She has made up her mind and that is it.  Me, I am a basket case and asked for a therapeutic period of evaluation before finalizing the decision.  NOPE!  So I am internally asking, who is the one lacking center here?

Maybe that was really the case or maybe an insistence; someone who doesn't like gray is going to be decisive.  Borderlines also feel better when they feel they're in control, since they're constantly trying to find the balance between the conflicting fears of abandonment and engulfment, so controlling those around them and their world makes that more manageable.

One other snafu I have with processing this.  I see Joe as having deep fears of engulfment (childhood with a needy mother and parentification as a 5 year old) and also believe that this added to the toxic stew that was part of our demise.  I can't delineate my own lack of being centered (engulfment/entrenchment) from where she was un-centered.  (Which BTW, makes me feel that I should be doing some DBT myself and adds a level of self-doubt about my declaration that SHE is the one with BP)

I notice you've been here a month, and I don't know how long you were married or how long it's been over and you've spoken to her, but that's not very long.  If she does exhibit traits of the disorder and you were emotional enmeshed with her you're going to be anxious and confused, the whole walking on eggshells thing, and the best thing you can do right now is take very good care of yourself as you get time and distance from her; more will be revealed and more will become clear.  :)BT was developed specifically for borderlines, but it came out of CBT which is more mainstream and beneficial for anyone.  I recommend it, but give yourself time before you start diagnosing yourself with PDs and the like.  A big part of detaching is taking our power back, and when you do your perceptions will change.  Take care of you!

[joeramabeme]

"I notice you've been here a month, and I don't know how long you were married or how long it's been over and you've spoken to her, but that's not very long."

I still live with her.  She is moving out end of this month.  She went away this weekend and I walked her out the front door to her car.  She seemed to be paying me attention and seemed concerned that I did not have plans for the weekend.  I am almost ashamed (but not really) to report that it gave me a sense of comfort to see her concern.  I came within a whisper of telling her I love her (my mind said it and my mouth almost uttered it just a nanosecond before my mind reminded me not to say it).  If I had said it, I think it would have scared her.

"If she does exhibit traits of the disorder and you were emotional enmeshed with her you're going to be anxious and confused, the whole walking on eggshells thing, and the best thing you can do right now is take very good care of yourself as you get time and distance from her; more will be revealed and more will become clear.

H2H, I am working like a dog at recovering from this!  Two therapists, two divorce support groups, BPDFaily.com (I LOVE THIS SITE!), yoga class, 12-step meetings and a cadre of friends that I am indebted to for listening to me ad nausea.

I have moments ok and fine and then moments when I am in so much pain that it feels like I am at a perpetual funeral more than healing from a broken marriage. 

Never been divorced.  I hear others at support groups talk about similar pain.  Not sure what part of my pain is from being a non and which part is about divorce.  Probably inseparable for measurement, but thank you for repeating about taking care of myself.  I have gained enough knowledge from you and these boards to see the spark of understanding this I am the only one I can take care of.

DBT was developed specifically for borderlines, but it came out of CBT which is more mainstream and beneficial for anyone.  I recommend it, but give yourself time before you start diagnosing yourself with PDs and the like.

As you may have surmised from reading what I am doing to try and heal that "I want to feel better now"     Part of the impulsiveness that has landed me in a 12-step program.

Thank you again, I will research CBT but I believe this is what I am already doing with 2 therapists and have done for many-many years.  I just want to be rid of the gnawing hole that has plagued me all during this marriage and well before.  I was thinking that DBT may be a more direct approach to addressing some BP type qualities I have gleaned about myself while reading the literature.[/color]

A big part of detaching is taking our power back, and when you do your perceptions will change.  Take care of you!"

If you and others are repeating it I will trust it, even though I yet see it.

Take care of you!"

I have taken this gem to heart and it has become somewhat of a mantra for me. Thank you!

[WhatJustHappened?]

I totally agree and will add one more thing. I think it's also a means to keep the spotlight and focus on them. A constant test to see how much you care and how willing you are to sacrifice for them.

My exBPDgf told me early on about numerous medical problems and that they were all 'under control'. But magically after we got close, all hell broke lose. Mysterious surgeries, trips to ER and new illnesses.

It was like when she knew she had me 110%, the "relationship test" began. We had a LD relationship so after our second in-person visit, all hell broke lose in regards to her health. None of it made sense to me because every time I offered to fly in to help her, it was denied. Then after I found out she was lying to me about one of her hospital admissions, it all made sense.

[fromheeltoheal]

I still live with her.  She is moving out end of this month.  She went away this weekend and I walked her out the front door to her car.  She seemed to be paying me attention and seemed concerned that I did not have plans for the weekend.  I am almost ashamed (but not really) to report that it gave me a sense of comfort to see her concern.  I came within a whisper of telling her I love her (my mind said it and my mouth almost uttered it just a nanosecond before my mind reminded me not to say it).  If I had said it, I think it would have scared her.

Yikes!  I am entirely familiar with the concurrent feelings of impending insanity and addictive 'love', I have never been so out of my head in my life, and I fled crying with my ass on fire.  Not pretty, and I look forward to your August, when your feet may start to reacquaint with the ground.

As you may have surmised from reading what I am doing to try and heal that "I want to feel better now"     Part of the impulsiveness that has landed me in a 12-step program.

Thank you again, I will research CBT but I believe this is what I am already doing with 2 therapists and have done for many-many years.  I just want to be rid of the gnawing hole that has plagued me all during this marriage and well before.  I was thinking that DBT may be a more direct approach to addressing some BP type qualities I have gleaned about myself while reading the literature.

Yeah, I've done plenty of feel-better-now, and as with anything, there are no shortcuts and things worth it take time.  You sound like you have plenty of support on your end, and distance from her will make a difference.

The traits of the disorder are on a continuum, we all experience some of them some of the time, plus hanging out with a borderline we can inherit 'fleas', traits of their disorder ourselves, which will resolve when we eject from the borderline orbit.

Take care of you!"

I have taken this gem to heart and it has become somewhat of a mantra for me. Thank you!

Run with it man, and I look forward to interjecting where I can during what is sure to be an interesting July.

[apollotech]

... .all the craziness that emanated from other events as ensuring that we were always measuring how close or apart we were and ensuring that we would never experience closeness.

joe,

You have it. Her behavior was to control the closeness. They are always playing towards an end game: to avoid engulfment or to avoid abandonment. I am sorry that you were caught up in that, especially within a marriage.

[Turkish]

I think your read on that it is unconcious is accurate. In Understanding The Borederline Mother,.Lawson speaks about it being a dysfunctional coping mechanism. It's just what they do to survive. You don't know what you don't know.

I used to think of my ex in these terms: ten people could be having a good time in a from, then in walks my Ex, and negativity ensues. Interesting, fir a person who projected her inner negativity (pain) on the world. The control issues I can totally relate to. Sometimes some form of a power struggle mat be normal in a healthy r/s. But with a pwBPD who both needs a proxy parent, and fears engulfmeny, (as fromheeltoheal says, it's nearly impossible to know what to do.

[joeramabeme]

But with a pwBPD who both needs a proxy parent, and fears engulfment, (as fromheeltoheal says, it's nearly impossible to know what to do.

who both needs a proxy parent, and fears engulfment

I love it!  I have felt this feeling off and on through the years and never had words for it.  That nailed it.

Thanks all for your wonderful posts and information.