My journey with therapy - II

[Nuitari]

When I read through your initial post I got the clear impression that you chose to continue your affair even after he became aware that something was happening between you and his wife. This just feels an attempt to rationalise your desire to hurt or punish him and destroy what's left of their marriage; an objective you've stated in other posts.

No. Its more complicated than that. When I have more time, I would like to tell the story of the circumstances surrounding her husband calling the school. That's going to be a lengthy post, but the short version is that my attempt to do the right thing set off a chain of events that led to him calling the school. So I am left feeling like I was punished for doing the right thing. Aside from my T, I feel like I get no recognition for trying to disengage from that whole mess. I don't get it here, and certainly not from my ex's husband.

I want to be absolutely clear about something. I'm in no way trying to rationalize anything in an effort to make myself look good. I've been very candid about all of my wrong doings. But I've also tried to make clear (both in my initial post and elsewhere) how clingy and controlling my ex became. Every time I thought we had finally ended things on good terms, she'd resurface again, always in the middle of some personal crises that only I could solve. After everything we had been through together, I didn't have the heart to refuse her. I didn't lose my job because of an affair, but because of her extremely needy nature. For some reason I always felt a deep obligation to help her. All of these feeling resurfaced briefly when she recently asked me to write her a recommendation letter. I'm proud to say that I didn't even respond. I was always made to feel guilty for doing anything for myself. I decided to go on a road trip by myself just to try to get away from everything and heal. Its something I felt like I needed to do. That drove her nuts. She was calling me every ten minutes wanting to know where I was and what I was doing. Things actually got scary for a while.  We weren't even in a relationship anymore, and it was like she was trying to own me. This behavior continued even after I lost my job, until I finally ended all contact with her. The reason I am so frustrated is because I don't think her husband sees that clingy and possessive side of her. Instead, he saw me as someone who was intruding in his marriage. At least, what little interaction I had with him would suggest as much. If he didn't want her talking to me at work, he should have taken that up with her. I was more than happy with her no longer talking to me. What he did was unnecessary. I've done some wrong things, but I'm not guilty of the things he's accused me of, and I can't help but get upset when people try to convince me that I am.

But if you really want to try and understand his thinking you could imagine what might say if he posted his story here.

I work for the military serving my country. My wife has been struggling with mental health issues for some time and I'm trying to support her and our family as best I can. She decided to got back to school. I supported her and I hoped it might help build her confidence and make her happier.  I was posted away (fighting for my country) and when I came home I discovered that my wife was having an affair with one of her teachers. I was completely devastated. I know my wife is vulnerable and a bit unstable and I feel so angry that someone in a position of trust and authority would exploit his position like that.

I don't know what to say to that, except that I didn't know of her mental health issues until too late. It doesn't make right what I did, but she had me convinced that their marriage was ending that he was ready to walk away. I feel like I was tricked. All of us here have been hurt by someone we loved, but most of you have the consolation of knowing that your exes once held strong and genuine, albeit unsustainable, feelings for you. That is something you can cherish. I don't have that. If I'm going to be completely honest with myself, I have to face that my ex deliberately toyed with my feelings. I was used and manipulated. Focusing on my own actions doesn't help with my anger because none of my unethical behavior excuses all of those things she did. She treats people in ways that no human being should ever treat another, and she gets to walk away every time. I want her to answer for it, and I can't think of a better way than exposing her to him. By all rights he should be as angry and hurt as I am, but instead he gets to live in blissful ignorance. A few months after losing my job, I threatened to call him, and she said "why can't you move on from this? He's already moved on. Why can't you?" Of course he's moved on! He doesn't have to know all the horrible things that I do. His feelings were spared, while she doesn't give a damn about mine. If our relationship had meant anything to her, she would have told him the full truth about us. Instead, she wanted ask more and more of me, and expected me to keep all of my pain to myself and not do anything that might inconvenience their lives in slightest. My ex is the personification of evil and selfishness, and I hate her.

Sorry for the rant. I appreciate all of your replies. It takes me a while to get through them all, but there is more that I will reply to when I have more time.

[myself]

The consensus seems to be to do what's best for You.
Honestly, that might be to send the letter. It's your move to make.
Not being heard/respected/understood can hurt, and keeps some stuck.
Looking ahead, a few years let's say, will it be better for you to have sent it?
Will it have helped you speak up for yourself, create more closure, etc?
Even if it's a temporarily 'wrong' move, another life lesson faced... .
 

[Nuitari]

I hope you can consider, in retrospect, that this woman and her husband (and anyone really) are much much more complex than you are painting here.  No man or woman decides " I'm going to marry a person who is pathologically incapable of being faithful or reciprocating my love.  "      

Perhaps not, but he did make the decision to remain in a marriage like that, to fight for it, and even help destroy the lives of those that look like they might be a threat to it. It just seems like very strange, unhealthy behavior, and I just don't get it.

We all know... .that is not what people are thinking or intending when they marry,  anymore than it was your expectation when you became involved with her, right?    

Here's the thing. People keep telling me that I should learn from this. But it doesn't feel like there is any burden on him to learn anything. Shouldn't he have learned something too? Shouldn't this experience have made him question his marriage and the mental stability of his wife? No. His primary concern was to punish me for buying into the fairy tale she sold me. And he expects what exactly to happen next? Are they supposed to live happily ever after now? Is that what he thinks is going to happen? Shouldn't it bother him that his wife felt some strange need to convince another man that she was leaving her husband? No. He just lashes out at me so they can pick up where they left off. It just seems like such shallow thinking.  

[jhkbuzz]

Thanks for your replies everyone. I'm still reading through all of them. I'm working so many hours during the week that weekends are practically the only time I have now to come here.

For me it was very important to be able to feel that my anger at my BPDex was justified. I found therapy terribly invalidating because it made me feel like I was the problem. Of course I was part of the problem, but that was an insight I was ready for much later. When I was hurting it was important for me to feel that I had been a victim. I even think I needed to think like that because for so many years I had felt like the perpetrator and now I needed to adjust to not being that. The balanced view on things is something that I think you are ready for much later.

Wow. This just summed up what I'm going through. My therapist keeps telling me that I'm not victim, and that its my "victim mentality" that's spawning my anger. But its hard for me to see how someone could go through what I went through and not feel like a victim. When she tells me that I need to stop feeling victimized, I feel like she might as well be telling to flap my arms and fly. Its not going to happen.

I'm headed towards 2 1/2 years post breakup. I just ended therapy (after finding a therapist as my r/s was ending). My first thought when I read what your therapist said to you is that perhaps you need a new therapist. 

I was deeply angry for a long time. If I spend any time dwelling on the things she did I can still feel angry. But it just doesn't take up my time anymore.

For the first year of therapy I did nothing but talk about the r/s. My hurt, my anger. I had completely fallen apart (it was an 8 year r/s) and I just needed someone to listen and validate. If my therapist initially started telling me that I needed to stop feeling victimized, I think I might have told her to f*&% off. I was victimized - BUT - I'm not a victim. Not a perpetual victim. Not comfortable in remaining in a "victim" stance for a very long time. But it was important to grieve and be validated - and those were the ingredients that helped me move forward and begin to heal.

The time came (in therapy) that I stopped talking so much about my ex; when I started to look inward and my own personal history and "stuff" that needed to be dealt with and healed. But I "drove" that timetable - my therapist never did. She always said, "No wine before its time." She repeated it when I felt like it was taking me "too long" to get over the r/s. And she let me keep talking about the r/s for as long as I needed. It was almost like getting poison out of my system.

I read a quote once: "Anger is sad's bodyguard". I know that, for me, it was often easier - much easier - to be angry instead of sad. Because when I was sad, I was terribly, terribly sad. Unbearably sad. I had to work through the sadness - there was no other way around it.

The thing that kept me from acting on my anger is that I want to be a person of integrity. I'm not always successful, but I want to feel proud of myself when I look in the mirror - not ashamed. That impulse kept me from taking actions that I was afraid I would later regret.

One other thing that really helped me was the recognition that "I am not my thoughts." I learned to observe my thoughts - and even my emotions at times - in a detached sort of way, especially when I was starting to get worked up. I got curious - and tried to identify triggers. "Hmmmm... .why am I suddenly feeling angry today?" When I got curious I would almost always be able to trace back and identify the trigger (song on the radio, passed by a place we used to go to together) and it would somehow help me calm down. I began to notice my thoughts (especially the ones that "my life is s&*t and hers (with her rebound r/s) is awesome" and began actively stopping them. "That's not the story" I would sometimes say out loud. "These thoughts are just thoughts and I can choose to stop investing in the ones that don't build me up." I began to take care of myself - and that included making sure to not allow self defeating thoughts to get very far.

I don't know if any of this helps. I hope it does. Your anger is natural and normal, and it will take as long as it takes to heal from the devastation of your r/s. Do your best not to act on your anger, however. There's a small part of you that believes that acting on it will help reduce your pain - but it won't. It might, in fact, make it worse.

  

[Nuitari]

Maybe you need a new therapist? Maybe this one isn't addressing the things you need addressed?  I find it very difficult to talk to anyone about it.

Sense starting this thread. My T and I have talked about how I feel like I'm making no progress, and she feels that its time to go in a different direction in our sessions. My T is great. She's not the problem. Its me. I think a big part of my problem is that I started therapy already with my mind made up that I'm going to contact my ex's husband and tell him everything. Looking back, I think what I was initially seeking from my T was permission to do it. It didn't work out that way, and now its taking a huge effort on my part to let go of that thought.

[jhkbuzz]

Maybe you need a new therapist? Maybe this one isn't addressing the things you need addressed?  I find it very difficult to talk to anyone about it.

Sense starting this thread. My T and I have talked about how I feel like I'm making no progress, and she feels that its time to go in a different direction in our sessions. My T is great. She's not the problem. Its me. I think a big part of my problem is that I started therapy already with my mind made up that I'm going to contact my ex's husband and tell him everything. Looking back, I think what I was initially seeking from my T was permission to do it. It didn't work out that way, and now its taking a huge effort on my part to let go of that thought.

Yeah... .I've continued reading all the posts in this thread and I've picked up on that.

My sense is that you want him to feel the same level of pain that you do. The unspoken assumption is that dropping a pain bomb on him will lessen your pain. But it won't.

My sense of how "unfair" it all was stuck with me for a very, very long time - so I understand. You're suffering deeply and you want to do something - ANYTHING - to reduce the pain. Sending him the letter won't do it for you. Unfortunately, what's needed is time to heal. And restraint to refrain from doing anything that will keep you embroiled in the drama.

[Nuitari]

The consensus seems to be to do what's best for You.
Honestly, that might be to send the letter. It's your move to make.
Not being heard/respected/understood can hurt, and keeps some stuck.
Looking ahead, a few years let's say, will it be better for you to have sent it?
Will it have helped you speak up for yourself, create more closure, etc?
Even if it's a temporarily 'wrong' move, another life lesson faced... .

Some days I can't shake the feeling that contacting him is what is best for me, regardless of what follows. But other days I see this as throwing my job away again. My new employers know that I was fired from my last job, and they were nice enough not ask me why. I feel like they're giving me a chance to redeem myself. That is very important to me too. Which of these is a bigger priority for me seems to change from one day to the next.  I keep telling myself to wait several years before sending that letter. I don't know how the school would react if the husband called them right now, but I can't imagine the school caring that much about something that happened, say, ten years ago. Right now my only consolation is telling myself that I'll call or write him someday, after the dust has had time to settle. But its going to be hard waiting that long. I know myself well enough to know that I'll never have any peace until I send it.

But I'll admit, though, that there is plus side to not contacting him, and that is that my ex has no idea (as far as I know) where I work, and I don't want to give her any extra motivation to find out. She was always so possessive and controlling, and its kind of nice knowing that she doesn't have a clue where I am now. In that regard, I feel free.

[Reforming]

Hi Nuitari,

My apologies if I made assumptions about what happened with your job.

I think jhkbuzz has offered some good insights too. All we offer is our opinions and support. Nobody else can really step in your shoes or tell you what to do.

But a lot of people here are really rooting for you and want things to work out well.

For a long time I felt very angry about my ex and my replacement. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts even though they betrayed their partners and families they were both promoted and they're now together.

When I allowed myself to dwell on that it was very easy to slip into anger and resentment. But whenever this happens I remind myself of the reality of my relationship with my ex. There's was a lot of darkness, pain and hurt. I don't believe that that will magically disappear in a new relationship, especially one that has the added emotional baggage of a divorce.

But here's  the thing. Even if they are happy together. I'm ok with that now. It's taken me a lot of time and effort to accept that the most important thing is that I wasn't happy with her.  Your new employers sounds like decent people and so do you.

I'd offer one other thought on therapy. When I first started working with a T  I wanted the pain to excised and removed. I wanted to be healed, remade.

What I've come to realise is that moving forward is about learning to live with the pain and grief. Over time it has lessened and becomes quieter but it will probably always be a part of me. And that's not a bid thing because it's become the voice of wisdom whispering in my ear.

Big hugs

Reforming

[Nuitari]

The time came (in therapy) that I stopped talking so much about my ex; when I started to look inward and my own personal history and "stuff" that needed to be dealt with and healed. But I "drove" that timetable - my therapist never did. She always said, "No wine before its time." She repeated it when I felt like it was taking me "too long" to get over the r/s. And she let me keep talking about the r/s for as long as I needed. It was almost like getting poison out of my system.

Its funny you should mention this. In my last session, my therapist mentioned how we need to move the discussion to something else other than how I've been so hurt, etc. Its all I want to talk about. But she says that indulging it that is keeping me stuck, and so we need to start focusing on other things. I get her point, but most days I'm too angry to talk about, or care about, other things. I'm left with this overpowering need to do something. I went through something horrendous, but I feel like I never had any emotional reaction to it, and I still need to have my reaction. I feel like I could have moved on so much easier if I had just blown my top first. I feel like I still need to do that. I'm really kicking myself now for not contacting the husband before I getting this great job. At least then I wouldn't have had anything to lose, and I think I would be in a much better place now. After everything I've been through, I just feel like I'm entitled to some kind of emotional outburst. I never had one, and its slowly eating away at me.

One other thing that really helped me was the recognition that "I am not my thoughts." I learned to observe my thoughts - and even my emotions at times - in a detached sort of way, especially when I was starting to get worked up. I got curious - and tried to identify triggers. "Hmmmm... .why am I suddenly feeling angry today?" When I got curious I would almost always be able to trace back and identify the trigger (song on the radio, passed by a place we used to go to together) and it would somehow help me calm down. I began to notice my thoughts (especially the ones that "my life is s&*t and hers (with her rebound r/s) is awesome" and began actively stopping them. "That's not the story" I would sometimes say out loud. "These thoughts are just thoughts and I can choose to stop investing in the ones that don't build me up." I began to take care of myself - and that included making sure to not allow self defeating thoughts to get very far.

My therapist is also stressing the importance of thought control. I can see the wisdom in everything she says, but I'm still too angry to control my thoughts. She says I need to make a conscious effort to direct my thoughts to other things, like my new job and what that means to me, or the possibility of future relationships. I have many OCD tendencies, and she says it is my OCD that is keeping me stuck in an endless cycle of bad thoughts. She's shown me techniques for helping me break that cycle, but its so hard to do them when I'm livid. I feel like I still haven't calmed down enough to benefit much from the therapy.

[Nuitari]

My apologies if I made assumptions about what happened with your job.

No biggie. When I have the time to devote to it, I would like to type a long post telling of the circumstances leading to my being fired. That is a long story, and one that I myself don't have all the answers to. At least if I had still been sleeping with his wife when he called the school, that would make so much more sense. I'm not sure I would even feel much anger at him under those circumstances. But as it is, I'm still very confused about what happened. I can completely understand the school's reason for letting me go. But his actions were completely unwarranted.

I'd offer one other thought on therapy. When I first started working with a T  I wanted the pain to excised and removed. I wanted to be healed, remade.

What I've come to realise is that moving forward is about learning to live with the pain and grief. Over time it has lessened and becomes quieter but it will probably always be a part of me. And that's not a bid thing because it's become the voice of wisdom whispering in my ear.

My T is telling me the same thing, that the pain isn't going to go away, that I'll have to learn to accept it as part of me and live with it. But I don't know if I can do that. "Pain" doesn't even come close to describe what I'm feeling. I've been in therapy for months now, and I still haven't found a way to even articulate to my T (or anyone here) what is wrong with me. Something happened to me, something bad.  I've been damaged in a very deep way somehow. There is more involved than just pain and anger. This experience did something to me, and I still haven't even begun to understand what that is. I just know that something really bad has happened inside me, and it has to be fixed, because there is absolutely no way I can live out the rest of my life feeling this way.

[jhkbuzz]

... ."Pain" doesn't even come close to describe what I'm feeling. I've been in therapy for months now, and I still haven't found a way to even articulate to my T (or anyone here) what is wrong with me. Something happened to me, something bad.  I've been damaged in a very deep way somehow. There is more involved than just pain and anger. This experience did something to me, and I still haven't even begun to understand what that is. I just know that something really bad has happened inside me, and it has to be fixed, because there is absolutely no way I can live out the rest of my life feeling this way.

Your words ^ resonate with me a LOT because my pain was unbearable too. It took me about a year to understand that all of the intense pain that I was feeling was not solely about my ex. Somehow, for reasons I still don't completely understand, the end of the r/s blew open a door - a portal - to previously unexplored childhood pain within me. In some ways it was a relief when I finally recognized that what I was feeling was not ALL about her. That's about the time that I started turning the focus on myself, to work on resolving some of that unresolved pain.

If I had to guess, I would say that the same thing has happened to you.

[Nuitari]

Reforming, I would like to go back to a comment you made earlier and give my take on it.

- and my immediate focus was to end her relationship with him and stop any future contact.

I feel like no one I discuss this with, including my T, sees the situation in the same way I do, and I'm beginning to think that its due to a difference in philosophies. Was forbidding your ex from contacting her affair partner your job? People who enter a marriage do so of their own free will, and they make vows to be faithful to their partners of their own free will. When we enter a marriage, its our responsibility to uphold our vows. But is it our responsibility to force our partners to do the same? I don't think so. That is their responsibility. So why put that burden on your shoulders? If you feel like you have to force your partner to be faithful, hasn't the marriage (as a lifelong vow between two consenting adults) already failed in some sense? That's how I see things.

The reason I bring this up is because I can't help but view my ex's husband's actions as completely misguided, while everyone around me seems to understand them. My ex did not play a passive role in the affair. She even initiated it. By only focusing on me and telling me to "stop pursuing" his wife, isn't he objectifying her? I'm not saying he should view me as innocent or anything, but shouldn't his anger be directed at her? She's the one who broke vows to him, not me. But he seemed so willing to forgive her actions, while I am seen as the villain who was hell bent on destroying his marriage. It doesn't make sense. When we discover that our partner has been cheating on us, and we direct all of our anger out on the third party, aren't we, on some level, objectifying our cheating spouse? It seems like marriage gives people the license to stop thinking on a certain level. My ex was never an object to me, or some prize that I needed to win over. I always saw her as a thinking adult, someone who was in a bad marriage and had made the decision, on her own, to get out of it. That was the picture that was painted for me anyway. Given that, this whole notion that I was actively trying to destroy his marriage, and "steal" his wife from him is completely absurd to me.

[Larmoyant]

Hi Nuitari, it sounds to me as if he's scapegoating you as opposed to objectifying her. Perhaps in order to stay with her, he needs an outlet, someone else to blame (you) so it works between them. In his eyes maybe she needs to be the 'innocent' party taken advantage of by you, not that you did this by any means, but maybe that's what he needs to believe in order to make it work between them. You may unfortunately represent 'the symbolic bearer of her misdeed' allowing him to remain in the marriage?

[Nuitari]

You just summed up why it is soo tempting to expose her actions to him. He ruined my life during a time when all I wanted was to disentangle myself from her, and now I feel obligated to ruin his. I still have every email she's ever sent me, and I sometimes think about forwarding them all to him, because they paint a pretty accurate picture of what was really going on, and given that they are in her words, its something he's not going to be able to deny.

[Larmoyant]

I believe denial can be very strong. I wonder if at some level he does know what really went on? Is it possible do you think that even if you did send the emails that he might choose not to read them?

[steelwork]

now I feel obligated to ruin his.  

Curious: really obligated?

Nuitari, as a woman who had an affair (with life-altering, disastrous results), I can tell you that I agree with your assessment that it makes no sense to blame my affair partner. If, hypothetically, my situation matched yours and my bf had found out about my affair, I can't imagine that he would try to ruin my affair partner's life. I sympathize with your ex's husband, yes, in the abstract--which is to say that I can imagine the emotions behind his actions. I think possibly you're mistaking that sympathy (from others) as signing off on what he did, which it is not. I UNDERSTAND how it happened, but I don't CONDONE it. Far from it.

If the man I cheated on were the kind of person who blamed my affair partner and went after him, I would never have been with him to begin with. I see what you're saying about objectifying, I think--it's as though he's not giving his wife credit for being sentient and acting on her own desires. This is what it boils down to: the two of them--your ex and her husband--both strike me as toxic and effed up people. Never mind whether karma will take care of him or whether they deserve each other--they strike me as people who I would advise you to distance yourself from as thoroughly as possible. Consider your future and what you want it to be and who you want to be in it. Them? Really?

[Nuitari]

Steelwork,

Thank you for that post. Its nice knowing someone gets where I'm coming from. I don't pretend to be innocent, but given that she initiated the whole thing, I just think its weird that he would focus on me as the root cause of his marital problems while she is absolved of any blame. The vibe that I'm getting from most people I talk to, including my T sometimes, is that they see the situation as me doing something to him first, and so he retaliated. I don't get that. His real problem was with her, not me. They may have been married, but that doesn't make them one entity. They are still two individuals. So I don't see it as his place to tell me to stop "pursuing" his wife. It was her place to tell me "I'm married, and I'm going to be faithful to my husband." That was not her mentality, and that should have been his primary concern. For him to go over her head and assume the job of ending contact with me for her is to objectify her. Its like he's saying he doesn't really care about her own happiness or desires.  

If, hypothetically, my situation matched yours and my bf had found out about my affair, I can't imagine that he would try to ruin my affair partner's life.

Here's the thing that bothers me the most. My ex's husband apparently never knew that there had ever been an affair. If he had discovered that we had had an affair, became so overcome with emotion, and called the school, at least that is something I can understand. But he doesn't even know, which makes his actions only that much more shallow and deplorable to me. He evidently thought I was out to ruin his marriage, but ironically, I probably still can, and its hard to just sit back and not reveal everything to him when he didn't hesitate to try to ruin my life.  

If the man I cheated on were the kind of person who blamed my affair partner and went after him, I would never have been with him to begin with. I see what you're saying about objectifying, I think--it's as though he's not giving his wife credit for being sentient and acting on her own desires.

Exactly! My ex should have been offended by his actions. But instead they only seemed to convince her that he loves her. You are right that both of them are very effed up people. The whole time she was seeing me, she would go on and on about how her husband didn't love her. And that single destructive act was all it took to prove his love for her. The idea that I was nothing more than a sacrificial lamb that brought them closer together makes me sick. My job meant everything to me. But it was used for their benefit, while I was left with nothing, and they get to walk away now holding hands? And I'm expected to just sit back and watch and keep what information that might very well destroy their relationship to myself? How can anyone with any self-respect do that? This isn't just about me being angry and getting revenge. Its about me preserving some sense of self-worth. I was just a pawn in some sick game of theirs, and now they get to walk away?

[C.Stein]

Nuitari,

I have been following your story from the beginning.  I have seen how you have progressed, both in healing and in thinking.  I think it is time for someone to say what hasn't been said.  I apologize in advance if this sounds harsh.

This whole issue isn't really about him getting you fired.  I think it is safe to say if it was a colleague or another student that alerted administration you wouldn't be seeking revenge or looking to get even. 

The fact of the matter is, you got yourself fired.  You freely chose to break school policy knowing it could lead to your termination.  This is 100% your responsibility, the vehicle by which the termination came about is unimportant.  I know you understand this but you continue to use the loss of the job to mask the real reason you want to make him pay.

You also chose to get involved with a married woman, it does not matter who initiated it.  This is also 100% your responsibility.  You know you should not have gotten involved with her, but you did anyhow.  Perhaps some of your issues here is you haven't quite accepted that you could have prevented all of this by simply saying NO.  I can completely understand why you didn't but it doesn't change the fact that you had a choice.

So lets be honest.  He did take something from you but it wasn't your job ... .it was her.  What you have written over the months has clearly shown me that you are completely stuck on the fact that he took her away from you and you want to make him pay for it.   I see a lot of ... .if I can't have her neither can he in your writing lately.  The fact is you never had her to begin with.  It does not matter what she told you in order to justify her own actions, she was married and until that changed she could never really be with you.

You have gone to great lengths to refine your rationalizations in order to justify this thinking, now including how you think he should have behaved.  You know it is against your character to seek this payback, as is evidenced by your continued struggle with this, yet you continue to look for a reason to do so.  If you look carefully at what you have written over the months this will jump out at you clear as day ... .start with your last post.

I understand how hard it is to let go of the dream of a future with her.  There was once a time when it all looked so promising and the way she made you feel so wanted, needed, special and loved is something we are all too familiar with.  You miss this, you wanted to be the person to walk away holding hands and it is tearing you apart that it isn't you ... .even if you don't want to admit that to yourself.

[Larmoyant]

They may have been married, but that doesn't make them one entity. They are still two individuals. So I don't see it as his place to tell me to stop "pursuing" his wife. It was her place to tell me "I'm married, and I'm going to be faithful to my husband." That was not her mentality, and that should have been his primary concern. For him to go over her head and assume the job of ending contact with me for her is to objectify her. Its like he's saying he doesn't really care about her own happiness or desires.

.

. He evidently thought I was out to ruin his marriage, but ironically, I probably still can, and its hard to just sit back and not reveal everything to him when he didn't hesitate to try to ruin my life.  

.

Nuitari, can I just say that I'm sorry you lost your job and I'm sorry you are hurting. Your ex's husband clearly took things too far. What I don't understand however, is why doesn't he get a say in all this? I agree that they are individuals, two different people, however, their marriage bond/contract connects them as a unit. At least that's how I see it. So there's him, her and their relationship. He warned you to stop pursuing her as he was trying to protect the relationship. I just don't see it as him objectifying her. I mean doesn't he have a say in this? It's his life too. If not, why not? I'm not saying he had a right to destroy your job. Not at all. He took it way too far, but why didn't he have a right to tell you to stop pursing his wife and by extension protect his marriage? I hope I haven't hurt you further and sorry if I've misunderstood. It's just that if I thought someone was out to ruin my marriage, a marriage I was very invested in, I'd most likely ask them to stop pursing my partner.

[steelwork]

Steelwork,

Thank you for that post. Its nice knowing someone gets where I'm coming from. I don't pretend to be innocent, but given that she initiated the whole thing, I just think its weird that he would focus on me as the root cause of his marital problems while she is absolved of any blame.

I really do get it.

Here is where I part ways with you, though, fwiw:

I'm expected to just sit back and watch and keep what information that might very well destroy their relationship to myself? How can anyone with any self-respect do that? This isn't just about me being angry and getting revenge. Its about me preserving some sense of self-worth. I was just a pawn in some sick game of theirs, and now they get to walk away?

I don't see how your self-worth is indexed to your exacting revenge. I'ma challenge you to explain that to me.

[Nuitari]

So lets be honest.  He did take something from you but it wasn't your job ... .it was her.  What you have written over the months has clearly shown me that you are completely stuck on the fact that he took her away from you and you want to make him pay for it.   I see a lot of ... .if I can't have her neither can he in your writing lately.  The fact is you never had her to begin with.  It does not matter what she told you in order to justify her own actions, she was married and until that changed she could never really be with you.

You don't understand. No one does. He didn't take her from me. True enough, I never had her, but neither did he. No one has her. Again, she's not an object that can be "taken" or owned. She is a thinking individual who chose to remain with him, even after she told me so many times that she loved me and could never be him if he ever called the school. But it was all a lie. She made a fool out of me. I was conned. And then she moves on and doesn't have to accept any accountability for her actions. I feel like I can make that happen. She deliberately used me, and I want to see it blow up in her face. She wears a mask, and I want to take it off and show him who she really is.

And you are right when you say that it is my fault that I lost my job. That's all on me. I knew from the very beginning that I was risking my job, but at the time that was ok because I thought I found something better! The fact that I made poor choices in no way excuses the inhuman things she did. She deliberately mislead me, and I have every right to be angry about that. She played with my feelings. I was used. If her husband can lash out at me under those circumstances then he is just as shallow and screwed up as she is. Shouldn't he be disturbed that he is married to a woman who can do those things? No. All of his anger was at me. I don't think I can be blamed for feeling victimized by that sociopath (I'm talking about her, not him), so I hope you can understand my frustration at him casting me in role of the villain, especially when this happened during a time when I was trying to put as much distance between myself and her as possible.

You also chose to get involved with a married woman, it does not matter who initiated it.

I doesn't matter? Really? Are you telling me that he doesn't care one way or the other who initiated the relationship? Maybe I'm just weird, but if I were married and I found out my wife was seeing another man, I think I would want to know how it started. I think it would hurt me more to know that it began with her pursuing him instead of vice versa. For him to not care is very Neanderthal-like. Its like he's seeing her as a piece of property, not a thinking human being. In doing this he's essentially absolving her of accountability, and someone needs to hold her accountable.

I understand how hard it is to let go of the dream of a future with her.  There was once a time when it all looked so promising and the way she made you feel so wanted, needed, special and loved is something we are all too familiar with.  You miss this, you wanted to be the person to walk away holding hands and it is tearing you apart that it isn't you ... .even if you don't want to admit that to yourself.

Whenever you and I communicate, C.Stein, I always feel like we're having two different conversations. I want to make one thing very clear here. I don't want her back. I've gone well over a year being NC, despite repeated efforts on her part to reach out to me. Does that sound like someone who wants her back? If there is one area where I can honestly say that I have improved, it has been detaching from her. I can see her now for who and what she really is, and I've grown too strong now to get drawn back into her games. What I cannot detach from is the hate. Discussing all of this with my T has only made me more aware of how evil my ex is, and it only makes my hate grow. I don't know if you've ever experienced hate, but it has a way of pushing you into doing destructive things, and I've spent two years trying to resist that urge as best I can. I want that marriage to end, not because of any lingering feelings I have for me ex, but because I just want the world to make sense again. This world is a truly sick place if they can be happy together after what happened. Why is it so hard for anyone to see that?

C.Stein, I appreciate that you've followed my posts from the beginning, and also for all the advice you've given me. But please keep in mind that you can't psychoanalyze a stranger just from reading posts on a message board. Whenever we exchange words, I always get the vibe that you think you know my inner workings better than myself, and you think you have to explain them to me. You don't know what I'm feeling or what I'm thinking. The truth is, things aren't nearly as simple as your making them out to be, and I feel like you're choosing to interpret my posts in only one way. I'm sure it isn't helping that I don't communicate myself very well, but I can honestly say that you are way off the mark with some of your observations.

[Nuitari]

What you have written over the months has clearly shown me that you are completely stuck on the fact that he took her away from you and you want to make him pay for it.

Can you elaborate on this comment, C.Stein? How exactly did he take her away from me? Can you explain that to me? I feel like I'm the only one on this planet that isn't seeing her as a thing that can be taken. She could have left him when I lost my job, right? I mean, she has freewill doesn't she? I don't understand how a thinking adult can be "taken" by another. Why is everyone looking at it that way? This is actually a big part of why I'm so angry. My ex was married and decided to go after another man. She lies to him to get what she wants, tells him she's in love with him, how she never knew what love was until she met him, how she doesn't love her husband and just wants to be free from that marriage. All this happens, and the husband gets angry at the man for trying to "steal" his wife. It doesn't make sense. I don't think it ever will.

[Nuitari]

Nuitari, can I just say that I'm sorry you lost your job and I'm sorry you are hurting. Your ex's husband clearly took things too far. What I don't understand however, is why doesn't he get a say in all this? I agree that they are individuals, two different people, however, their marriage bond/contract connects them as a unit. At least that's how I see it. So there's him, her and their relationship. He warned you to stop pursuing her as he was trying to protect the relationship.

There are three things I want to address here. First, at the time he called the school, I considered the whole matter closed. I was no longer a threat to his marriage. I still haven't told that story in its entirety, but she hurt me in a way that I don't think I'll ever fully come back from. I had never been so hurt by someone in my life. I never wanted to see her again. I just wanted to forget that I ever knew her. And then he decides to call the school. It was senseless thing to do. Afterwards, my ex actually had the nerve to tell me that I need to move on. That's all I was trying to do.

Secondly, if he did indeed act out of a desire to "protect the relationship," it was a futile effort because he has no relationship. What he has is not a relationship. It's something sick. She cheated on him with no remorse. When her husband isn't available to her, she'll use whoever is in her closest proximity for sex. She latter admitted to me that something happened between her and his brother! He doesn't know. She has no sense of decency or respect for other people and he wants to damage someone's career so that he can remain in that pathetic excuse of a relationship. What exactly is he trying to protect?

Thirdly, and I feel like I can't stress this enough, she's an individual. She didn't play a passive role in all this. Why did he insist on putting the spotlight on me? She and I both made bad decisions, but being that she is his partner, it seems like he'd be more concerned with her decisions instead of mine, a stranger. They're married. Shouldn't her decisions matter to him? That's what I mean by objectifying. No matter what her actions were, they were somehow my fault in his eyes. Its like he was incapable of wrapping his brain around the idea that she made her own decisions. She actually wanted to have sex with me while he was unable for three months due to health issues. She had no problem telling me this to my face. Meanwhile he is telling me to leave his wife alone because they are trying to save their marriage! Maybe he was trying to save their marriage. She certainly wasn't. Protecting his relationship by lashing out at me was misguided because I was not what was wrong with their relationship. It was her. Can anyone blame me for not wanting to expose her under these circumstances?

[Nuitari]

I don't see how your self-worth is indexed to your exacting revenge. I'ma challenge you to explain that to me.

Maybe "self-worth" was the wrong word to use there. How about self-respect? There are so many things I still haven't even shared here. I was used and manipulated in so many ways. Looking back, my ex never even denied it when I called her out on it. I took a lot of crap and abuse from her, and then I was the recipient of his anger, most of which should have been directed at her. I just took it. Days after losing my job, my ex actually made the comment to me that she couldn't believe how calm I was about it all. She said "If it were me, I'd be screaming my head off at me." No one with any self-respect would be calm under those circumstances. She treated me in ways that no human being should ever treat another. And I just let it slide. And she gets to just walk away. I want justice. I want her to be held accountable for her actions. If not accountable to me, then to him. He should be just as hurt and angry with her as I am. About six months after losing my job I threatened to call him, and she said "Why can't you just let this go? My husband has." OF COURSE he's let it go! That's because she never told him the full truth. He doesn't have to live with all the horrible facts that I do. Why? Because his feelings are protected. I, on the other hand, had to lose my job, had my heart torn out by her, but I'm expected to just "let it go." I'm a human being too. That job meant just as much to me as his marriage did to him. But she excuses him for acting out on his anger, but I'm expected to just take whatever comes my way and then "let it go."

Something I hadn't realized until beginning therapy is that I have a big problem feeling like other people are deciding for me how I feel, and that's a big part of my frustration. Its why I get upset here when it looks like members are trying to decide for me what my feelings and motivations are without even knowing me.  My ex's husband just decided for me that I was pursuing his wife, that I was trying to "steal" her. He went through ridiculous lengths to rationalize this. I don't like admitting this, because I'm a grown man, but she made me fall apart and sob uncontrollably like an infant. I had never been so hurt by anyone in my life. He actually accused me of putting on an act to get sympathy from her. That's a really insulting thing to say. I'm a human being. But he made me into this one-dimensional character whose only purpose in life was to steal his wife from him. My every action was not to steal his wife. He doesn't get to decide for me what my feelings and motivations were. I don't like being the scapegoat for all of his problems with his marriage, all because I'm intimidated by what else he might do if I contact him. Can you see how this make me feel even worse?

[steelwork]

Maybe "self-worth" was the wrong word to use there. How about self-respect?

I understand why you would feel that way, but I just want to suggest that from the outside it doesn't look like that. I think it shows more self-respect to not get sucked in any more than you have. It's not as satisfying, in some ways, but in no way does it look like a lack of self-respect, at least to me. I see a perhaps slower and less immediately rewarding path to self-respect via self-control.

Something I hadn't realized until beginning therapy is that I have a big problem feeling like other people are deciding for me how I feel, and that's a big part of my frustration.

Yes. This was a HUGE breakthrough for me. I was not permitted to have my real feelings as a child, so people telling me how I am allowed to feel is a HUGE trigger for me. One of the worst things my ex said to me at the end was, "If you think you're any kind of victim, you can go eff yourself." That and "You have no right to feel blindsided."

Just wanted to say I understand.

[Nuitari]

Thank you for understanding.

I understand why you would feel that way, but I just want to suggest that from the outside it doesn't look like that. I think it shows more self-respect to not get sucked in any more than you have.

It doesn't feel like self-respect from where I'm sitting. I was emotionally violated, and I just let the person responsible walk away. Its like getting beat up, and just taking it. You make no efforts at defending yourself. You don't even tell your attacker to stop. You don't do anything but stand there with a stupid grin on your face while your attacker beats you to bloody pulp and then walks away. That's how I feel. I'm guilty of a lot of things, and I can own up to those, but I am NOT guilty of the things that her husband, or the school, accused me of. I never even tried to vindicate myself. I remained silent and let myself be a scapegoat, all so I could protect someone who used me like a tool and then discarded me.

Soon I would like to tell the story of the circumstances surrounding how and why the husband came to call the school. I keep putting it off because that is going be a very lengthy post, and to be honest its something I don't like revisiting. But when I do have the time to devote to it, I would like to share that. Once reading it, I hope that it will become more clear to everyone why I'm feeling the way I do.

[steelwork]

I remained silent and let myself be a scapegoat, all so I could protect someone who used me like a tool and then discarded me.

I t sounds like you're regretting not defending yourself properly to the school. That moment has passed. I don't think you can get it back. I'm sorry. It's gonna have to be a learning experience. Bringing more drama upon yourself and staying engaged with them via revenge will not make up for it.

Again, you have my sympathy.

[jhkbuzz]

Nutari, I hope you don't mind my saying so, but the more I read your posts the more it appears that your anger today, justifiable though it is, is connected to a deeper, older pain that pre-dates your ex.

Something I hadn't realized until beginning therapy is that I have a big problem feeling like other people are deciding for me how I feel, and that's a big part of my frustration.

Was there someone in your FOO (family of origin) who "decided for [you] how you felt?" I suspect that maybe there was.

I don't like admitting this, because I'm a grown man, but she made me fall apart and sob uncontrollably like an infant.

Me too. And when it was a reoccurring event, it started to dawn on me that my grief wasn't all about my ex.

I had never been so hurt by anyone in my life.

I bet that's not true by a long shot.

I was emotionally violated, and I just let the person responsible walk away. Its like getting beat up, and just taking it. You make no efforts at defending yourself. You don't even tell your attacker to stop. You don't do anything but stand there with a stupid grin on your face while your attacker beats you to bloody pulp and then walks away.

 

[Nuitari]

Nutari, I hope you don't mind my saying so, but the more I read your posts the more it appears that your anger today, justifiable though it is, is connected to a deeper, older pain that pre-dates your ex.

You know, I keep feeling like what happened was the final straw. So you may be on to something. I don't why I feel that way, though.
 

Was there someone in your FOO (family of origin) who "decided for [you] how you felt?" I suspect that maybe there was.

Honestly, no. At least nothing is coming to mind. But there was always a feeling/fear of being controlled. My T thinks that this is related to my OCD and my need to control my surroundings.

I bet that's not true by a long shot.

I have to strongly disagree with this one.  

[Nuitari]

I've been feeling bad today and just need to vent a little. I keep thinking about the day the husband and I met face to face. He pointed a finger at me and said "Stay away from my wife!" How did he think I was supposed to do that? She visited my office every day, despite my requests that she stop. I stopped staying at my apartment altogether. I was sleeping on my sister's cough. What else did he want from me? Was I supposed to quit my job so as to avoid her? I feel like this guy wanted me to lose my job because his wife didn't have any boundaries. Granted, for a while I did have proper boundaries either, and wasn't adamant enough that she stay away. But its just eating away at me that this guy saw me as a threat to his marriage. You know what the really ironic thing is? Not long before being fired, I actually considered calling him and politely asking him to tell her to stay away. At the time he called the school, she was no longer even pretending to consider leaving him, and I accepted that. I just wanted the drama to end. I wasn't a threat to his marriage, so why couldn't I keep my job? Its so unfair. Everyone keeps telling me I'm not a victim, but its impossible for me to see it that way.