I'm honestly repulsed by her

[alleyesonme]

physical abuse tends to be the number one thing you want to nip in the bud. its really hard to improve anything else with that going on. it sounds like it has been going on for a while, and that does mean that nipping it in the bud will be more of a challenge. id encourage you to build a strategy here.

when was the last time this occurred? how have you responded historically? would you say its gotten better or worse over time?

alleyesonme, if youll trust me, these can be two of the most important articles that you will ever read, anywhere. i really hope you will take the time to read them.

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle
https://thebowencenter.org/theory/eight-concepts/

to be clear, a karpman drama triangle, and triangulation as bowen describes it, are not exactly the same thing. all of it revolves around conflict, and the piece on bowens website talks about it as it applies to a family, and how that can play out.

its a serious rock and a hard place, i know. but likewise, its a source of serious conflict between you and your wife, and make no mistake, that sends a complicated message to your daughter, that will only grow more complicated as she grows older.

there isnt a right or wrong here, except that the current path is probably not sustainable. i would likewise open up a new thread, and work toward a plan on this.

getting the relationship on a healthier trajectory can mean a lot of things. it first, usually means tackling one or two major issues in the relationship, even if there are three, or four, or six, or more. if youre trying to improve or reconcile the relationship, it tends to mean working toward getting on the same page, no small task. you will need a lot of feedback, a lot of support, and there will be a lot of trial and error. given where the relationship is at, you will by no means start with a willing and cooperative partner. thats not to say its impossible; just really hard work.

assuming it is impossible, and you resolve to leave the relationship, youre going to be coparenting for a long time, and it pays to know the tools, for your own peace, and your daughters.

i think this is a good start. you have different styles, attitudes, approaches to parenting. thats important to recognize. its important to understand. and its important to be realistic in terms of whether this is a fundamental, irresolvable difference, or whether the two can be bridged, and whether or not the two of you can work toward the same page. and that will require give and take on both sides.

detaching looks a lot like accepting that things wont change, using the tools, doing damage control.

improving is, again, given everything else in play, a hard road. it means building trust when there isnt any, hasnt been any. doable? it can be, for sure. but youre starting out from a place where the two of you are enemies on the matter. improving means having realistic expectations in terms of both the potential, and also the time line. it involves a huge amount of listening, revisiting, and an open mind. if you try to talk to your wife about this tomorrow and get on the same page, things would probably erupt. it wouldnt necessarily mean there isnt progress or that progress cant be made. it would be a reflection of the extent to which the relationship has devolved.

Regarding the physical abuse, I fully realize that even one time is completely uncalled for and crosses the line. That being said, it isn't nearly as common as the verbal abuse is. The last time it happened was a push about 2-3 weeks ago. She has slapped me once, and she has thrown dangerous objects at my head twice. The rest of the instances have been pushes/elbows to my torso or slamming doors into me. Still very much crossing the line, but nothing where I've felt in danger.

Every time it happens, I immediately verbalize what she just did and try to create some distance from her ASAP. She has apologized after the fact every single time, but is completely incapable of controlling herself in the heat of the moment. As to whether it's gotten better or worse over time, that's hard to say. The first instance was less than a year into our relationship, well before we even got engaged. With her mental illness, I think there will always be some potential for her to get physical with me until she really commits to therapy to begin healing from BPD.

Thank you for the articles. Throughout the pregnancy, and even more so once we found out we were having a girl, my wife continued to harp on me by saying that she (my wife) still needs to be my top priority even after our daughter is born, and that she (my wife) still needs to be "my girl," and not my daughter. The notion that an adult would feel "threatened" by a baby was stunning to me.

It obviously hasn't played out that way, as one is a delusional monster, and the other is a beautiful, innocent child that makes my day whenever I'm with her. Regarding the triangulation article, I do think there's an element of my wife feeling some semblance of rejection because I enjoy my daughter's company much more than hers. That probably does lead to an increase in conflict in our marriage. However, there was still plenty of conflict and dysfunction before she even got pregnant, and I have no idea how to fix the current problem (my wife feeling rejected) without neglecting my daughter. If my wife has a completely childish and selfish complaint, should I sacrifice my relationship with my daughter to a certain degree to help ease my wife's worries? Would that even get us anywhere? This may not be realistic in this situation, but isn't the most obvious solution here for my wife to just function like a normal adult?

Also really enjoyed the drama triangle article. Lots of great info and advice there. I need to bring this article up in my next therapy session to get some actionable tips on what I can do to get to the middle of the triangle.

When you suggest that I open up a new thread to begin working on a plan, can you elaborate as to what you mean? A plan for improving the marriage? It wasn't totally clear to me.

Very good point about starting by tackling just one or two issues. Quick aside, but do you (or anyone else here) think seeking marriage counseling when one partner has BPD and isn't doing anything to address it can be productive? I ask because we've been to three different therapists, and for various reasons, it hasn't gotten us anywhere. One of them saw the truth and called my wife out for her inappropriate behavior, so she said he was "ganging up on her" and refused to go back. Another one just wasn't very good (we both agreed on that). And the third was decent, but I don't think marriage counseling is the answer when one partner is so delusional, so there was no ability to dig deeper and make significant changes. This isn't your typical marriage where both people can work on meeting in the middle more frequently in order to increase the harmony. My in-laws have urged us to go back, but our problems are so much deeper than that, so I don't see the point. Curious to hear if any of you guys have had success with that.

I do think some of the conflict caused by different parenting styles and different upbringings can gradually improve as we talk things out, and some of those conflicts actually have improved a bit. So that's one factor that gives me a bit of hope for the long run - we're pretty good at coparenting right now and we're improving. If we stay married, I think most of what we'll do as a parenting couple will be positive. The key will be to really minimize the amount of conflict that takes place in front of our daughter. If we get divorced, I still think we'll both have good intentions as parents, but I do worry about how my wife will act around my daughter without having me as a buffer there.

One additional issue here is that we haven't been intimate at all in 2.5 years. My wife wants that to happen and continues to push for it, and calls me a controlling jerk because I won't do anything with her. But I'm honestly repulsed by her, so there's no way I could do anything physical with her even if I wanted to. I've never cheated on a partner before, and am not planning on starting now. That being said, people have needs, and at some point I'll need to have some sort of fulfillment in that area of my life.

Has anyone here been through an extended drought before?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[alleyesonme]

So All.

  You are in the inquiry of finding out ways this can work.
I have compassion for you. 
After living this, being on this site, working on myself, what I have to share is, support.
Support, things that help, and things I found that don't help me so much.
The other thing I have is a 13 year history.
My ups and downs, the leveling, the everything, all of this can be of use to someone else.
It's useful to me.  I have seen the bad times. They never left completely.  (Now is hard, we are in a strange place.)
I have many many good times.  Those sustain me...those I write in stone.

The one part of my story that is a constant, throughout the ups, downs, betweens, is my recovery.
My work on myself.
Through that lens, I have a life, nothing is impossible, I have tools, happiness, responsibility, appreciation.
I am no longer surviving any thing.
It's a shift in how I live my life.
Prior to recovery, I was a victim of the people, situations, in my life.
I had no power and I was frustrated a lot.

Lots of great info here. I think, to some degree, we all wish that there'd be a day in our life where everything just falls into place and is relatively easy from that point forward. But the reality is that that may not ever happen, so we constantly have to work on ourselves and become a better version of ourselves every single day. What you have done inspires me, and I need to continue to work towards that.

The "Stop Walking on Eggshells" book and this website have really helped shine a light on just how much power I actually have in a situation where I previously felt so powerless. Like you said, being a victim doesn't get you anywhere. I can do this.

[once removed]

Still very much crossing the line, but nothing where I've felt in danger.

thats important, but still something that youre going to need to nip in the bud. you may be right that it will require professional help.

Regarding the triangulation article, I do think there's an element of my wife feeling some semblance of rejection because I enjoy my daughter's company much more than hers. That probably does lead to an increase in conflict in our marriage.

as it would in any marriage, and take into account the conflict that occurs between the two of you over parenting.

im not asking you to think that your wife reacts reasonably to your daughter, or even that she isnt completely over the top.

i am challenging you to put yourself in her shoes, in a scenario where youre the odd man out, and where your style of parenting is called out and knocked down.

However, there was still plenty of conflict and dysfunction before she even got pregnant, and I have no idea how to fix the current problem (my wife feeling rejected) without neglecting my daughter. If my wife has a completely childish and selfish complaint, should I sacrifice my relationship with my daughter to a certain degree to help ease my wife's worries? Would that even get us anywhere? This may not be realistic in this situation, but isn't the most obvious solution here for my wife to just function like a normal adult?

the most obvious solution is for the two of you to work together to get on the same page when it comes to parenting. you are going to have to lead that effort. the dynamic, as it exists, is really ingrained, over years. trust is less than minimal if it exists at all. there arent easy fixes. but fundamentally, its going to have to be an effort that is led by you.

the karpman drama triangle teaches against taking sides in conflict. you have been thinking of this in terms of rescuing your daughter from your wife for a long time; two against one, or for that matter, one against two. the solution is obviously not that you sacrifice your relationship with your daughter for a complaint. its that you (try to) heal your relationship with your wife.

When you suggest that I open up a new thread to begin working on a plan, can you elaborate as to what you mean? A plan for improving the marriage? It wasn't totally clear to me.

Very good point about starting by tackling just one or two issues.

thats what im talking about. tackle the various issues in separate threads. tackle the parenting conflict in one. tackle the physical abuse in another. there may be other issues that merit their own threads as well.

Quick aside, but do you (or anyone else here) think seeking marriage counseling when one partner has BPD and isn't doing anything to address it can be productive? I ask because we've been to three different therapists, and for various reasons, it hasn't gotten us anywhere. One of them saw the truth and called my wife out for her inappropriate behavior, so she said he was "ganging up on her" and refused to go back. Another one just wasn't very good (we both agreed on that). And the third was decent, but I don't think marriage counseling is the answer when one partner is so delusional, so there was no ability to dig deeper and make significant changes. This isn't your typical marriage where both people can work on meeting in the middle more frequently in order to increase the harmony. My in-laws have urged us to go back, but our problems are so much deeper than that, so I don't see the point. Curious to hear if any of you guys have had success with that.

it really depends.

marriage counseling or therapy can make things worse, or it can make things better. and it all depends on the attitude of both parties.

what often happens is that one or both parties enter counseling/therapy with the attitude of fixing the other party, and convincing the counselor/therapist to help save the marriage by fixing the dysfunctional things that the other party brings.

thats when and why it often fails.

i think you, at least in part, have that attitude, that its your wife that needs fixing ("when one is so delusional"), when it is the marriage, the team, that needs fixing. your wife is an extraordinarily difficult person. she may, in fact, be a delusional person. but you will never fix the marriage if you cant work toward beginning to see that she has valid complaints here, underneath it all. and i understand, it takes a lot of work to get to the bottom of what is valid. setting aside our hurts (long enough) to understand their point of view is probably the most challenging, as well as the most necessary aspect of improving our relationships.

if your wife is open to marriage counseling or therapy, i would take another stab at it. i would go in with two goals: to listen and understand, and to rebuild (build?) the partnership. even if the latter fails, the former can help you enormously, even in a divorce process.

a skilled marriage counselor or therapist wont take sides, but they will look to see if one partner needs more validation than the other, and, early on, they will provide it, in order to build trust and establish rapport before challenging that partner. it can be sort of like what you will get on this board.

The key will be to really minimize the amount of conflict that takes place in front of our daughter.

this can be an important, and critical aspect: what takes place in front of your daughter and what doesnt, and accountability around that (your wife may be more prone to break the rules). a motivating factor is that we learn our style of conflict, and how to handle it from our parents, how they interact with each other. the karpman drama triangle teaches this as well.

One additional issue here is that we haven't been intimate at all in 2.5 years. My wife wants that to happen and continues to push for it, and calls me a controlling jerk because I won't do anything with her. But I'm honestly repulsed by her, so there's no way I could do anything physical with her even if I wanted to. I've never cheated on a partner before, and am not planning on starting now. That being said, people have needs, and at some point I'll need to have some sort of fulfillment in that area of my life.

Has anyone here been through an extended drought before?

tons of members have been through an extended drought. sex is a pretty high level need, and it drops off when emotional intimacy and trust drop off. conversely, it builds those things.

im not telling you to stuff your repulsion and make love to your wife. that might be impossible, and it would likely make things worse.

i am suggesting you consider love making as part of your strategy to reconnect, rebuild trust, rebuild the relationship. these things go hand in hand. if the two of you are enjoying intimacy, far easier to talk about the difficult aspects in the afterglow.

[PeteWitsend]

Thank you for the explanation. When you say she worked on herself and then stopped after a month, what was she doing? Was she seeing a therapist and then refused to continue? ...

She promised to work on herself.  She had gone to therapy in the past, though it wasn't exactly a sincere effort, as she "forum shopped" until she found a therapist that would go along with her nonsense and validate her beliefs that I (and before we married, it was her parents) was to blame for all her behavior.  

This time she didn't go back to individual therapy.  Instead we agreed to go to MC again (third time in 4 years, third different counselor), which went sideways quickly when the counselor called her out for her behavior during the sessions, but that's another story...

No, when I called divorce off the first time, she was happy for about a week, then started gradually saying that I was the emotional one, and I had just overreacted to "nothing."  The "nothing" was actually her refusal to let my mom visit (she hadn't seen our kids in over a year), being extremely nasty about it, alleging my mom would abuse our kids, and telling me if I didn't like what she was saying, I should divorce her!  

You make a great point about normalizing her crazy behavior when it's completely unacceptable. I think a lot of us on this site have unintentionally enabled this behavior for a long time, and I know that I'm extremely guilty of doing that. As much as I hate her for being such a monster, I also realize that none of this could have happened if I hadn't enabled it. That's a horrible feeling. …

Don't beat yourself up over it.  I didn't mean to say I enabled her behavior... nor that you do.  Really, pwBPD will act out and in dysfunctional ways whether they're with us, anyone else, or no one at all.  When someone is committed to creating conflict, they will do so, no matter what you say or do.  That's just who they are.  

That's a phenomenal idea to take your kids to a child psychologist to make sure there isn't anything you're missing. Does your ex know they're doing this, and if so, did she try to fight it? Also, as far as you know, has she said anything negative about you to your kids, or has it been mostly amicable in that regard?

So, actually my XW suggested the therapy for our kids, although I was considering it myself.  Wary of the fact that she would use the occasion to again "forum shop" as I mentioned above, I had my attorney have a psychologist he shared office space with vet three child psychologists she trusted, and we let my XW choose from one of those.  And we both agreed to take our kids to see him.

In the event, after 3-4 visits my XW realized she couldn't bully the T or get him to side with her, and angrily stopped going.  She complained about the money.  he was out-of-network...but she picked him(!), so I know that's not the real reason.  

Funny story: she had accidentally paid twice at her last visit, so the T owed her a refund.  The next time I visited, he told me (clearly upset by her behavior) that she was nasty about the refund.  He said something like "I swear I couldn't have gotten her money back to her any faster unless I drove to her house with cash, and she still complained"... I wanted to say, "THERE!  Now you see what I've been dealing with."  

She has absolutely said negative things about me (and my family as well) to my kids since we separated and divorced.  The advice I received was to ask my kids what they thought about this stuff, and whether it was true.  They always say "No."  I tell them their mom has her own opinions and feelings about things, and everyone does, but it's up to them to use their brains and determine what they think is real and true.  The T told me kids aren't as easy to fool as we think.  

And so far (it's about a year since our divorce was finalized, and 1 1/2 years since I moved out and filed) the T has said he sees no cause for concern in my kids.  I'm still taking them for monthly visits, and documenting everything though, expecting it to get worse.  

My situation sounds similar to yours in that the abusive behavior has mostly been directed at me. One issue I'm considering is whether or not to fight for full custody if we end up getting divorced, and those same factors you mentioned have been on my mind.

Looking to a possible post-divorce reality, two issues that really concern me (assuming we have shared custody) are that 1) my daughter could become my wife's BPD target once I'm out of the picture, and no child is equipped to deal with that; and 2) when my wife starts dating again, if she hasn't made any significant breakthroughs, that relationship will be extremely dysfunctional just like our current one is. And what if her partner at that point doesn't handle it as well as I have, and then my daughter ends up getting exposed to an even worse situation than what we currently have?

To be honest, I think a lot of posters here on this site would feel the same way, but I really believe my wife is extremely lucky that she's married to me instead of someone else. What I mean by that is that the vast majority of guys in similar situations would have cheated on her, become physically abusive or left her by now, if not all three. What if her next partner does all three and my daughter is exposed to that? As you can tell, lots of variables here.

I went through a lot of these same feelings & concerns you've expressed here.  

In the end, I made the decision to leave because I couldn't keep the fighting away from my kids.  I'd try, but when my XW would dysregulate, she couldn't control her emotions and would do and say whatever she wanted in that moment.  

I didn't want my kids to grow up thinking it was okay to behave or be treated like that (she was verbally abusive; and also constantly assailing my character and accusing me of cheating or wanting to cheat).  And my kids were getting old enough to be negatively affected by the fighting.  

I read that kids can be okay with one stable parent, giving them unconditional love, and modeling for them how to behave.  And a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist told me divorce is usually easier on younger kids.

So, I basically weighed the harm to the kids that would be caused by the divorce, against the harm of staying in a house and fighting all the time in front of them... and also the harm of them not getting to see their extended family - my family - because my XW was engaged in a campaign to isolate me (and my kids) from them.  

And one other thing in my case: we had brought my XW's mother to live with us.  While she was not exactly a warm person, she was 100 times more pleasant than my XW, and much more stable mentally, so I figured that at least there was another adult in the house.  

That didn't last long, as my XW found a new guy & let him move in a couple months after I moved out.  SUPER trashy.  He apparently hated her mom, and forced her to move out.  So... yeah.  Not great.  Unfortunately, divorce isn't the end of it if you have kids with a pwBPD.  I am just "keeping my powder dry" waiting for more issues to come up.  I know I may have to go back to court and fight for more custody.  

I didn't experience physical abuse like you did though; that's certainly scary.  You'll need to document that well, and stay on that to make sure she doesn't take that out on your daughter.  

Also get a voice activated recorder... to protect yourself.  I got one and kept it in my shirt pocket during pickups and drop-offs in case she escalated the situation or claimed I hit her or something.  

[alleyesonme]

thats important, but still something that youre going to need to nip in the bud. you may be right that it will require professional help.

as it would in any marriage, and take into account the conflict that occurs between the two of you over parenting.

im not asking you to think that your wife reacts reasonably to your daughter, or even that she isnt completely over the top.

i am challenging you to put yourself in her shoes, in a scenario where youre the odd man out, and where your style of parenting is called out and knocked down.

the most obvious solution is for the two of you to work together to get on the same page when it comes to parenting. you are going to have to lead that effort. the dynamic, as it exists, is really ingrained, over years. trust is less than minimal if it exists at all. there arent easy fixes. but fundamentally, its going to have to be an effort that is led by you.

the karpman drama triangle teaches against taking sides in conflict. you have been thinking of this in terms of rescuing your daughter from your wife for a long time; two against one, or for that matter, one against two. the solution is obviously not that you sacrifice your relationship with your daughter for a complaint. its that you (try to) heal your relationship with your wife.

thats what im talking about. tackle the various issues in separate threads. tackle the parenting conflict in one. tackle the physical abuse in another. there may be other issues that merit their own threads as well.

it really depends.

marriage counseling or therapy can make things worse, or it can make things better. and it all depends on the attitude of both parties.

what often happens is that one or both parties enter counseling/therapy with the attitude of fixing the other party, and convincing the counselor/therapist to help save the marriage by fixing the dysfunctional things that the other party brings.

thats when and why it often fails.

i think you, at least in part, have that attitude, that its your wife that needs fixing ("when one is so delusional"), when it is the marriage, the team, that needs fixing. your wife is an extraordinarily difficult person. she may, in fact, be a delusional person. but you will never fix the marriage if you cant work toward beginning to see that she has valid complaints here, underneath it all. and i understand, it takes a lot of work to get to the bottom of what is valid. setting aside our hurts (long enough) to understand their point of view is probably the most challenging, as well as the most necessary aspect of improving our relationships.

if your wife is open to marriage counseling or therapy, i would take another stab at it. i would go in with two goals: to listen and understand, and to rebuild (build?) the partnership. even if the latter fails, the former can help you enormously, even in a divorce process.

a skilled marriage counselor or therapist wont take sides, but they will look to see if one partner needs more validation than the other, and, early on, they will provide it, in order to build trust and establish rapport before challenging that partner. it can be sort of like what you will get on this board.

this can be an important, and critical aspect: what takes place in front of your daughter and what doesnt, and accountability around that (your wife may be more prone to break the rules). a motivating factor is that we learn our style of conflict, and how to handle it from our parents, how they interact with each other. the karpman drama triangle teaches this as well.

tons of members have been through an extended drought. sex is a pretty high level need, and it drops off when emotional intimacy and trust drop off. conversely, it builds those things.

im not telling you to stuff your repulsion and make love to your wife. that might be impossible, and it would likely make things worse.

i am suggesting you consider love making as part of your strategy to reconnect, rebuild trust, rebuild the relationship. these things go hand in hand. if the two of you are enjoying intimacy, far easier to talk about the difficult aspects in the afterglow.

You're absolutely right about the physical violence needing to be nipped in the bud. She has zero ability to control that, though, so it'll definitely require professional help.

You're right about us needing to get on the same page when it comes to parenting issues. We are making some gradual progress in that area, and I'm hopeful that it'll continue. This quarantine has actually helped in a lot of ways in that area because my mother in law hasn't been around at all to give awful advice to my wife.

I do understand to a degree why she may feel like the odd person out, but I really only make a big deal about something when it's necessary. For example, all of our doctors and nurses told us to not use baby powder on our daughter. I had to fight like crazy against my wife and mother in law to convince them not to do it, and they just like it because of the way it smells. So the logic here is that as long as something smells good, who cares how dangerous it is? That's what I'm dealing with here.

For another example, my mother in law's other son in law is very fair skinned, and he started getting giant white splotches all over his hands last summer. He went to the dermatologist to get checked out, and the doctor said he needs to either wear gloves or keep his hands out of the sun completely. He told this to me and my mother in law. Right as I was about to say that he really needs to listen to the doctor, she told him it's no big deal at all and not to worry about going out in the sun. She's seriously one of the most ignorant people I've ever met.

The fights my wife and I have about parenting - at least the ones where I initiate it - aren't about little things. They're about crucial safety precautions that need to be taken. I could go into this more, but our daughter had to go to the ER at 2.5 weeks old because of a really stupid decision my wife and mother in law made, and then a similar thing happened when our daughter was 13-14 months old and it resulted in her breaking her arm. My wife can react however she wants, but I'm not letting our daughter get hurt again due to their ignorance.

You're right that healing our relationship would solve a lot of the problems. I guess it's just very frustrating when I feel like I'm doing all the work here and she's the one with a severe mental illness and hasn't lifted a finger to improve. Unless that changes, I don't think this is sustainable.

Thank you for the tip on creating new threads - I'll definitely do that in the near future.

You're absolutely right about the way I view marriage counseling. To clarify, while I agree that she does have some valid complains now, she's been acting like this toward me for years - long before any of these things came up. If we'd had a great relationship back then and then everything took a 180 once our daughter came along, I'd have more faith that things could improve. But honestly, it's been bad with a ton of red flags for a long time now. That's who she is, and she always has some sort of excuse for why she's acting like that, and never does anything to actually stop acting like that.

I say that to say that I'm open to giving marriage counseling another try, but I still can't shake the feeling that the only way we have any hope is if she has a major breakthrough, and that'll only occur if she really makes an effort in individual therapy. At some point, a BP has to make some significant changes, or it's just a recipe for a miserable life together. I like your point about listening and understanding being key for us in the future even if we get divorced - that's something I hadn't considered.

Regarding what takes place in front of our daughter, the typical scenario plays out like this: one minute everything is fine, and then my wife starts yelling at me for something that I never could have foreseen. I try to explain where I'm coming from in a (usually) calm manner. She then continues to yell at me, so I ask her to lower her voice, and then she yells that she's not yelling (seriously). When she refuses to stop yelling, I then say I'd like to stop talking about this right now, and that we can revisit it when our daughter is asleep. At that point, my wife continues to yell and refuses to stop. So my next step is typically to go into another room, but that only infuriates her and she follows me there, continuing to yell. We've agreed 100's of times that we can't fight in front of our daughter, but my wife has zero control in the heat of the moment.

I really feel like I'm backed into a corner, because my only other option is to just leave the house when that happens. But then my daughter sees that, and at her age, likely internalizes it as dad did something bad and deserved to get yelled at, and that it's acceptable for someone to treat me like that. IMO, she needs to see me stand up for myself, see me be calm but assertive, and see me insist on someone treating me right. How to set that example for her without causing my wife to go even crazier is something I'm trying to learn.

You're totally right that, in a healthier marriage, sex could help us reconnect. There has been so much pain, though, that I don't know how to get back to the point where I could physically do anything with her again. I know it's theoretically possible, but I just don't know how to get to that point. Especially when half of our sessions back in the day would end in the middle because she'd start yelling at me about something. I've never had that with another partner before.

[alleyesonme]

She promised to work on herself.  She had gone to therapy in the past, though it wasn't exactly a sincere effort, as she "forum shopped" until she found a therapist that would go along with her nonsense and validate her beliefs that I (and before we married, it was her parents) was to blame for all her behavior.  

This time she didn't go back to individual therapy.  Instead we agreed to go to MC again (third time in 4 years, third different counselor), which went sideways quickly when the counselor called her out for her behavior during the sessions, but that's another story...

No, when I called divorce off the first time, she was happy for about a week, then started gradually saying that I was the emotional one, and I had just overreacted to "nothing."  The "nothing" was actually her refusal to let my mom visit (she hadn't seen our kids in over a year), being extremely nasty about it, alleging my mom would abuse our kids, and telling me if I didn't like what she was saying, I should divorce her!  
Don't beat yourself up over it.  I didn't mean to say I enabled her behavior... nor that you do.  Really, pwBPD will act out and in dysfunctional ways whether they're with us, anyone else, or no one at all.  When someone is committed to creating conflict, they will do so, no matter what you say or do.  That's just who they are.  

So, actually my XW suggested the therapy for our kids, although I was considering it myself.  Wary of the fact that she would use the occasion to again "forum shop" as I mentioned above, I had my attorney have a psychologist he shared office space with vet three child psychologists she trusted, and we let my XW choose from one of those.  And we both agreed to take our kids to see him.

In the event, after 3-4 visits my XW realized she couldn't bully the T or get him to side with her, and angrily stopped going.  She complained about the money.  he was out-of-network...but she picked him(!), so I know that's not the real reason.  

Funny story: she had accidentally paid twice at her last visit, so the T owed her a refund.  The next time I visited, he told me (clearly upset by her behavior) that she was nasty about the refund.  He said something like "I swear I couldn't have gotten her money back to her any faster unless I drove to her house with cash, and she still complained"... I wanted to say, "THERE!  Now you see what I've been dealing with."  

She has absolutely said negative things about me (and my family as well) to my kids since we separated and divorced.  The advice I received was to ask my kids what they thought about this stuff, and whether it was true.  They always say "No."  I tell them their mom has her own opinions and feelings about things, and everyone does, but it's up to them to use their brains and determine what they think is real and true.  The T told me kids aren't as easy to fool as we think.  

And so far (it's about a year since our divorce was finalized, and 1 1/2 years since I moved out and filed) the T has said he sees no cause for concern in my kids.  I'm still taking them for monthly visits, and documenting everything though, expecting it to get worse.  

I went through a lot of these same feelings & concerns you've expressed here.  

In the end, I made the decision to leave because I couldn't keep the fighting away from my kids.  I'd try, but when my XW would dysregulate, she couldn't control her emotions and would do and say whatever she wanted in that moment.  

I didn't want my kids to grow up thinking it was okay to behave or be treated like that (she was verbally abusive; and also constantly assailing my character and accusing me of cheating or wanting to cheat).  And my kids were getting old enough to be negatively affected by the fighting.  

I read that kids can be okay with one stable parent, giving them unconditional love, and modeling for them how to behave.  And a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist told me divorce is usually easier on younger kids.

So, I basically weighed the harm to the kids that would be caused by the divorce, against the harm of staying in a house and fighting all the time in front of them... and also the harm of them not getting to see their extended family - my family - because my XW was engaged in a campaign to isolate me (and my kids) from them.  

And one other thing in my case: we had brought my XW's mother to live with us.  While she was not exactly a warm person, she was 100 times more pleasant than my XW, and much more stable mentally, so I figured that at least there was another adult in the house.  

That didn't last long, as my XW found a new guy & let him move in a couple months after I moved out.  SUPER trashy.  He apparently hated her mom, and forced her to move out.  So... yeah.  Not great.  Unfortunately, divorce isn't the end of it if you have kids with a pwBPD.  I am just "keeping my powder dry" waiting for more issues to come up.  I know I may have to go back to court and fight for more custody.  

I didn't experience physical abuse like you did though; that's certainly scary.  You'll need to document that well, and stay on that to make sure she doesn't take that out on your daughter.  

Also get a voice activated recorder... to protect yourself.  I got one and kept it in my shirt pocket during pickups and drop-offs in case she escalated the situation or claimed I hit her or something.  

My wife and your ex seem very similar in a lot of ways. We've been to three marriage counselors. The second one completely called her out in front of me, saying that she needs to significantly change her behavior in order for us to have a chance. Of course, she then refused to go back, saying he was ganging up on her and not neutral enough.

What did your wife do during the sessions that caused the counselor to call her out? That's amazing that she couldn't even keep it together in that context.

That spin and manipulation you experienced after calling off the divorce is wild. I'm routinely told that I'm "the most sensitive person on the planet" because I don't like being slapped, pushed, cussed out, screamed at, etc., and that "all couples fight."

You're totally right that pwBPD will act that way no matter what. I don't know all of the details of your situation, but I had plenty of opportunities to give her an ultimatum long before we got married or just to leave and stop putting up with all of that. Instead, by not doing either of those things, I did enable it. That doesn't excuse anything she's done, but that's the part that I've played in this.

To clarify, was your initial plan for you and your ex to both attend the counseling sessions with your kids, and then she refused to go back? Either way, I'm glad to hear your kids are continuing to go - such a smart move by you.

That's a funny story about her and the therapist! I know it's somewhat twisted, but sometimes I take a small amount of pleasure in seeing her lash out at someone else (anyone but my daughter) just so they can see what I live with on a daily basis. Not saying that that was your feeling as well, but at least he got a small glimpse of her true colors.

I'm planning to get a nanny cam installed once the quarantine is lifted in our state so I have documentation of anything she does to me our my daughter at home. Great tip about carrying a recorder for every interaction post divorce.

Completely understand why you made that decision. Even in an awful marriage, it's still unbelievably hard to leave when kids are involved because you know how hard it'll be for them. Congrats on having the strength to recognize what's best for them in the long run and then doing everything possible to minimize the long term damage done to them.

It's obviously a huge decision, and we may be headed down a similar path to your situation. One of my top priorities right now is to do everything possible to keep the fighting away from my daughter. We've made incremental progress in that area, but nowhere near enough. Did the psychiatrist mention a specific age range for when divorce is "best" (I use that word very loosely) for a kid?

[juju2]

Hi all

It's amback.  I was here before and this is my prev id.

so back to the divorce strategy.
you are asking good questions.  what age is preferable for kids...

I guess you have given up on remedying your situation.  I think if you have given up or are on the brink of giving up, the next step I would want to look at are, what are my goals with having divorce.  Write them down.
One of mine was basically just stop the craziness.  Have my life get better.  I know those goals are vague.  And those were my goals.  If I could have been more specific.  Maybe I would have been able to see if my goals were attainable, likely.

The other thing you could look at is trial separation.  It's a good look at what life would possibly look like during a divorce.

You said you all had the best 2-3 weeks you ever had.  What happened to that experience and what happened to your motivation.

I come back to this because in my experience divorce is about opening up a bad lifestyle for me, my kids, their future...
I cannot un do it.  It's done.  Of course your divorce experience can be different and that's a possibility...
Just sharing things you may or may not want to consider.
j

[juju2]

P.s.

I don't know what age is best.  I think getting past pre teen.

My kids were 4 and 9, girls.  My former spouse was not bpd..  Not normal, he was avoiding personality, non conformist.  Anyway, after the divorce, he had our kids I think every other weekend.  I found out later some guy friend of his watched our kids a lot of the time.  I had no clue about this.!  So my former spouse just basically blanked out, let whatever happen to our kids...my kids didn't get hurt, that I know of, didn't get abused, that I know of or that they remember.  There were no signs during physicals...it just shows you that when you are not there, physically, how do I know what is going on with my children.
My ex husband went into a downward spiral.

I couldn't do the divorce again with what I now know.  Hindsight is 20-20.
I would have gone separation, lived apart, kept my kids 100% of the time.  He would have been fine with that because he wasn't that in to our kids...so look into options.  That would be my best idea.  Look in to options.

[PeteWitsend]

...
What did your wife do during the sessions that caused the counselor to call her out? That's amazing that she couldn't even keep it together in that context.

I approached this last attempt at getting professional help by making a list of the issues and fights and her conduct that I wanted to end.  I knew this was likely futile and meaningless, but for me, this was the last "Well, for the record, I tried" moment. 

She would just complain about a bunch of things, all out-of-order: 2 years ago, when we met, 3 years ago, at our wedding he said this, he once did this, etc.  She would also make sarcastic comments and yell at me while I was speaking.

The MC called her out, and said she needed to stop some of her behavior, period.  There was nothing for me to do about it, it was just abusive on her part. 

The first time that happened, it caught BPDxw off-guard.  The next time, she started arguing with the MC, and the third time, full-out YELLED at the MC, who I could see was like "Yeah, buddy, you two are so getting divorced.  You're not paying me enough to deal with this."

After that third time, BPDxw refused to go back, and told me to just move out.  I actually calmed that one down; I was not ready to move out yet.  I probably should've just done it though.  I eventually did & filed for divorce about 9-10 months later. 

"all couples fight."

Yeah, I used to hear that a lot.  I also liked "If a husband doesn't take care of his wife, another man will." 

The threats of infidelity to control my behavior were just perfect, especially since she was constantly accusing me of looking to cheat on her. 

...

To clarify, was your initial plan for you and your ex to both attend the counseling sessions with your kids, and then she refused to go back? Either way, I'm glad to hear your kids are continuing to go - such a smart move by you. …

We each took the kids to see the T separately, during our own time & possession.  That was the plan.  Once I moved out, and I avoided as much interaction with her as possible, and left things mainly to our attorneys.  After a month or so, she started complaining the T was useless, it cost too much, & tried to encourage me to stop taking the boys to see him.  I didn't. 

She also tried to get the right to take the boys to see a different T, but I had written into the divorce decree a stipulation that the boys had developed a relationship with the current T, and so she could not do this for at least two years. 

I'm planning to get a nanny cam installed once the quarantine is lifted in our state so I have documentation of anything she does to me our my daughter at home. Great tip about carrying a recorder for every interaction post divorce.

Check with an attorney first; you could get yourself in trouble by filming things without the other party's consent, depending on your state laws.

Also, you should carry the VAR even before the divorce; you should have that on you for every interaction with her from the moment she is aware divorce is a possibility, and you separate or move out.  It will be a little awkward to conceal, so practice with it first.  If you have a shirt pocket, you can usually keep it there for the best results.  If the shirt has a pattern, for example, plaid, it will conceal the VAR better. 

In my experience, you should also tread carefully when mentioning things like this (recording conversations, journaling, etc.); I once mentioned to BPDxw, in response to the "all couples fight" BS that we were not on speaking terms nearly 1/3 to 1/2 of the time in any given month.  She was LIVID that I was keeping track (it's harder to manipulate someone when they have an objective record...) and started recording things on her own.

Her recordings were hilarious... typically me talking in a calm voice about how sick of her behavior I was, while she screamed at me and insulted me.  She couldn't even keep her emotions in line when she was intentionally trying to set me up as "abusive." 

I found them because she would send them to me, or leave them out on our shared laptop, like "Ha, gotcha." 

Note: A lot of this information is more appropriate for the family law section though; specific questions about separating are better answered there. 

... Did the psychiatrist mention a specific age range for when divorce is "best" (I use that word very loosely) for a kid?

No, he just said it was easier on younger kids.  FTR, my kids were 3 and almost 5 when I separated. 

[PeteWitsend]

...

The other thing you could look at is trial separation.  It's a good look at what life would possibly look like during a divorce.
...

BPDxw had suggested that, as an alternative to divorce.  I didn't choose a trial separation for a couple reasons: 1) there was no way to enforce any of the parameters in court in our state; i.e. there's no legally recognized separation, you either divorce or stay together; 2) without the force of law around the situation, I did not trust her enough to honor her end of the agreement, let me see the kids when I wanted, not bring guys around them, etc.; and 3) without the force of law separating our finances, I didn't want to deal with her spending money, taking trips, etc.

In the event, I think I made the right decision.  She was clearly scared of the judge and the cost of divorce, and that kept her somewhat honest.  She still looked for ways to skirt the rules, attack me, and undermine my relationship with my kids, but she couldn't keep them from me without violating the written orders from the judge. 

Also, she definitely tried to screw with me financially as well, charging a new $2500 couch and other stuff before I could take her off my CC.  I ended up eating a lot of that during the settlement. 

Basically, having known her well enough, I knew that she would fight dirty in every aspect of our lives: possession of the kids, the kids' welfare, education, health, finances, significant others, etc. 

Maaaaaybe... MAYBE during the trial separation she would be on her best behavior for a month to get me to want to come back, but I doubt it.  That would require more self-control than she had demonstrated.  And regardless, I couldn't trust her.  After everything she said and did, I didn't believe a word that came out of her mouth.  She would lie about anything, no matter how ridiculous, if she felt it gave her an advantage in that moment. 

[juju2]

Sorry to be responding inside your thread ..

I meant trial separation for Alleyes.

He needs to see, feel, experience separation --even if it's not the real thing--
and I agree it isn't like the real thing.
It's better!

So it helps to know if I can handle what is probably better than what I will have to handle!

Can I handle it.
It's a huge IF

[once removed]

The fights my wife and I have about parenting - at least the ones where I initiate it - aren't about little things.

im speaking more of incidents related to contradicting each other in front of your daughter, and fighting in front of your daughter. those are hard, no doubt, but theyre easier, logistically to control. i realize you dont necessarily have, and havent always had a willing partner in that regard. leading by example is critical. even then, in the best of circumstances, she may get it wrong.

making progress in that area though, is, ideally, going to help you in the others.
 

I say that to say that I'm open to giving marriage counseling another try, but I still can't shake the feeling that the only way we have any hope is if she has a major breakthrough, and that'll only occur if she really makes an effort in individual therapy.

you may be at that point, and its not an invalid place to be, it really isnt. there are members here who have done the hardest of work, maybe seen improvement, but found that their relationship is unfulfilling and made the decision to leave. ideally, you want to make those efforts, to give this your best shot possible, to leave those kinds of regrets off the table.

and that will matter a great deal if the two of you pursue counseling again. you want to know the dos and donts.

Regarding what takes place in front of our daughter, the typical scenario plays out like this: one minute everything is fine, and then my wife starts yelling at me for something that I never could have foreseen. I try to explain where I'm coming from in a (usually) calm manner. She then continues to yell at me, so I ask her to lower her voice, and then she yells that she's not yelling (seriously). When she refuses to stop yelling, I then say I'd like to stop talking about this right now, and that we can revisit it when our daughter is asleep. At that point, my wife continues to yell and refuses to stop. So my next step is typically to go into another room, but that only infuriates her and she follows me there, continuing to yell. We've agreed 100's of times that we can't fight in front of our daughter, but my wife has zero control in the heat of the moment.

try something else 

make it less about the yelling. for some people, thats their go to. i have an uncle who does it. ive witnessed my mom and he get in arguments where she insists he stop yelling, and he insists hes not yelling.

before you know it, the two of you are arguing about whether or not shes yelling, and youre leaving the room, and shes baiting you, when its really not about the yelling, and everything just escalates.

it is going to take a lot of trial and error here in terms of a response, but try not being defensive or arguing or explaining, and get at the heart of the matter. what is it shes yelling about? what can you do? argue about yelling, or how the two of you express yourselves later, in a time of calm.

[PeteWitsend]

Sorry to be responding inside your thread ..

I meant trial separation for Alleyes.

He needs to see, feel, experience separation --even if it's not the real thing--
and I agree it isn't like the real thing.
It's better!

So it helps to know if I can handle what is probably better than what I will have to handle!

Can I handle it.
It's a huge IF

No, you're all good.  It's Alleyes' thread, not mine.  

I was just sharing my opinion of why I don't think a trial separation is a good thing when you're involved with a pwBPD.  

For one thing a divorce is still a lengthy process that gives each party time to think.  you can always call a divorce proceeding off, agree to postpone hearings,  and ask the judge to schedule more time before it's finalized.  Even relatively simple divorces (i.e. no kids, no family businesses, low assets) are still a months - if not years - long process.  Each party can decide during this time if this is what they really want.  

But at least during a divorce proceeding, there are objective boundaries and rules of conduct each party is given to follow.  Rules around spending, possession of and access to minor children, etc., and most importantly, a neutral third party in the form of a judge to adjudicate and enforce these rules.

In a trial separation, each party may agree on some boundaries, but - at least in my state - there is no third party there to adjudicate disputes since separations are not recognized at law - you're either married or you're not - and pwBPD are notorious for violating others' boundaries.  So in my opinion, I would be setting myself up for failure by agreeing to a trial separation with her.

In the event, after I served BPDxw with divorce papers, it got real for her.  Sometime the next week, she begged me to call it off & promised to work on herself (but I had heard that all before ...), or at least give it a trial separation to see if we still wanted to divorce after living apart.  

I refused because I didn't trust her anymore.  I didn't think she'd approach a trial separation in good faith.  She might try to remain on her best behavior for a week or so, but after that I expected her paranoia and dysregulation would get the best of her, and the "games" would begin.  I also worried about how much damage to our joint finances she could do during this time if she wanted, and leave me in a worse position financially and/or legally if/when I actually filed for divorce.  

[alleyesonme]

Hi all

It's amback.  I was here before and this is my prev id.

so back to the divorce strategy.
you are asking good questions.  what age is preferable for kids...

I guess you have given up on remedying your situation.  I think if you have given up or are on the brink of giving up, the next step I would want to look at are, what are my goals with having divorce.  Write them down.
One of mine was basically just stop the craziness.  Have my life get better.  I know those goals are vague.  And those were my goals.  If I could have been more specific.  Maybe I would have been able to see if my goals were attainable, likely.

The other thing you could look at is trial separation.  It's a good look at what life would possibly look like during a divorce.

You said you all had the best 2-3 weeks you ever had.  What happened to that experience and what happened to your motivation.

I come back to this because in my experience divorce is about opening up a bad lifestyle for me, my kids, their future...
I cannot un do it.  It's done.  Of course your divorce experience can be different and that's a possibility...
Just sharing things you may or may not want to consider.
j

Sorry to you and others for the delay in replying. Life has been very hectic lately on my end.

To clarify, I haven't given up, but am just trying to get as much info as possible and do as much planning as possible in the event that we do get divorced so as to minimize the damage done to my daughter. I know that this study likely doesn't exist, but for example, if I came across a study that said kids whose parents get divorced before they turn 3 have proven to take it much better than kids who were over 3, then that would be good to know.

As for your goals, of course they were vague, but also very important and necessary. When you're in the depths of a marriage that is about to end, that's so emotionally exhausting that it's really hard to come up with more specific goals than that. My goals would probably be exactly the same as yours were if we got divorced today.

The trial separation is an interesting idea I hadn't thought about. Have you (or anyone else here) done that? My initial concern revolves around not having a legal mandate that my wife has to follow in terms of custody, so there's no penalty for failing to comply. On the other hand, maybe a trial separation provides the wake up call she needs to get serious therapy and commit to it. Thank you for the idea!

We'd had the best 2-3 week period that we'd had in the last 2 years, but we've been together for 6 years. There were some much better times in the first 1-2 years. Since my last post, we've started regressing closer to where we've typically been in recent years.

Do you regret getting divorced, or do you think the benefits of the divorce outweighed the negatives? Just curious based on your post - no need to answer if you don't feel like it.

[alleyesonme]

P.s.

I don't know what age is best.  I think getting past pre teen.

My kids were 4 and 9, girls.  My former spouse was not bpd..  Not normal, he was avoiding personality, non conformist.  Anyway, after the divorce, he had our kids I think every other weekend.  I found out later some guy friend of his watched our kids a lot of the time.  I had no clue about this.!  So my former spouse just basically blanked out, let whatever happen to our kids...my kids didn't get hurt, that I know of, didn't get abused, that I know of or that they remember.  There were no signs during physicals...it just shows you that when you are not there, physically, how do I know what is going on with my children.
My ex husband went into a downward spiral.

I couldn't do the divorce again with what I now know.  Hindsight is 20-20.
I would have gone separation, lived apart, kept my kids 100% of the time.  He would have been fine with that because he wasn't that in to our kids...so look into options.  That would be my best idea.  Look in to options.

I just replied to your post before this before reading this one, so feel free to disregard anything that was answered in this post.

That would be my assumption as well - that no age is "good," but it's at least "better" once the kid is in middle school or high school. How did your 4 year old handle it? My daughter is about to turn 2, so she'll most likely be 3 or 4 if/when we get divorced.

That's scary that he was so careless while he had them. I'd imagine your older daughter naturally stepped in and took somewhat of a caretaker role for your younger daughter, which is totally unfair for her to have to do and may have caused some resentment. Sorry that that happened, and you make a great point about having zero control over what happens when you're not around.

Thanks for the answer about what you would do now if you could go back in time. If I knew that my wife would let me keep our daughter 100% of the time, I'd be all for that separation. But I don't think she'd agree to anything over 50%.

I guess the separation (but not divorce) would also bring in some other issues in terms of whether it's appropriate to start dating other people or not. One of my goals if we end up getting divorced is to find a much better romantic partner (whether we end up getting married or not) and therefore model a healthy relationship for my daughter so she can use that (instead of my current marriage) as an example when she's older. How do you think you would have handled that issue if that's the path you'd taken?

[alleyesonme]

I approached this last attempt at getting professional help by making a list of the issues and fights and her conduct that I wanted to end.  I knew this was likely futile and meaningless, but for me, this was the last "Well, for the record, I tried" moment. 

She would just complain about a bunch of things, all out-of-order: 2 years ago, when we met, 3 years ago, at our wedding he said this, he once did this, etc.  She would also make sarcastic comments and yell at me while I was speaking.

The MC called her out, and said she needed to stop some of her behavior, period.  There was nothing for me to do about it, it was just abusive on her part. 

The first time that happened, it caught BPDxw off-guard.  The next time, she started arguing with the MC, and the third time, full-out YELLED at the MC, who I could see was like "Yeah, buddy, you two are so getting divorced.  You're not paying me enough to deal with this."

After that third time, BPDxw refused to go back, and told me to just move out.  I actually calmed that one down; I was not ready to move out yet.  I probably should've just done it though.  I eventually did & filed for divorce about 9-10 months later. 
Yeah, I used to hear that a lot.  I also liked "If a husband doesn't take care of his wife, another man will." 

The threats of infidelity to control my behavior were just perfect, especially since she was constantly accusing me of looking to cheat on her.  We each took the kids to see the T separately, during our own time & possession.  That was the plan.  Once I moved out, and I avoided as much interaction with her as possible, and left things mainly to our attorneys.  After a month or so, she started complaining the T was useless, it cost too much, & tried to encourage me to stop taking the boys to see him.  I didn't. 

She also tried to get the right to take the boys to see a different T, but I had written into the divorce decree a stipulation that the boys had developed a relationship with the current T, and so she could not do this for at least two years. 
Check with an attorney first; you could get yourself in trouble by filming things without the other party's consent, depending on your state laws.

Also, you should carry the VAR even before the divorce; you should have that on you for every interaction with her from the moment she is aware divorce is a possibility, and you separate or move out.  It will be a little awkward to conceal, so practice with it first.  If you have a shirt pocket, you can usually keep it there for the best results.  If the shirt has a pattern, for example, plaid, it will conceal the VAR better. 

In my experience, you should also tread carefully when mentioning things like this (recording conversations, journaling, etc.); I once mentioned to BPDxw, in response to the "all couples fight" BS that we were not on speaking terms nearly 1/3 to 1/2 of the time in any given month.  She was LIVID that I was keeping track (it's harder to manipulate someone when they have an objective record...) and started recording things on her own.

Her recordings were hilarious... typically me talking in a calm voice about how sick of her behavior I was, while she screamed at me and insulted me.  She couldn't even keep her emotions in line when she was intentionally trying to set me up as "abusive." 

I found them because she would send them to me, or leave them out on our shared laptop, like "Ha, gotcha." 

Note: A lot of this information is more appropriate for the family law section though; specific questions about separating are better answered there. 

No, he just said it was easier on younger kids.  FTR, my kids were 3 and almost 5 when I separated. 

Your last experience with the MC is half hilarious, half awful. I say that because I know exactly what you're talking about, and I often try to find humor in some of the crazy stuff she has said or done to me. In other words, it'd be hilarious if it you weren't involved in it. I would imagine that that experience made the decision a little more clear for you? We haven't gotten that far down the road, but I can imagine that seeing the MC give up would be a clear indication to me that it was hopeless.

The threats of infidelity are so manipulative and such a low blow. That's one thing we've actually avoided thus far, but I'm sure that made everything that much harder and crazier for you to handle at the time.

Quick logistical question for you - there's a law firm in my city that specializes in representing men in divorce cases, and they have ads on local radio from time to time that will give some quick tips to men going through this. One of the tips is that you have no obligation to be the one that moves out once you file for divorce. How did you come to the decision to be the one that moved out?

Great move to insist on the kids continuing to go to therapy and building it into the settlement that she couldn't change their therapist.

Regarding the nanny cam, my understanding is that it's legal in our state.

Awesome advice about the VAR - I'll keep all of that in mind.

Of course she got upset when she found out you were journaling. In my experience, BP's live in such a delusional world that they absolutely lose it when you confront them with objective facts that don't mesh with their side of the story. And then she made herself look even worse when she started officially recording how mean she was to you.

Thanks for the tip on the family law section. I've been meaning to ask some questions on that section as well. This whole thing is just so draining!

My daughter is almost 2, so she'll likely be 3 or 4 if/when we get divorced. Other than taking them to counseling and obviously being a great dad to them, was there anything else you discovered that helped them process it or made it slightly easier for them? And did you ever run into any resentment from them?

[alleyesonme]

im speaking more of incidents related to contradicting each other in front of your daughter, and fighting in front of your daughter. those are hard, no doubt, but theyre easier, logistically to control. i realize you dont necessarily have, and havent always had a willing partner in that regard. leading by example is critical. even then, in the best of circumstances, she may get it wrong.

making progress in that area though, is, ideally, going to help you in the others.
 
you may be at that point, and its not an invalid place to be, it really isnt. there are members here who have done the hardest of work, maybe seen improvement, but found that their relationship is unfulfilling and made the decision to leave. ideally, you want to make those efforts, to give this your best shot possible, to leave those kinds of regrets off the table.

and that will matter a great deal if the two of you pursue counseling again. you want to know the dos and donts.

try something else 

make it less about the yelling. for some people, thats their go to. i have an uncle who does it. ive witnessed my mom and he get in arguments where she insists he stop yelling, and he insists hes not yelling.

before you know it, the two of you are arguing about whether or not shes yelling, and youre leaving the room, and shes baiting you, when its really not about the yelling, and everything just escalates.

it is going to take a lot of trial and error here in terms of a response, but try not being defensive or arguing or explaining, and get at the heart of the matter. what is it shes yelling about? what can you do? argue about yelling, or how the two of you express yourselves later, in a time of calm.

Very good point about how learning to argue more respectfully can carry over to other areas. I'm still a work in progress, and feel like I've improved a lot, but am still not as good as I can be in that area. I think the dilemma that trips me up the most is when she accuses me of doing/being something that's wildly inaccurate in front of my daughter. I feel like I have to defend myself in that situation so my daughter knows how inaccurate it is and that it's not acceptable for anyone to treat another person that way. But then when I defend myself, it only escalates the situation. Definitely caught between a rock and a hard place. Any tips on how to handle that?

Great advice about how to handle counseling. For my daughter's sake, I do need to make sure I do everything possible to make this work somehow.

I guess the issue on my end is that, 99% of the time, she's yelling at me about something that is completely untrue. As my therapist suggested, I try to calmly repeat over and over simple statements such as "that's not true," "I never said that," etc. But at the end of the day, there isn't really a heart of the matter. It's a delusional person who has such a skewed sense of reality that she creates these insults in her mind. How do you have a conversation with someone like that even in calm moments, let alone when they're screaming at you? That's what I'm struggling with.

[juju2]

Hi all,

Gathering information about others is helpful.  My 4 year old has almost no memories of her dad, during those years, maybe until she was 10.  I think it was confusing, upsetting and unsafe.

And looking back, I have 20-20 vision.
The one thing I would like to impress is you will have no way of knowing how yours will go.
No matter how much information and facts...
After my divorce, several years in, I became an advocate for families to stay together.  You are in that critical phase where you can tip the scales.

I suggested a separation, for you, short, 3 months,
which is what our church at the time suggested.
We never did that at that time.
If you do that you will get a taste of if YOU can handle the changes, the not knowing, how will it be for you.
And how your daughter will do.

For me it was crushing the not knowing.
and now so much later getting bits and pieces of what did happen and how close we came to something life changing horrible happening.

I think part of the shock I went thru was having no clue he would spiral down and make horrible choices.  He could not handle being a single parent.  He did almost zero with the kids before the divorce.

  I guess the parenting you now see is the best it would be, if she is a single parent. 
Heck, take a week off and see how she does as a single parent.
Anything that will provide insight into how you will feel, your daughter, and how your wife will act.  You have to experience it.

[once removed]

I feel like I have to defend myself in that situation so my daughter knows how inaccurate it is and that it's not acceptable for anyone to treat another person that way. But then when I defend myself, it only escalates the situation. Definitely caught between a rock and a hard place. Any tips on how to handle that?

dont JADE.

and work to get on the same page.

i know how vague and unhelpful that sounds at first glance, i really do (and thats partly because there is no "right" answer, what works is going to depend on you and your wife).

to the first point, you can see that it only escalates things.

my parents would go at it fairly hard in front of me when i was a kid. at his most upset, my dad would make passive aggressive comments about my mom to me, or outright badmouth her. im sure he would later feel badly for this, he would demonstrate as much, but at his worst, my dad could be pretty immature. my mom never did this. she never contradicted him or took me aside to give me her say. on one single occasion, after i told her some of what my dad said, she did tell me she didnt think it was helpful for either of them to do that, but that sometimes things were said in anger. i think i had pretty average or middle of the line role models. but even when i wasnt at all involved, id listen, and take sides in my parents conflict. i remember as a small child, if my parents ever took two vehicles, id struggle to choose who to ride with, feeling as if i would be betraying the other. but as i got older, i saw that they could both be fairly unreasonable, talk at each other, and fight over silly things.

kids learn conflict, and their role in it, from their earliest models. in an ideal world, kids would never see their parents get nasty. they would see conflict, inevitably, but ideally, theyd see and learn proper and loving conflict resolution.

that aint the real world, i know.

practically, learning to pick your battles would be a good start. "dont JADE" isnt meant to be taken literally, ie "never defend yourself, never explain yourself". mostly its a catch all, for "dont escalate, dont engage in circular arguments, dont explain yourself repeatedly, let no be an answer, dont dangle out a lot of information to a dysregulated person to argue".

trust your daughter. i knew mommy wasnt the things daddy was saying when he was angry, though it hurt me to hear them.

if youre going to talk to your daughter about these things, use really neutral terminology, and speak to her almost as if shes an adult. depersonalize, use hypothetical rhetoric. avoid at any cost pitting either of you as right or wrong. speak to the difficulty of conflict, about saying things when angry.

working to get on the same page when it comes to parenting is critical. you may not ever "break" your wife of badmouthing you in front of your daughter, but with work, and with trust, over time, youd be surprised how much you might cut it down, how much you might be able to remedy the situation when your wife gets back to baseline. having it occur 75, or 60, or 50% less often, and being able to make up for it when it does happen would be preferable, yes?

but right now theres a huge gulf between you and your wife on this that needs mending, and that will take a lot of time and effort.

As my therapist suggested, I try to calmly repeat over and over simple statements such as "that's not true," "I never said that," etc. But at the end of the day, there isn't really a heart of the matter. It's a delusional person who has such a skewed sense of reality that she creates these insults in her mind. How do you have a conversation with someone like that even in calm moments, let alone when they're screaming at you? That's what I'm struggling with.

im going to make two gentle suggestions here:

1. has anyone repeating their position (thats not true, i never said that) ever gotten through to you? thats what learning not to JADE is about.

2. there is a heart of the matter. it may be over the top. it may be extreme. it may be, in the moment, a huge or even distorted overstatement of the heart of the matter. underneath it all is something valid. something i dare say you can identify with.

learning to listen, really listen, is the key that connects both.

alleyesonme, if i launch into you, if i tell you you are the worst person in the world, that youre a horrible father, that i wish id never met you, those things might not be true...i might even take them back later. but underneath them is some boiling resentment that im expressing at level 10. if you heard me at say, level 3, it might make perfect sense to you.

you love someone that expresses themselves in extreme, over the top, dysregulated, and at times, distorted ways, but probably not delusional ones. "sometimes i feel like you dont listen to me" might be translated as "youre the worst person in the world, youre a horrible father, and i wish i never met you".

listening isnt defending yourself. listening isnt repeating yourself. listening isnt silence or being a door mat, either.

in the case of you and your loved one, it is getting at the heart of the matter, and that takes practice, and skill.

[PeteWitsend]

...
Quick logistical question for you - there's a law firm in my city that specializes in representing men in divorce cases, and they have ads on local radio from time to time that will give some quick tips to men going through this. One of the tips is that you have no obligation to be the one that moves out once you file for divorce. How did you come to the decision to be the one that moved out?
...

it was just easier that way.  I had no legal obligation to, but I wanted to get away from BPDxw as soon as possible, b/c I didn't know what she might do... try to provoke me, attack me, call the cops, etc.  Also, my ex-MIL lived with us, so it was likely the court would look at the situation anyway, and figure the needs of those people weighed against me alone warranted me moving out, i.e. it's easier for one person to get a new place than 4.  My attorney assured me this wouldn't affect later possession rights or the property settlement. 

Basically, if you're doing something in good faith to protect yourself or your kid(s), a court will take that into account.  There's no "GOTCHA!" kinda rule, where a party is held to have "abandoned" their share in the house because they moved out; courts aren't going to enforce absurd rules that would encourage feuding spouses to stay under the same roof.   The same goes for joint assets.  If you take money to preserve it, don't try to hide it during the proceedings, disclose it, don't blow it, a court will understand.  Intentionally hiding assets, spending money on frivolous things to keep it away from the other spouse, etc... those are frowned upon. 

...My daughter is almost 2, so she'll likely be 3 or 4 if/when we get divorced. Other than taking them to counseling and obviously being a great dad to them, was there anything else you discovered that helped them process it or made it slightly easier for them? And did you ever run into any resentment from them?

I would say just be there for her.  Make things seem as normal as possible; I told my kids that this was something a lot of families go through, and it wasn't a big deal.  I got a place close by, but in a different neighborhood.  I listened to anything my kids said or any questions they asked, and always reassured them.  I otherwise tried to minimize what was happening, and let them feel comfortable and safe with me.  So far so good.

I haven't run into much resentment; very little in fact.  I know BPDxw has tried to stir the mud against me, but it hasn't been successful.  Kids are resilient; they want to be happy, spend time with their parent(s), play with their toys, learn, and grow.  If they can do those things, they're not going to make a big deal of the fact that their parents are divorced. 

[alleyesonme]

Hi all,

Gathering information about others is helpful.  My 4 year old has almost no memories of her dad, during those years, maybe until she was 10.  I think it was confusing, upsetting and unsafe.

And looking back, I have 20-20 vision.
The one thing I would like to impress is you will have no way of knowing how yours will go.
No matter how much information and facts...
After my divorce, several years in, I became an advocate for families to stay together.  You are in that critical phase where you can tip the scales.

I suggested a separation, for you, short, 3 months,
which is what our church at the time suggested.
We never did that at that time.
If you do that you will get a taste of if YOU can handle the changes, the not knowing, how will it be for you.
And how your daughter will do.

For me it was crushing the not knowing.
and now so much later getting bits and pieces of what did happen and how close we came to something life changing horrible happening.

I think part of the shock I went thru was having no clue he would spiral down and make horrible choices.  He could not handle being a single parent.  He did almost zero with the kids before the divorce.

  I guess the parenting you now see is the best it would be, if she is a single parent. 
Heck, take a week off and see how she does as a single parent.
Anything that will provide insight into how you will feel, your daughter, and how your wife will act.  You have to experience it.

Thank you so much for the advice and for sharing your experiences. That must have been so hard for you to have zero control when your kids were with him and for him to drop the ball so completely. During that period, did your kids ever ask you if they could stay with you more frequently?

And if you'd stayed with him, do you think you guys could have gotten to a much better place than you were in at that time? Or was he not capable of that?

The trial separation is a good suggestion. My tentative plan is that in about a year, I'll give my wife an ultimatum to undergo regular DBT therapy and take it seriously, or we're done. I think I'll take it in 6 month increments where I reevaluate at the end of each 6 month period. If she's really working at it and is committed to it and there's some improvement (even if it's marginal), then I think I'll be able to hang in there for another 6 months. But if she refuses the therapy or agrees to do it and then blows it off, then it'll be time for the trial separation.

There's also an element here where I want a fulfilling romantic relationship in my life, and we're about as far from that as we can possibly get right now. If she can't drastically change (even if it occurs gradually, that'd be fine), then I don't know how I can have that with her. That's such an agonizing decision to have to make (my romantic fulfillment vs. my daughter's natural desire for her parents to stay together), and that will be gut-wrenching if I end up going through with the divorce.

I hate the thought of having to get a divorce and what it could do to our daughter, but I really think it'll be that much more damaging for her to grow up with such a dysfunctional marriage between her parents. A divorce would be devastating to her, but if I can meet a much better romantic partner, then I can show my daughter what a healthy relationship should look like.

[alleyesonme]

dont JADE.

and work to get on the same page.

i know how vague and unhelpful that sounds at first glance, i really do (and thats partly because there is no "right" answer, what works is going to depend on you and your wife).

to the first point, you can see that it only escalates things.

my parents would go at it fairly hard in front of me when i was a kid. at his most upset, my dad would make passive aggressive comments about my mom to me, or outright badmouth her. im sure he would later feel badly for this, he would demonstrate as much, but at his worst, my dad could be pretty immature. my mom never did this. she never contradicted him or took me aside to give me her say. on one single occasion, after i told her some of what my dad said, she did tell me she didnt think it was helpful for either of them to do that, but that sometimes things were said in anger. i think i had pretty average or middle of the line role models. but even when i wasnt at all involved, id listen, and take sides in my parents conflict. i remember as a small child, if my parents ever took two vehicles, id struggle to choose who to ride with, feeling as if i would be betraying the other. but as i got older, i saw that they could both be fairly unreasonable, talk at each other, and fight over silly things.

kids learn conflict, and their role in it, from their earliest models. in an ideal world, kids would never see their parents get nasty. they would see conflict, inevitably, but ideally, theyd see and learn proper and loving conflict resolution.

that aint the real world, i know.

practically, learning to pick your battles would be a good start. "dont JADE" isnt meant to be taken literally, ie "never defend yourself, never explain yourself". mostly its a catch all, for "dont escalate, dont engage in circular arguments, dont explain yourself repeatedly, let no be an answer, dont dangle out a lot of information to a dysregulated person to argue".

trust your daughter. i knew mommy wasnt the things daddy was saying when he was angry, though it hurt me to hear them.

if youre going to talk to your daughter about these things, use really neutral terminology, and speak to her almost as if shes an adult. depersonalize, use hypothetical rhetoric. avoid at any cost pitting either of you as right or wrong. speak to the difficulty of conflict, about saying things when angry.

working to get on the same page when it comes to parenting is critical. you may not ever "break" your wife of badmouthing you in front of your daughter, but with work, and with trust, over time, youd be surprised how much you might cut it down, how much you might be able to remedy the situation when your wife gets back to baseline. having it occur 75, or 60, or 50% less often, and being able to make up for it when it does happen would be preferable, yes?

but right now theres a huge gulf between you and your wife on this that needs mending, and that will take a lot of time and effort.

im going to make two gentle suggestions here:

1. has anyone repeating their position (thats not true, i never said that) ever gotten through to you? thats what learning not to JADE is about.

2. there is a heart of the matter. it may be over the top. it may be extreme. it may be, in the moment, a huge or even distorted overstatement of the heart of the matter. underneath it all is something valid. something i dare say you can identify with.

learning to listen, really listen, is the key that connects both.

alleyesonme, if i launch into you, if i tell you you are the worst person in the world, that youre a horrible father, that i wish id never met you, those things might not be true...i might even take them back later. but underneath them is some boiling resentment that im expressing at level 10. if you heard me at say, level 3, it might make perfect sense to you.

you love someone that expresses themselves in extreme, over the top, dysregulated, and at times, distorted ways, but probably not delusional ones. "sometimes i feel like you dont listen to me" might be translated as "youre the worst person in the world, youre a horrible father, and i wish i never met you".

listening isnt defending yourself. listening isnt repeating yourself. listening isnt silence or being a door mat, either.

in the case of you and your loved one, it is getting at the heart of the matter, and that takes practice, and skill.

Thank you so much for your advice. I can tell you've been through a lot, have learned a lot and have put in a lot of work to find the best ways to handle it.

You make a great point about trusting my daughter to decipher between what's accurate and what isn't, and I need to improve at that. Much easier said than done.

I've definitely made progress in picking my battles, but can obviously continue to improve at that as well.

Great tip about the neutral language with my daughter. I actually did something like that earlier today. My wife had yelled at both me and my daughter in succession, so later on when it was just my daughter and I, I brought it up again. I said that there's nothing wrong with feeling angry or frustrated, and that everyone has those feelings sometimes. But just because someone feels those emotions, that doesn't make it right for them to lash out at another person.

That's a great point about really trying to dig down and find the true issue that's causing her to get so mad. Honestly, as is usually the case with people who have BPD, I think it's almost always just a matter of her feeling such deep pain/insecurity inside and then trying to project that onto me.

I'll give two recent examples, and I'd love to hear your take on how you'd suggest I respond in these situations. Any specific actions or words that you'd recommend would be greatly appreciated.

1) My wife has a niece that had a big graduation party about 3 hours away from us this past weekend. My wife is very close with her family, and really wanted to go to this party with our daughter (our daughter is still nursing, so having her stay home with just me for an extended period of time isn't an option yet). I'm not a big fan of her family, but still would have gone with them under normal circumstances. Our state is still under a strict quarantine, though, and my wife's family obviously isn't taking it very seriously. There were going to be several people over 70 years old at this party, and there's no way to enforce social distancing with our daughter in that setting when she'll want many of these people to hold her. I put my foot down and said they shouldn't go, and my wife went ballistic on me in front of our daughter, saying I'm such a controlling a-hole, she hates me, and I intentionally devise reasons for her to not be able to see her family. These allegations are absurd, and while I know that, it absolutely sucks that my daughter heard my wife say those things about me. I calmly replied that I'm not controlling or mean, and I'm not trying to keep her from her family, but I'm doing my best to keep our daughter (and other family members) safe. This did nothing to calm the situation down. How would you suggest I respond?

2) The three of us were eating dinner together the other day, and our daughter (who normally enjoys eating veggies) was refusing to eat any of her veggies. Both my wife and I tried several times, but it wasn't working. My wife got really frustrated and stormed off to another room. She was gone for 10 minutes or so, and in that period, I ended up convincing our daughter to eat her veggies. My wife comes back into the kitchen and sees that all of our daughter's veggies have been eaten, and instead of being happy/grateful, she goes off on me, saying I'm such an a-hole and should have waited for my wife to get our daughter to eat them. I calmly replied that the most important thing was for our daughter to eat her veggies, and that's exactly happened, so it doesn't matter who oversaw it, but that didn't diffuse the situation at all.

What do you think?

[alleyesonme]

it was just easier that way.  I had no legal obligation to, but I wanted to get away from BPDxw as soon as possible, b/c I didn't know what she might do... try to provoke me, attack me, call the cops, etc.  Also, my ex-MIL lived with us, so it was likely the court would look at the situation anyway, and figure the needs of those people weighed against me alone warranted me moving out, i.e. it's easier for one person to get a new place than 4.  My attorney assured me this wouldn't affect later possession rights or the property settlement. 

Basically, if you're doing something in good faith to protect yourself or your kid(s), a court will take that into account.  There's no "GOTCHA!" kinda rule, where a party is held to have "abandoned" their share in the house because they moved out; courts aren't going to enforce absurd rules that would encourage feuding spouses to stay under the same roof.   The same goes for joint assets.  If you take money to preserve it, don't try to hide it during the proceedings, disclose it, don't blow it, a court will understand.  Intentionally hiding assets, spending money on frivolous things to keep it away from the other spouse, etc... those are frowned upon. 

I would say just be there for her.  Make things seem as normal as possible; I told my kids that this was something a lot of families go through, and it wasn't a big deal.  I got a place close by, but in a different neighborhood.  I listened to anything my kids said or any questions they asked, and always reassured them.  I otherwise tried to minimize what was happening, and let them feel comfortable and safe with me.  So far so good.

I haven't run into much resentment; very little in fact.  I know BPDxw has tried to stir the mud against me, but it hasn't been successful.  Kids are resilient; they want to be happy, spend time with their parent(s), play with their toys, learn, and grow.  If they can do those things, they're not going to make a big deal of the fact that their parents are divorced. 

That makes sense about why you moved out. Sounds like you got a lot of sound advice before this all went down. This might be a stupid question, but how did it work logistically in terms of custody while you were going through the divorce? Does the court immediately make a temporary ruling mandating temporary shared custody while the proceedings are ongoing, or is that left up to the spouses to work out themselves?

Great tip about joint assets. If I file, I could see my wife using whatever we have in our joint account at that time to buy something frivolous for herself or her parents. With that in mind, I've considered moving most of the money in our joint account to my own account right before filing for divorce, but I obviously wouldn't spend any of that money. It would just be to prevent her from intentionally wasting it all, and I'd disclose that to the court.

Thank you for sharing your experience of what has worked with your kids during this whole ordeal. That definitely makes me feel a lot better about potentially having to go down that path.

[PeteWitsend]

That makes sense about why you moved out. Sounds like you got a lot of sound advice before this all went down. This might be a stupid question, but how did it work logistically in terms of custody while you were going through the divorce? Does the court immediately make a temporary ruling mandating temporary shared custody while the proceedings are ongoing, or is that left up to the spouses to work out themselves?

I'll relate what I went through, since I think it will be helpful to you.

way before I filed for divorce, I went to see an attorney (I had a good one referred to me) and paid for an hour long consultation to get a description of how the process worked, what I could expect with respect to custody, finance, costs, etc. This cost me $500, but was 100% worth it. 

Within a week of filing for divorce, usually in a day or two - though I'm not sure how things are working right now due to the various COVID-19 quarantine orders - there will be a preliminary hearing with temporary custody & financial arrangements worked out. 

At our preliminary hearing, the judge implemented the standard possession of kids I'd receive in our state as the non-custodial parent, & put a "hold" on our assets, i.e. established a basic accounting, and said who could spend what, who could use which cars, where each party would live, and what was to be kept as is until we had a final property settlement.  This also put some rules in place to ensure either party's spending going forward wasn't charged against the other party.  If either party violated this, they'd get less in the final settlement.  There are basic rules at state law that each party is entitled to, barring a showing of harm... and if you're going to challenge these, you have to have evidence that would be admissible in court, and be prepared to spend thousands of dollars on top of what a divorce would normally cost. 

In my own case... a day or two after BPDxw and I agreed to separate and divorce, but before I had filed anything, she looted our checking and money market accounts.  Fortuitously, our bank had screwed up and left her name off our kids' savings accounts so she couldn't get her hands on that money. 

All this was entered into evidence at court, and she was ordered to preserve the money and not waste it, because it would all be netted out in a 50/50 division when we finalized the divorce (per our state law).

It never really came up in a way that prejudiced the court against her; she was just ordered to hold the money, and she did.  She did get away with charging a new $2500 couch on our joint CC, but some of that was my fault; I should've cancelled the card immediately per my atty's advice, but I planned to use it instead of the cash I had to buy  my kids' bedroom furniture.  In any event, she was ordered to hand over her card to me at the preliminary hearing, and I was allowed to take her off the account.

If you're the primary breadwinner, and/or make more money than your spouse, expect to get a little nickeled-and-dimed this way.  As hearings and mediations go, everyone gets tired as they drag on, and you don't want to be the party holding it up by trying to strictly account for every dime.  On the other hand, being the one to take a reasonably smaller cut in order to resolve an impasse will help your cause in the long run. 

Great tip about joint assets. If I file, I could see my wife using whatever we have in our joint account at that time to buy something frivolous for herself or her parents. With that in mind, I've considered moving most of the money in our joint account to my own account right before filing for divorce, but I obviously wouldn't spend any of that money. It would just be to prevent her from intentionally wasting it all, and I'd disclose that to the court.
...

The attorney I went to see told me that if I were to take half our money and put it in a separate account to preserve it from her, that would be considered okay in court.  I could explain my reasons for doing so, and as long as I didn't spend the money, no harm, no foul. 

Note though that this is a real "crossing the Rubicon" moment, especially when dealing with a pwBPD.  If you're moving half your money out of your joint account, you better also have an attorney lined up, and have figured out a place where you can sleep that night, away from your spouse...

[PeteWitsend]

I should add:

The laws and local court rules may be different where you are, so there may or may not be a lot of similarities between my experience in court and yours. 

If you think divorce is on the horizon, go see an attorney for a consultation.  and remember: you get what you pay for.  a good attorney won't work for free, but also won't try to rush you to file if you're not ready for that.

[once removed]

Honestly, as is usually the case with people who have BPD, I think it's almost always just a matter of her feeling such deep pain/insecurity inside and then trying to project that onto me.

im not sure the case is usually that simple.

people with BPD traits have legitimate gripes within their relationship. they dont communicate them well. they overstate them, understate them, understate them and then overstate them, you name it.

I'll give two recent examples

the examples are kind of chicken and egg.

its not that you did anything particularly "wrong" in handling them. it seems to me you handled them reasonably well.

the problem (the egg) is that there is a great deal of hostility and lack of trust preexisting your examples.

dont get me wrong: if there wasnt, you might still experience times like these. ideally, theyd be fewer and further between. in times of calm, when your partner has returned to baseline, they would be subjects the two of you could use to work to get on the same page.

I intentionally devise reasons for her to not be able to see her family. These allegations are absurd

they may be over the top. they may not at all reflect your motivations. but i suspect theyre coming from somewhere. remember, with BPD you get an inherent lack of distrust, and when dysregulated, you tend to have a jump to the worst possible conclusion. think of times youve been hurt by others. likely, in some of those cases, you gave the benefit of the doubt; the person didnt mean to hurt you, but they did, and you werent wrong to feel that way. in other cases, youve likely assumed (rightly or wrongly) that they meant to do so, and were outraged. one of my big bugaboos is feeling left out, by my friends. i tend to take it very personally. i dont tend to assume everyone conspired to leave me out (worst possible conclusion), but i do tend to try to read their minds, go through a wide range of motivations and possibilities, when at the end of the day, it just really isnt that personal; but that doesnt mean im wrong to be hurt.

has she made that sort of accusation before? how do you feel about her family? how does she think you feel about her family? whats your history with them? how close to them are you?

these are the things id be thinking about, not the allegation at face value. shes close to them, you and she are battling, theres no trust. its easy to walk into a "you against them" sort of scenario.

in an ideal circumstance where there is trust, these accusations might be her reflecting disappointment, possibly judgment, and shed pout, but it would likely be a fleeting thing. in a less ideal circumstance, this is more fuel to the fire that separates the two of you.

she goes off on me, saying I'm such an a-hole and should have waited for my wife to get our daughter to eat them.

this one is a little simpler.

this relationship has been you against her, fighting for your daughter, for a while. this felt to her like you won, and excluded her.

its unreasonable. its not crazy. its how far this thing has broken down.

its not how you handled it in the moment (its not how you handled either situation in the moment). its that everything is a contest, rather than the two of you as a team. any success either of you have is going to pull you apart unless/until that is remedied.

i would let the incident with your daughter go for now. id bring up, in the least judgmental way possible, that your wife suggested you devise plans to keep her separated from her family, and ask what she meant by that. i wouldnt JADE, i wouldnt argue or defend myself one iota. id just listen and ask questions, and get a feel for where shes coming from.

id report it back here and get some perspective. after that, id bring it back up again, either in an effort to learn more, or to work to get on the same page, depending.

[alleyesonme]

I'll relate what I went through, since I think it will be helpful to you.

way before I filed for divorce, I went to see an attorney (I had a good one referred to me) and paid for an hour long consultation to get a description of how the process worked, what I could expect with respect to custody, finance, costs, etc. This cost me $500, but was 100% worth it. 

Within a week of filing for divorce, usually in a day or two - though I'm not sure how things are working right now due to the various COVID-19 quarantine orders - there will be a preliminary hearing with temporary custody & financial arrangements worked out. 

At our preliminary hearing, the judge implemented the standard possession of kids I'd receive in our state as the non-custodial parent, & put a "hold" on our assets, i.e. established a basic accounting, and said who could spend what, who could use which cars, where each party would live, and what was to be kept as is until we had a final property settlement.  This also put some rules in place to ensure either party's spending going forward wasn't charged against the other party.  If either party violated this, they'd get less in the final settlement.  There are basic rules at state law that each party is entitled to, barring a showing of harm... and if you're going to challenge these, you have to have evidence that would be admissible in court, and be prepared to spend thousands of dollars on top of what a divorce would normally cost. 

In my own case... a day or two after BPDxw and I agreed to separate and divorce, but before I had filed anything, she looted our checking and money market accounts.  Fortuitously, our bank had screwed up and left her name off our kids' savings accounts so she couldn't get her hands on that money. 

All this was entered into evidence at court, and she was ordered to preserve the money and not waste it, because it would all be netted out in a 50/50 division when we finalized the divorce (per our state law).

It never really came up in a way that prejudiced the court against her; she was just ordered to hold the money, and she did.  She did get away with charging a new $2500 couch on our joint CC, but some of that was my fault; I should've cancelled the card immediately per my atty's advice, but I planned to use it instead of the cash I had to buy  my kids' bedroom furniture.  In any event, she was ordered to hand over her card to me at the preliminary hearing, and I was allowed to take her off the account.

If you're the primary breadwinner, and/or make more money than your spouse, expect to get a little nickeled-and-dimed this way.  As hearings and mediations go, everyone gets tired as they drag on, and you don't want to be the party holding it up by trying to strictly account for every dime.  On the other hand, being the one to take a reasonably smaller cut in order to resolve an impasse will help your cause in the long run. 

The attorney I went to see told me that if I were to take half our money and put it in a separate account to preserve it from her, that would be considered okay in court.  I could explain my reasons for doing so, and as long as I didn't spend the money, no harm, no foul. 

Note though that this is a real "crossing the Rubicon" moment, especially when dealing with a pwBPD.  If you're moving half your money out of your joint account, you better also have an attorney lined up, and have figured out a place where you can sleep that night, away from your spouse...

Awesome advice all around here - thank you so much. I have virtually zero privacy these days, so finding a 10 minute window to post on here has been a major challenge. But I really do appreciate you taking the time to share so much great info. I'll definitely keep all of this in mind.

[alleyesonme]

im not sure the case is usually that simple.

people with BPD traits have legitimate gripes within their relationship. they dont communicate them well. they overstate them, understate them, understate them and then overstate them, you name it.

the examples are kind of chicken and egg.

its not that you did anything particularly "wrong" in handling them. it seems to me you handled them reasonably well.

the problem (the egg) is that there is a great deal of hostility and lack of trust preexisting your examples.

dont get me wrong: if there wasnt, you might still experience times like these. ideally, theyd be fewer and further between. in times of calm, when your partner has returned to baseline, they would be subjects the two of you could use to work to get on the same page.

they may be over the top. they may not at all reflect your motivations. but i suspect theyre coming from somewhere. remember, with BPD you get an inherent lack of distrust, and when dysregulated, you tend to have a jump to the worst possible conclusion. think of times youve been hurt by others. likely, in some of those cases, you gave the benefit of the doubt; the person didnt mean to hurt you, but they did, and you werent wrong to feel that way. in other cases, youve likely assumed (rightly or wrongly) that they meant to do so, and were outraged. one of my big bugaboos is feeling left out, by my friends. i tend to take it very personally. i dont tend to assume everyone conspired to leave me out (worst possible conclusion), but i do tend to try to read their minds, go through a wide range of motivations and possibilities, when at the end of the day, it just really isnt that personal; but that doesnt mean im wrong to be hurt.

has she made that sort of accusation before? how do you feel about her family? how does she think you feel about her family? whats your history with them? how close to them are you?

these are the things id be thinking about, not the allegation at face value. shes close to them, you and she are battling, theres no trust. its easy to walk into a "you against them" sort of scenario.

in an ideal circumstance where there is trust, these accusations might be her reflecting disappointment, possibly judgment, and shed pout, but it would likely be a fleeting thing. in a less ideal circumstance, this is more fuel to the fire that separates the two of you.

this one is a little simpler.

this relationship has been you against her, fighting for your daughter, for a while. this felt to her like you won, and excluded her.

its unreasonable. its not crazy. its how far this thing has broken down.

its not how you handled it in the moment (its not how you handled either situation in the moment). its that everything is a contest, rather than the two of you as a team. any success either of you have is going to pull you apart unless/until that is remedied.

i would let the incident with your daughter go for now. id bring up, in the least judgmental way possible, that your wife suggested you devise plans to keep her separated from her family, and ask what she meant by that. i wouldnt JADE, i wouldnt argue or defend myself one iota. id just listen and ask questions, and get a feel for where shes coming from.

id report it back here and get some perspective. after that, id bring it back up again, either in an effort to learn more, or to work to get on the same page, depending.

Once again, thank you so much for taking the time for such a thoughtful reply. As I mentioned above, it's been almost impossible to read/post on here lately because my wife is constantly watching me.

You're absolutely right - there's a ton of hostility and lack of trust. After providing about a dozen examples of these situations to my therapist, she pointed out that significant paranoia is common in people with BPD, and there isn't much I can do about that.

My issue is that, even when it *seems* like it's a moment of relative calm, that switch can get flipped so quickly that it immediately turns into all-out war. So that makes it extremely unpleasant (and almost always unproductive) to try to hash any of these things out. On top of that, our daughter doesn't go to bed till about 9 pm, so the only time we ever have to discuss these things in private is late at night. With my wife, there's no such thing as a short, respectful conversation. Anything I bring up is liable to devolve into a knock-out, drag-out fight until 1 am. I already get very little sleep as it is, so it's beyond exhausting to have these fights on a regular basis.

One thing I'm working on and need to continue improving at is to practice more empathy. She's constantly attacking me, and my natural instinct is to explain/defend myself. I'd say 99% of the time, I do this calmly, but that still leads to an extended fight. I need to start mirroring better. Do you have any tips for how to mirror effectively in the face of insulting/outrageous accusations? I know that depersonalizing is key, but that's so much easier said than done.

You're absolutely right about her natural instinct to jump to the worst possible conclusion. This happens frequently with her, whether it's with me, her family, her friends or at work. Sometimes she would come home from work with a story about how upset she is at someone, and there's almost always a completely benign and likely explanation for why that person did what they did. As soon as I try to mention that possibility, she'll blow up at me and tell me that she knows they were intentionally trying to hurt her and that she doesn't want me to try to explain anything.

Regarding my relationship with her family, I could write a book about that situation. In short, it's not great right now. I'm by far the closest with one of her sisters (we'll call her Susan), but Susan is somewhat of the blacksheep in the family. Susan was actually diagnosed with BPD a few years back, but has worked relentlessly in DBT and has made a ton of progress. She's not even close to as crazy as my wife is. The whole family has either diagnosed or undiagnosed mental illnesses, but Susan is the only one with the courage to try to do anything about it. The rest of the family mocks Susan, denies that there's anything wrong with her and thinks she's a drama queen for going to therapy in the first place. They constantly talk behind her back.

My mother in law is obnoxious and has caused major issues ever since our daughter was born. My MIL has issues herself, and has raised a number of kids (and nieces/nephews/grandchildren) to grow up with significant mental illnesses, yet she thinks she's the greatest mother this world has ever seen. When in fact, she caused our daughter to be sent to the ER twice in her first 15 months of life, mocks and disregards serious advice given to us from medical professionals, and completely disrespects me when we're all with my daughter.

The problem there is that my wife literally idolizes her mom. Unlike most people, who can acknowledge the good and bad qualities of a person and still love/respect them, my wife thinks her mom is perfect in every way and has never said/done anything wrong. I got into a brief argument with my MIL a few weeks back when she continued disrespecting me.

Another issue that her family has with me is the following. We live about 2 hours from my in-laws. I typically work at least 12 hours per day, if not more, 7 days a week. The good thing about that is that I almost always work from home. Any time I have that I'm not working, I try to spend as much time as possible with my daughter.

Despite our financial struggles, my wife has refused to work at all since our daughter was born (anecdotally, her mom doesn't work either, despite the fact that she's healthy and capable and they're always complaining about how poor they are. Guess who they mooch off of?). My wife is always trying to take our daughter to stay at my in-laws for several days at a time, which is completely unfair to me and my daughter. They live close enough for her to go visit overnight and come back the next morning, but she always insists on staying several days. I have put my foot down on that because it's not fair that I have to lose time with our daughter (and vice-versa) so my wife (who doesn't even attempt to work) can go there. Because of my work schedule, I don't have time to go with them on the visit. And my MIL doesn't work, so she can come visit us whenever she wants. Leaving our daughter with me isn't an option right now, unfortunately, because she's still nursing. So I think there's an element of my wife's psycho mom thinking I'm controlling because of that.

Lastly, my father in law has severe PTSD and very low self-esteem. My MIL walks all over him, and he just takes it. So that was the example set for my wife growing up. I refuse to just take it, so my wife, MIL and FIL all think I'm controlling because I demand that she treats me how I treat her. 

I said all that to say this: just like in many other areas, the timing of the quarantine has been awful, as it came at a time when tensions between me and everyone else in her family (other than Susan) are at their worst. So yes, I'm sure you're right that my wife sees it as me against them. But wouldn't a reasonable person be able to realize the safety concerns at play here?

As you suggested, I tried to talk to her about that, and she basically said that she (and her family) think COVID-19 is a hoax, so there shouldn't be any restrictions anywhere in the country, because she's not concerned about anyone's safety. I tried to point her to some research/news about how dangerous it can be, but she immediately accused me of calling her stupid and refused to read anything.

[once removed]

My issue is that, even when it *seems* like it's a moment of relative calm, that switch can get flipped so quickly that it immediately turns into all-out war. So that makes it extremely unpleasant (and almost always unproductive) to try to hash any of these things out.

Anything I bring up is liable to devolve into a knock-out, drag-out fight until 1 am. I already get very little sleep as it is, so it's beyond exhausting to have these fights on a regular basis.

keep in mind two things, as you choose a path:

the relationship will always be stressful, and hard, and there will always be times that situations are flipped quickly and get chaotic; thats in the best case scenario. ideally, its fewer and further between, and there are more instances of resolution, and building on that.

but dont underestimate how far this relationship has broken down, and what it will take (if possible) to get it on a different trajectory.

in other words, youre saying things suck and are impossible. im telling you it may be possible they can get better, but the battle is uphill, and long term, if its possible.

One thing I'm working on and need to continue improving at is to practice more empathy. She's constantly attacking me, and my natural instinct is to explain/defend myself. I'd say 99% of the time, I do this calmly, but that still leads to an extended fight. I need to start mirroring better. Do you have any tips for how to mirror effectively in the face of insulting/outrageous accusations? I know that depersonalizing is key, but that's so much easier said than done.

i dont know if mirroring is the right approach, per se. i mean, mirroring might mean, in this case, exploding back, right? she goes from 0-10, you go from 0-10?

depersonalizing is key to understanding what is really underlying where she is coming from. some things are personal. some things are out of line. the solution isnt just to sit back and take it.

the key is listening and understanding, while at the same time, setting reasonable and realistic limits. if shes calling you an insensitive jerk, and the worst person in the world, that might be something you can depersonalize, and live with. if she accuses you of fornicating with your mother, that might be time to say "im out", right?

She's constantly attacking me, and my natural instinct is to explain/defend myself.

You're absolutely right about her natural instinct to jump to the worst possible conclusion. This happens frequently with her, whether it's with me, her family, her friends or at work. Sometimes she would come home from work with a story about how upset she is at someone, and there's almost always a completely benign and likely explanation for why that person did what they did. As soon as I try to mention that possibility, she'll blow up at me and tell me that she knows they were intentionally trying to hurt her and that she doesn't want me to try to explain anything.

i dont have BPD, and i mostly hate when people do this with me 

if im purely venting, i dont want perspective, i dont want to consider the other persons point of view, and most of all, i dont want to be told im wrong or that my thinking is flawed. im not incapable of doing those things myself, ill do them in my time, when im closer to baseline. when youre in that zone, any of that feels invalidating, and as a pretty sensitive person myself, you love a highly sensitive person.

your natural instincts, whether shes venting to you, about you, or venting to you, about someone else, are trying to correct her thinking and fix her problems. she wants you to listen. she wants to be heard. she may want more than that...she may want agreement, she may want you to validate the invalid. you dont have to do the latter to accomplish the former, though.

the same is true when shes venting to you, about you.

The problem there is that my wife literally idolizes her mom.

it sounds like a pretty invalidating household.

in my fathers family (a large one), sickness, injury, that sort of thing was looked upon as weakness. i think if you asked my dad, hed reject that injury or sickness were weakness, but the idea was still pretty ingrained in him. i watched him wake up from a stroke, speaking total gibberish, but he managed to at least passively argue that he shouldnt go to the hospital.

likewise, according to the things my ex told me about her dad, he was a neglectful and abusive nightmare of a man (my reading). in the same sentence, he was the funniest, smartest, best man in the world, and i reminded her of him.

familial beliefs and influences color our worldview, and i cant stress that enough. yours do, too. and so much conflict in a marriage comes from those competing worldviews, those competing upbringings. what your wifes history might tell you is that possibly, she too, wants to be seen as the ideal mom, and shes threatened, deeply, by any notion to the contrary.

I typically work at least 12 hours per day, if not more, 7 days a week.

thats a pretty extreme work schedule, my man, a minimum of 84 hours a week. id consider whether or not that could be lessened; i understand if it cant, but that will challenge the best, strongest of relationships.

likewise, so will any relationship where one partner has to do that amount of work, while the other partner refuses to work, when that could be part of the solution.

As you suggested, I tried to talk to her about that, and she basically said that she (and her family) think COVID-19 is a hoax, so there shouldn't be any restrictions anywhere in the country, because she's not concerned about anyone's safety. I tried to point her to some research/news about how dangerous it can be, but she immediately accused me of calling her stupid and refused to read anything.

thats, unfortunately, a political argument, playing out all across the country, and to some extent, the world. for what its worth, i happen to be on your side. i also know that nothing is likely to be gained from having a political debate on whether covid19 is a hoax. thats why she accuses you of calling her stupid. because all she hears is "heres a list of reasons why youre wrong and people who disagree with you".

agree that your wife disagrees  . in the short term, pick your battles, the hills youre willing to die on, put your foot down. in general, speak more from your own perspective and concerns, why you think x solution is best, and try to be flexible...dont try to win a political debate (avoid that as best you can, and be succinct), try to reach, as best you can, a solution as two parents, a team. table it if things get too heated or unworkable. it wont be easy in the short term; the two of you are, in general, at odds, and competing.

in short: you are the more reasonable party. but both of your conflict styles are clashing, have been for a long time, and both need work, are imperfect. it is possible that a lot may be gained from taking the initiative of changing and perfecting yours. it is also possible that the gains would be limited, possibly, still, to your dissatisfaction, and the detriment of the relationship. it is also possible that this could be too far gone for gains at all.

its hard to say. what do you think?

[alleyesonme]

keep in mind two things, as you choose a path:

the relationship will always be stressful, and hard, and there will always be times that situations are flipped quickly and get chaotic; thats in the best case scenario. ideally, its fewer and further between, and there are more instances of resolution, and building on that.

but dont underestimate how far this relationship has broken down, and what it will take (if possible) to get it on a different trajectory.

in other words, youre saying things suck and are impossible. im telling you it may be possible they can get better, but the battle is uphill, and long term, if its possible.

i dont know if mirroring is the right approach, per se. i mean, mirroring might mean, in this case, exploding back, right? she goes from 0-10, you go from 0-10?

depersonalizing is key to understanding what is really underlying where she is coming from. some things are personal. some things are out of line. the solution isnt just to sit back and take it.

the key is listening and understanding, while at the same time, setting reasonable and realistic limits. if shes calling you an insensitive jerk, and the worst person in the world, that might be something you can depersonalize, and live with. if she accuses you of fornicating with your mother, that might be time to say "im out", right?

i dont have BPD, and i mostly hate when people do this with me 

if im purely venting, i dont want perspective, i dont want to consider the other persons point of view, and most of all, i dont want to be told im wrong or that my thinking is flawed. im not incapable of doing those things myself, ill do them in my time, when im closer to baseline. when youre in that zone, any of that feels invalidating, and as a pretty sensitive person myself, you love a highly sensitive person.

your natural instincts, whether shes venting to you, about you, or venting to you, about someone else, are trying to correct her thinking and fix her problems. she wants you to listen. she wants to be heard. she may want more than that...she may want agreement, she may want you to validate the invalid. you dont have to do the latter to accomplish the former, though.

the same is true when shes venting to you, about you.

it sounds like a pretty invalidating household.

in my fathers family (a large one), sickness, injury, that sort of thing was looked upon as weakness. i think if you asked my dad, hed reject that injury or sickness were weakness, but the idea was still pretty ingrained in him. i watched him wake up from a stroke, speaking total gibberish, but he managed to at least passively argue that he shouldnt go to the hospital.

likewise, according to the things my ex told me about her dad, he was a neglectful and abusive nightmare of a man (my reading). in the same sentence, he was the funniest, smartest, best man in the world, and i reminded her of him.

familial beliefs and influences color our worldview, and i cant stress that enough. yours do, too. and so much conflict in a marriage comes from those competing worldviews, those competing upbringings. what your wifes history might tell you is that possibly, she too, wants to be seen as the ideal mom, and shes threatened, deeply, by any notion to the contrary.

thats a pretty extreme work schedule, my man, a minimum of 84 hours a week. id consider whether or not that could be lessened; i understand if it cant, but that will challenge the best, strongest of relationships.

likewise, so will any relationship where one partner has to do that amount of work, while the other partner refuses to work, when that could be part of the solution.

thats, unfortunately, a political argument, playing out all across the country, and to some extent, the world. for what its worth, i happen to be on your side. i also know that nothing is likely to be gained from having a political debate on whether covid19 is a hoax. thats why she accuses you of calling her stupid. because all she hears is "heres a list of reasons why youre wrong and people who disagree with you".

agree that your wife disagrees  . in the short term, pick your battles, the hills youre willing to die on, put your foot down. in general, speak more from your own perspective and concerns, why you think x solution is best, and try to be flexible...dont try to win a political debate (avoid that as best you can, and be succinct), try to reach, as best you can, a solution as two parents, a team. table it if things get too heated or unworkable. it wont be easy in the short term; the two of you are, in general, at odds, and competing.

in short: you are the more reasonable party. but both of your conflict styles are clashing, have been for a long time, and both need work, are imperfect. it is possible that a lot may be gained from taking the initiative of changing and perfecting yours. it is also possible that the gains would be limited, possibly, still, to your dissatisfaction, and the detriment of the relationship. it is also possible that this could be too far gone for gains at all.

its hard to say. what do you think?

Dude, you're a machine! So much great wisdom and advice - thank you!

I wouldn't say that it's impossible, but I do think the only way it'll work is if she commits to extensive DBT therapy. I'm doing everything possible on my end, and while I'm nowhere near perfect and can definitely improve in some areas (as we've discussed), I've been carrying the entire load for a long time. If she doesn't even attempt to meet me halfway, we don't have a chance.

When I referred to mirroring, I meant more along the lines of just showing awareness for her emotions (ie "Wow, you seem really frustrated"), and doing so in a calm way. That way, I don't absorb those emotions and she's forced to deal with them on her own, and it also validates her emotions, which is something she didn't get when she was growing up.

Good point about depersonalizing. I agree that there's a spectrum of how severe/over the line the accusations can be. I consider myself a very strong person, but even with us having a daughter together, I'm not sure how much more I can take. If you'd told me 10 years ago that this is the situation I'd be in now, I never would've believed you.

I completely understand your perspective about the venting. The issue is that there's a major difference between you and her. Once you calm down, you're able to rationalize and realize that there's likely a completely harmless explanation for why someone did what they did. She isn't capable of doing that at all, and it will cause her to spiral out of control (eventually taking it out on me) at home and at work (when she was working) as time passes. That's why I feel the need to try to help right away.

You're absolutely right about how much our upbringing impacts our marriages. That's something I'm currently exploring in therapy. And you also hit the nail on the head about one of my wife's triggers - not feeling like she's a good enough mom. But here's the balance I face in that regard - there are often things that she does/doesn't do that are putting my daughter in danger to a certain degree. I can either not say anything out of fear for indirectly offending my wife, or I can say something to make sure my daughter is safe, knowing that my wife will be offended and lash out at me. That's a dilemma I face several times every day, and it's exhausting. And that's exactly what I'm facing in the quarantine.

My work schedule is very demanding, to be sure, and the hours are often even more than what I mentioned above. That being said, I'm working in my dream industry, and I work from home for much of the year, so I still end up getting to spend a good amount of time with my daughter. It admittedly doesn't leave much time to spend with my wife, but I don't think I should leave my dream job on her behalf when she's been a monster to me. And in the short term, minimizing my time with her is necessary in order for me to function at work, get a little sleep and be a great dad. I realize that this isn't sustainable in the long run, so the two of us need to actually enjoy spending time with each other at some point. I just don't know how to get to that point without her drastically changing.

One compromise would be that I could potentially take a less high-profile position in my industry that wouldn't pay as much, but wouldn't require the same workload. But I could only do this if she would work, but she refuses to, and her parents support her in that. And she's even told me that if I think she's mean to me now, it'll only get worse if she has to work, because she'll take that extra stress out on me.

What do I think about the marriage as a whole? The other day, she flat out told me that we need to get divorced, and we need to work together to figure out a solution for how to minimize the impact on our daughter. To explain a little further, our daughter is still nursing regularly, so she literally can't go extended periods of time away from my wife.

I honestly don't think she'll follow through with it. From my perspective, I've wanted to get divorced for a very long time now, but have felt trapped because we have a child together. So on one hand, this is tough to take because it could be a huge change if it actually happens, but on the other hand, it's not like I would miss my wife or have any desire to remain married to her. My tentative plan for awhile now has been to grin and bear it until our daughter stops nursing (let's assume that's another year), and then give my wife an ultimatum to either seek and commit to regular DBT therapy immediately or it's over. From there, I'd reevaluate every six months - if she's making progress, she gets another six months. If not and/or if she blows it off, then we're done.

Additionally, if we do get divorced, I think I'll push for full custody of our daughter, with the realization that it may be an uphill battle. So it wouldn't be a good move for me to agree to a divorce where we continue to live together or where my daughter lives with my wife.