It's tough to not look back at the dozens of opportunities and red flags

[Depression = 72% of members]

Thanks for sharing - we definitely do have a lot in common. I'm so glad to hear that you're in a much better place now. That balance you referred to (stay or go and the reasons for each) weighs on my mind all day, every day. In the end, what prompted you to leave?

I've written about it elsewhere here, but suffice to say, she couldn't get along with my extended family, and made it a point to try to exclude them from our lives and drive a wedge between me & them, particularly my mom and her family, who I'm closer with. 

We nearly got divorced a year before I finally moved out, over that very issue, and she admitted she was over the line, and promised if I called it off, she would work on herself.  That lasted about a month. 

And so the next year when she went out of her way to ruin a short visit from my mom (after I agreed to all her BS stipulations around the visit, and everything she wanted), then screamed at me at a little kid's birthday party after we dropped my mom off at the airport, because she could see I was upset by her behavior, and therefore needed to be attacked, or something, I felt my line in the sand was crossed, and I wasn't going to "normalize" her behavior again, by agreeing to accept an apology, or "validating" her BS reasons for verbally attacking my mom, and then verbally attacking me, after acting like a complete brat for the whole two days my mom was allowed to visit us and see her grandkids. 

We didn't talk for a week, during which time: I found an attorney, found a townhouse to rent nearby, and moved some of my personal things into a storage locker I was renting.  After a week, she tried to pin everything on me, and when I refused to accept any blame for her behavior, she said we should get divorced, expecting I would cave.  I didn't, and agreed I would look for a new place and move out that week. 

the next day (Monday), when I found out she had just looted our money market account and checking account, I signed a lease, moved out, hired the attorney, and served her with papers that Friday. 
 

And given her mental illness, did you try to get full custody of your kids?

I figured it was a long shot, esp. since my kids are young.  and I likely wouldn't be able to meet the high bar to prove she was abusive and get granted more custody.  Her abusive behavior was primarily directed at me anyway, so I figured a court would chalk that up to basic incompatibility, but otherwise find we were both fit to be parents.  She's definitely a "high functioning" BPD, and has a professional degree and career. 

The state I live in already provides an above-average amount of contact for fathers, so I stuck with that.  I weighed the possibility of getting a bit more time, against the cost of having to fight for it, and the toll the additional conflict could take on my health and my kids' well-being. 

You're absolutely right that she doesn't have any sympathy for me. Looking into the future, if I somehow did get granted full custody of our daughter (and that may be a longshot), it's hard to not feel some sympathy for my wife in the sense that I can imagine how devastating it would be to lose (for the most part) my daughter, and I wouldn't want anyone to experience that pain. It would also hurt my daughter significantly at least in the short term, as she does love her mom a lot. On the other hand, if that's what's truly in my daughter's best longterm interests, then I may need to do it anyway. Such a tough decision to make.

I feel similarly; my kids love their mom, but I can see them struggle with her behavior, and her live-in boyfriend's behavior.  But as yet, there's no evidence of any sort of abuse & I've been taking them to regular monthly appointments with a child psychologist, just to provide a third party check on whether there's anything I'm missing.  So far, there's not.  They're well-adjusted and happy, although of course they wish their parents were still together. 

According to a friend of mine who's a child psychiatrist, it will likely be more-or-less okay for now  (my kids are young), but as they get older and look to live their lives outside the house more, they'll get into more conflict with her and encounter more manipulative "conditional love" from their mom, especially if she finds herself single at some future point in time. 

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks for sharing - we definitely do have a lot in common. I'm so glad to hear that you're in a much better place now. That balance you referred to (stay or go and the reasons for each) weighs on my mind all day, every day. In the end, what prompted you to leave?

I've written about it elsewhere here, but suffice to say, she couldn't get along with my extended family, and made it a point to try to exclude them from our lives and drive a wedge between me & them, particularly my mom and her family, who I'm closer with. 

We nearly got divorced a year before I finally moved out, over that very issue, and she admitted she was over the line, and promised if I called it off, she would work on herself.  That lasted about a month. 

And so the next year when she went out of her way to ruin a short visit from my mom (after I agreed to all her BS stipulations around the visit, and everything she wanted), then screamed at me at a little kid's birthday party after we dropped my mom off at the airport, because she could see I was upset by her behavior, and therefore needed to be attacked, or something, I felt my line in the sand was crossed, and I wasn't going to "normalize" her behavior again, by agreeing to accept an apology, or "validating" her BS reasons for verbally attacking my mom, and then verbally attacking me, after acting like a complete brat for the whole two days my mom was allowed to visit us and see her grandkids. 

We didn't talk for a week, during which time: I found an attorney, found a townhouse to rent nearby, and moved some of my personal things into a storage locker I was renting.  After a week, she tried to pin everything on me, and when I refused to accept any blame for her behavior, she said we should get divorced, expecting I would cave.  I didn't, and agreed I would look for a new place and move out that week. 

the next day (Monday), when I found out she had just looted our money market account and checking account, I signed a lease, moved out, hired the attorney, and served her with papers that Friday. 
 

And given her mental illness, did you try to get full custody of your kids?

I figured it was a long shot, esp. since my kids are young.  and I likely wouldn't be able to meet the high bar to prove she was abusive and get granted more custody.  Her abusive behavior was primarily directed at me anyway, so I figured a court would chalk that up to basic incompatibility, but otherwise find we were both fit to be parents.  She's definitely a "high functioning" BPD, and has a professional degree and career. 

The state I live in already provides an above-average amount of contact for fathers, so I stuck with that.  I weighed the possibility of getting a bit more time, against the cost of having to fight for it, and the toll the additional conflict could take on my health and my kids' well-being. 

You're absolutely right that she doesn't have any sympathy for me. Looking into the future, if I somehow did get granted full custody of our daughter (and that may be a longshot), it's hard to not feel some sympathy for my wife in the sense that I can imagine how devastating it would be to lose (for the most part) my daughter, and I wouldn't want anyone to experience that pain. It would also hurt my daughter significantly at least in the short term, as she does love her mom a lot. On the other hand, if that's what's truly in my daughter's best longterm interests, then I may need to do it anyway. Such a tough decision to make.

I feel similarly; my kids love their mom, but I can see them struggle with her behavior, and her live-in boyfriend's behavior.  But as yet, there's no evidence of any sort of abuse & I've been taking them to regular monthly appointments with a child psychologist, just to provide a third party check on whether there's anything I'm missing.  So far, there's not.  They're well-adjusted and happy, although of course they wish their parents were still together. 

According to a friend of mine who's a child psychiatrist, it will likely be more-or-less okay for now  (my kids are young), but as they get older and look to live their lives outside the house more, they'll get into more conflict with her and encounter more manipulative "conditional love" from their mom, especially if she finds herself single at some future point in time. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[alleyesonme]

Hi All

So looking back over the entire time since I met him, now it's 13 years, he has gotten much, much better.
The bad times, horrible times without much light, are largely gone.
What has made the difference.
Him growing.
Me learning, growing.
Time.
Shared values.
Me noticing what WORKS FOR US.
noticing minute positive changes, like a scientist would, is key.

So when I read of success stories, here, continued success, it's a positive upward trend.

Awesome news that there's been so much improvement. I know I've done what I consider to be a good amount of work on myself in order to grow during this experience, and it sounds like you've done a whole lot more than I have - respect to that!

What would you say caused him to grow/improve?

[juju2]

Hi all

He is in a 12 step also..
It's a program of integrity.
So it's a game changer for a lot of bpd behaviours, that would normally go unchecked.
I am in al anon, 12 step for co dependency.
Anything I am working on, is going to get better.  We learn. 

[alleyesonme]

I've written about it elsewhere here, but suffice to say, she couldn't get along with my extended family, and made it a point to try to exclude them from our lives and drive a wedge between me & them, particularly my mom and her family, who I'm closer with. 

We nearly got divorced a year before I finally moved out, over that very issue, and she admitted she was over the line, and promised if I called it off, she would work on herself.  That lasted about a month. 

And so the next year when she went out of her way to ruin a short visit from my mom (after I agreed to all her BS stipulations around the visit, and everything she wanted), then screamed at me at a little kid's birthday party after we dropped my mom off at the airport, because she could see I was upset by her behavior, and therefore needed to be attacked, or something, I felt my line in the sand was crossed, and I wasn't going to "normalize" her behavior again, by agreeing to accept an apology, or "validating" her BS reasons for verbally attacking my mom, and then verbally attacking me, after acting like a complete brat for the whole two days my mom was allowed to visit us and see her grandkids. 

We didn't talk for a week, during which time: I found an attorney, found a townhouse to rent nearby, and moved some of my personal things into a storage locker I was renting.  After a week, she tried to pin everything on me, and when I refused to accept any blame for her behavior, she said we should get divorced, expecting I would cave.  I didn't, and agreed I would look for a new place and move out that week. 

the next day (Monday), when I found out she had just looted our money market account and checking account, I signed a lease, moved out, hired the attorney, and served her with papers that Friday. 
 I figured it was a long shot, esp. since my kids are young.  and I likely wouldn't be able to meet the high bar to prove she was abusive and get granted more custody.  Her abusive behavior was primarily directed at me anyway, so I figured a court would chalk that up to basic incompatibility, but otherwise find we were both fit to be parents.  She's definitely a "high functioning" BPD, and has a professional degree and career. 

The state I live in already provides an above-average amount of contact for fathers, so I stuck with that.  I weighed the possibility of getting a bit more time, against the cost of having to fight for it, and the toll the additional conflict could take on my health and my kids' well-being.  I feel similarly; my kids love their mom, but I can see them struggle with her behavior, and her live-in boyfriend's behavior.  But as yet, there's no evidence of any sort of abuse & I've been taking them to regular monthly appointments with a child psychologist, just to provide a third party check on whether there's anything I'm missing.  So far, there's not.  They're well-adjusted and happy, although of course they wish their parents were still together. 

According to a friend of mine who's a child psychiatrist, it will likely be more-or-less okay for now  (my kids are young), but as they get older and look to live their lives outside the house more, they'll get into more conflict with her and encounter more manipulative "conditional love" from their mom, especially if she finds herself single at some future point in time. 

Thank you for the explanation. When you say she worked on herself and then stopped after a month, what was she doing? Was she seeing a therapist and then refused to continue? I ask because I feel like it's only a matter of time before I give my wife an ultimatum of either going to a DBT therapist and making significant progress or I'm out. I think there's at least some chance that she'll agree to do it at first, but I worry that she'll find some ridiculous excuse to quit when she's forced to acknowledge all of her issues.

Reading about what happened with you guys at that kid's birthday party hits close to home, as we've had a number of similar situations. Unbelievable that there are adults that actually behave this way.

You make a great point about normalizing her crazy behavior when it's completely unacceptable. I think a lot of us on this site have unintentionally enabled this behavior for a long time, and I know that I'm extremely guilty of doing that. As much as I hate her for being such a monster, I also realize that none of this could have happened if I hadn't enabled it. That's a horrible feeling.

That's a phenomenal idea to take your kids to a child psychologist to make sure there isn't anything you're missing. Does your ex know they're doing this, and if so, did she try to fight it? Also, as far as you know, has she said anything negative about you to your kids, or has it been mostly amicable in that regard?

My situation sounds similar to yours in that the abusive behavior has mostly been directed at me. One issue I'm considering is whether or not to fight for full custody if we end up getting divorced, and those same factors you mentioned have been on my mind.

Looking to a possible post-divorce reality, two issues that really concern me (assuming we have shared custody) are that 1) my daughter could become my wife's BPD target once I'm out of the picture, and no child is equipped to deal with that; and 2) when my wife starts dating again, if she hasn't made any significant breakthroughs, that relationship will be extremely dysfunctional just like our current one is. And what if her partner at that point doesn't handle it as well as I have, and then my daughter ends up getting exposed to an even worse situation than what we currently have?

To be honest, I think a lot of posters here on this site would feel the same way, but I really believe my wife is extremely lucky that she's married to me instead of someone else. What I mean by that is that the vast majority of guys in similar situations would have cheated on her, become physically abusive or left her by now, if not all three. What if her next partner does all three and my daughter is exposed to that? As you can tell, lots of variables here.

[alleyesonme]

Hi all

He is in a 12 step also..
It's a program of integrity.
So it's a game changer for a lot of bpd behaviours, that would normally go unchecked.
I am in al anon, 12 step for co dependency.
Anything I am working on, is going to get better.  We learn. 

Very interesting. This may be a stupid question, but what's his 12 step program called? It's just focused on integrity? I was planning to push for her to try DBT, but hadn't considered the possibility of a 12 step program. Can you elaborate a bit as to which BPD traits his program has helped him address?

[juju2]

So, it's a common one.  There is confidentiality to 12 steps.  I can't say which one, actually just saying he is in one is confidential.
Suffice to say there is a 12 step for every thing: gambling, sex addiction, co dependency, alcoholism, meth addict, you get it.
It has helped because of the rigor.  There are meetings( now it's on zoom, because of distancing, some are temporarily suspended), people sponsor others, it's a program of integrity. Working the 12 steps, looking at my life, what could I have done better, making amends.
It helps that both of us have a program. Each of us has a sponsor, someone we trust with our life.
You could look in to going.  I think al anon is pretty basic, co dependency is common. 
I just said you could go to al anon, and that right there is actually not something people say to each other.  Medical professionals, therapists, can suggest a program.  Lay people, we aren't supposed to go around suggesting this.  I am walking a fine line here...
It's funny, a neighbor of mine suggested I go to al anon like 20 years ago.  I didn't go til I met my boyfriend.   He insisted I go, again that's not done, and I was resistant for about 5 years in to our relationship.
You can google 12 step programs.  See if any apply to you.  It's just an idea...
The better I get,  the better my life, and my behaviours, it's a domino for my entire circle, especially my closest relationships.

[once removed]

As for the former, she's pushed me at least 20 times, slapped me hard once in the back of my head while she and my daughter were in the backseat while I was driving on the highway, elbowed me several times, and has thrown dangerous objects at my head from close range two different times.

physical abuse tends to be the number one thing you want to nip in the bud. its really hard to improve anything else with that going on. it sounds like it has been going on for a while, and that does mean that nipping it in the bud will be more of a challenge. id encourage you to build a strategy here.

when was the last time this occurred? how have you responded historically? would you say its gotten better or worse over time?

As soon as she yells at my daughter, I'm then caught between a rock and a hard place because if I don't say anything, then my daughter interprets it to mean that my wife is right in yelling at her. But if I do say something, it then escalates into a fight in front of my daughter. I've decided that the lesser of two evils is to calmly but firmly stand up for my daughter in those situations. Yes, it leads to fights, but it sends the message to my daughter that it isn't right for someone to talk to her like that and that I'll stand up for her against anybody. I'll give my wife credit to a certain degree here, as while she still isn't where she needs to be in this area, she has improved a bit.

alleyesonme, if youll trust me, these can be two of the most important articles that you will ever read, anywhere. i really hope you will take the time to read them.

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle
https://thebowencenter.org/theory/eight-concepts/

to be clear, a karpman drama triangle, and triangulation as bowen describes it, are not exactly the same thing. all of it revolves around conflict, and the piece on bowens website talks about it as it applies to a family, and how that can play out.

its a serious rock and a hard place, i know. but likewise, its a source of serious conflict between you and your wife, and make no mistake, that sends a complicated message to your daughter, that will only grow more complicated as she grows older.

there isnt a right or wrong here, except that the current path is probably not sustainable. i would likewise open up a new thread, and work toward a plan on this.

getting the relationship on a healthier trajectory can mean a lot of things. it first, usually means tackling one or two major issues in the relationship, even if there are three, or four, or six, or more. if youre trying to improve or reconcile the relationship, it tends to mean working toward getting on the same page, no small task. you will need a lot of feedback, a lot of support, and there will be a lot of trial and error. given where the relationship is at, you will by no means start with a willing and cooperative partner. thats not to say its impossible; just really hard work.

assuming it is impossible, and you resolve to leave the relationship, youre going to be coparenting for a long time, and it pays to know the tools, for your own peace, and your daughters.

My wife absolutely idolizes this woman, and they're extremely close, which is scary to me. On one hand, I now see how my wife developed into the person she is, so that helps me sympathize with her a bit more. On the other hand, it's hard to have much respect for my mother in law, and gives me even less hope that my wife will ever be willing or able to change.

i think this is a good start. you have different styles, attitudes, approaches to parenting. thats important to recognize. its important to understand. and its important to be realistic in terms of whether this is a fundamental, irresolvable difference, or whether the two can be bridged, and whether or not the two of you can work toward the same page. and that will require give and take on both sides.

detaching looks a lot like accepting that things wont change, using the tools, doing damage control.

improving is, again, given everything else in play, a hard road. it means building trust when there isnt any, hasnt been any. doable? it can be, for sure. but youre starting out from a place where the two of you are enemies on the matter. improving means having realistic expectations in terms of both the potential, and also the time line. it involves a huge amount of listening, revisiting, and an open mind. if you try to talk to your wife about this tomorrow and get on the same page, things would probably erupt. it wouldnt necessarily mean there isnt progress or that progress cant be made. it would be a reflection of the extent to which the relationship has devolved.

[juju2]

So All.

  You are in the inquiry of finding out ways this can work.
I have compassion for you. 
After living this, being on this site, working on myself, what I have to share is, support.
Support, things that help, and things I found that don't help me so much.
The other thing I have is a 13 year history.
My ups and downs, the leveling, the everything, all of this can be of use to someone else.
It's useful to me.  I have seen the bad times. They never left completely.  (Now is hard, we are in a strange place.)
I have many many good times.  Those sustain me...those I write in stone.

The one part of my story that is a constant, throughout the ups, downs, betweens, is my recovery.
My work on myself.
Through that lens, I have a life, nothing is impossible, I have tools, happiness, responsibility, appreciation.
I am no longer surviving any thing.
It's a shift in how I live my life.
Prior to recovery, I was a victim of the people, situations, in my life.
I had no power and I was frustrated a lot.

[alleyesonme]

So, it's a common one.  There is confidentiality to 12 steps.  I can't say which one, actually just saying he is in one is confidential.
Suffice to say there is a 12 step for every thing: gambling, sex addiction, co dependency, alcoholism, meth addict, you get it.
It has helped because of the rigor.  There are meetings( now it's on zoom, because of distancing, some are temporarily suspended), people sponsor others, it's a program of integrity. Working the 12 steps, looking at my life, what could I have done better, making amends.
It helps that both of us have a program. Each of us has a sponsor, someone we trust with our life.
You could look in to going.  I think al anon is pretty basic, co dependency is common. 
I just said you could go to al anon, and that right there is actually not something people say to each other.  Medical professionals, therapists, can suggest a program.  Lay people, we aren't supposed to go around suggesting this.  I am walking a fine line here...
It's funny, a neighbor of mine suggested I go to al anon like 20 years ago.  I didn't go til I met my boyfriend.   He insisted I go, again that's not done, and I was resistant for about 5 years in to our relationship.
You can google 12 step programs.  See if any apply to you.  It's just an idea...
The better I get,  the better my life, and my behaviours, it's a domino for my entire circle, especially my closest relationships.

Great info. I'll definitely look into that on my own and also bring it up in my next appointment with my therapist. Thank you!