Wondering how hard to push. . .

[vortex of confusion]

I wasn't sure how to broach this topic.

I am trying to figure it out in my head. There are issues that I feel need to be addressed. I have been slowly trying to bring up these things a little at a time. I can tell that I am making him uncomfortable. I am pushing but don't want to push to hard. Here is an example of a conversation that happened earlier today:

(I don't remember it exactly so here is the gist. I am trying to bring up the lack of communication.)

Me: I know that you didn't know what to do on our anniversary. Did it ever occur to you to come sit down next to me and tell me that?

Him: No. I just wasn't thinking.

Me: I am getting really tired of you not thinking. You have been telling me that for years and nothing has changed.

Him: I know. (With the most dejected, sad, puppy dog face ever.)

That is pretty much how the conversation went.

Another conversation on the morning of our anniversary: (I woke up feeling angry. It was a culmination of a bunch of different things.)

He comes into the kitchen and I am a bit short and angry sounding.

Him: What is wrong with you? Are you doing something I need to know about? Your personality has changed.

Me: What? I am angry. I woke up feeling angry. It isn't anything specific. I am angry over the way things are between us.

Him: I've been doing good for the last two months haven't I?

Me: Yes, you have been great the last two months. Two months doesn't erase 17 years worth of hurts.

Him: Oh (or something like that and walks off)

This is how conversations go when I try to bring up the hard stuff. When he gets that sad/dejected/defensive thing going on, things tend to go south and become completely unproductive.

I am wondering a couple of things:

1. How hard should I push these sorts of conversations?

2. Should I even bother trying to have difficult conversations with him?

I am not sure what reason I have for wanting to have these conversations other than hoping that maybe I can open up the lines of communication.

Does anybody have any thoughts?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

Conversations like this would not go over well for us either. One thing I learned was to still speak my truth but to stay on my side of the fence- try to use more "I" statements and less "you". Basically, using the word " you " is triggering in itself. You don't want to WOE, but you want to be heard. Someone who is triggered is likely not able to hear you so the goal is to try to say something with the best chance of being heard. Yes, it is his part to hear you, but it has to start somewhere.

Me:  :)id it ever occur to you to come sit down next to me and tell me that?

Him: No. I just wasn't thinking.

Me: I am getting really tired of you not thinking. You have been telling me that for years and nothing has changed.

Him: I know. (With the most dejected, sad, puppy dog face ever.)


Trying to get into the past- " you should have said something" " did it ever occur to you/"can feel shaming.

Try something like this:

Me: I'm sad that you didn't know what to do on our anniversary. I wish I knew so I could help make plans. Can we do something fun this weekend?

Him: I wasn't thinking

Me: It's hard for me to understand what is happening with you. How can we communicate better?

Him : I don't know... .and off he goes, but it is a change in the way the conversation went. Progress is slow, so don't expect a sudden response.

He comes into the kitchen and I am a bit short and angry sounding.

Him: What is wrong with you? Are you doing something I need to know about? Your personality has changed.

Me: What? I am angry. I woke up feeling angry. It isn't anything specific. I am angry over the way things are between us.

Him: I've been doing good for the last two months haven't I?

Me: Yes, you have been great the last two months. I have noticed that and I think it is great.

Him: Oh (or something like that and walks off)

This time, he gets some positive reinforcement. It won't get an immediate response but again, it may be more effective over time than negative responses. You don't have to push, but perhaps use more positive reinforcement. Here- he noticed your feelings, and asked- opened the door to discussion, but he may not have been able to continue it after you said " 2 months doesn't erase 17 years" It does not, but he may come away from this thinking what is the use if 2 months doesn't count for something.


Notice his response to a critical comment:

Me: I am getting really tired of you not thinking. You have been telling me that for years and nothing has changed.

Him: I know. (With the most dejected, sad, puppy dog face ever.)


Me: Yes, you have been great the last two months. Two months doesn't erase 17 years worth of hurts.

Him: Oh (or something like that and walks off)


Before, you two are talking, and then after a critical comment, he shuts down and the conversation is over. I know you wish he didn't do this, but he is who he is. But before he seems willing to talk at least and so avoiding the criticism might be a way to keep talking without pushing. Pushing him after he has shut down is likely to be met with resistance. The critical comments may not seem like a big deal to you, but he has been shamed and they might trigger shame in him.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks Notwendy!

I didn't realize how many YOU statements I used in all of that until you pointed it out.

I am thinking about this:

Me: I'm sad that you didn't know what to do on our anniversary. I wish I knew so I could help make plans. Can we do something fun this weekend?

I feel like that is minimizing how I felt. I was more than just sad. I was angry and a whole slew of other emotions. I didn't want to know so I could help make plans. All I wanted was to know that he actually gave a rat's patooty.

I am thinking about this too:

but he may not have been able to continue it after you said " 2 months doesn't erase 17 years" It does not, but he may come away from this thinking what is the use if 2 months doesn't count for something.

My truth is that 2 months of what I perceive to be half azz effort on his part is NOT going to make up for 17 years. That is MY truth and I want/need to speak it.

He has been giving me the line of "Why should I bother trying? Nothing is ever good enough for you." I bought into that hook, line, and sinker for the longest time. For the longest time, I wouldn't say anything about anything. If he was good for a day, I would fall all over myself with positive reinforcement trying to get him to keep it up. I didn't say anything about the past for a long time. If he was good, I let everything else go.

Before, you two are talking, and then after a critical comment, he shuts down and the conversation is over. I know you wish he didn't do this, but he is who he is. But before he seems willing to talk at least and so avoiding the criticism might be a way to keep talking without pushing. Pushing him after he has shut down is likely to be met with resistance. The critical comments may not seem like a big deal to you, but he has been shamed and they might trigger shame in him.

How do I bring up the fact that he is completely clueless and does not take me into consideration without being critical? How do I express the fact that I feel the way I do because of the way he has treated me over the years. I want to hold him accountable for his actions. I don't know how to do that. Even when I use "I" statements, it comes across as critical and he gets butt hurt.

I know that he probably has a PD and that I should feel compassion for him, etc. He is a grown man. I know he has problems. I do not want to baby him. I am trying to figure out how hard to push this stuff. I know it is going to come across as critical. I don't know how to reword things so that they don't sound critical.

I am thinking of an example:

"I am angry because I have been treated like a piece of crap." There are no you statements in that. However, I don't feel like it holds him accountable. If I say, "I am angry because I feel like you have treated me like a piece of crap."

I use "I feel like you blah, blah, blah" quite a bit. I can see why he would prefer that I say things and leave him out of it all together. There is no accountability for him in that. It makes it easy for him to pretend that somebody else did those things to me. I feel like he is going to find a way to get butt hurt about anything that I say about anything. I feel like the only thing I can do that won't cause a reaction in him is to suck it up and pretty much forget that anything in the past even happened. Be nice to him and kiss his butt and only say nice things to him. I feel like that is the only way that he might be even remotely okay.

I want more and I want to push for it even if it means that he is going to dysregulate and be uncomfortable.

[Hmcbart]

From a husbands perspective:

Her: Did it ever occur to you to come and sit down next to me and tell me that?

Me: I guess I wasn't thinking.

That's a perfectly logical response to me when faced with the question you posed. He is on the defensive the minute you asked the question. We are simple creatures, fight or flight are the two most important feelings we possess.

Her: I'm getting tired of you not thinking.

Me nothing said after this comment registers.)- thought but not said- "I can't do anything right in her eyes. Can't she see how hard I've been trying for the last two months. I've done everything she has asked to the best of my ability. I love her more than anything in the world but I'm a constant screw up. I don't love myself so why should I expect her to love me and see that I'm trying"

Me: -spoken- I know. Then I walk away.

The question I have for you Vortex is a painful one.

Can you forgive him after how he's treated you for the last 17 years or is the resentment so great that it will always keep you from seeing his efforts?

I feel like I have been on the receiving end of this exchange many times. But for her the resentment never goes away it only gets recycled. We make mistakes, as a man we make a lot of mistakes. Being told that we are a failure in our wife's eyes only eats at us more and causes us to make more mistakes because we are too worried about screwing up again. We are too afraid to upset you that we can't do the right thing because we aren't sure what that is anymore.

[Crumbling]

I want more and I want to push for it even if it means that he is going to dysregulate and be uncomfortable.

Is it truly this, V, or are you needing to feel validated?  You've been invalidated for years, right? By not being heard. You're not wrong to need to be heard.  To know the person you love hears you, knows you, is what makes all the struggles feel worth while. For me, anyways.   I crave it all the time.  I suppose that's why my job is helping me so much because I'm getting it from there now, where as before... .I never got validated by him.  I still don't.  And I didn't talk to anyone one else for long bouts of time.  And it almost killed me.  It did, really, in a way - emotionally.

You have the right to have your needs and wants met just as much as he does, right?  But he doesn't have the means to do it.  He cannot respect your feelings over his.  That's what my BPDh is like.  He just simply doesn't have the capacity.  RA all the way, V.

Since I've adopted this philosophy, he is stepping up to the plate.  I have said to him many times, I accept that you can't do this for me, but f&% it hurts that you can't, or it isn't fair, or it's hard as he!, or whatever. I'm always reminding him that I have a right to emotions too.  And that it isn't my job to fix his emotions. And then walk away, demonstrating that I want nothing from someone who will only give me nothing.  I've 'given up' trying so many times, just to do it again, but whatever.  I'm learning.  And so are you, and since the last time I read your posts, you've come a long way.  Good job!

, c.

[formflier]

 

Good thread... .I like to use the phrase "stay current"... .in my head... .it helps me stay away from hurts of the past.

Question... .you ask how hard you should push... .

I ask... .push towards what?  Push for what?

What is the goal of the conversation?

[Hmcbart]

I wasn't trying to be mean or to upset anyone. The question I asked is the same one I struggle with. Can I forgive or do I want to make her feel the way I have for so many years. I hope I can forgive but some days the resentment wells up and it's all I can feel. Those days aren't good for anyone.

[vortex of confusion]

Question... .you ask how hard you should push... .

I ask... .push towards what?  Push for what?

What is the goal of the conversation?

I want to push for better communication. The goal is to get some kind of resolution. It may be that I just need to feel heard.

I am trying to stay current but am failing a bit.

To add a bit more context to my current thinking, two months ago at the beginning of April, my husband and I pretty much agreed that we were pretty much going to keep things on a friendly level. We agree to what I would call a companionate marriage where we raise the kids together and work towards being better friends.

Well, in the middle of April, something happened that changed everything. He came out and said that he wanted me to be his wife. He couldn't think of being with anybody but me and that he wanted to show me that he is serious about having me as his wife.

I tried to look at it as a bit of a new beginning for us. I have tried to stay pretty low key about it all. I have tried to acknowledge that he has been trying. I have tried to make it a point to sleep in the same room as him rather than on the couch. I still sleep on the couch a lot, especially when he continues to stay checked out.

If he wants us to have a real marriage, then I am going to push for him to act like it. I feel like I need to push things a bit to try to get to a point where some of these things can be discussed. I feel like I need to continue to push for better communication, etc. or things will slip back into the way they used to be where there was little or no discussion and my feelings were pretty much dismissed.

The list of things that I want to discuss at a deeper level are:

1. Communication. He tends to do his own thing while I am busy taking care of the house, the kids, and whatever else. If he is feeling something or is at a loss, I need him to communicate it with me IF there is something that I can do or if it is something that directly impacts me. For example, for our anniversary, I would have liked it if he had said, "I want to do something but I am at a loss. Can we brainstorm? What would you like?" Pretty much anything to show me that he is invested in the relationship at some level.

2. Sex. I know he has all sorts of issues around it. I want sex with my husband. I want to be able to discuss that with him and maybe work out something so that we can be sexual together even if his equipment isn't working. There are lots and lots of things that two people can do when certain parts aren't working.

3. My feelings. I don't expect him to listen to me talk about my feelings. What I do want is to find better ways of giving myself the space that I need to feel my feelings. I am not sure how to approach this. I was feeling angry the other day and he said in an accusatory tone, "What is wrong with you? Is there something you need to tell me? Your personality has changed." Yes, I was angry. I was trying to deal with it. It makes it difficult to deal with when somebody else takes my anger personally. I need to find better ways of handling this and perhaps finding a way to set a boundary. Not sure what to think about it. I know that I need to do a better job of letting myself feel things without trying to dismiss myself or take it out on anyone.

[vortex of confusion]

The question I have for you Vortex is a painful one.

Can you forgive him after how he's treated you for the last 17 years or is the resentment so great that it will always keep you from seeing his efforts?

I feel like I have been on the receiving end of this exchange many times. But for her the resentment never goes away it only gets recycled. We make mistakes, as a man we make a lot of mistakes. Being told that we are a failure in our wife's eyes only eats at us more and causes us to make more mistakes because we are too worried about screwing up again. We are too afraid to upset you that we can't do the right thing because we aren't sure what that is anymore.

Thanks for asking that question! I have asked myself that question quite a bit.

I am aware of him making mistakes. In all honesty, I feel like I overlook too much already.

I know that he feels like a failure. Whenever I try to have a conversation with him, it seems like he brings that up. I feel like he uses my attempts to push for more intimacy and a better relationship as me seeing him as a failure. I feel like there isn't really a good way to bring up things.

I asked him today, "Are you afraid of talking to me?" "Am I mean?" "What can I do to help you feel more comfortable talking to me?"

I am so tenderfooted about how I approach some topics. I don't think there is any way to have some of these discussions. I am not asking him to do anything other than follow through. I want his words to match his actions. If they aren't matching, then I want to be able to say something without coming across as a jerk. I am a firm believer in being as kind as possible whenever possible.

[Hmcbart]

I know for me the most difficult part is forgiveness but not of her, forgiveness of myself. I wrestle with this constantly. How do I forgive myself for putting up with 20 years of abuse and neglect. That's how I feel.

I know that she doesn't feel the need to forgive because in her mind its was all my fault. So how do I forgive myself for blindly accepting all the blame that brought our relationship to where it is today. And if I can forgive, how do I leave the past where it belongs and try to move forward.

Will she continue to treat me the same as always if I forgive? Probably. Will she continue to remind me of everything I did or sometimes didn't say that caused her to be angry? Probably.

Forgiveness isn't about forgetting what happened. Our past is what shapes our future. Good or bad, it's always going to be there and we have to learn to accept that and move forward or not accept it and still move forward.

I feel truly sorry for what happened to you in the past. I can honestly say that without ever knowing exactly what it was because I feel the same way with my situation. I think about it everyday. I ask myself every time I talk to her if I can feel the way I did before.

The thing is, you're still together even if it's not exactly the way you would like it to be. That means there is still hope. Nothing is ever truly hopeless as long as you believe there is hope.

At least that's what I cling to for my own sake. I know I can't go back and change the way things were and if I could I don't think I would. Those things that happened good and bad shaped who we are today. I like myself the way I am. I no there are still a lot of things about me that can be better and I need to change those for me.

Will it change her and her actions if I change mine? Who knows, but Im going to try until she leaves me or we get better.

[vortex of confusion]

I know for me the most difficult part is forgiveness but not of her, forgiveness of myself. I wrestle with this constantly. How do I forgive myself for putting up with 20 years of abuse and neglect. That's how I feel.

I feel like I have moved beyond that. I am more concerned with pushing things to change moving forward.

I know that she doesn't feel the need to forgive because in her mind its was all my fault. So how do I forgive myself for blindly accepting all the blame that brought our relationship to where it is today. And if I can forgive, how do I leave the past where it belongs and try to move forward.

I have found that it is helpful to take blame out of the equation completely. I am trying to look at it more as he did x, y, z. I did a, b, c. How can I stop doing a, b, c? How can I protect myself from x, y, z?

Will she continue to treat me the same as always if I forgive? Probably. Will she continue to remind me of everything I did or sometimes didn't say that caused her to be angry? Probably.

Hmmm. . .for me, it isn't about forgiving or not. For me, it is more about holding my husband responsible for what he has done. I try not to constantly remind him. When I am angry, I try to own that. It is a balancing act. How do you react when she reminds you of what you said or did? Do you defend yourself? If so, it might be a good idea to stop doing that. From my point of view, it doesn't help when my husband gets defensive. I feel like my husband getting defensive and pretty much telling me that I have no reason to be upset is him trying to control the conversation to make it all about him.

I feel truly sorry for what happened to you in the past. I can honestly say that without ever knowing exactly what it was because I feel the same way with my situation. I think about it everyday. I ask myself every time I talk to her if I can feel the way I did before.

I try not to think about the past every day. I try to think more about what I can do to focus more on myself without worrying so much about how he might react to something. I can pretty much guarantee that I won't feel the way I did before. I don't think I ever want to go back to that because the way I felt when we were younger and first married was young and immature. I am ready for a mature relationship without a lot of the BS. I feel like I am too old for romance or any of that. I want a partner to share my life with without worrying about whether or not I am going to hurt his feelings and have to deal with P/A behavior. If I hurt somebody's feelings, I want them to say, "Hey, that hurt my feelings." I don't want to play guessing games. I have 4 daughters and I survived their toddlerhoods and am now starting to deal with puberty issues. I don't need any more drama. I need a place where I can kick off my shoes and relax.

Will it change her and her actions if I change mine? Who knows, but Im going to try until she leaves me or we get better.

I don't think my husband has any choice but to change if I change my actions. That is part of what I am trying to figure out. I am working on changing how I allow myself to be treated. I am not going to tolerate certain things any more. I am going to push the notion that I am not a mind reader. And, I am going to hold him to the fire a bit by pushing him to follow through with his claim that he wants to show me that he wants me as his wife. I am not sure what that even looks like. I have a vision of it in my head based on other relationships that I have had over the years. I am not looking at just romantic relationships either. I am looking at relationships across the board so I have a better perspective. I think too many people have bought into the romantic vision of relationships that are sold in movies, newstands, and other forms of media. I want something real and I am going to push for that. I am still trying to figure out how to do that though so I welcome any questions and thoughts that might prod me to think or question things better.

[Ceruleanblue]

With BPDh, even if I use "I" statements to tell him how I feel, he is often defensive, and he just escalates super quickly and becomes dsyregulated. It's like I can know I'm calm, that what I want to discuss isn't that big a deal, but he twists it in his head into a big deal, and he creates a big deal where there didn't need to be one.

It does make it hard to communicate when there has been a steady pattern of that. I've kept trying, and it's become some better since he's now in DBT, but it's still clearly something he's triggered by. He views "talks" as a bad thing, instead of seeing good can come of them.

Like you, I sometimes feel all I do is tiptoe around his feelings, and spend so much time validating him, while I get so little back, and actually discussing it is nearly impossible with him. This thread is giving me some ideas too. Funny how so many of us deal with such similar issues.

[Notwendy]

I don't find talking to be very effective in my marriage. In fact, sometimes opening up my feelings seems like an invitation for him to be hurtful. This has been frustrating. The more I tried to talk, the more it seemed that talking made things worse. So what does one do?

I read two books that were helpful to me in understanding this. I do keep in mind that books written for relationships generally may not apply exactly to BPD, but relationship issues can apply to many couples- we can have "venus and mars" issues too. I think a BPD marriage may need more than the advice in the books, but I think it is possible to find things that help in them.

These books helped me with the dilemma- how to talk less without disconnecting. This is hard for me because I am a talker, but my H is not. In fact, trying to talk is a repellent to him and he will avoid it. However, every couple needs to talk some. I have decided to save most heavy topics for when we are in MT so that they don't degenerate. So I don't think I could go without talking at all, but having the T makes it possible for me to try to save many discussions for then.  


How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It Paperback – April 29, 2008

by Patricia Love

Love Without Hurt: Turn Your Resentful, Angry, or Emotionally Abusive Relationship into a Compassionate, Loving One  Steven Stosny

These are companion books.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

A general statement:

Remember that pwBPD traits need to be "prepared" to talk and listen... .basically to communicate in "our" world.

Also... .if in the midst of the conversation... .they are triggered... .it can take some work to get them back to baseline... .or "our" world.

Yep... .that is a lot of work and prep... .and work.  I'm thinking that if there is going to be a "push"... .that you expend your energy in the prep side of things... .then try to get out your truth.  Let him have 1 or 2 follow ups... .and end it.

I'll wait on your answer to what we are "pushing towards"... .to put any more info in here.

FF

[Hmcbart]

Just a question: how do you hold someone responsible for what they have done without some form of action (usually punishment) on your part?

If he hurt you does he need to be hurt in return to be held responsible?

If he has shown no remorse for his actions then I can understand this. That's why I struggle with forgiveness, the lack of remorse on the other persons end. But from what you said earlier, he has shown some remorse. Unless this is a reoccurring trend and his remorse is just an act to get out of trouble, then he has tried to show remorse.

And I do get defensive when I'm reminded of everything I've done wrong. It's natural to get defensive. If you don't get defensive then chances are your a sociopath and remorse isn't even in your vocabulary.

And to your thoughts on relationships. I'm a romantic so I believe in that sort of thing, but I'm also a realist and know it's not really going to happen with my wife. But if I can me and she doesn't follow suit then I will deal with that then. I cannot push for her to change because the harder I push her the more she pushes back.


Picture you and your husband on a cliff but standing there facing each other. Behind him a cliff of despair and darkness. From your point of view there is no cliff behind him, just a beautiful sandy beach with palm trees. You see paradise but he only see darkness when he looks back there.

You try to talk him into going to the beach behind him but he can't see it and doesn't believe you. You talk until you can't talk anymore. Finally in desparation you push him towards the beach. He believes your pushing him off the cliff behind him. He pushes back and sometimes more forcefully than he was pushed because to him it a matter of life and death. The harder you push the harder he pushes back until now you are farther from your beach but the cliff behind him is still right there. Your feels further away and more out of reach but his cliff is always right behind him.

Now instead of trying to push him back, you try to walk with him along the edge. Your beach is still in sight but so is the cliff. But with each step you take you begin to gently nudge him towards your beach. He may freak out and push back a little but not like before. As you continue to nudge him along the way, his cliff will begin to move towards your beach until he can see a glimmer of the sand as well. The cliff unfortunately will always be there for him, but your beach is now reachable.

[married21years]

you have nothing to be defensive about, this inst about you they are projecting usually. this is avoidance. stay calm 

[vortex of confusion]

Yep... .that is a lot of work and prep... .and work.  I'm thinking that if there is going to be a "push"... .that you expend your energy in the prep side of things... .then try to get out your truth.  Let him have 1 or 2 follow ups... .and end it.

I feel like I have been doing the prep work for the last couple of months. I haven't really tried to have any discussions about anything heavy in a while. When he had his magical epiphany a couple of months ago, I said a few things and told him that things were going to be hard for me. I don't feel like I have pushed anybody but myself in the last couple of months.

I'll wait on your answer to what we are "pushing towards"... .to put any more info in here.

I thought I answered that up above. I want better communication and I am not talking about verbal only. My husband is the talker around here. If he doesn't have his nose buried in a book or the computer, he is sleeping or talking.

[Ceruleanblue]

NotWendy & Formflier: What you stated above was just what I needed to read today. I too have found that trying to talk to BPDh just makes the situation worse 9 times out of 10. Maybe I need to leave those issues I feel really need addressed until we have MC? Also, I'm confused as to some of what our therapist meant last night, but what Formflier stated our T also stated last night: about preparing my husband about a talk. Basically he said to prepare him for it, ask if we could talk later, then BPDh knows it's coming. Do you think he suggested this because he suspects husband of having BPD, or more of the Mars/Venus difference between us?

Either way, I guess it's good to try it. I have noticed that talking rarely helps us, which is so hard to live with.

[Grey Kitty]

There is a dynamic here... .and I was on the other side of it.

Your H: (didn't do what you hoped/wanted/expected)

You: Expressed disappointment/criticized him.

In your case, I suspect you are expressing what you want fairly clearly, and he's not living up to it. In my case, there were a lot of games, including "If I have to ask, it doesn't count" or always finding a way to make my efforts be "not good enough" somehow or other... .But while we were different sides of that issue, we had the pwBPD on the other side.

So having been on the other side, let me tell you what *I* wanted. You may need to throw some extra validation and communication tools for a pwBPD in the mix.

I wanted to be told what I could do that would be RIGHT, not told that what I did was wrong. "What were you thinking?" is an invitation to JADE all over the place, and doesn't feel good fro anybody.

"Next year would you please tell me you don't know what to do for our anniversary" would have gone over a lot better for me.

Do you see how much easier that is to hear and respond well to than "What were you thinking?"

[vortex of confusion]

Just a question: how do you hold someone responsible for what they have done without some form of action (usually punishment) on your part?

I don't listen to blaming somebody or something else. My husband has a habit of blaming things on his addiction. For a while it was his mother. When he goes off on blaming somebody or something else, I can try to say, "Yes, all of those things contributed to this situation. What are you planning to do when put in a bad situation again?" I want to know that he has tools in place to handle things on his own.

If he hurt you does he need to be hurt in return to be held responsible?

That isn't my line of thinking at all. There are times that I wish he knew how much he hurt me. I know that isn't going to happen so I am trying not to even think about that part. What I am doing to hold him responsible is NOT listening to some things. He used to use me as his personal therapist. If he had a problem, he would bring it to me and expect me to solve it or help him. A lot of it had to do with his sexual acting out. I do NOT want or need to hear about women that he is talking to on the internet. I do NOT need to hear that he is thinking about having sex with some other woman. I cannot handle being his personal therapist. I won't do it. He can talk to his 12 step sponsor, guys in his group, or he can make an appointment with his counselor.

If things are happening in the moment, I can insist that there be a basic level of communication. Instead of running over things without telling anybody what is going on, I can work on asking him questions like "What are you doing?" And if he starts yelling at me or the kids, I can tell him "Stop yelling." When he gets defensive and tells me, "I am not yelling at you. I am raising my voice to be heard." I can tell him what complete BS that is and that I am not going to talk to him when he gets like that. I am not talking about some kind of grand thing where I am trying to hold him accountable for every little bitty thing that he has done for 17 years. I have slipped and gone there. I try not to because there is enough in the present to try to deal with.

If he has shown no remorse for his actions then I can understand this. That's why I struggle with forgiveness, the lack of remorse on the other persons end. But from what you said earlier, he has shown some remorse. Unless this is a reoccurring trend and his remorse is just an act to get out of trouble, then he has tried to show remorse.

I don't care if he shows remorse or not. In my opinion, if a person is truly remorseful, he/she will change his/her behavior. A person can say all kinds of things to express remorse. Where the rubber meets the road is when the other person takes clear steps to make sure that certain things don't happen again. When those things continue to happen, I don't see remorse. I see lip service and empty words.

The recurring pattern is that I get mad and try to bring up something. He gets upset and acts all remorseful and tells me what I want to hear. I get happy because he has shown remorse and said that he will address it. He might do okay for a little bit. After I relax, he goes right back to doing the same things that he has always done. Two months ago, he told me that he wants me as his wife, blah, blah, blah. I pretty much told him to prove it. I don't feel like he is putting much effort into it. I feel like he is doing barely enough to appease me. He is doing just enough to throw it in my face when I try to bring up the fact that he isn't really checking in.

I know that I am not crazy. His counselor told him that she was having a difficult time talking to him because it was like the lights are on but nobody is home. That is the way it is more often than not.

And I do get defensive when I'm reminded of everything I've done wrong. It's natural to get defensive. If you don't get defensive then chances are your a sociopath and remorse isn't even in your vocabulary.

I disagree with this to a degree. Why can't you walk away? Why not find the truthful elements in what is being said? My husband has told me that I am doing things wrong. If he is right, I tell him. I don't have any problems admitting that I am wrong. Even if I think that I am right, I can still try to validate his perception of things and try to use it to get more information about the situation.

Everything that I have read on the forums has said don't JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain). All that does is add fuel to the fire. I have enough self awareness to know when I am feeling defensive with my husband. I can walk away from the conversation or try to be very careful about how I word things. As long as we were both being defensive, nothing changed. As I cut back on being defensive, so did he. We both still slip from time to time but it has gotten a whole lot better.  

Now instead of trying to push him back, you try to walk with him along the edge. Your beach is still in sight but so is the cliff. But with each step you take you begin to gently nudge him towards your beach. He may freak out and push back a little but not like before. As you continue to nudge him along the way, his cliff will begin to move towards your beach until he can see a glimmer of the sand as well. The cliff unfortunately will always be there for him, but your beach is now reachable.

I appreciate the analogy. I don't really understand it to be quite honest. I have been gently nudging him for years. I don't feel like it has accomplished much other than me getting sucked into his world. I am trying to get out of his world and not get sucked back in. I think I have a pretty clear understanding of what is going on with him. I can't focus on that or even think about it too much. I really need to keep the focus on me.

I am working with a trauma coach and that is what she keeps telling me. Keep the focus on me and what I want and what I need. People telling me to think more about him and his needs is kind of like reintroducing the trauma. One of the things that she pointed out to me yesterday is that I still don't trust myself and my perception of things. I want to focus on what I want and need but I also want to make sure that I am not being mean about it, which is why I am trying to figure out how hard to push.  

[vortex of confusion]

In your case, I suspect you are expressing what you want fairly clearly, and he's not living up to it. In my case, there were a lot of games, including "If I have to ask, it doesn't count" or always finding a way to make my efforts be "not good enough" somehow or other... .But while we were different sides of that issue, we had the pwBPD on the other side.

Hmmm. . .I know that I feel like his efforts aren't good enough. I have a standing request for any and all special days. I want a clean house. That's it. I admit that I do get frustrated and tongue tied when I tell him, "I want x, y, and z." and then don't get it. He made no effort to clean until I got up and did it myself. He helped a little but that was it. I felt like he helped just enough to say he helped. `

Here is an example: I went to the bathroom and saw that the towel cabinet was empty. I gathered up laundry and checked the washer and dryer. There was a load in both. I think he did them last night. What has he been doing all morning? Playing his computer games. When he saw me doing laundry, he did get up and help. Most of the time, I don't care.

I do get really sick and tired of him doing just enough to say that he has done something. I am sure that my frustration comes through at different times. And I know that when it comes through, he feels attacked and doesn't know what to do. I am not sure how to handle that in all honesty. I am going to get frustrated from time to time.

I wanted to be told what I could do that would be RIGHT, not told that what I did was wrong. "What were you thinking?" is an invitation to JADE all over the place, and doesn't feel good fro anybody.

I realize that saying that was really bad. I wasn't careful with my words. I was mad and frustrated. I feel like I have spent a lot of years telling him what he can do right. I feel like I try to tell him what I want and need. Telling him directly doesn't seem to make much difference. I spent an hour talking to my trauma coach yesterday. One of the questions that she asked was, "When is the last time that he did something really nice for you." It took me a minute but I finally remembered something that he bought me a little figurine for my village at Christmas time. I praised the heck out of him over that and rewarded him as best I could.

I know I screwed up when I said "what were you thinking". Darn it, I am entitled to a screw up from time to time.

"Next year would you please tell me you don't know what to do for our anniversary" would have gone over a lot better for me.

Ugh, I know this intellectually. For the last two years our anniversary has sucked. For the last two years, I have told him that I wanted him to act like he wanted me as his wife for our anniversary. When I type it out, it sounds vague and wishy washy. I know he does better with direct instructions. Even with direct instructions, it is quite likely that he will forget to follow through.

Since you are a guy, do you have any suggestions on how I can tell him some of this. My first thought is that I want him to love me like he means it. That is vague and impossible and leaves way too much room for interpretation.

How do I tell him something like this with the correct "I"s and "you"s and validation, etc.: "All I wanted for our anniversary was a clean house. How friggin' difficult is it for you to get up and work on cleaning the house without me having to say something or start doing it myself? I didn't create some kind of grand mystery guessing game. I told you that I wanted to have a nice dinner with you and you ate biscuits and gravy all friggin' day long so that when it came time for dinner, you weren't hungry."

It is kind of irrelevant at this point. I have kept a lot of this to myself and am posting it here instead of talking to him about it.

Do you see how much easier that is to hear and respond well to than "What were you thinking?"

Yeah, I know. When somebody asks ME "What were you thinking?" one of the first responses I have is pure snark and tends to fall along the lines of "I was thinking that I hate you."

[formflier]

  Do you think he suggested this because he suspects husband of having BPD, or more of the Mars/Venus difference between us?

Yes... .to both.

My take on the mars venus thing... .is that generally... .BPD traits acts like a magnifying glass... .men are more "mannish"... .woman get a big more "womanish" (not always... .general statement).

I think most men (me included) need to be given a heads up... .that something is coming.

If I am sitting around thinking long and hard about whether or not I'm going to use self etching primer after sanding rusty metal to a bright finish... .or... .lightly scuffing and using a rust converter to get a base... .

(anyone with opinions... .let's talk... .PM or start a new thread... .!    )

The chances of me jumping into a "heart" conversation with my wife... .and her thinking that I'm "hearing her" are about zero.  I've noticed as I  age... .I don't "shift gears" as easy as I used to .  I used to be able to multi-task with the best of them... .now I abhor doing that.

I know lots of men that feel same way... .(I'm sure there are some that this doesn't apply to)

Anyway... .I think the point is to prep for the conversation... .an at the start of the conversation... .realize it is likely the other person has a different point of view and different experience... .

FF

[formflier]

 

VOC,

I think I'm getting to know you pretty good.  Most peoples "style" of communication (remember... .I'm the big degreed expert    ) is consistent.

So... .I'm with GK... .when he says that by and large... .he thinks you are clearly expressing what you want/need to your hubby... .I agree with that.

Especially about things like clean the house... .do this... .very... .simple things.

I have a hard time connecting the dots on how your husband can play video games all day... .and ignore basic... .simple... .household tasks.  I can see where getting those done would be huge to you.  Also would be good for him... .he seems to be acting very childish... .not grown up at all.

But... .YOU DON'T NEED TO BE INVOLVED IN FIXING THAT... .YOU ARE NOT HIS ACCOUNTABILITY.  (see my other post from today... .yep... .another email from my wife... .sorry... .sore spot for me today)

That being said... .if he says he wants to improve the r/s... .and he is taking small steps... .I would ask him to involved his sponsors... .others to be his DAILY accountability partner on when "work" is done... .and it is time to play. 

Let someone else do the heavy lifting here... .you can validate how hard this is. 

Last question for now.  Would you rather be surprised on your anniversary with his version... .or would you like to spell it out clearly for him... .and hope he gets somewhere close?

Hope this helps... .

Allen

[formflier]

 

Jade alert... .or soapbox alert

If you are not ready for a formflier bloviation... .move along... .

BPD in men... .seems to be like an extended teenagerhood for many... .playing videogames... .eating all day long... .no chores... .no responsibility... .basically existing for the fun of life.

I have... .and I am raising some teen boys... .this is a normal part of their growing up... .but they grow out of it... .there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Currently working on the 14 year old boy to "act" respectful... .I don't care ( I do... .but you get the point)... .if he feels like respecting me or other adults... .or not... .he needs to have the ability to do so... .to act like a gentleman... .when you don't feel that way.

To be in a marriage with someone like this... .has to be incredibly frustrating (I'm sure others can add more appropriate words... .go ahead VOC! )

Well... .I've also raised and I'm raising teenage girls... .and I don't see the corollary of "arrested development" in the way BPD presents in woman.

So... .I don't think there is a normal stage of girls development where they act "queenish" or "waifish".

I don't have a point... .more of an observation and a question... .does BPD develop differently in men and woman.  It sure seems to present itself very differently.

Thoughts?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

I have a hard time connecting the dots on how your husband can play video games all day... .and ignore basic... .simple... .household tasks.  I can see where getting those done would be huge to you.  Also would be good for him... .he seems to be acting very childish... .not grown up at all.

His version is that he doesn't play video games all day. He shares his computer with one of the kids so when she is up and doing stuff on the computer, that prevents him from playing. His version is that he has cut way back on the video games. Yes, that is true and I try to validate that. Not being on the computer is not the same as checking in and taking initiative with household tasks.

This may not be the best approach but I have tested things to see if I am imagining stuff. I continually remind the kids to take their dishes to the kitchen. I have deliberately not said anything and not reminded anybody for a day or two. A bowl can sit on the end table for days on end and nobody will take it to the kitchen until I remind them. He is a parent. He can ask the kids as easily as I can or he can pick it up and take it to the kitchen just as easily as I can.

He has gotten better about taking out the trash in the kitchen. There are still days when I get up and the trash is full. I have left it to see how long it will take him to see that it needs emptied. Sometimes I say something and sometimes I don't. It really depends. His behavior is NOT that of a grown adult. When I have tried to talk to people in real life about him that are friends, I get stuff like, "Oh, he just needs you to take care of him."  

That being said... .if he says he wants to improve the r/s... .and he is taking small steps... .I would ask him to involved his sponsors... .others to be his DAILY accountability partner on when "work" is done... .and it is time to play. 

Hmmm. . .I know he works with his sponsor about sex addiction stuff and NOT acting out by answering ads and fantasizing, etc. I don't know how to approach this with him. I tend to mix in work and play and go back and forth between playing and working. He can't switch gears like that. When I have tried to bring up basic household stuff, I get things like, "I am trying. Am I doing better?" Or, he will start pointing out the things that he has done. Yes, he does do some stuff. He isn't consistent. I have to fight the urge to enumerate all of the things that I do on a daily basis. I wake up in the morning thinking about what to feed the kids, whether or not any bills need paid, whether or not anything is needed at the store, my work, whether or not there is laundry, and whatever else I might need to do for the day.

He gets up, makes the coffee, and goes straight to playing his games. He will spend an hour or two playing his games before getting ready for work in the morning. That is how he prepares for his day. Somewhere in there, he does his morning reading which entails reading his prayer books and his 12 step books. I have made some progress because the kids and I can at least ask him for stuff now. Before, asking him for anything while he was playing his games would lead to him getting snappy. So, I do acknowledge that progress has been made.

Last question for now.  Would you rather be surprised on your anniversary with his version... .or would you like to spell it out clearly for him... .and hope he gets somewhere close?

At this point, I think I would have been happy with either one. Actually, no, I think that I wouldn't be happy with his version. He did do his version. His version was to leave me a note to find when I woke up. He went to the grocery store for me (which he does a lot) and he helped me after I started. Later in the evening when nothing was on TV, he put on our favorite movie. I suspect that, in his mind, that was his version of celebrating.

Now, I am wondering if I should just shut up because he wrote me a note and put on a movie. Am I out of line for thinking that he didn't really put forth much effort? The rest of the day was spent with him watching TV, reading, playing the computer, or sleeping. I don't feel like he put forth any effort.

I thought I had spelled out what I wanted. A clean house, a nice breakfast, and a nice dinner. I wanted to hang out with him and have the two of us focus on each other and the kids. And, more importantly, I wanted his undivided attention. I weaseled some attention out of him by asking him to rub my shoulders.

I have even resorted to playfully acting like a child and telling him, "Give me attention." I have tried the adult version too.

I think I am reaching a higher level of acceptance and these are my growing pains.  

[formflier]

I thought I had spelled out what I wanted. A clean house, a nice breakfast, and a nice dinner. I wanted to hang out with him and have the two of us focus on each other and the kids. And, more importantly, I wanted his undivided attention. I weaseled some attention out of him by asking him to rub my shoulders.

I'm assuming that you did nothing to sabotage him from doing this... .(my projection coming)... .

I crave this level of detail for what my wife would want.

Every once in a while I will do that... .but when I turn the kids into a workforce to start making it happen... .she usually will start sabotaging my efforts... .especially when I'm not looking... .Such as hey kiddo wanna go do this with me (insert something fun)... .kids are supposed to say they are working for me... .but they "forget" and off they go.

Plenty of time for apologies later... .

I have a hard time imagining a guy that couldn't make this happen... .assuming there is no sabotage... .or legit emergency.

FF

[Verbena]

VOC, at least you can HAVE a conversation with your husband about issues, even if he just says, "I wasn't thinking."  

In my case, it goes something like this... .

Me:  I am upset about such and such issue... .

Husband:  (looks at me like I have three heads, then walks away)

or

Me:  I am upset about such and such issue... .

Husband:  I don't know what you're talking about.  I do not remember that.

(then walks away)  

Or

Me:  I am upset about such and such issue... .

Husband:  (total silence, does not turn his head toward me, look at me, lips don't move)

Me:  :)id you hear me?  

Husband:  I heard you.  I answered you.  I said ______________.  

It's like a Twilight Zone moment.  

My husband refuses to discuss ANYTHING with me concerning our dysfunctional marriage.  Not happening.  Won't go there.  

I guess my only advice would be to frame your concerns into questions that would require something other than a yes/no response.  Again, be thankful he will at least speak to you.

As far as  his behavior on your anniversary, I know that is hurtful.  In my marriage there's nothing to celebrate.  Every year when it comes around, I am reminded what a joke our marriage is.  My husband won't even say "happy birthday" to me or apologize when I get upset that he doesn't.  

[vortex of confusion]

Currently working on the 14 year old boy to "act" respectful... .I don't care ( I do... .but you get the point)... .if he feels like respecting me or other adults... .or not... .he needs to have the ability to do so... .to act like a gentleman... .when you don't feel that way.

I am working with my girls on how to not be such b***es when feeling hormonal. Yes, you are cramping and in pain and you don't know whether you want to cry or punch somebody or cry while punching somebody. With the younger two, it is more about not reacting so much. It is okay to be mad but it isn't okay to be a jerk kind of thing.

To be in a marriage with someone like this... .has to be incredibly frustrating (I'm sure others can add more appropriate words... .go ahead VOC! )

Frustrating doesn't even begin to touch how I feel some days. I don't understand how a grown man can't see some of this stuff. With all of the friggin' movies and media out there about what women want and how difficult women can be, you would think that my husband would see that I am NOT being a demanding B word. I ask for very little and I give a boat load. He isn't trying to wine and dine me or do anything out of the ordinary. I can't tell you the number of articles that I have read about how to speak a man's language and how to please a man, blah, blah, blah. I even know about the male g-spot. I could go on all friggin' day about the things that I have done. I have even given him simple things like, "Hey, read this article so we can talk about it."

Well... .I've also raised and I'm raising teenage girls... .and I don't see the corollary of "arrested development" in the way BPD presents in woman.

Hmmm. . .prepubescence maybe? My second daughter just hit puberty. The oldest said, "Gosh, she irritates me. She acts just like dad." So, I am thinking that perhaps with girls it is the prepubescent period when they are moody, difficult to please, and make a whole lot of big deals out of a whole lot of nothing. I seem to recall my oldest going through that too. She still has her moments but the craziness seems to have passed.

So... .I don't think there is a normal stage of girls development where they act "queenish" or "waifish".

Around the time the menses start (just before and just after)!

[vortex of confusion]

I'm assuming that you did nothing to sabotage him from doing this... .(my projection coming)... .

I am going to have to pay more attention to whether or not I am sabatoging things. You know the obvious answer is, "Of course not, I would never intentionally sabatoge my husband. I don't have BPD and I am perfect."   In all seriousness, I am trying to think about whether or not I did sabatoge anything. I think me getting angry at the beginning of the day threw him off kilter and led to him checking out. I feel like I was justified in being angry that I woke up to him playing his games instead of doing things around the house. I shouldn't have been bothered by it because that is how he starts all of his days. Why did I think that this day would be any different?

I crave this level of detail for what my wife would want.

Anybody that knows me in real life knows that I am pretty easy to please. I have this joke that I make that goes something along the lines of, "I don't care what you do as long as you put some thought into it. I would be happy with a turd on a stick."

Every once in a while I will do that... .but when I turn the kids into a workforce to start making it happen... .she usually will start sabotaging my efforts... .especially when I'm not looking... .Such as hey kiddo wanna go do this with me (insert something fun)... .kids are supposed to say they are working for me... .but they "forget" and off they go.

I know that the kids play him and I off of each other when either of us tries to turn the kids into a workforce. I make allowances for that. On mother's day, him and the kids "cleaned" while I was at work. I was very pleased but couldn't help but laugh because their idea of cleaning was to stack everything up and vacuum. I didn't complain. I chuckled. There are nights when I am at work and am not here at all. There is no excuse if I am not here at all.

I have a hard time imagining a guy that couldn't make this happen... .assuming there is no sabotage... .or legit emergency.

His usual excuse is that time got away from him. He didn't think. He didn't know what to do.

And, I will be perfectly honest that there have been times that I have sabatoged things. My sabatoging usually occurs well after I have given him ample time and ample opportunity. Really, I don't know if it is sabatoge or me getting to a point where I blow my stack.

A legit emergency. . .The guys on his server needed his help with a quest. He was going to finish his quest and then do whatever!

[vortex of confusion]

I guess my only advice would be to frame your concerns into questions that would require something other than a yes/no response.  Again, be thankful he will at least speak to you. 

I have spent a lot of time working to get to this point. There was a point in time when it felt like any and all discussion was taken as a personal attack. One day, he called me a b**h and then vehemently denied it. I turned that one into a fight. He finally admitted that he thought it but didn't think he actually said it.

I have been down the road of not being able to discuss things at all. I have done a lot of work to get things to this point. I want to keep pushing things.

I know this sounds mean. I am not going to be thankful that he will at least speak to me. That attitude has gotten me in trouble in the past. I was so busy being thankful for what I had that I didn't push for more or better. I spent a whole lot of time dismissing myself with things like, "Be thankful that he isn't beating me. Be thankful that he is only doing x, and not y."

I am not going to be thankful that he will at least speak to me. I think finding the good things is a great place to start. I have done that and am ready to move forward and push beyond that.