Who Else Tortures Themselves Over Their Replacement?

[AdRock]

I read many an old thread on here along these lines and was just curious other people's thoughts if they are in a similar boat to mine and replaced almost immediately.  For me personally, I feel great conflict over it.  Naturally, I know my ex lover is someone who is in a great deal of pain and deep down is not a malicious person.  Coupled with the fact she has a child and actually deserves to be happy like all of us, I do not want to wish ill of her.  On the other hand, logically based on her history, I do not see how it would be any different with my replacement than it was with me.  But there is that massive ego blow on top of the rejection where I find myself thinking, "maybe this is the one to help her get better for once".

[NotAHero]

I read many an old thread on here along these lines and was just curious other people's thoughts if they are in a similar boat to mine and replaced almost immediately.  For me personally, I feel great conflict over it.  Naturally, I know my ex lover is someone who is in a great deal of pain and deep down is not a malicious person.  Coupled with the fact she has a child and actually deserves to be happy like all of us, I do not want to wish ill of her.  On the other hand, logically based on her history, I do not see how it would be any different with my replacement than it was with me.  But there is that massive ego blow on top of the rejection where I find myself thinking, "maybe this is the one to help her get better for once".

 I think a helpful perspective would be to worry about one self and realize that the Xbpd is not your problem anymore. What can you do to make yourself happy? 

 I know it’s easier said than done especially in the beginning. Think about it this way too, do you really envy the replacement for what they are getting themselves into? Also if the replacement turns to be malicious do you envy the poor BPD for the abuse coming their way?

 There are better, healthier matches out there for us.

[Mutt]

Hey AdRock,

I think that some times from the outside it may seem like things are fairly stable for our expwBPD and we're not feeling as good because we're grieving a loss. It helps to talk about it.

I had similar feelings as you. There was a period where I felt like that. Going back and forth with knowing with certainty that the new person is going to get the sane treatment then doubting myself and thinking that this could be the one that heals my exuBPDw.

As you probably know that BPD is a very serious mental illness that requires intensive therapy and our love doesn't cure the illness.

[Turkish]

As you probably know that BPD is a very serious mental illness that requires intensive therapy and our love doesn't cure the illness.

Yep.

I thought I was replaced, but rather than thinking of the next person as a replacement, I came to prefer to think of myself as a placeholder: a temporary balm for a person who experiences deep emotional pain and inner shame.

[AdRock]

@NotAHero - Absolutely, trust me, that is one of my many short term goals at the moment.  Naturally, anyone on here knows it is difficult in the beginning.  I think, based on two things in dealing with my ex, I'm having a difficult time at the moment.  One, even though her marriage isn't over, I'm fairly certain her current dude is her first long distance relationship (wondering if that will make it easier for her for some reason).  Two ... well, she has cycled back to me 4 times in 15 years (not always romantic, but always intense; in fact, it keeps getting more intense each time for some reason).  So, if history is the best predictor, I'm worried what state of mind I'll be in if she does cycle back again.

@Mutt - True, without therapy, it won't work in the long term, I know that.  I think for me, you wonder if any of them will be the one to get them into therapy.  Which is my bruised ego and heartache of course but it doesn't make it easier right now.

@Turkish - I like that analogy of a temporary balm.  I know she's in a lot of inner pain.  I know that's why I sympathize with individuals with bpd since I don't like the approach of viewing them as bad (since too many other sites have hurt people who view them that way).  I know it doesn't make how they treated us easier to deal with it, but if we can heal and let go, we can forgive them and ourselves for what happened.

Long story short, obviously I'm not there yet.

[once removed]

there is that massive ego blow on top of the rejection where I find myself thinking, "maybe this is the one to help her get better for once".

sure. i felt that. dwelled on it. pictured it, played it out in my head.

at the time, i coped by downplaying him, downplaying her, downplaying whatever they had.

it wasnt all wishful thinking. i never have been a big believer in running away from the grieving process with a new relationship. i was also privy to some news about them that made it sound, frankly, like something i wouldnt necessarily trade my position for. thats the truth, even today.

however, and this was with the benefit of healing of course, i realized that, generally speaking, everyone does a little bit better each time, with a new relationship. every new partner is, generally speaking, a better fit than the last. and that ultimately, attaching my recovery to whether my exs new relationship succeeded or failed (it failed, but they lasted longer than mine did) was a lost cause.

when it comes to rejection, generally speaking, we can see it in very personal terms...that there is something inherently, deeply flawed about us, that we arent worthy of love, that we arent good enough. or we can see it for what it is: simply not connecting with one person out of billions, with whom we are better suited.

the same is really true when we break up with a partner, and we, and they, go on to new relationships. context is important here, of course: its pretty difficult not to internalize it when an ex coldly leaves a relationship, jumps into another one, as if we seemingly never existed. it compounds the pain, and the grieving process, and that is a unique wound that needs tending. the fact is,  though, that coping mechanism (overlapping relationships) is no more about us than whether their relationship succeeds or fails.

the hard truth is that with billions of people out there, there is someone(s) out there that is a better fit for my ex than i. the silver lining is that likewise, there is someone out there that is a better fit for me. not someone thats necessarily "better" than me, as a partner, as a lover, as a person, and likewise, there are lots of qualities my ex had that i would love to find in a future partner, but letting go of her involved seeing that her and i, as much as we loved each other, were also bad for each other, couldnt make it work, and that there are many others out there who are a better fit for both of us.

if it helps, though, the flaw in thinking when it comes to this torture process, is that assuming someone out there is a better overall "fit" for your ex, there is no relationship that will save her or heal her. relationships are not a cure for trauma or baggage. while ideally we "do a little better each time", many of us bring our baggage from relationship to relationship, and compound that baggage. the idea that someone will cure your ex (i know, you didnt exactly say that, im simplifying here) is the same flawed thinking that drives the coping mechanism of overlapping relationships (in bpd or otherwise), that someone will save us from that baggage we carry.

its a fantasy for her, its torture for you. it is baggage that, as you heal, you can let go of.

[Manic Miner]

I feel you Adrock. We share a lot about the same issue and similar thinking - my BPD W is not bad, she's a great mother and when let loose of her masks, faking (coping mechanism) she is exceptionally friendly, creative and joyful person. She can touch your inner soul as she has child-like happiness and attention to small details that other seem to miss.

But getting her to that state is harder and harder as her masks she put to hide all sorts of things, to pretend she is much more serious are getting bigger and responsibilities are hitting her. She is losing that inner child in order to fit with society and other people.

Back to your topic, I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to her and, like you, do have issues of thinking she will be bad/the same with a new guy and will never find peace. Or maybe some new guy would be even worse and would wreck havoc to her fragile core. That is not my job, I know, but still saddens me.
 Also when I think about a new guy, I am not entirely happy myself... still cannot let go of my own ego. We are not divorced, but separated, temporarily or not, we don't know.

[Cat Familiar]

I was thrilled when my ex husband immediately found a replacement. I figured that would take his focus off me. Since our divorce had yet to occur, we still were entwined, and I tried to befriend his new girlfriend, thinking that we could all be emotionally healthy adults while the legal process was unfolding.

Wrong. She actively hated me, even though I ended up saving her life after a neighbor’s bull attacked her and she had to be lifeflighted and was in the ICU for over a week. (At the time I was doing EMT training, so I knew exactly what to do before the emergency crews showed up.)

I learned later through a mutual acquaintance that my ex was telling lies about me. I was shocked, even though I’d experienced a lot of abuse from him, I still thought he had some grounding in reality. It became apparent that I had misjudged him from the start. It was always all about whatever served his purpose and he had no true moral compass.

[Zoa]

Adrock iunderstand where you are coming from. 
But it isn’t that we weren’t good enough.  It is that the other person will never find someone good enough because the only way for them to get better is to take responsibility and work on themselves.  No one else can overcome their trauma but them but instead of doing that hard work they run and run and run in search of someone else

[Couscous]

I find myself thinking, "maybe this is the one to help her get better for once"

Do you think that perhaps you might have a touch of “White Knight Syndrome”? See here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=164282

[Rev]

Hey AR

You've got lots of great insight here, and so I won't add much. Except to say, I literally had nightmares on and off about it for six months. 

These days, I have understood something - After the shock of it all, it takes time for our bodies to catch up to our minds. The healing we are looking for to help us stop ruminating is as much physical as it is mental. It is, therefore, by definition, spiritual in the non-religious sense of the word, although for some, their faith plays an integral part of their healing.

Hang in there.

Rev

[Supermoon]

Well said..same here

[Silverdash]

My heart has caught up with logic and sees that there are too many contradictions for the ideal r/s he pretends to have i feel pity for both people. It does hurt some times BUT I remind my self that he is unwell.

[Biggus]

I actually feel bad for the guys she's dating and will date. Probably most of them are okay guys, who will have their hopes up, and will end up more or less confused and disappointed, and always the one before you will be blackpainted to you, like you will be to the next one.

[Cat Familiar]

I actually feel bad for the guys she's dating and will date. Probably most of them are okay guys, who will have their hopes up, and will end up more or less confused and disappointed, and always the one before you will be blackpainted to you, like you will be to the next one.

I got to experience an outsider’s perspective on this. From her, I heard that my ex was trash talking about me when he got together with his new girlfriend. Then two years later, she told me he was saying virtually the same things about my replacement. 

[PeteWitsend]

Yeah, I think the pattern repeats itself with the replacement.

When I was dating uBPDxw, she would frequently complain about her ex-boyfriend, and I assume still talking to him on facebook and what not.  He was in a different country by then, so we never saw him, but she was still not over it.

After I moved out and filed for divorce, she begged me to come back, threatened me, bad mouthed me to our D, and then when she found a replacement, kept trying to mention him in communications and make me jealous, while at the same time refusing to say who was picking up our D From school and whether he lived there or not.  I assume she was bad mouthing me to him, as she had bad mouthed her ex BF to me.

I've also not had to wonder about whether the pattern repeats, because on occasion my daughter mentions how much fighting there is at her mom's house.

So while, yes, every relationship is different, you should practically assume that the pwBPD is the same person they were with you, although the interactions may be a bit different, because the Non is different.

Also, in my case I noticed her BF's attitude toward me has changed a lot over the years.  Initially he seemed almost afraid o me.  Later, he would mirror her confrontational behavior a few times.  In the last year, he's always extremely polite and careful when talking.  I imagine he's now experienced enough grief from her that he questions a lot of what she's told him about me.

it's a different dynamic; between her and I, I was the primary breadwinner and older and more established.  The exact opposite is true between them.  He's also physically smaller than I am, and has gained a lot of weight since I met him.  So I think she probably feels more "secure" around him... like she was constantly accusing me of having affairs, and wanting to leave her for someone else.

[Nal1234]

No I don't at all. She can't do any better than me unless she finds a multi millionaire. Not happening. I'm 28 she's 43 I'm attractive and make 200k a year. Her x'es were all fat slobs. I provided for her and her kids. She hit the jackpot and couldn't even handle that. She can fool someone for a bit but after a few months it comes out. Her last one was by far the hottest girl he ever ever could fin not a joke and and he kicked them out after just three months! I just need to stay away when she does come back im just too young I don't want to waste this stage of my life already have a hot girlfriend but I do miss the little family we had. Oh well

[PeteWitsend]

Did anyone else notice a bit of delusion from their BPDx in terms of the sort of partner the thought they'd be able to "upgrade" to if/when you left?

I recall during a calmer period after the first time we nearly divorced that BPDxw said to me if I did leave her, she had "decided" she'd just go find a rich guy and wouldn't have to worry about anything anymore.

I remember thinking "What 'rich guy' wants to voluntarily tie himself down with a divorcee who's a total head-case, and her kid?" but I said nothing  at the time to keep the peace of the moment. 

[Nal1234]

Did anyone else notice a bit of delusion from their BPDx in terms of the sort of partner the thought they'd be able to "upgrade" to if/when you left?

I recall during a calmer period after the first time we nearly divorced that BPDxw said to me if I did leave her, she had "decided" she'd just go find a rich guy and wouldn't have to worry about anything anymore.

I remember thinking "What 'rich guy' wants to voluntarily tie himself down with a divorcee who's a total head-case, and her kid?" but I said nothing  at the time to keep the peace of the moment. 

Oh yeah absolutely...like it was always a chase I became not enough at times when she was in those moods. Yeah I have money and take care of her and family, do everything around the house, nice vacations, never said no to her to anything. The whole package I was. But oh you don't want to marry me right now, or some small thing I did or didn't do, because of that it's not working. Ok honey. Good luck out there. I did leave her but tryed to go back it didn't work so mine is the opposite of the other ones. She would lock me out for a few days or 2 weeks once but would always come back. The only time I left it was over...at least for now... about 4 months. So maybe her knowing I was willing to leave scared her permanently. Who knows.  She had it all and now she has nothing, scrapes by at best.

[lost_in_FOG]

sure. i felt that. dwelled on it. pictured it, played it out in my head.

at the time, i coped by downplaying him, downplaying her, downplaying whatever they had.

it wasnt all wishful thinking. i never have been a big believer in running away from the grieving process with a new relationship. i was also privy to some news about them that made it sound, frankly, like something i wouldnt necessarily trade my position for. thats the truth, even today.

however, and this was with the benefit of healing of course, i realized that, generally speaking, everyone does a little bit better each time, with a new relationship. every new partner is, generally speaking, a better fit than the last. and that ultimately, attaching my recovery to whether my exs new relationship succeeded or failed (it failed, but they lasted longer than mine did) was a lost cause.

when it comes to rejection, generally speaking, we can see it in very personal terms...that there is something inherently, deeply flawed about us, that we arent worthy of love, that we arent good enough. or we can see it for what it is: simply not connecting with one person out of billions, with whom we are better suited.

the same is really true when we break up with a partner, and we, and they, go on to new relationships. context is important here, of course: its pretty difficult not to internalize it when an ex coldly leaves a relationship, jumps into another one, as if we seemingly never existed. it compounds the pain, and the grieving process, and that is a unique wound that needs tending. the fact is,  though, that coping mechanism (overlapping relationships) is no more about us than whether their relationship succeeds or fails.

the hard truth is that with billions of people out there, there is someone(s) out there that is a better fit for my ex than i. the silver lining is that likewise, there is someone out there that is a better fit for me. not someone thats necessarily "better" than me, as a partner, as a lover, as a person, and likewise, there are lots of qualities my ex had that i would love to find in a future partner, but letting go of her involved seeing that her and i, as much as we loved each other, were also bad for each other, couldnt make it work, and that there are many others out there who are a better fit for both of us.

if it helps, though, the flaw in thinking when it comes to this torture process, is that assuming someone out there is a better overall "fit" for your ex, there is no relationship that will save her or heal her. relationships are not a cure for trauma or baggage. while ideally we "do a little better each time", many of us bring our baggage from relationship to relationship, and compound that baggage. the idea that someone will cure your ex (i know, you didnt exactly say that, im simplifying here) is the same flawed thinking that drives the coping mechanism of overlapping relationships (in bpd or otherwise), that someone will save us from that baggage we carry.

its a fantasy for her, its torture for you. it is baggage that, as you heal, you can let go of.

This was really important for me to read today. I have really been struggling with being replaced.  The torture for me is that I have to see my ex everyday in some capacity because we work together.  We spent 6 years together in a tumultuous relationship in which I was often devalued, belittled, physically abused, but also loved so hard and with such incredibly sweet affection.  The sex and passion we had was incredible and she is drop dead gorgeous. Knowing she is giving all of that positive affection and attention to this new guy has been absolutely destroying me.  Thank you for writing what you did.  I really appreciate this forum.

[SinisterComplex]

This was really important for me to read today. I have really been struggling with being replaced.  The torture for me is that I have to see my ex everyday in some capacity because we work together.  We spent 6 years together in a tumultuous relationship in which I was often devalued, belittled, physically abused, but also loved so hard and with such incredibly sweet affection.  The sex and passion we had was incredible and she is drop dead gorgeous. Knowing she is giving all of that positive affection and attention to this new guy has been absolutely destroying me.  Thank you for writing what you did.  I really appreciate this forum.

You certainly have an apt name for your screen name which ties in to my point here...

I see all the good things and positives about your relationship which keeps you tied to the vicious circle and cycle of thoughts. But, it feels like you are mitigating the negatives and bad things about your relationship. Do not do that to yourself. Instead of thinking about the positives she is giving other dude focus on the other part...the BS  that is coming his way. You were not replaced, you were released and allowed to roam free. Think Shinedown Cut the Cord...Freedom, la la la. Great song...check it out. Even if it isn't your jam I think the meaning behind the song will perhaps help you.

Now honestly moving forward what needs to happen is for you to replace your thoughts of thinking you were replaced to instead thinking oh that poor schmuck has no idea what is in store for him and the S coming his way. Your tour of duty has been served. Release yourself from the weight now.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Manic Miner]

I remember thinking "What 'rich guy' wants to voluntarily tie himself down with a divorcee who's a total head-case, and her kid?" but I said nothing  at the time to keep the peace of the moment.  

Yeah, that's sad. While mine does not threaten with other guys, even saying that she will probably be alone for quite a while if we divorce, she constantly repeats how a guy of her would have to have this, this and that. All kinds of features and traits, to treat her like a princess (something she said to me several times, to which I thought - oh sweet and I'm a jester).

A guy of extraordinary traits, endless understandings and compassion that finds a divorcee that moved to her parents, with a child that has special needs. Yeah, it's around the corner. Truth to be told, I'm sad thinking of this, I would really want her to find someone that could love her and treat our D well.

When I was dating uBPDxw, she would frequently complain about her ex-boyfriend, and I assume still talking to him on facebook and what not.

While gossiping and chit-chatting is benign and we all do it sometimes, esp. in Southern and Eastern Europe , whenever you notice people that frequently complain, gossip or have a habit of complaining behind someone's back, know that you'll soon be on their list when your expiry date reaches the end.
Just let people to talk and they will reveal themselves. You almost don't need to ask any specific question.

[PeteWitsend]

...
... Truth to be told, I'm sad thinking of this, I would really want her to find someone that could love her and treat our D well.

...

This was my thinking as well.  I figured I'd be recycled quickly; I just hoped BPDxw would not go through an endless cycle of new BFs, and would find a decent guy who would stick around, all solely for my D's sake.  

I actually kinda feel bad for him, and am surprised he HAS stuck around..

But as I alluded to in my prior post, he was - by most accounts -- unemployed or barely employed when they met.  He was also younger than her, shorter than her, kinda dumpy, had chronic back problems, and played video games all day.  She complained to mutual friends about him & having to pay for back  surgery for him, and they told me about it.

I assume her takeaway from our divorce was not that she needed to treat her partner(s) decently, it was that she needed to find a guy who was financially dependent on her so he couldn't just pack up and leave when she did her BPD thing

[Couscous]

…he was - by most accounts -- unemployed or barely employed when they met.  He was also younger than her, shorter than her, kinda dumpy, had chronic back problems, and played video games all day. 

Sounds like they are perfect for each other…

[Nal1234]

Did anyone else notice a bit of delusion from their BPDx in terms of the sort of partner the thought they'd be able to "upgrade" to if/when you left?

I recall during a calmer period after the first time we nearly divorced that BPDxw said to me if I did leave her, she had "decided" she'd just go find a rich guy and wouldn't have to worry about anything anymore.

I remember thinking "What 'rich guy' wants to voluntarily tie himself down with a divorcee who's a total head-case, and her kid?" but I said nothing  at the time to keep the peace of the moment. 

I WAS the rich guy...trust me they can't handle us either. Lived the life of Reilly, anything and everything. And honestly she wasn't greedy or asked for much, which made me want to take care of her more...and her kids adored me. So it's never different.

[PeteWitsend]

I WAS the rich guy...trust me they can't handle us either. Lived the life of Reilly, anything and everything. And honestly she wasn't greedy or asked for much, which made me want to take care of her more...and her kids adored me. So it's never different.

Oh, I know.  She was pretty delusional and naive about money & what it meant, how to build wealth and save.  She had grown up poor, and still had these thoughts that having more meant you were happier. 

We were doing very well together near the end of our marriage, after I had made a good career move up the ladder and she started working.  I was making a good salary & with her income on top of that we had a very good financial outlook for the future, but like a lot of people (most BPDers included) she would just focus on what we didn't have, and get upset over that, or get angry if I didn't rush out and buy something she wanted right away. 

I don't think the actual substance mattered to her; she just had an immature view of wanting what others had and she didn't.  She didn't appreciate the future she could have had if she hadn't ruined our marriage the way she did, particularly fighting with my family and refusing to let our D see them, which really left me only one path forward, unless I agreed to completely cut myself off from people who loved me for her sake.

[Nal1234]

Oh, I know.  She was pretty delusional and naive about money & what it meant, how to build wealth and save.  She had grown up poor, and still had these thoughts that having more meant you were happier.  

We were doing very well together near the end of our marriage, after I had made a good career move up the ladder and she started working.  I was making a good salary & with her income on top of that we had a very good financial outlook for the future, but like a lot of people (most BPDers included) she would just focus on what we didn't have, and get upset over that, or get angry if I didn't rush out and buy something she wanted right away.  

I don't think the actual substance mattered to her; she just had an immature view of wanting what others had and she didn't.  She didn't appreciate the future she could have had if she hadn't ruined our marriage the way she did, particularly fighting with my family and refusing to let our D see them, which really left me only one path forward, unless I agreed to completely cut myself off from people who loved me for her sake.

Absolutely similar, but she didn't have any money besides some child support. She can barely work. Has nothing. I took care of her and 3 kids that aren't even mine. She definitely has no idea about what money is, and she got ripped off in her last divorce... pritty much got a few grand...dude has money. I'm lucky I didn't marry her so I'll I lost is the stuff I bought. No big deal. She's keeping my personal stuff I think to keep hanging on, I think she wants back but doesn't know how to do it. I think shes in the stage of wtf did I do there's no prince charming.

We'll see I just have to stay away. I got hot girls going. But still interested in her I can't make sense of it.

Update. She's at home alone on a Saturday night. Im sure since can't afford to go out. When she used to have lobster dinners and spa weekends. Also the anxiety of  comparing the new men to me ...can't compete with me...I am one of the few luck ones here who are obsessed with one who has zero chance of improvement in a partner. And I hurt really bad. And the poor ones who are normal dudes I really feel bad for.

[Nal1234]

Absolutely similar, but she didn't have any money besides some child support. She can barely work. Has nothing. I took care of her and 3 kids that aren't even mine. She definitely has no idea about what money is, and she got ripped off in her last divorce... pritty much got a few grand...dude has money. I'm lucky I didn't marry her so I'll I lost is the stuff I bought. No big deal. She's keeping my personal stuff I think to keep hanging on, I think she wants back but doesn't know how to do it. I think shes in the stage of wtf did I do there's no prince charming.

We'll see I just have to stay away. I got hot girls going. But still interested in her I can't make sense of it.

Update. She's at home alone on a Saturday night. Im sure since can't afford to go out. When she used to have lobster dinners and spa weekends. Also the anxiety of  comparing the new men to me ...can't compete with me...I am one of the few luck ones here who are obsessed with one who has zero chance of improvement in a partner. And I hurt really bad. And the poor ones who are normal dudes I really feel bad for.

Found out last night from neighbor she was home alone all weekend (her weekend without kids) and she is saying she's "tired"
Poor thing is going down the drain knows she messed up her mind must be racing. Im guessing she's at the end of the "greve in reverse" stage because she never would not be going out when kids are gone. She's probably broke too. Or dating app guys aren't an improvement from me. I feel bad for Alot here and pray because it's SO hard on me, and I'm legitimate the one she NEVER will be able to do better. Poor others have to see there bpd get with some improvements I could not imagine that feel and I do pray for you because if that was my case I don't know if I'd be alive.

[Turkish]

"Better" to a pwBPD is emotional survival through the lens of a distorted world-view, additionally affected by often uncontrollable emotions and deep core pain and self-loathing.

If you know what you're really dealing with, it's easier to start Detaching.

As the marriage to the young guy my ex left me for started imploding, she told me over the phone that she should have never left me. They had fought and he stormed out. She was frustrated and in tears. That was one of the closest things i received as an apology, but only because after was in pain and crisis.

These were the natural consequences of her choices. Not to her as she was unable to future- think of consequences. What she did was emotional survival because that's all she knew.

Maybe a year later after they were physically separated, she asked to come back by text  

It wasn't for me as much as she missed the kids.  I could have worked that, but by then I knew what it was: another impulsive decision driven by her out of control emotions at the time.  She was crying and my kids were crying because I had "sent mommy away" after we had lunch and watched a movie at my house. I was also contributing to the drama.

Logically? She'd be better, at least for a time, being with me again. It crossed my mind, even though she was still legally married, but only for a few seconds.

I BIFF declined in response, and that was the last of that. Though I wanted to say so much more, believe me!

If you know what you're really dealing with, it's easier to start Detaching.