What does that say about us?

[Jeffree]

If we were all wrapped up with an adult with the emotional sophistication of a teenager, then what does that say about us?

The thing that's really eating at me is this: Why?

Why did/do we expend so much of our life energy, time, focus, brain space, hopes, dreams, fantasies on these people once we realize they have nothing but ill will toward us?

I think even if these pwBPD turned into the princes and princesses they once showed us they could be, we'd still have to exist as free-standing, independent, self-sufficient human beings.

Please, don't get me wrong, I am not dismissing anyone's pain or experiences or approach to their own situation. I understand all too well the disappointment of having one's dreams crushed like they were nothing by a pwBPD and having to slowly and surely rebuild what remains of my life.

Mine also showed me a relationship that was better than I could have ever imagined.

I just don't get why we agonize over these people when the person behind the curtain is revealed to us to be a cruel, abusive %$#@^&.

J

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Jeffree, Great question!  I suspect that we get so hung up on them because they strike a deep chord within us.  In other words, there is something familiar about the dynamic of a BPD r/s that draws us in, on a subconscious level, which is why some liken a BPD r/s to an addiction.  We know that the r/s is bad for us, but we still want to participate in it, which makes it so insidious.  I suspect it all goes back to some traumatic event from our past, often from childhood or our FOO.  Anyway, that's my theory.

Maybe you have some ideas of your own?  Would enjoy hearing what others think.

LuckyJim

[JNChell]

Hi Jeffree. I have the same feelings and questions as well. I believe that a lot of it for me has been in trying to seek a corrective outcome due to childhood core wounds that were inflicted by my mother. I never got closure from my parents, and it’s all followed me into adulthood. When my ex would get mad, run away, etc., I would always eventually try to “make her love me again”. Try to win her approval. Here’s a real life example. When I was a child, I would often make apology cards with crayons and construction paper for my parents after going through an episode of abuse. Of course I thought I had been bad and deserved it, and I wanted them to love me again and accept me. My sister who is a psychologist has also mentioned attachment issues. The corrective outcome response has been validated by 2 T’s. I’ll need to discuss this stuff further with my current T.

It sounds like you’re pretty frustrated at the moment. Do you have any thoughts on why you stayed with your 2 exes that you’re comfortable sharing? Why? is a huge question for me too, J. I’m always interested to hear other’s POV on this.

[Insom]

Great question, Jeffree! 

I met my BPD-ex as a young person when I was struggling with how to become an adult and separate from my family of origin and he helped me do that.  While the "help" he offered was, I believe, unconscious and sometimes even abusive he did catalyze an important, positive change in my life.

There was (and apparently still is) a strong emotional component to the attachment that is hard to define. 

How about you?

[Duped 1]

Great Question Jeffree and I wish I knew the answer. I got addicted to this POS and put her on a pedestal even though no one has ever treated me so poorly. Makes no sense at all... .

[Jeffree]

My question doesn't really arise out of frustration as much as it does from empathizing with many people's plights here.

I often ask myself, "Why would someone feel compelled to extend this BPD-Non dance any longer than necessary? What makes these pwBPD deserving of our heartache and sweat and tears just to try and have an adult relationship with them when for all intents and purposes they are teenagers?"

I know we all have our valid reasons... .for the sake of the kids; I am afraid of the future; I can't afford it; he has all the power in the community; I am on assistance and disabled; religious beliefs; etc. I get it. These are very serious challenges, but I have to think at a certain point that being with nobody and having nothing is better than being abused by anyone.

Why did I stay? With my first ex wife there really weren't any problems between she and I. It was everyone else she had major problems with. Then one day she said she couldn't live like this anymore (whatever that meant) then up and left. Turns out she was having an affair with her boss, and that was the end of that.

With my STBxW for a long time I had become so embroiled in the dog and pony show that it actually did seem as if only if I could clear this one issue up, play by her rules, get her to hear me, get her to see me for who I am, apologize, when SD moves out there'll be less for us to fight over, blah, blah, blah.

Basically, the feeling was that of drowning and fighting for my life. While in the heat of the battle, while that inner panic was playing, I went numb to my surroundings and how much time had elapsed during the struggle and I wasn't in touch with any of my feelings, needs, or what have you.

Now, on the other side, having finally swum to shore, I am relieved to not have to fight this battle anymore. All the bad has erased any good. The desire to hear from her, know of her whereabouts, to reach out to her, to see her have all been squashed a long time ago. I hope to never date anyone like her ever again.

J

[Harley Quinn]

Great topic Jeffree!

For myself, I felt that my ex and I knew one another on a deeper level.  We understood one another because we recognised each other's wounds.  We were both broken.  A large part of why I stayed was because in being there and not giving up on him was recognition of that fact.  I was doing what I hoped someone would do for me.  To care enough to validate and be there for me.  To show me that I had worth to them, regardless of how broken I may be.  This stems back to my FOO.  What was it about your ex that drew you in initially?

Love and light x   

[tiki]

It must be something in the way our brains are wired. It must be very chemical. It’s really the only explanation for why we all struggle with that same thing.

[valet]

The older than I get the more I realize that during that time in my life I was just a kid that hadn't had any real long-term relationships before. It felt special and I wanted it to last. It didn't matter who I was with or how they behaved, because I loved the idea of being 'together', of having a person that 'I was close to', regardless of the reality of the situation.

The relationship was selfish on both ends. It often is for many of us with unrealistic expectations and ideas about healthy relationships.

We're agonizing over having incorrect or incompatible concepts of what it means to be in a fulfilling and stable partnership. It is not so much about the pwBPD. It's about us making choices, understanding concepts of sustainability, and living our values in such a way that we lead ourselves to water instead of stranding ourselves in the desert.

[Skip]

Why do grown men waste their time and money on golfing only to be frustrated by it. Its expensive, its outrageously time consuming, there is no exercise in it, it wears on the marriage... .

If I said this to a golfer, he would only say that I don't know anything about golfing (I golf, btw).

Why did/do we expend so much of our life energy, time, focus, brain space, hopes, dreams, fantasies on these people once we realize they have nothing but ill will toward us?

This is a similar type of question. And there is no universal answer that is going to pop up in a thread. What brought each of us here is a question that will take a lot of self reflection and time (possibly working here) to wrap our hands around. It's why we have this board.

When we do, our life will change.

I suspect that we get so hung up on them because they strike a deep chord within us.  In other words, there is something familiar about the dynamic of a BPD r/s that draws us in, on a subconscious level, which is why some liken a BPD r/s to an addiction. 

This is certainly one common theme. I know from reading your posts that you have dug pretty deep to get to this place.

I wish I knew the answer. I got addicted to this POS and put her on a pedestal even though no one has ever treated me so poorly. Makes no sense at all... .

It makes sense, Duped. You just have to take the time and set your ego aside (I say this for all of us, its not a comment aimed at you) to do the deep dive.

I know a lot f us use the term addiction... .but I'd be careful with taking the analogy too far. And addition is often an escape... .I don't sense from what you have said that your relationship was an escape.

Open your own threads... .do the deep dive. I can tell you for a fact that every member who has done this can spot the other members who have done it just by the way they ask questions... .

Good post. Hope to see the follow-ons.

[once removed]

The relationship was selfish on both ends. It often is for many of us with unrealistic expectations and ideas about healthy relationships.

We're agonizing over having incorrect or incompatible concepts of what it means to be in a fulfilling and stable partnership. It is not so much about the pwBPD. It's about us making choices, understanding concepts of sustainability, and living our values in such a way that we lead ourselves to water instead of stranding ourselves in the desert.

this is a very succinct way of putting it.

i remember being around sixteen years old  and thinking i had it all figured out. what a healthy relationship is, what "real love" is.

the truth is i had no real concept of how relationships evolve, devolve, break down, and unrealistic expectations and/or ignorance about all of them. i had no real sense of compatibility, incompatibility, what i wanted in a partner (apart from how they could or made me feel). a very unrealistic picture of who i was as a partner. little sense of my values, little commitment to most of them, little awareness of the values of others, how where or why they intersected. i had immature coping mechanisms. i didnt know any of this, i couldnt see any of this, or myself, very clearly.

i could give you a multitude of reasons why i stayed, none particularly above another (some basic, "i loved her and believed we were meant to be", many psychological and unique to me, some legit, "she had a lot of qualities i would want in a life mate". yes, i learned that though it can be incredibly hard, its best to know when, why, how, where, to exit a relationship, and to be able to make that difficult choice, but i wouldnt have gotten very far if my only take away was that i should have broken up with her.

what did it say about me? my relationship fit me like a glove. it was the relationship i was ready for, and reflected who i was at the time.

[Pencil sketch]

We are like two magnets being pushed together, it's as much about us, as it is about them.
Through seeing a therapist, my need goes back to my mother, On am playing out my childhood, through this relationship, its all I know, it's a subconscious act, but I have to find resolution, to enable me to find peace

[Harley Quinn]

Pencil Sketch touches on another reason why some of us stay.  It's called Repetition Compulsion.  This is what I believe has been the driver for most of my relationships to date.  Also I guess it would explain why I jetissoned healthy ones... .

Love and light x

[Seenowayout]

Good question Jeffree.  Now that I am so thoroughly detached (thank God), I've been asking myself the same question.  I don't think there is a single answer.  I think for me it was a perfect storm of several things going on --

1.)  unresolved issues with my mom, who now I realize must have been BPD too, or at least certainly exhibited the traits.  As my T say, the behavior was familiar to me and I was drawn to it.
2.)  The chemical high of the pedestal.  After being invisible for so long, it was nice.  And there was also the biochemical rushes of the fights and reconciliations.  Somehow all addictive.
3.)  The fantasy thinking that I was so in control of things  -- that I could even fix another human being.
4.)  Not realizing she was tapping into an inner guilt I have about myself.  Deep down I believed I was a bad person, and everytime she played that card i got deeper into that belief == (gaslighting?)  I deserved her rages
4.)  Genuine love and sympathy (not just empathy) for this poor broken girl.

[salvage]

because in the beginning it was amazing... .its kinda that simple... .and nothing else compares...

[Patusito]

Dear Jefree

That’s a great post and some very good questions imo.
I have or had the same questions and I want to share with you what I discovered for myself.
I realize now that I have been conditioned to cater to women, due to my narcissistic mother, to fulfill every need they have. I have become, imo, very good at it but that has brought me misery. BPD is, what I believe a intelligent hyper feminine woman  who have no empathy development and most definitely uses sex, as her weapon of choice, to her advantage to fill a void that she is desperate to fill. On top of it, she has the ability to profile your emotional history all the way to your mother and she will covertly use it against you in very subtle ways. In other words she can be extremely nurturing, kind, loving, uplifting  in the beginning or if she can recycle you for as many times as possible. She is like a torturing mother to you.
If she was abused sexually, then she is taking revenge on men. I bet my entire savings that sex is the perfect bait against men, ideally for an emotionally crippled woman. She will project your wildest dreams on you which is impossible to resist. Then she will enslave you and play games, mind games, with you to break your frame while she is already seeking out other potential “prey”, even their exes! Once she is done with your destruction she will proceed to the next and so on until, well who knows. Can you imagine what an attractive BPD seductress can do to countless men? You are agonizing over her because she has or had tremendous primal feminine powers over you. My best advice is to meet different women and to try to have fun. You were just really really unlucky. One of the next women you like  is going to be so much sweeter and real. Consider this episode a nightmare that will pass. Just remember one thing:
If it’s too good to be true don’t walk away , run!

[Jeffree]

Problem #1: I've not connected with too many women. Interest is a two-way street, and quite honestly I've pretty much dated most of the ones where there was mutual interest and married two of them. Unfortunately, this has only happened with disordered women.

Problem #2: This makes me wonder if the women who were interested in me and I wasn't interested back with were NOT pwBPD? There is just too small a sample size here for me to know. Plus, if the interest wasn't mutual, then we typically went our separate ways so I didn't get to know them long enough to know what they were really like. I'd guess there was a mix of healthy and disordered types, but nobody obviously awesome who I rejected because they were too good for me.

Problem 3: Getting back to interest and connecting... .there are just so many obstacles and nuances to making a connection that when it does happen, it's hard to stop it in its tracks when a yellow flag or just not a flaming red flag rears its ugly head.

EXAMPLE: A few months into the honeymoon phase with my STBx, we went to a party at one of her neighbors. We were all drinking and having a good time. It was only a few houses down the block, so it was going to be a short stumble back to the homestead type of situation. While at their house STBx and SD13 (at the time) were goofing around having a pillow fight. STBx thought SD hit her too hard with one, then actually punched her in the arm in retaliation and it was getting uncomfortable. SD left and I went to console her. On my way back to the party STBx had left and was on her way back to her place and she got all up in arms talking all kinds of crap at me. This was our first argument. All along, I was like, "What are you talking about? What SD did was harmless and you took it to a whole different level." STBx was off to the races with that comment and went on and on and on about it. Then I put my foot down, saying. "That's great and all, but the next time you strike either SD or SS, it's over. That's not useful or effective, and there are many, many courses of action to take before physicality is involved."

So, should that have been it? In hindsight, perhaps it should have been because, while she never did strike either of the kids again, that was the first chink in armor that never really repaired itself as each chink kept happening. So why'd I stay? In all honesty, I felt that these kids needed an adult figure to safeguard them and raise them to know right from wrong, though I didn't know what a truly horrible person my STBx would become until much later.

Problem #4: I was alone/single for the vast majority of my time prior to Ex 1 and after Ex #1 and before STBx #2. This goes back to the lack of connection with women I had met outside of my two wives. It's not as though I minded being single or by myself, but when I did meet someone I connected with the aloneness made these connection points that much more exciting. So, I tended to hold on to making things work much more than I should.

Problem #5: Dating mythologies such as love conquers all (it actually does not), relationships are hard work (and the work only ever seems to get harder and harder), communication is key (not when only one person is communicating based on reality), treat others as you would have them treat you (and if they don't treat you similarly you are free to leave in short order), etc.

Without realizing it, these mythologies had become part of my own playbook, which was rendered useless against a pwBPD and their abusive behaviors. About all they did was prolong the agony as I tried everything I could think of to been seen for who I actually am and try to get things back to normal.

---------

This is all a really long winded way of saying that all these little problems and my attempts to solve them extended the time I was embroiled in a doomed relationship with my STBx. It's no wonder that the picking up the pieces process is so arduous.

J

[Lucky Jim]

Without realizing it, these mythologies had become part of my own playbook, which was rendered useless against a pwBPD and their abusive behaviors. About all they did was prolong the agony as I tried everything I could think of to been seen for who I actually am and try to get things back to normal.

Hey Jeffree, Right, the conventional wisdom about dating has little application to a BPD r/s, which is a different kettle of fish, so-to-speak.  As you note, those mythologies may in fact work against one and even increase one's suffering, which is why one needs a different playbook for a BPD r/s.  There's no roadmap when it comes to BPD!  Keep up your good work!

LuckyJim

[Harley Quinn]

I'd agree with LJ here.

one needs a different playbook for a BPD r/s.  There's no roadmap when it comes to BPD!

One of my mistakes was trying to apply things that I would normally expect to work in making a r/s successful - in a 'normal' r/s.  When something didn't work, I'd try something else.  Again, confused as to why this didn't change things.  My own determination not to fail, be beaten or give up was what then kept me going.  I'm kind of an achiever by nature.  Whilst this led to great things in my career, it has only ever brought me pain and suffering in disordered relationships.  One of my key learnings from my experience with dBPDex is knowing when to quit.  Getting out sooner from a no win situation is the wiser course of action for me in the future.  For a smart girl I've been pretty stupid in that respect.

Does any of this resonate with you Jeffree?

Love and light x   

[once removed]

Problem #1: I've not connected with too many women.

when I did meet someone I connected with the aloneness made these connection points that much more exciting.

... .

Without realizing it, these mythologies had become part of my own playbook

there are reasons why we connect with whom we do, and why we dont connect with others. there are reasons that for some of us this wasnt our first rodeo, and why things just never seemed to line up with a healthier type.

when we find it, it can change our lives. a lot of it has to do with our beliefs about love and intimacy. youre on the right track.

[Lucky Jim]

One of my key learnings from my experience with dBPDex is knowing when to quit.  Getting out sooner from a no win situation is the wiser course of action for me in the future.

Well said, HQ.  Like you, I'm an over-achiever and tend to think that perseverance and effort will carry the day in most challenges, yet that proved untrue in my marriage to my BPDxW.  I agree that it's best to move on sooner from a No-Win situation, though it took me a long time to see that in my marriage.  My father had a saying, ":)on't pursue a barren policy," which seems particularly apt in the context of BPD.  I value loyalty, yet came to question whether my loyalty was misplaced with a persecutor.

This is all a really long winded way of saying that all these little problems and my attempts to solve them extended the time I was embroiled in a doomed relationship with my STBx. It's no wonder that the picking up the pieces process is so arduous.

Join the Club, Jeffree!  Sure, I extended the duration of my marriage and stayed too long, too.  Others, I can see now, would have run for the hills, yet I stayed in part because I thought that I could crack the BPD Code, which only led to more pain down the line.

LJ