She's broken more dishes than can count. I live away from the home.

[Depression = 72% of members]

First, I'm grateful for this forum. I've lurked for months now and have really appreciated knowing that I'm not the only one in the world going through this. I have wonderful friends and family, but their patience grows thin, and they don't really understand what I'm going through. Some of the posts I've read here mirror my own life, which is strangely comforting. Thanks for that.

I believe my wife (married 10 yrs, together 15 yrs) to be BPD. A number of therapists have suggested it, though, to my knowledge, she has never been officially diagnosed. Where to start? In the past two years, she has: broken more dishes than I can count; broken flower pots; broken our ceramic-top range with a chair; beat our refrigerator with a hammer; destroyed the countertops with a hammer; broken a glass coffee table with a metal yard stick; thrown our christmas tree over a balcony onto my truck; put her hands on my throat; threatened to call the police on me and "ruin my life"; cried and screamed the most guttural screams almost every night; threatened to kill herself too many times to count; and attempted suicide at least once. It is all my fault, of course. There is always something I did to cause it, or something I could do to make it stop, though I have never managed to do the right thing, or haven't done it for very long.

I haven't actually lived at home for over two years, which is when she asked (yelled at) me to leave. (She claims to this day that she only wanted me to go for the night, yet 2+ years later, here I am.) I slept in my office for six months, then lived on a friend's sofa for a little over a year, and have been back at my office since then, with periodic days, sometimes weeks, back at home. In that time, I don't think there has been a day without contact. Most of my nights have been spent on email or texting with her, usually trying to mitigate a meltdown, often ending with me being yelled at that "I'm just on a screen," and that I've betrayed and abandoned her. When I'm there, I'm yelled at to leave. I'm exhausted and frustrated. We've seen a number of therapists together and we've each seen therapists separately. She always finds something wrong with the therapists and stops going. I have a therapist currently who I think is helping me figure out how I can do things differently and stop the "dance."

So I'm trying to control what I can control, which is me and my reactions. I'm trying to listen and be empathetic, but also trying to not continue playing my part in the groundhog day that is our life. As my therapist warned, it's not easy. It feels uncomfortable. It doesn't feel right. I know my wife is in a tremendous amount of pain. I see that clearly. I want to help. But all evidence points to the fact that I'm not helping. Things aren't getting better. And I don't know how to make it better. I want a life with my wife, but at this point, I mostly just want peace.

I guess that's enough for now. Thanks again for the insights and comfort I've already gotten from this forum.

 

[stolencrumbs]

First, I'm grateful for this forum. I've lurked for months now and have really appreciated knowing that I'm not the only one in the world going through this. I have wonderful friends and family, but their patience grows thin, and they don't really understand what I'm going through. Some of the posts I've read here mirror my own life, which is strangely comforting. Thanks for that.

I believe my wife (married 10 yrs, together 15 yrs) to be BPD. A number of therapists have suggested it, though, to my knowledge, she has never been officially diagnosed. Where to start? In the past two years, she has: broken more dishes than I can count; broken flower pots; broken our ceramic-top range with a chair; beat our refrigerator with a hammer; destroyed the countertops with a hammer; broken a glass coffee table with a metal yard stick; thrown our christmas tree over a balcony onto my truck; put her hands on my throat; threatened to call the police on me and "ruin my life"; cried and screamed the most guttural screams almost every night; threatened to kill herself too many times to count; and attempted suicide at least once. It is all my fault, of course. There is always something I did to cause it, or something I could do to make it stop, though I have never managed to do the right thing, or haven't done it for very long.

I haven't actually lived at home for over two years, which is when she asked (yelled at) me to leave. (She claims to this day that she only wanted me to go for the night, yet 2+ years later, here I am.) I slept in my office for six months, then lived on a friend's sofa for a little over a year, and have been back at my office since then, with periodic days, sometimes weeks, back at home. In that time, I don't think there has been a day without contact. Most of my nights have been spent on email or texting with her, usually trying to mitigate a meltdown, often ending with me being yelled at that "I'm just on a screen," and that I've betrayed and abandoned her. When I'm there, I'm yelled at to leave. I'm exhausted and frustrated. We've seen a number of therapists together and we've each seen therapists separately. She always finds something wrong with the therapists and stops going. I have a therapist currently who I think is helping me figure out how I can do things differently and stop the "dance."

So I'm trying to control what I can control, which is me and my reactions. I'm trying to listen and be empathetic, but also trying to not continue playing my part in the groundhog day that is our life. As my therapist warned, it's not easy. It feels uncomfortable. It doesn't feel right. I know my wife is in a tremendous amount of pain. I see that clearly. I want to help. But all evidence points to the fact that I'm not helping. Things aren't getting better. And I don't know how to make it better. I want a life with my wife, but at this point, I mostly just want peace.

I guess that's enough for now. Thanks again for the insights and comfort I've already gotten from this forum.

 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

Welcome to bpdfamily.  I am sorry for the pain you are in, but am glad you have found us.  As you may realize from spending time on the boards, the level of physical damage to property that your wife is doing is unusually high.  It must be horrible to witness, especially knowing how much pain she is in.  And though you didn't mention it, we have an idea of how much pain you are in.  I am sure you are getting a tiny fraction of what you were hoping to get out of your relationship, and have been on "giving" overdrive for a very long time.  This pace is not sustainable for you.  I'm glad you have the support of a therapist.

I lurked for a while, but it wasn't until I started actively participating on the boards that I finally realized the power of this place.  Please, please, make this a regular part of your support system.

This is the part where I'd normally start talking about tools, but since you've been reading here and are in therapy, can you give us some details about how you initially reacted to your wife, and how you've changed your approach?  What changes have you found help in your situation?

WW

[pearlsw]

Hi stolencrumbs,

Even though I am on the boards each day, I must say your story is extremely painful! Oh my!

I am so sorry for what you have endured. 

Is she still doing this level of physical damage to things? Does anything slow her down? Is your therapist working to find a way to get you back into the house at some point?

Does she ever have white phases where she expresses love or a desire to have you back home?

with deep compassion, pearl.

[stolencrumbs]

Hi stolencrumbs,

Even though I am on the boards each day, I must say your story is extremely painful! Oh my!

I am so sorry for what you have endured. 

Is she still doing this level of physical damage to things? Does anything slow her down? Is your therapist working to find a way to get you back into the house at some point?

Does she ever have white phases where she expresses love or a desire to have you back home?

with deep compassion, pearl.

Thanks pearl. Even emoji hugs are nice! Who knew?

Most of the damage now is to the walls of the house. I can't count the number of drywall holes and dents I've patched in the last few months. She also seems to be hurting herself more, mainly by hitting herself. Her arms and legs are black and blue from hitting herself repeatedly. Nothing really seems to slow her down. It just has to sort of run its course. The really explosive episodes tend to last about five hours, after which she goes to bed and says nothing about any of it. 

At this point, we're not really trying to get me back home. I don't really feel safe or comfortable at home. The current goal is to take some steps toward finding my own place to live. I've inquired and looked at some places, but haven't actually gotten a place. For whatever reason, it's not something I'm ready to do right now. I think any longer term plan that involves me being back at home will have to include her seeking help. 

She does sometimes express love and wants me back home. That usually lasts a day or two, sometimes a week, then I'm back to black. Those times are increasingly rare. In the beginning of all of this, I had hope every time I was back home that things would be different. I don't really have that hope when I'm home anymore, and I'm sure she can tell. I don't trust any of it and I'm basically just there waiting for the other shoe to drop.   

[pearlsw]

I don't really have that hope when I'm home anymore, and I'm sure she can tell. I don't trust any of it and I'm basically just there waiting for the other shoe to drop.   

Hey stolencrumbs,

Oh sure! Here's some extra ones for the road:   

I haven't endured nearly what you have and I feel just like what you wrote above.

Has there been talk of divorce from either of you? Are there reasons to keep that piece intact or not? Are you undecided or leaning one way or another? We won't push you either way, it's just good to get a picture of things. 

Has she expressed any interest in seeking help or is she blaming all on you? I think you are very right about it not being safe for you to be at home! i am so sorry!

wishing you peace, pearl.

[stolencrumbs]

Welcome to bpdfamily.  I am sorry for the pain you are in, but am glad you have found us.  As you may realize from spending time on the boards, the level of physical damage to property that your wife is doing is unusually high.  It must be horrible to witness, especially knowing how much pain she is in.  And though you didn't mention it, we have an idea of how much pain you are in.  I am sure you are getting a tiny fraction of what you were hoping to get out of your relationship, and have been on "giving" overdrive for a very long time.  This pace is not sustainable for you.  I'm glad you have the support of a therapist.

I lurked for a while, but it wasn't until I started actively participating on the boards that I finally realized the power of this place.  Please, please, make this a regular part of your support system.

This is the part where I'd normally start talking about tools, but since you've been reading here and are in therapy, can you give us some details about how you initially reacted to your wife, and how you've changed your approach?  What changes have you found help in your situation?

WW

Thanks WW. I definitely feel like I'm in giving overdrive, and my engine is starting to burn up.

It's hard to know how to define "initially." In hindsight, I see clear signs of things being amiss from way far back in our relationship. Until the past few years, the anger, splitting, volatility, etc. was mainly directed at other people. I was pretty good at handling that with SET. It was one of the reasons we thought we were a pretty good match. I was a good listener, I was supportive, and pretty good at calming her. We moved about four years ago and that is when it all shifted to me. I'm much less good at handling that. Early on, I think my main approach was to push for therapy. We did go a few times, and she was on medication for a while. When that didn't make everything better, she decided it wasn't helping at all. Then any time I mentioned it, I was just blaming her and making excuses and not taking her seriously. At some point, I quit mentioning that and tried my best to do the things she said needed to be done in order for her to feel better. But that list doesn't end, and the thing I'm supposed to do now to make things better is to quit my job and move somewhere else with her, and I'm not willing to do that right now.

More recently, I've tried to focus on me. I've basically been tied to my phone 24/7 for 2+ years. I'm trying to stop that. I'm trying to plan and schedule things I actually want to do (after I figure out what those things are, since it's been a long time since I've thought about myself), and let her know when I am available. Then I'm trying hard to actually do those things and take time away from being "on call." I'm trying to stick to a particular bed time and not spend nights being up with her all night. I'm trying to see my family more. Basically, I'm trying to make decisions about what I want to do and how I want to live, and then actually do those things without begging for her permission or giving her emotions veto power over everything. I'm pretty good at saying I'm going to set boundaries, but I'm not very good at enforcing them. Therapy is helping with that. My therapist holds me accountable and has encouraged me to use my support system to hold me accountable, since I've proven to not be able to reliably do these things on my own.

I struggle with not feeling like a jerk when I do things I want to do. I'm getting better at it, though I often seek reassurance from others that I'm not being unreasonable or selfish.  

[stolencrumbs]

Hey stolencrumbs,

Oh sure! Here's some extra ones for the road:   

I haven't endured nearly what you have and I feel just like what you wrote above.

Has there been talk of divorce from either of you? Are there reasons to keep that piece intact or not? Are you undecided or leaning one way or another? We won't push you either way, it's just good to get a picture of things. 

Has she expressed any interest in seeking help or is she blaming all on you? I think you are very right about it not being safe for you to be at home! i am so sorry!

wishing you peace, pearl.

I wouldn't say there has been any serious talk about divorce. She threatens it a lot. She packs suitcases and threatens to just leave. Then she says she has no one and no place to go and is trapped with me. Then I'm a monster for causing her so much pain. Wash, rinse, repeat. A real conversation about divorce and what that looks like and how we manage that doesn't seem to be possible.

I don't know if there are reasons to stay in the marriage or not. We do not have any children. I suppose I'm undecided, at least in part because I don't feel like I know what I want. I know I don't want this life, but there is some life with my wife that I do want, though it's increasingly hard to imagine that life actually coming to be. I guess at this point I'm just trying to find space to think and to figure out what my goal is. If she had an enduring wish to get a divorce and I believed she would be okay, I'd be fine with that. It's not what I want, except insofar as I want her to be happy, but I'm not scratching and clawing to keep our marriage intact.

Mostly she blames me. She occasionally says "we need help," but there isn't any follow through on that. I've made appointments with various therapists. She has been a no-show to one, vetoed one before we went because the therapist was too young to be of any help, and quit another after one visit because he was "attacking" her. If the perfect therapist fell into the house like manna from heaven, she might be open to it, but the actual process of finding and maintaining a relationship with a therapist seems to be more than she can do. 

[Radcliff]

You're on the right track!

Good work taking your life back!  It's not easy to strike that balance between being there for her but also being there for yourself.  But unless you do that, it's simply unsustainable.  Maintaining boundaries in the real world can be tough.  What's the biggest boundary issue you're working on improving now?

WW

[Lady Itone]

stolencrumbs

What an interesting name!

My exgfBPD also smashed up my house, and she self-harmed to the point where her whole body was purple bruises. Because of her constant episodes, I was rarely given time to live life outside of crisis mode.

I like that you're starting to attend to your own life, see your family, etc. I found that the more space I took for myself, the more I worked on my own happiness, the more patience and compassion I was able to offer exgf. One of the first things I did for myself was limit how reachable I was via phone. Otherwise, she was constantly trying to get my attention, stressing me out at work or when I was out trying to enjoy my friends.   

Sounds to me like your on the right track. It's hard to know what you want (stay or go) when you don't have any energy or time to be with your own thoughts and feelings because of constant BPD drama. Now that you're starting to carve out your own headspace, I think the answers will become clear. You'll be more able to focus on what you want for your life, and what you need to do to get there.

[Skip]

I haven't actually lived at home for over two years, which is when she asked (yelled at) me to leave. (She claims to this day that she only wanted me to go for the night, yet 2+ years later, here I am.) I slept in my office for six months, then lived on a friend's sofa for a little over a year, and have been back at my office since then, with periodic days, sometimes weeks, back at home. In that time, I don't think there has been a day without contact. Most of my nights have been spent on email or texting with her, usually trying to mitigate a meltdown, often ending with me being yelled at that "I'm just on a screen," and that I've betrayed and abandoned her.

Hey stolencrumbs,

Checking in to see how things have progressed in the last 8 weeks.

What has progress? Digressed? Stayed the same?

When was the last time there was a physical event - a thrown Christmas tree, property broken, hands on you?

Skip

[stolencrumbs]

Hey stolencrumbs,

Checking in to see how things have progressed in the last 8 weeks.

What has progress? Digressed? Stayed the same?

When was the last time there was a physical event - a thrown Christmas tree, property broken, hands on you?

Skip

Thanks Skip. It's hard to measure. Overall, still very much a roller coaster. No Christmas trees have been harmed, though! No physical violence in the last two months. An antique secretary desk that was my great-grandmother's got destroyed, though I'm not sure how. I wasn't there. She says it was an accident, though admits she was raging, but says she was just trying to move it. I don't know. Preparing to move seems to be the new thing she does. Packing everything up. Books, pictures, and paintings have gone in and out of boxes a half dozen or so times in the last few months. When they're in boxes, she yells at me that the house is chaos. I'm occasionally able to appreciate the absurdity of that.

I feel like I'm doing better, in the sense that I have improved on not adding fuel to the fire. Trying to not JADE. Also setting boundaries. I spend much less time in endless email and text conversations. I leave the first time she tells me to leave. If she tells me she doesn't want to see me on a particular day, I make other plans and keep them. I don't do this perfectly, but I'm better than I was. So I think that's progress.

The perhaps expected downside of that progress has been her reaction to it. Divorce threats skyrocketed, and those quickly moved to suicide threats. I talked a bit about this in another thread, but the upshot is that I am not very good at keeping boundaries in the face of her suicide threats. So I've caved on some things, and that made her a bit more stable for a few weeks. Of course, that doesn't last, so I'm currently away from the house getting bombarded with texts. They're just divorce threats, now. Hopefully they don't escalate tonight.

She's started seeing a T, so I'm hopeful about that. I'm continuing T, and we're seeing her T together periodically. I've signed a release and my T has been talking with hers. I think this setup has promise. I also continue to get insight from these boards. Very grateful that they exist and that I found them. 

[Radcliff]

I feel like I'm doing better, in the sense that I have improved on not adding fuel to the fire. Trying to not JADE. Also setting boundaries. I spend much less time in endless email and text conversations. I leave the first time she tells me to leave. If she tells me she doesn't want to see me on a particular day, I make other plans and keep them. I don't do this perfectly, but I'm better than I was. So I think that's progress.

This is indeed progress!

She's started seeing a T, so I'm hopeful about that. I'm continuing T, and we're seeing her T together periodically. I've signed a release and my T has been talking with hers. I think this setup has promise. I also continue to get insight from these boards. Very grateful that they exist and that I found them. 

Excellent.  When the T's talk and compare notes, it can be helpful.

You've talked about what you're learning not to do, like JADE.  Back when I was first learning the tools, that was the first change I implemented, and got very good payback in conflict reduction.  What about the things that you want to do more of, like validation?  To learn more about validation, take a look at this excellent page on how to validate and avoid being invalidating.  This was also an early tool I added to my toolkit, for which I got very good payback.

WW

[Maximum44]

Stolen Crumbs,

I just want to say that I'm with you here.  My uBPDgf has raged where she has destroyed a couple brooms, beating them on the bathroom vanity top to the point of some chips.

Also, she does the packing stuff and saying she has to move.  But even more so, she will go through purges where she just wants to get rid of things and start over accumulating.

[stolencrumbs]

Well, add some more dishes to the total. A bowl and a couple of plates tonight. Broken on the newly regrouted tile floors and newly painted kitchen cabinets, which we had to have because she destroyed the old kitchen.

What seemed to set her off tonight was that, according to her, nothing bothers me. She's said this before, but this is the first time it has been the central theme of a rage.

[Radcliff]

Well, add some more dishes to the total. A bowl and a couple of plates tonight. Broken on the newly regrouted tile floors and newly painted kitchen cabinets, which we had to have because she destroyed the old kitchen.

What seemed to set her off tonight was that, according to her, nothing bothers me. She's said this before, but this is the first time it has been the central theme of a rage.

Oy, I'm sorry to hear this.  Can you give us more detail on how this went down?  Did you go to your home after work?  Where are you sleeping these days?  How did things go from your arrival to when she was breaking dishes?  How did you respond when she broke the dishes?

RC

[Coastered]

Just here to say how sorry I am that you find yourself in this situation.  I can relate to a lot of what you are going through.  I have nothing more to offer than what has already been said but I really am rooting for you.

Hang in there

[stolencrumbs]

Oy, I'm sorry to hear this.  Can you give us more detail on how this went down?  Did you go to your home after work?  Where are you sleeping these days?  How did things go from your arrival to when she was breaking dishes?  How did you respond when she broke the dishes?

WW

I'm sleeping at home more, but still sleeping in my office, too. Probably at about 50/50 now. It pretty much depends on her mood. Yesterday, I took off the first half of the day to help her with getting our dogs to the groomer. The plan was for me to come home after work and continue working on a project we started last weekend (painting the trim in the house.) So I came home and started working on that. She was obviously in a bad mood already. I worked on the trim for a couple of hours. At some point I asked if she was hungry. She said she didn't want food, so I made myself something. She informed me that she was going for a walk. She then sat in her car and screamed for about 30 minutes, then went for a walk. I continued to work on trim. When she came back she asked if I was done with what I was going to do. I was. She asked me to leave, so I got some clothes and started to leave. Before I got to the door, she started yelling. I came back into the kitchen with her. The flavor of what she said is below, which is from emails she sent just after I left. She started grabbing dishes and throwing them on the floor just after she yelled at me about how it doesn't bother me. After two or three dishes, she went into the other room and started crying/sobbing/screaming. I cleaned up the broken dishes. She calmed down a little bit and told me I should leave. So I left. I attempted to acknowledge the "chaos" and how hard it is for her to live in it. She told me that was a lie. That i didn't get it, and that I didn't give a F about her. I don't think I said anything else.   

i can't do this anymore. i cannot live like this. i am sick of it. there is no kitchen (ed. note: there is a kitchen, it just doesn't have counters because she hasn't ordered counters in the three months the kitchen has been ready for them). there are weeds and piles of debris everywhere (ed. note: our garden was on the city's garden tour. it is not a mess). it is barbaric. I get that it doesn't bother you. You just go to your office and watch your sports or go to the bar. Everything's just fine for you. i hate it. i hate it. i am so exhausted. i am so exhausted. i hope i never wake up. i need this house and yard to be orderly and put together. i can't do this. please god. please. please. i cannot do this. do you want to see me crack?

[Skip]

Obviously, this is absolutely insane for you... .

At the same time, this note suggests a person in emotional overload and in trouble.

i can't do this anymore. i cannot live like this. i am sick of it. there is no kitchen (ed. note: there is a kitchen, it just doesn't have counters because she hasn't ordered counters in the three months the kitchen has been ready for them). there are weeds and piles of debris everywhere (ed. note: our garden was on the city's garden tour. it is not a mess). it is barbaric. I get that it doesn't bother you. You just go to your office and watch your sports or go to the bar. Everything's just fine for you. i hate it. i hate it. i am so exhausted. i am so exhausted. i hope i never wake up. i need this house and yard to be orderly and put together. i can't do this. please god. please. please. i cannot do this. do you want to see me crack?

Leaving was a good idea (very good idea) in the beginning, but at 1+ years, it most likely is just contributing to the problem. It's probably time to try something else (rather than being a part time occupant).

What?

I don't know. We should all talk about it.   everyone!

Some thoughts. I think you need to talk to her in a time of calm and listen to her, share her emotional concern (in words and emotions) - things are untenable - agghh! - and talk about some solutions.  Make a plan to fix the missing kitchen. Make a plan to fix the wasteland in your back yard. Make a plan to on what to do when she is in emotional distress (  ).

Here is a video from a person with serious anger and coping disabilities. It probably seems immature, but this very likely is where your wife is... .and this is a way to cope with it.

Date: Sep 10, 2017Minutes: 6:52
Fuck Anger Management | Shari Schreiber

Note the opening line - it says a lot about how she sees it.

Maybe you need a safe emotional release place in your house... .maybe a garage, a TV, a cot, and a frustration dummy to beat the crap out of. Hug her when seem comes back in.



"I kill you... .hiiiiii yaaaa... .uph"

I'm being extreme. Maybe running and going to garage until cooled off... .

I dated a women for a short time with door slamming, dish breaking disease. We found an alternative... .interestingly, it slowed down in time as she had no audience... .but it was there and having it as a place to go helped.

My point is, her emotional excess sounds real... .she needs an alternative way to vent it.

[stolencrumbs]

Obviously, this is absolutely insane for you... .

At the same time, this note suggests a person in emotional overload and in trouble.

Leaving was a good idea (very good idea) in the beginning, but at 1+ years, it most likely is just contributing to the problem. It's probably time to try something else (rather than being a part time occupant).

What?

I don't know. We should all talk about it.   everyone!

Some thoughts. I think you need to talk to her in a time of calm and listen to her, share her emotional concern (in words and emotions) - things are untenable - agghh! - and talk about some solutions.  Make a plan to fix the missing kitchen. Make a plan to fix the wasteland in your back yard. Make a plan to on what to do when she is in emotional distress (  ).

My point is, her emotional excess sounds real... .she needs an alternative way to vent it.

Yes, her emotional overload is real, and she is definitely in trouble. I don't think there's a bit of performance in what she does. Her pain is very, very real. The million dollar question is what to do, and I second the call for help.

When she is calm, we do make plans to address things that bother her. We've had many, many plans to finish the kitchen. We make a start, then she gets upset or overwhelmed, and stops letting me work on things. Then we're not following the plan, and she gets more overwhelmed and feels more hopeless, and we get further behind until we make a new plan. Wash, rinse, repeat. I'm sure there are things I could do better, but I feel like a bend over backwards to validate her and acknowledge the chaos and the toll that takes on her. We have plans to deal with the garden as well. (And seriously, it is beautiful. My wife is an amazing gardener. I guarantee no one would walk in our backyard and think it is a wasteland. But there are things that bother her, and in her mind it's not "right," and I do try to acknowledge that.) So we make plans, but the plans are only good so long as she is not having a meltdown. Once she is, those plans go nowhere.

So I think the biggest help would be to have a plan for what to do when she is in emotional distress. I have been asking that for years and trying to get her to talk to me about a plan. All I ever seem to get are things I should do to prevent her from feeling that way. I've stayed. I've tried talking. I've tried just being there. I've tried holding her. I've offered to get a treadmill or a punching bag. I've downloaded "Sweatin to the Oldies" and tried to get her do that with me, because who can possibly be upset while doing 80s era workouts with Richard Simmons? Answer: my wife. This is all to say that I don't know what to do or how to do it, and at this point, her go to response is to yell at me to leave.

She is now in therapy, so maybe the T will have some ideas for self-soothing that she'll try. Or maybe in a session together we can actually talk about and make a plan for handling these episodes. As it is, I feel like I'm throwing darts blindfolded.

[Skip]

So I think the biggest help would be to have a plan for what to do when she is in emotional distress. I have been asking that for years and trying to get her to talk to me about a plan. All I ever seem to get are things I should do... .// ... .

I've stayed.
I've tried talking.
I've tried just being there.
I've tried holding her.
I've offered to get a treadmill or a punching bag.
I've downloaded "Sweatin to the Oldies"

First of all, I would throw a Christmas tree at you for cuing up anything with Richard Simmons on it. 

I don't doubt that you tried all these things. Do you think that this is possibly a different time (in her mind), that there are different ways to try, and that trying things that might work is better than staying the course if the course is not working.

You could give up - and at some point we all should. You could stay the course and what for a possible therapy answer - get it space. Or you could keep trying things until you hit the target.

Are you thinking "stay the course" and "give it space"?

[stolencrumbs]

First of all, I would throw a Christmas tree at you for cuing up anything with Richard Simmons on it. 

I don't doubt that you tried all these things. Do you think that this is possibly a different time (in her mind), that there are different ways to try, and that trying things that might work is better than staying the course if the course is not working.

You could give up - and at some point we all should. You could stay the course and what for a possible therapy answer - get it space. Or you could keep trying things until you hit the target.

Are you thinking "stay the course" and "give it space"?

And that would be worthy of throwing a Christmas tree!

I guess at the moment I am staying the course when it comes to the meltdowns. My patience with it has grown much thinner, and so I'm less able to endure it and try new things. I'm pretty good at not getting upset. But when she asks me to leave, I leave. I don't have the energy to fight to stay when she is out of control. 

I am open to doing things differently and trying new things. I don't have great ideas for what those things are, especially when it is almost certainly going to have to be something that I can do on my own, without her cooperation. And I recognize my own limits at the moment, and that whatever I do I need to be able to do it consistently, and that can mean dealing with the meltdowns three to five times a week.

I don't actually know how she thinks about it. I can look back at emails and texts, and she is saying pretty much the same things. But I don't know if, in her mind, things are different now than they were in the past, or if trying something now might work, even if it didn't work in the past.

[Skip]

I guess at the moment I am staying the course when it comes to the meltdowns. My patience with it has grown much thinner, and so I'm less able to endure it and try new things. I'm pretty good at not getting upset. But when she asks me to leave, I leave. I don't have the energy to fight to stay when she is out of control. 

I understand the learned helplessness. 

Step back for a minute though.

When she is freaking out, why are you rewarding that by giving her the ability to put you out of the house? Punish you.

We initially encourage leaving to give the pwBPD space to realize that they are being unreasonable.  But if you normalize that over a year or two, you have created another problem bigger than the problem you were trying to solve.

When I feel upset, I can get some relief by making my husband feel uncomfortable.

Shouldn't it be that when she throws dishes, she leaves?  You can end this by video taping the next tirade and then calling the police. Shift this thing in a more equitable place.

If she packs up a bunch of boxes - call a mover in to move them out.

See my point?

I'm not suggesting you do either as a first step, but I am suggesting the you pivot and slowing tighten the noose in a way that she has consequences for bad behavior and not rewards.

I know that you are worn out by all of this and probably don't want to invest energy in the emotional fortitude needed to shift this paradigm, but the longer you let it go one, the worse it is going to be.

[stolencrumbs]

I understand the learned helplessness. 

Step back for a minute though.

When she is freaking out, why are you rewarding that by giving her the ability to put you out of the house? Punish you.

We initially encourage leaving to give the pwBPD space to realize that they are being unreasonable.  But if you normalize that over a year or two, you have created another problem bigger than the problem you were trying to solve.

When I feel upset, I can get some relief by making my husband feel uncomfortable.

Shouldn't it be that when she throws dishes, she leaves?  You can end this by video taping the next tirade and then calling the police. Shift this thing in a more equitable place.

If she packs up a bunch of boxes - call a mover in to move them out.

See my point?

I'm not suggesting you do either as a first step, but I am suggesting the you pivot and slowing tighten the noose in a way that she has consequences for bad behavior and not rewards.

I know that you are worn out by all of this and probably don't want to invest energy in the emotional fortitude needed to shift this paradigm, but the longer you let it go one, the worse it is going to be.

I do see the point, and I appreciate the perspective. It's definitely true that not being at home regularly for more than two years has created a whole new problem. I wish I had handled things differently when it all first happened.

It sometimes feels like all roads eventually lead to getting the police involved, and that is something I am very reluctant to do. In the past, she has left. She then drives around and calls me and texts me with suicide threats. I'm pretty sure that is what would happen if I refused to leave.

I do think there is an aspect of punishment to it, and part of what upsets her now is that I'm not that upset about not being there. I'm not thriving by any means, but I get along all right. I guess the thing I think about doing is finding my own place to live. That would impose a financial consequence on me not being at home, and it would also further eliminate the punitive aspect of telling me to leave.

I hear myself make all kinds of excuses for why I can't do x or y, and I recognize that they are just that--excuses. I do appreciate the gentle push back on the learned helplessness. There are things I can do. I need to figure out which things I can really commit to doing, and then get to doing.

[Skip]

part of what upsets her now is that I'm not that upset about not being there. I'm not thriving by any means, but I get along all right.

If you broke down, laid on the floor and cried - she would feel some relief and comfort. Some of her internal pain would transfer to you and would help dissipate it.

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THIS.

I am suggesting that you try to understand these dynamics.

She feels out of control. Everything feels bad. Everything seems messed up (yu have surely been down abd felt this) - she screams out, the yard is a mess!

What do you do. You say, the yard is OK, its just a few weeds.
What does she (or anyone in her place) hear? Invalid! You're an emotional idiot

If you looked out the window and said, those weeds look awful. The garden looked so good a month ago. That suks. (no offer to fix, just some negative emotion about it)... .she would probably calm down a bit.

She is in pain and is looking for some support of it.

This is complex and you may have not patience or heart for this... .but this is the likely what is happening in her world and the key to it.

[stolencrumbs]

If you broke down, laid on the floor and cried - she would feel some relief and comfort. Some of her internal pain would transfer to you and would help dissipate it.

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THIS.

I am suggesting that you try to understand these dynamics.

She feels out of control. Everything feels bad. Everything seems messed up (yu have surely been down abd felt this) - she screams out, the yard is a mess!

What do you do. You say, the yard is OK, its just a few weeds.
What does she (or anyone in her place) hear? Invalid! You're an emotional idiot

If you looked out the window and said, those weeds look awful. The garden looked so good a month ago. That suks. (no offer to fix, just some negative emotion about it)... .she would probably calm down a bit.

She is in pain and is looking for some support of it.

This is complex and you may have not patience or heart for this... .but this is the likely what is happening in her world and the key to it.

Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. I don’t think I invalidate in that way. I certainly don’t tell her that things really aren’t that bad. I did that years ago, but have not done that in a long time. But I could do more to validate how she feels.

The not offering to fix is challenging. It is often what she asks for or demands “How are you going to make it right?” I hear that a lot.

[babyducks]

Hi Stolencrumbs,

I have been  following along with your posts and wanted to stop in and say how great it is that you are willing to talk this out with us.    Looking at the situation from other perspectives,   being open to new ideas, being willing to self disclose,  being willing to identify feelings, those are big steps forward, those are steps towards making changes.      

 

The not offering to fix is challenging. It is often what she asks for or demands “How are you going to make it right?” I hear that a lot.

Yup.   It is challenging.    No doubt about it.    my person with BPD once said to me "it's not enough for you to say you understand how I feel,  you need to do something about it".     and to her that was very reasonable.     For her,  she believed I needed to be responsible for her emotions, and when I couldn't do that, she became more upset.     sometimes it felt like a horrible catch 22.

 She asked me to leave, so I got some clothes and started to leave. Before I got to the door, she started yelling. I came back into the kitchen with her. The flavor of what she said is below, which is from emails she sent just after I left. She started grabbing dishes and throwing them on the floor just after she yelled at me about how it doesn't bother me. After two or three dishes, she went into the other room and started crying/sobbing/screaming. I cleaned up the broken dishes.

I'm sorry you both went through that.     it sounds very difficult.     it sounds very upsetting.    it had to be a hard moment.

when I was new to this site, I was told a couple of times that "what we can understand we can change".    looking back I think that members were telling me to work to understand the dynamics in my relationship.    the "dynamics" were pretty confusing.     and almost never what I thought they were.    they were nothing I had ever experienced before or had any knowledge of.

I am curious about something,  in the situation you described above.    she told you to leave.    you got some clothes and started to leave.   but she started to yell.    you came back into the kitchen.   then she grabbed some dishes and threw them on the floor.   What do you think might have happened, if instead of coming back into the kitchen you continued on your plan and left with your clothes?

these are very difficult situations, in the moment it's hard to think clearly, often time it feels like there is no 'right' answer.    talking it out,   talking the way through it,   looking outside of the box for new approaches is helpful.

After two or three dishes, she went into the other room and started crying/sobbing/screaming. I cleaned up the broken dishes.

Ouch.    Wow.      From my experience I believe it is possible to become habiutalized to violence.   and not see it anymore.    It becomes the normal.    She breaks the dishes, and you clean them up.    I totally get why you would do that.  

 

Shouldn't it be that when she throws dishes, she leaves?  You can end this by video taping the next tirade and then calling the police. Shift this thing in a more equitable place.

Shouldn't it be that when she throws dishes she cleans them up?    Shouldn't there be consquences for behavior?   I know I am playing devils advocate but if some one is driving around calling and texting with suicide threats is it reasonable to call the police and ask for a wellness check?  

thanks for being here and sharing.  

'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks 'ducks. My wife says almost the exact same thing to me. It's usually "that's great that you understand, now what are you going to do about it?" It took me a while to figure out that she was making me responsible for how she felt, and that that wasn't a responsibility I could or should take on. It still seems perfectly reasonable to her.

It's hard to say what would've happened if I had just left. She almost always yells at me as I'm leaving. Sometimes I keep going, sometimes I come back. Once when I just left she smashed the glass coffee table with a metal yard stick. Sometimes I just leave and it's fine. Sometimes I come back and it's fine. Sometimes it's not. The inconsistency on my part probably isn't good.

It has definitely become kind of surreal. I am certainly desensitized to it. Like, I have to remind myself that it's not normal to walk into your kitchen and discover the refrigerator has been beaten with a hammer. And yeah, I tend to clean it all up. My excuse is that we have dogs, and most of the things she breaks are sharp. I'd prefer our dogs not walk through a room full of broken dishes or broken glass. But that's probably not the whole reason I stick around and clean it all up. I agree that she should be the one doing that.

Yes, lots of her behavior warrants a wellness check. My gut feeling (which I probably shouldn't trust at this point) is that doing that would make things much worse. My state has pretty bad mental health laws. The law only permits a 72 hr, in-patient hold. The state does not permit "outpatient commitment." The psychiatric hospital in our town is almost always full (per my therapist). So she would likely end up in the ER, and then wherever they house people when there is no psych bed available. I'm not optimistic that much good would come from this, and can see quite a bit of bad. I'm prepared to do it if the suicide threats get serious again, but in my mind right now, it is a last resort.

[babyducks]

Hi SC

How are you today?  How are you feeling?

It's hard to say what would've happened if I had just left. She almost always yells at me as I'm leaving. Sometimes I keep going, sometimes I come back. Once when I just left she smashed the glass coffee table with a metal yard stick. Sometimes I just leave and it's fine. Sometimes I come back and it's fine. Sometimes it's not.

I probably wrote that question poorly... .I can see that her reactions would vary greatly, her level of acting out seems very high.    I was actually thinking how is it for you, how would you feel if you kept on walking.    Is it ~easier~ (I know nothing about this is easy) for you to disengage or do you feel FOG'd  (fear, obligation, guilt) to stay?

The inconsistency on my part probably isn't good.

No, it's probably not.     Upstream Skip said this:

I'm not suggesting you do either as a first step, but I am suggesting that you pivot and slowly tighten the noose in a way that she has consequences for bad behavior and not rewards.

I think this is significant.   I don't want to loose this in the conversation.    I think you have started to pivot.   Going to trivia night.    Going to therapy.        coming here and engaging.   all pivot points.

as a thought exercise,   if you were to start a pivot with your wife, how would that look?   if you got the "that's great that you understand, now what are you going to do about it?" and replied with a carefully crafted version of 'I can do X and Y, I think you can help by doing A and B'.   how would that play out?   I suspect with your wife it would launch an extinction burst.   that's to be expected.    how much energy do you have to cope with an extinction burst?     can you be consistent about what ever small pivot point you start with?    I know it is very very hard to do.

And yeah, I tend to clean it all up. My excuse is that we have dogs, and most of the things she breaks are sharp. I'd prefer our dogs not walk through a room full of broken dishes or broken glass.

Dogs are great.    I have two myself.   I do things for the dogs I wouldn't do to take care of myself.
To be honest SC, it concerns me that she is willing to endanger the dogs.    My partner was diagnosed bipolar 1 and BPD.   (we are no longer together)    In the middle of a bipolar 1 mania she could and did become psychotic.    Having a plan... .some here would call it a safety plan... .helped me.   In the moment trying to think through details was just not possible.   figuring things out, with the help of the mental health team, in advance,  with no stress or violence going on, made me more comfortable.   I could say if my partner was psychotic and threatened to drive I would call the police to intervene because she was a danger to herself and others.   when maniac my ex believed that G-d or the wind would drive the car for her, that she didn't need to keep her hands on the steering wheel.    I never actually had to call the police to remove her from a car but I knew I would if I needed to.  I knew where the phone number was.   I knew who I was calling next.   the emergency numbers were in my wallet for the kennel in case I had to remove the dogs.   I called it my 'mad map'.     Can't claim any credit for that,  I got it from the internet.   I never had to use parts of the 'mad map'.   I did use the parts that were designed to create a safe comfortable restful place for me to retreat too.

I would encourage you to think about a safety plan or a crisis plan, which ever you want to call it.   start small.    I'll include this link.   It's written for someone who is aware and participating in their mental health care.  that's not important right now.    it does include almost all of the details and data that's important in the event of a psychotic break.

www.mentalhealthrecovery.com/info-center/crisis-plan/

hope to hear from you again.

'ducks