R/S advice, BPD style

[In_n_Out]

I'm sure that if I searched previous posts here, I'd find something very similar with possible suggestions/solutions/reinforcement but I'm going to just go ahead and start a new thread.  I hope that I'm brief by including only the most needed of details.

Nearly 4 yr r/s with dBPDgf (waif type) that went sour when she began to devalue me and then she just walked one day and I find out that she's seeing somebody else (sound familiar anybody?).  That was last July/August.  We had a semi-recycle around Christmas (not intimate but the "I always loved you, always will love you, you are "home" to me, etc" along with her being "torn" between him and me.  An incident happened at her birthday in January and after I sent an invalidating enough text to send her over the edge, she painted me black and we were NC for 30 days.  Just over a week ago, she reached out to a buddy, shoved a note in his hand and asked that he deliver it to me and so no we've seen each other every night (no intimacy) and we laugh, cry, hold hands, bump foreheads (not "uglies" and all the other gushy stuff and yes, I am eating it up alive.  But now this whole "stuck" pattern is gnawing at me.

Some facts:

1. She's never been married, no kids.  She's 43 and can't hold a job (but she's been at the current one for almost a year now).

2. She's in her own rental home (very nice old towne home that I'm amazed she's kept - no doubt with lots of borrowing and trips to the pawn shop).  However, she wants a house that is her "own" via proxy (i.e., marriage).

3. My replacement has said home (and this will sound so bad) but it's not the perfect home for her.  :)oesn't like this and that and the dog he has sheds all over, etc.  Texts yesterday to me "If we are meant to be, could we have a house with a fence and garden and fireplace?".

4. My situation: I went through financial hell after my divorce many years ago, credit is shot but I do have a VA loan in my back pocket.  I could afford a mortgage (the rent on my townhome that I pay now is probably more than some monthly payments I'd have on a house) but I have zero downpayment right now.  My son (14) lives with me and yes, I'd love to have a house some day. I have begun to look into the VA option and I *think* that she's waiting to see how serious that I am about that.  Do I think that if I had a house of my own at this point that she'd leave him for me?  Yeah, I think that she would.  Does that make for a good r/s?  Part of me says that if she loves me, she would love me for me and would want to be with me no matter what.  The other part says that I can't blame her for wanting to be with a "stable" man.  I am fully employed with a great company, with great benefits, and I am on the comeback trail from my own financial woes.

5. She says that him and her were great during the honeymoon period but now they fight all the time.  She says she hardly sees him and I believe that because the Christmas and this recycle we were together every night and on the weekends except for a couple of hours on Saturdays (their time).  I've done the BPD homework assignments and to her (per her) I'm the one that understands her better than anybody ever has and she very much wants to come back to me but she's "torn" because she would let down so many people that are counting on him and her getting married.

So the obvious thing is to get the hell out of there because this is triangulation pure and simple and I could be in this limbo for a long while (until she makes her "choice" but as we all know, when you're on that pedestal, it's like pure heaven so I'm stuck.

How best to get this thing moving along without triggering her abandonment fears that would get me painted black (as much as that would probably be the best thing for me)?  :)o I believe that she really does love me?  Yes, I do.  I see it in her eyes when she looks me in the eyes and tells me how much she does.  Is she "materialistic"?  Yes and no.  She shops goodwill for her clothes and that makes her happy.  She doesn't care to have a fancy car.  She just wants to be married (finally) and have a house that she can call "home" with a husband.

1. Do I tell her that she needs to conclude that before we can proceed and then I go NC with her?  That will trigger abandonment and will surly get me blackballed.  But that would be telling in and of itself I suppose.  

2. Do I just keep playing the triangulation game and just live for each moment that we have hoping that she wraps things up with him?  Yes, there seems to of been some progress there actually.  She makes it appear that she is "close" to getting to the point to where she begins to paint him black and moves along.  We have talked about her leaving him but she's stuck on the "torn" thing and won't commit either way.

3. Do I just start dating others telling her that I'm here for her but if she's "torn" I'm torn as well and if we are meant to be we will be?  That will get me painted black to, I'm sure (as much as she says that I deserve to be with someone that will make me happy - her own way of invalidating her own worth).

Any other suggestions?  Yes, I know the obvious answer here but let's just pretend that I want this to work out with her in the worst way because I honestly believe that it could if she would just get out of the triangulation.  We had a good r/s when we were together (we were actually engaged).  I just didn't know how to communicate/validate her at the time and had to discover that she has BPD on my own post-breakup.  We get along great now (or have during this latest recycle at least).

Thanks in advance.

[In_n_Out]

So just typing that out made me come to some realizations.  I've been listening to her and she has said several times in the past week that things seem differently with us, that I'm more understanding and validating (I am) but that for some reason she wonders what ulterior motive I may have (she giggles at that).  So since this recycle has only been a week, I think that she's waiting to see if this bubble bursts or not before making any decision to throw away something that she may have with this other guy - as much as I know that she knows he really isn't the one for her.  Yes, I am convinced of that.  Unless she scrubs the house before every visit that I make over there, she has no pictures of him, there's no facebook activity between them all the things that she did with me and that you would expect to see from a "happy" couple.

So I think that my best play right now is to continue to be patient, just be a friend for her while letting her know that I do love her and as much as I do hope that we can find a way to each other she has to find it in her heart what it is she wants and that with time, she may realize that this is the "real" me and that she would/could/will be happy with me.  Then hopefully she pulls the trigger and moves on from the other guy.

I'll give this a few weeks because I too am wondering if she doesn't dysregulate and things do blow up and I wind up losing my cool as I had done before.  I hurt her with some things that were said in the past; they weren't nasty but they were invalidating enough that she was hurt by them and I feel that she feels she needs to be convinced that won't start happening again.  If after a few weeks we are still in limbo, I'll start dating others again and let her know that as much as I love her, I see us as "stuck" and that I can't keep putting my life on hold waiting for her to basically "$hit or get off the pot" as they say.

[maxsterling]

My feeling?  She's manipulating you.  I think she is unhappy with her current r/s, and is playing you as a way out without having to make a decision or feel any pain herself.  If you buy a house and ask her to move in, she doesn't have to be alone.  And once she is there, there will be a honeymoon period, and then likely the "same old, same old" will start again.  She's not working on herself.  And while she may "love" you, love means something different to a pwBPD.  There is a "need" component to their love.  She needs you to rescue her from her own pain, and to provide for her what she cannot provide for herself.

While I am not in a triangulation situation, I see some similarities here between what I am dealing with and what you are dealing with.   My GF has searched for her whole life for a place to be.  She does the same thing - wants marriage, a house, and kids.  But she's unable to get that on her own, so she manipulates.  She uses guilt trips, passive aggression, threats of moving, all for that goal.  And at times, I have been the sucker.   She doesn't know how to get her needs met any other way.  Of course, I asked her to move in before I knew anything about BPD, before the first rage.  For a few weeks, she talked about how happy she was, how she loved my house, that she finally felt at home.  A month later, she was in my living room, screaming at me, telling me if I left she would kill herself and I would come home to find her lifeless body and it would be my fault. 

Be careful.  She thinks marriage and a home will "fix" her.  But once she gets that and feels no better, the cycle starts again, and then good luck getting her out of your house.  How many other things has she done in her life that she thought would "fix" her?   How many new boyfriends, new jobs, new places to live?  Those are all attempts at filling that "hole".  My girlfriend has rarely had a job, boyfriend, or place to live last longer than 6 months.  She's had more jobs and more dating partners in the last 5 years than I have had in my whole life.  I'll state again, be careful.

[In_n_Out]

My feeling?  She's manipulating you.  I think she is unhappy with her current r/s, and is playing you as a way out without having to make a decision or feel any pain herself. 

I absolutely agree.  To her, her *only* options are 1) stay with Mr. X and even though she's not really happy with him now, perhaps she could grow to be happy and she knows that he will be asking her to marry him.  This way, she can walk down the aisle with her ailing father like she has always wanted to and prove once and for all to mommy and daddy that she is "marriage material".  That has been a big hang up of hers for a very long time.  Option 2) is go back to the man that she truly does love (me and I do believe this) and see if a) things have changed or b) if the crap just goes back to where it was before.  She is still in the "wait and see" phase on this.  She's leaning 2 but hasn't quite decided yet (more in a bit).

The third option that she just can't fathom though I've suggested it numerous times is 3) take some time for herself to become self-sustaining and then figure out what she wants.  But we all know BPD's and the abandoment/isolation feelings.  Also, that biological clock is ticking big time.  Daddy is in poor health and though I think she realizes this ship won't sail for her, she is still hoping that she can have a kid (she's 43).  Mr. X is open to the idea of kids, I am not (I have two boys from a previous marriage).

She's not working on herself.

Actually, she is.  I won't say that this is the *only* reason why I'm even entertaining these thoughts but for the first time since 2005, she has returned to therapy and has begun DBT training.  She can lose focus on things (especially when a guy is involved, and that's how/why she dropped out before) but at the moment at least, she is very committed to finally getting a grasp on what she says of herself "I can be a big pain in the a$$".  I am committed to seeing that she sticks with it for as long as I'm in the picture.  No, I can't fix her but I can help keep her motivated to want to get herself fixed by a professional.

So this morning I sent her some texts.  I said that I believe that we both have the same agenda as to "us" and that is that we both want to see if after spending a good deal of time together, platonically, things have truly changed or if the bubble will burst.  (By the way, since I break up, I discovered and confronted her with "BPD" of which I had never heard of before and I have been doing lots of homework on it.  I think I mentioned in the intial post but my validation of her emotions has really done wonders for how we now communicate).  I also said that as much as I love her and am not actively seeking to date others, I am passively keeping those options open (that puts a little pressure on her but isn't an ultimatum). She replied "please don't find somebody else". I replied that "If I was *forced* to find somebody else, that I would only be settling for less than what I want".  Now that is true in the here and now for it is her that I want (right now) but I may find someone and realize that I got more than I ever wanted... . you never know.  She doesn't need to know that though.

We had a number of other very pleasant text exchanges and I had a funny story that really amused her.  She said "I have to see you tonight!  Can we meet at (place)?" and that she loves me, "with all of my heart".

So as I mentioned, I'll keep working on my communication/validation skills with a BPD and as long as she stays committed to DBT's and therapy, I will stay in this "wait and see" period for a little while longer.  I feel her coming around.  If however after a few weeks of this nothing is changing and I'm still the "stand by guy", then I'm walking and I will be sad but content that I gave it my best college try.  She just needs to be certain (in her mind) that things won't go back to where they once were and frankly, I need convincing of that as well.

[In_n_Out]

Be careful.  She thinks marriage and a home will "fix" her.  But once she gets that and feels no better, the cycle starts again, and then good luck getting her out of your house.  How many other things has she done in her life that she thought would "fix" her?   How many new boyfriends, new jobs, new places to live?  Those are all attempts at filling that "hole".  My girlfriend has rarely had a job, boyfriend, or place to live last longer than 6 months.  She's had more jobs and more dating partners in the last 5 years than I have had in my whole life.  I'll state again, be careful.

And that is sage advice because mine too has been through a number of r/s (I was with her for 4 years and she's been with my replacement for 6 months but before me, it was guy after guy) and she's had more jobs than I can count since I've known her.  So what you say is a very good point and if it does come down to her staying with "Mr. X", then that could be a parting shot... . how many changes have you made trying to "fix" you guy and job wise and how has that been working for you?

Also, it appears that by setting my own personal boundaries and letting her know that I have done so and what they are has given me some respect.  I was nervous texting that, not wanting to invalidate anything or give her the fear of abandonment feeling but her text responses have been very positive to that.  My boundaries are that I will not do the silent treatment again that this is a time where I need to spend time with her to determine if this bubble will in fact burst or not; the same thing that she is wondering.  And that I also respect that she is in another r/s at the moment and as much as it tears me up to think that she's spending time with him (very little as it may be) and me as well, that if a dating opportunity comes up for me while we are in this "holding pattern" and I feel that it would be a good fit for me, I will go out on date(s).  Again, adds some pressure to her to get off the pot so to speak.

[maxsterling]

Glad to hear she is doing the DBT.  That is a great start, and hopefully she sticks with it.

When I said "not working on herself" I think one has to look not just at the action but the motivation.  For example, my girlfriend has done all kinds of things in the past year - therapies, classes, jobs - all at an attempt to feel better.  But after a few weeks at each of them, she quits and claims something else is what she needs to do.  As I get to know her better, it seems her whole life has been the same way.

Is she working on herself?  In my opinion, NO.  She's still looking for something external to fix her.  Thankfully, its not drugs anymore, but I think the thought process is the same.  Everything she does to work on herself has other goals than to simply be a better person.  Sure, she wants to be a better person and be happy, but I don't see her doing the work specifically for that goal.  Instead, she does the work 1) so I won't leave her 2) so that I will have a child with her 3) so she has something to do. 

Here's an example.  My GF never cleans, and never exercises.  She will make remarks about how she should do both of those things to feel better, but just can't find the motivation.  Then she tells me I should give her chores and force her to go on walks with me.  My issue - if I give her chores, she won't do them simply because they need to get done and accomplishing that will make her feel good about herself, instead she will do them to make me happy.  That's not working on herself.  Same goes with exercise.  If she truly was working on herself, she'd find the motivation to do it on her own.  If she requires me, then she is doing it for me. If and when I see her do things without my prompt and where it looks like she would do them whether I was with her or not, then I feel more confident in moving forward in the r/s. 

If your ex was truly working on herself, she would recognize the current r/s is not what she wants, break it off, and work on herself with no guarantee you will take her back.  My gut says she may be just doing what it takes to get what she wants from you or someone else:  A house and a child.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks again for your input and again, very sage advice.

We spoke on the phone during her lunch break.  She was very happy and upbeat so I took the *opportunity* to talk to her about some things that we've said her.  I suggested that I can see her thinking that her choices are me or him in black and white only but that there is a third choice and we have talked about it before but that is the choice to work on truly becoming self-sustaining without relying on a man to take care of her.  We are going to address that some more tonight when we meet.

You are correct again; there are greater steps that she could take to work on herself, just as I have lots of room for improvement as well (working on my credit history, others).  I am proud of her for going back to therapy and I am rewarding of that to her.  I let her know that I am so happy that she has made that decision for herself.  Yes, I agree about her leaving this guy if she really was to work on herself.  Us rational people would say that.  I'm hoping that she realizes that and quickly because I am going to have a very short leash (two weeks tops) for her to make that decision.  I won't give her an ultimatum and I am hoping that she makes that decision on her own.  IF she does make that decision, then her and I can discuss whether we move back to a dating situation or if we just remain as friends (which you and I know, we can't be just friends).  If we do begin dating again, her and I will have this house talk.  If it becomes a "you need to get a house or I begin to dysregulate" type of situation, then I walk.  I have to set some serious personal boundaries with myself *should* we get to the point to where we start to talk about dating again.  I'm not ready to throw in the towel right now however, not close yet.  A couple of more weeks and we see what her play is.  If we're still in this limbo stage, then I tell her that she needs to go be a gf to her bf and stop using me as a distraction.

[cosmonaut]

I feel you, In_n_Out, about wanting to reconnect.  I know how good it feels to dream about our BPDex reuniting with us, except this time things are different - they are facing their disorder, making progress, and things are relatively good.  I am struggeling with those same emotions and desires. 

I can't add much except to say, please don't buy a house just to make your ex happy.  Please wait until you are financially ready for doing that and if your relationship with your ex has proven stable.  If she loves *you*, she will be willing to wait for that.

Good luck, man.  I know you love her and want to be with her.

[In_n_Out]

Well good call my friend; it didn't take long for her true colors to show themselves yet again.  After a day of "love, love, love" and alluding to hope for the future and "continuing to work on myself" we meet and I instantly could tell that something was off kilter.  After pretending that everything was ok, I finally asked her what was going on and she said "go get your workout in, I know that you want to do that.  I have to go."  Sad look in her eyes and I said "you really insisted on seeing me today after work first and now you're going to go be with him?"  I mean really, the nerve.  That led to me telling her that she needs to go be a gf to her bf and to stop (emotionally) cheating on him while misleading me. She called bawling saying that she's sorry that she's been selfish and I just unleashed.

So... . you will find me back at the "Leaving" board while I mend the broken heart yet once again.  This time I have to really buckle down and block, block, block.

And to anyone reading stuck in a r/s with someone with BPD... . freakin' get out while you can if you can.  :)o NOT trust a thing that they say.  Judge them by their actions and you will see the true person that they are.  Maybe they can't help it and you can pity them all that you want in your mind, but don't cave in to their advances and promises and manipulations.

[cosmonaut]

Oh, man.  I'm sorry, In_n_Out.  You doing ok?

That really is some world class manipulation.  Unbelievable.  I'm so sorry she burnt you again.  She's being cruel and heartless.  Being in love with a pwBPD is a special type of hell, isn't it?

Hang in there, man.  I'm glad you stood up for yourself.  I wouldn't give her a third chance.  I'm sorry, man.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks man.  No, it's going to hurt really bad because she had me really sucked in this time.  I fell for it hook, line and sinker.  But I'll get over it.  I've been hitting the gym like a madman since the last time that this happened and I will continue to do so.  It will suck eggs for a while and there will be some nights that I'm a bawling mess I'm sure but right now I am so utterly angry and disappointed and I hope that I keep that with me long enough to get over the heartache.  It's "Go straight to jail.  Don't pass GO and don't collect $200".  Just GO!

[In_n_Out]

So she just stopped by.  Says that she hasn't read any of my texts because she was afraid that I was mean in them.  She said that she broke up with my replacement and that it was something that she needed to build up the courage to do.  She says that she wants time alone and that she doesn't know right now if its me or him or somebody else but she needs to work on herself before she could resume something else.  She admitted that she found him as a means to try and get over me and that it was for the wrong reasons and that it was never meant to be.  Basically all the stuff she knows that I'd want to hear (except saying that she wants to come back to me). She asked if we could still go visit my mom on Sunday and I told her the truth, I already have other plans.  That upset her meaning that she started sobbing and said that she's no good for anybody and that she's broken his heart and mine and she's all messed up.  I wished her good luck and said that I hope that she is being true to herself and her word and is honestly going to concentrate on just herself right now.

We all know though that IF (big if) she did break up with him, she'll be doing the "happy dance" with him and he'll probably find these message boards eventually wondering what the hell shook up his world.  He's probably a nice guy so we can all welcome him to the group once he does start his investigation and realize what he had on his hands.

As for me, I'm going to continue to workout and work on repairing my credit and trying to save up some money so that I can get a house for me and my 14 yr old before he leaves the nest.  I don't know what I will do when (I say when, not if) she comes around again.  I know what the *smart* me should do but we all know how easy it is to get sucked in.  Hell, she already did it - an hour ago I was fuming mad at her and now I'm sad to see her drive off.  F' me!

[cosmonaut]

Wow.  It's incredible the speed with which a pwBPD can change their feelings, isn't it?  I do feel considerable empathy for those that suffer with this disorder - it must feel so chaotic to have these constant fluxes of emotion.  I think your ex is probably telling you the truth when she says that she knows she's breaking everyone's heart and she's no good for anyone.  I think some (not all) pwBPD really are aware that their behavior is hurting the people closest to them - people that they may even sincerely love.  I'm fairly certain that's the case with my ex.  She knows she's hurting me and I think she even feels true remorse.  She just doesn't know how else to deal with the raging storm of emotions she's feeling.  She doesn't have any better coping mechanisms.  I think it is very positive that your ex can see this about herself too.  The next step is to see if she will actually do something about it.  Obviously, any future of your relationship will depend on the outcome of that.

I'm really sorry you're being put through the emotional wringer.  It's awful to endure these push/pull shenanigans.  I think you have a great plan.  Continue to work on yourself.  Hit the gym.  Spend time with your son.  Save for the future.  Wait and see about the ex.  Don't put your life on hold for her or expect anything to change.  If she does end up getting serious about getting better and starts making solid progress, then you can think about resuming a relationship.  That's very much what I am leaning towards as well.  Wait and see.

[In_n_Out]

Here's what I know about my ex at least: 

1. She will wear her emotions on her sleeve and she will tell you what they are.  I completely believe her when she says that she loves me and misses this and that.  It may be "love" in a way that only she can relate to but I believe that is what she feels. But while she may (and will) tell you what her emotions are, what she does will most likely be a completely different thing. 

2. She will distort, twist, invent "facts" to match her recollection of events (classic BPD) and you will never convince her that it did or didn't happen any other way.  This will always include variations that make her look to be the "good guy" or to be "normal".  She is in a perpetual story telling mode to try and convince herself and everyone around her that she is "normal" and that she is the victim.  Again, classic BPD.

#2 collides with #1 when her emotions become built around fabrications or exaggerations.  An example "I miss and loved our walks, holding hands and skipping stones".  The truths: She feels loved during that event and she does miss it.  The exaggeration: it could be with anybody, not just me.

[maxsterling]

Wow, sorry that happened.  But I guess better to happen now than a few months from now.  I think your last post nailed it, at least the way I have seen it.  I think the pwBPD is always looking for something to fill that void where non-BPD people keep their identity and sense of self.  I know who I am and what I like, and how to take care of myself when things feel off.  Sure, I'm not perfect, but I see a marked difference between myself and my BPDgf.  She hates being alone and can't understand how I can be comfortable being alone or doing things by myself.  She has to have something or somebody, or she is bored or lonely.  If I am bored, I search for things I can do to entertain myself.  If she is bored, she seeks out people that can entertain her.  It sounds like your ex is cut from the same cloth, and what you said is probably true - that in the end it really doesn't matter who or what, she just wants someone or something to keep her from being alone with herself.  She may rather have you than this other guy, but she'd rather have this other guy than nothing.  But, she'd also rather be married with a house than not married and in an apartment.  So in that sense, she may rather have him than you.  It's the constant need of others to fill that void that they cannot fill themselves. 

If there is good news, it sounds like she is a little bit awakened to her role in her own issues and the need to work on herself.  At times, my GF definitely recognizes her role and makes statements admitting to this.  But I wonder how much is just lip service?  With all the therapy she has had her whole life, my guess is that this is not the first time she is coming to this understanding.  And probably the same for your ex.  She may have known for years that her failed relationships are in part due to her needing to feel secure with herself, and tried and tried to fix that.  It's just in the long run, she is going to do what relieves her emotional distress in the short term, because finding one's identity is very hard work.

[In_n_Out]

My ex is a very self-aware BPD.  She's had two T's tell her that she has obvious BPD traits but I don't know that it's been a full blown diagnosis.  At any rate, she knows that it's been a life filled with failed r/s attempts and that she basis *everything* on these r/s's.  She dropped out of college to move to a different town following a guy, leaves jobs because of guys.  It's like that is the bane of her existence; having a guy that she can love and that loves her (that she doesn't have *any* issues with whatsoever - the perfect "model".  I honestly feel that she just wants to love and be loved but can't handle the conflict and with her extreme emotions that just won't be.

She is very sensitive to everything; light, sounds, temperature.  She is easily stressed and cannot multi-task at all.  She is wonderful with people though.  We were walking in the park once and she saw a teenage girl sitting on a bench that is upset.  It wasn't obvious to me that she was and you and me and everyone else would just walk by minding our own business. My ex however stops and says "this isn't me hugging you, it's God using me to give you strength" and she will hug this girl and they both will cry and then by the time she is done, the girl on the bench smiles at her and says "thank you soo much!" and my ex will pull on that for days or weeks about how she felt that bond and how much she gets from feeling other peoples emotions.  And that's a key- she's separating from herself to feel other people's emotions to mask her own hurt/shame/whatever.

I'm going to see my ex briefly today after work.  I'm in the FOG big time and I needed to just see her.  I sent a text saying what I wrote above, about how it was the idea of me that she loved and not necessarily *me*.  She replied "No In-N-Out. The <something that she shared> was for you, because I pictured you.  You for you.  *YOU*.  I love you.  :)espite and because of everything we have been through.  I don't care if you don't believe me".  She follows that up with "Actually, that's not true.  I do care what others think... . too much.  And that is part of what I have to work on. Not needing so much validation from others or basing my sense of worth on what others think of me.  I love you.  I've gotta love myself.  That's the biggest thing".

So she is very aware.  Now it could be asked if she uses that awareness to manipulate others?  Yes, no, maybe?  Is she really a wonderful person trapped with a mind that will split when there is a conflict and will dysregulate and look to cause conflict so that she can say "see, I knew it.  He's not the one either... . push away".

I don't know.  She's insisting on seeing my mother (grave site) on Sunday and says that she will go with or without me because she feels that it was my mom that brought us back together and she wants to thank her and honor her.  She never met my mother but she's bonded with her.  That's the kind of stuff that makes it so hard to just walk away.  I wish that I could just walk away - get away fast and not deal with this.  I just want to love the woman and not have to analyze and evaluate and decipher what the hell she means or why she's doing or saying something.  But it would never be just that easy.  Shouldn't a happy r/s be easier than that?

[maxsterling]

Thanks, In-n-Out for posting this thread and sharing.  many of the topics here have been quite helpful to me in thinking about my own r/s and about the dynamics of the FOG.  Sometimes reading these boards it sounds like the pwBPD are typically out of control, ungrateful, and unaware.  But like you, I'm held in this undecided phase because I'm dealing with someone who does at times show gratitude and awareness.  It really sounds like your ex has some grasp of the BPD dynamic, and I feel hope for her.  But I also see that is a big part of your FOG.

My situation is so similar in many ways.  She knows she has BPD.  She seeks therapy.  She knows she has made bad decisions and hurt others.  At times she is very empathetic towards others.  I see positive changes in her.  I question whether she loves me or needs me, and I do recognize that she sees something different in me than she did in exes.  She tells me that I am exactly the type of man she always wanted, even as far back as high school.   She also tells me she wants to be part of my family because they are good and supportive.

But, when I think about it, I know I love her, and want the best for her.  But she is definitely NOT the type of person I always wanted.  And if I am what she always wanted, then why was she always choosing the opposite before she met me?  Does that mean I am really not what she wants, just what she wants right now?  And despite her struggles to be a better person, my basic relationship needs aren't being met.  Just like you said, a happy r/s should be easier than this.  I still feel like what I want from life and a r/s is dependent on her moods.  My friend is having a birthday party tonight, whether I go or not will depend on my GF's mood.  Same goes with family visits, sexual interactions, what we do over the weekend, what *I* can get done over the weekend, whether I see my friends... .   She's a great person inside, but very damaged.  And unless things change within her, she will always be needy and looking for my shoulder to prop her up. 

[In_n_Out]

Wow, yeah.  That reads so similar.  I bet that we could share a lot of stories over a *lot* of beers together. 

I'm in a parking lot, waiting for her to finish her lab tests at a clinic (she has a UTI) and she's also seeing if she can get insurance coverage for the therapist.  I asked to meet her because I after the drama of last night, I just needed another hug; another "fix", another "hit" I guess.  I was just thinking that no matter how disappointed in her I get, how angry, sad, frustrated... . I seem to quickly forget that when she gives me a hug, pulls back and says "I love you" with tears in her eyes.  Oh how I wish I could just walk away and move on... . it would be so much easier in the long run I know. 

I don't know what's going to happen.  She doesn't know what's going to happen.  Actually, I think I know what she would like to have happen but she just can't make it happen.  She'd love me and him and everyone else to just go away without her feeling the sense that she *has* to have one (or more) of us in order for her to survive.   For the past number of years, when she's "hit bottom" and is in despair, she has often said that she needs to "love herself" before she can love another.  That's a common phrase and she's picked up on it perhaps as a "catch phrase" but there is no doubt some truth in there.  How to get her to love herself though is still beyond me at this point.  She can be so loving and caring with others but so damaging to herself (not meaning cutting incidents, but she says that she has had self-injury incidents many years ago). 

We can have such fun together.  Three days ago, I was chasing her up and down the aisles in Walmart... . running and giggling at one another like HS kids (and I turn 50 this year).  We can get in to laughing "fits" that last longer than they should because it just gets to the point of us being silly.  Conversely, we can also go weeks without laughing at all with lots of crying, her walking out of the house pouting and her pulling away.  Now she throws in the silent treatment; or has, but that was when she was seeing somebody else (i.e., until last night - supposedly breaking up with this other guy but I don't buy it). 

I'm rambling trying to pass time.  Tears well up and I fight to hold them back but they will release when I see her.  I've done the "tough guy" act and lately I've been a crying mess.  She gravitates much more towards the crying mess.  Maybe I just need to toughen up, bite the bullet and walk away.  Raise your hands if you can relate to that being easier said than done... . yeah, I'm not alone there am I?

[In_n_Out]

Well we did the long, tearful goodbye yet again just a bit ago.  She showed up and had roses for my moms grave.  She thought that we could go today, now instead of Sunday so that I could enjoy my weekend (  ).  I said no, I was much too tired (I am, I awake at 3 a.m. every morning from having dreams of her) and that I didn't want to take up too much of her time, that I just needed a hug.  It turned out to be the farewell routine that we've done 3 or 4 times now.

Similar to the last times; she needs to work on her before she can be with anybody but she loves me very much.  Of course last time she never stopped seeing my replacement and I suspect it will be the same here.  She's still holding out hope that she can somehow get along with the guy well enough to be his wife and live in his piece of crap house that she says she doesn't like.  God.  I would hope though that she has enough personal integrity to be honest with herself and that she really did break up with him and is putting "guys" on hold in order to heal.  Not likely.  She did say that she's very scared though of being alone that she's never done it before.  

I suspect that unless I stop it for real this time, we'll go through another 30 day period of NC and then either her or I will reach out and we'll go through this whirlwind 5 days or so of complete bliss only to get split from again because she needs to "learn to love herself first".  Is it wrong for me to hold on to hope that she really has finally bottomed out and will do that?  Well, I do.  Maybe she has and will.  I may never know.  Likely though, I will snoop around enough to know that she hasn't.  Actually, too late, I already started.  She's still friends with him on facebook though she hasn't been on it in a couple of days.  When her and I split for real the first time, I was immediately defriended (and eventually blocked) on facebook.  

So, I'll linger around and will post random thoughts perhaps at times and then in x number of days, probably start another post about how to interpret this or that about her.  She said it and I should listen to her but she said to keep improving myself, that she's so proud of me and to what I need to do to make myself happy.  There was just no convincing that what I feel at this moment is that being with her is what would make me the happiest.  Perhaps she's wiser than me though.

[maxsterling]

If you can - I think the best advice would be to say, "Go, work on yourself.  Contact me when you feel things are right."  Then, wait without your fingers crossed.  If she contacts you and you are still single, great.  Unfortunately, that's a tough thing to do.  Honestly, I think that is what my girlfriend needs to do.  And at times before she met me, she said that is what she tried to do - be by herself, concentrate on herself, not date anyone.  But that never lasted more than a few weeks.  And I think if she truly cared about me, she would see that she needs to work on herself, would break it off, work on herself, and then hope I am still single when she was more stable.  She knows it's not fair for me to be dealing with all her issues.  She's really never been stable enough to have a relationship - I'm sure she has hurt many people on the way.

I really hope your ex figures herself out - for her sake, and for whomever she eventually winds up with.  She's telling you she needs to work on herself - take that as a warning from her.  I've hear that from women before, too, and rarely heeded the warning.  And every time I wound up hurt.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks again for the reply.  You're right, I wish that I could trust that she would just work on herself and not go looking for another guy because she gets scared and alone.  I'd be happy to let her do that.  In fact, I was prepared to do that starting tonight when (queue cheesy 'chick flick' music in the background)... .

So I came home, very blue and sad and figured I better get my a$$ to the gym.  Nothing like being in a near empty gym alone on a Friday night, right?  So I'm just doing some cardio, listening to music that I shouldn't be listening to and I keep looking out the big windows hoping to see her car pull up as it had so many times before but it wasn't to be.  I finished up the cardio and had an overwhelming urge to go to the coffee shop on the square where we had met most every night of the past week.  It's her favorite coffee shop and she hopes to get the courage to frame some of her pictures and display them there.  I go up to the counter to order and the femaile barista who works there every night asks how things are going.  "ugh.  So-so I guess".  She then asks where my other half is.  "Not my other half any longer".  That leads to a conversation; you guys looked really happy the other night and if it's meant to be, etc. 

So I'm sitting at the table that we always sat at (yes, I'm a glutton for punishment it appears) and I'm fighting the urge to text her. I'm really hoping that she walks in the door.  She doesn't and I say screw it.  So I send a text and say that the coffee shop lady is asking where she is.  No reply.  Great, I bet I'm blocked on facebook, texts, phone.  Painted black or just black listed.  But then, my phone beeps and it's her. "Are you still there?".  Yes.  "Wait".  I have been.

She pulls up and it's a bit awkward but we hug and I get the usual "we can't keep doing this!" business.  (any of you guys throwing up in your mouths yet?  ).  So we drink our coffee and walk the square and listen to some live music and jump on the piano that is laying on the sidewalk outside the toy store (as in the movie "Big" and she says "this is all that I wanted a couple of years ago from you, a little more of this".  I walk her to her car and she says that she needs space and I tell her I'm sorry to reach out and yes, I'll give you space but I can't do the silent treatment stuff; not after the wonderful week that we just had.  She says fine, but no dozens of texts.  Ok, guilty.  I'll chill on the texting.  She says "journal it if you must document stuff and ... . I swear that I heard this... . she says "and we'll have an open book wedding so that people can read it".  Maybe my mind played tricks on me though.

So a hug goodnight and I drive home much happier than I came there being as.  Now a quick silly something but when I moved in to my townhome, she bought me a housewarming gift- a fern.  I baby that thing.  Well, it isn't doing so good.  I left it out one night during a freeze that I didn't know was going to hit and the fern isn't doing so good.  So I pull in to my driveway and the fern is green and lush and bushy and I'm like "what the f***?"  It then dawns on me, it's a new fern.  Big smile and I call her to thank her but it goes straight to voicemail.  On the fern is a note; "I love you (heart) - Always".  Jeezuz! 

So the phone rings and she's laughing and she says that she went to the grocery store to buy some comfort food (icecream) and that she was going to have a night at home watching a chick flick eating ice cream.  While at the grocery store though, she sees all these ferns that they have and she can't help herself so she buys one.  She said that she drove to my house but my car was gone.  "$hit!" she says.  He's out with friends.  "Wait!, the gym".  So she drove by the gym but I wasn't there either.  She said that her phone as almost dead and so she had it off but she turns it on at 8:00 and at 8:01 my text comes through talking about the coffee shop lady.

We laughed about it on the phone and ended the conversation with me wishing her a fun Saturday with her friends and that I'd still like to go visit my mom Sunday.  She said that she would think about that and let me know.  I'll see her Sunday.

So maxsterling your post is a good bit of advice yet again.  I'll chill on the texting, let her miss me a little bit and just keep doing what I've been doing.  A bit of persistence and then who the hell knows. 

Hopefully this mushy story didn't bore you all to death but instead gives some hope to those in similar positions.  She can't walk away completely yet if I try and get too close, she pushes away.  Lesson learned.  Keep my distance but don't fade away entirely.  Maybe I'll play my cards just right and then who hell knows, right?

[cosmonaut]

This is all a rather fascinating story, In_n_Out.  I wish you the best.  I don't have any advice other than to be careful and watch out for yourself.  Don't trust too easily or forgive too freely.  I know how easily I might get sucked back into a bad relationship.  I imagine you are the same - you seem to realize that.  Anyway, keep posting.  I really do hope the best for you.  Just be careful.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks Cosmo, I appreciate that.  She sent texts at 3 a.m. saying that she had been up all night, ate a pint of icecream, watching chick flicks and with her head reeling about her and me.  I thanked her for showing me things that I had missed during our r/s, how to get out and enjoy things.  Last night was an example.  It was fun to get out and enjoy the out of doors activities.  We didn't do a lot of that.  I told her that 'whomever' I wind up with, I want to get out more and enjoy things because we didn't do enough of that.  :)uring our r/s, I had gotten out of shape BIG time.  Very fat.  I couldn't stand for long periods of time without my back killing me (weak core).  I've been a bodybuilder all of my life and with her, I stopped working out because she doesn't go to the gym (she doesn't eat and so she's thin; not sickly thin but not eating is her weight control - not healthy).  Since the breakup, I'm up at 4:30 a.m. doing an hour of cardio before work and then 2 hours in the gym later in the evening.  I've lost over 6" in my waist.  I'm active and healthy again. It's been a lot of hard work.  Whomever I wind up with needs to understand that I enjoy doing this conditioning and that is me.  My ex would say "you should go to the gym more often" as she was passing me another plate of spaghetti in between watching DVD's.  Never again.  Her seeing what I have achieved and then going to the town square on a Friday night to where as before I wouldn't have before I think has her mind "reeling".  

[In_n_Out]

Well for those following this saga, we had another wonderful weekend together.  No, not "intimate" but just spending a lot of time together and really enjoying it.  Yesterday was one of the best days that we've ever had together.  She came over and I made her breakfast.  At this point, the first "test" of the day came up.  I have a female friend that I've known for years.  My ex knows of her but never has met her.  Because of the "walking on eggshells" syndrome, I basically had stopped communicating with this friend because I knew that it would freak my ex out (insecurity, BPD jealousy).  We have since reconnected.  Well, we had dinner planned for a week and I had let my ex know about it.  Over breakfast, my ex began to lay out plans for the day and I let her know that I'm free until dinner at 5:30.  Her mood changed instantly.  She got up and said that she had lost her appetite and began to put her coat on.  She said "I know that I'm sounding like a hypocrite but that just hurts me".  I validated those feelings but she was still withdrawn and about to walk out.  I felt my frustration level rise.  She said what she always says "and now you're getting defensive".  I smirked.  "And that smirk".  This was a real test.  I approached her but she pulled back.  I persisted and put my arms on hers (gently) and she stopped.  I then pulled her close to me and hugged her and asked her to please sit down.  I told her again that it's obvious that this has her upset however, I explained, that this friend is just a friend and has only ever been a friend to me.  That I noticed that she has several male friends on her facebook.  As a for instance, if one of them came to town and called her up and said "let's catch up", I would... . because I TRUST her, LOVE her and I am SECURE in myself, say "honey, go have a wonderful time catching up with your friend over lunch or dinner".  She said "you have a good point".

So we hugged again and got through breakfast.  We then did something that may wind up hurting me but we drove to a neighborhood where we had once went house shopping.  It was her idea and so we drove the neighborhood picking out houses that we liked, pretending that we were house shopping again.  She said "For today, I just want to pretend that everything is ok again" and I went along with it.  We had a good time.  Took pictures of houses and actually stopped in and talked to someone at one of the model homes.

Afterwards, she asked if we could go visit my moms grave.  Perhaps I mentioned up thread that what got us talking again was a handwritten letter that said that she had gone to my moms grave and wept and had a "talk" with her.  At that point, the sun came out and shone upon the grave marker.  My ex captured the moment on her cell phone camera and then later presented a picture to me of it.  She had it put in a nice frame and I cried with such emotion at the thought of that gift.  Well this day she wanted to go out and say "thanks" to my mom for pulling us back together (talking) again and to pay her respects.  She had purchased a small rose plant/bush and we planted it at the head of my moms grave marker.  We cried and I talked about my mom (she had never met her) and of the similarities between the two of them.

I went out to dinner and my friend understood (somewhat) when I said that I'm sorry for being so rude, but please let me send out a quick text.  I sent a short text to my ex and said that we had a nice, simple dinner and were chatting for a bit and that I would be heading out shortly.  She replied "have a wonderful dinner, I love you".  After I left, I sent a text and asked if I could call her.  I wanted to gauge her emotional level.  She replied "no".  Oh crap I thought, he we go.  Her next text read "a hug on my doorstep would be nice though".  I smiled and stopped by on my way home and we hugged and since I had a cheesecake with me from dinner, I asked if she would like to share a piece of it.  We did and while sitting on my old sofa where I sat and ate dinner so many times, she did what she used to do so often; she straddled me (clothed you dirty minds! ) and hugged me.  I thanked her and we parted for the night.

The final "test" came during texting while saying goodnight.  One of the sticking points for us is that her family and friends have me painted black because my ex has spoken so often about "all the hurtful things that I have said".  I suggested that perhaps she could confide in her one new close friend because surly she doesn't know the "hurt" yet.  "I have and she knows that I love you but she said that I have been hurt and it would probably be best to just move on."  That stuck like a knife in my chest.  I said some invalidating things because I was pretty upset.  I said that I feel like my side of the story hasn't been properly told; all the wonderful times that we did have, things that were said and done out of love yet all that her friends and family have heard are that we had arguments and she was hurt and that was preventing her from wanting to move forward with reconciliation because she would look two-faced in their eyes; "oh, he's manipulated you in to saying that he was really a good guy to you after all". 

She replied "please, stop.  Don't ruin the wonderful day that we had.  Just sleep.  I know that I love you and that's all that I know right now".  I turned off my phone and went to bed upset.

This morning, I called and got her voicemail.  I said that I don't want her to say or feel that I'm blaming her for her friends and family not understanding the real me.  Just that it hurts me to know that they have only a part of the full picture and that is a big stumbling block for us right now".  An hour went by and I figured that she had been invalidated to the point of withdrawing again but my phone rang a bit ago and she began to sing "sunshine, you are my sunshine".  I smiled and she said "I'm in the bathroom at work, I just wanted to sing that to you and tell you that I love you".  WOW, I went from doom and gloom to instant happiness.  Are we making a breakthrough?  I don't know.  Will I just get my heart stomped on again?  Probably - especially if she recycles with my replacement I will for sure.  All I know is that I'm so thoroughly enjoying the "here and the now" and communicating with my ex like never before and more importantly - she is responding in such a different way than ever before.

[maxsterling]

Wow - great!  I'm proud of the way you handled yourself!

[In_n_Out]

I'm sort of blogging now, I hope that you all don't mind.   

So she texts me earlier that she's having a horrible day at work.  She says that for the year that she's almost been there, her boss is (this and that) and that she doesn't know how much more she can take.  Same stuff that she did throughout the r/s.  Now perhaps though there is extra motivation because my replacement is the son of one of her co-workers and the entire office practically had them married off so I would imagine that *if* she did break up with the guy, there's quite a bit of tension in that office.  She mentioned nothing about tension between her and her possible future mother-in-law, just problems with the boss.  So I'm not entirely convinced that her r/s with him is over (well duh, right?). 

So we get to our respective homes at about the same time and I had a doozy of a day myself.  I didn't sleep again last night and I'm exhausted.  However, she throws out that line and I go chasing it.  Nobody else here does that though, right?  So she says that she's going for a walk around the square.  I say "if you want some company, all that you have to do is ask".  She does and I'm there in 10 minutes flat.   

So we walk the square and then over to the university where we met for our 2nd date.  It is right around the corner from the house that we shared and so it's full of memories.  The church that we were to be married in is on campus; she had it rented and everything before she started to devalue me.  Anyways, she's getting a bit mushy and would brush my hand and then pull it away if I reached for it.  Damn kids games.  I'm going on 50, ya know?  So I start thinking, "we can play this game".  No more flirting during the walk and I start speaking a little bit of a future that doesn't include her in it.  She's picking up on the hints and getting a bit sad but she plays it off.  We go to the water fountain where on our 2nd date she played up this routine that I'm sure that she'd performed several times before for other guys... . she takes off her shoes and "pretends" that she is being very taboo and gets in the fountain.  On that date, wanting to get lucky (heh!) I stupidly played along while she snapping pictures.  One of those pics was my damn wallpaper for years.  So anyways, I'm wanting to play up the "not in my future sadness" routine myself, I get "taboo" and take off my shoes and she's like "WOW, you're not!"  Sure as $hit I do and I'm in this damn fountain acting a fool.  She's almost in tears laughing saying "if only you had done more of this when we were together!".  Yeah, well, tough. 

So we wrap that exercise up and I walk to the corner and say "this is where you go that way (her house) and I go this way (my car)".  She has a sad look in her face.  She asks if we'll always be "friends".  "I don't know.  I honestly can't say.  I do know that I enjoy the here and the now and not looking back in to the past nor sweating over the future like we/you always did".  I walked to my car and thought about it and said 'what the heck', I'll stop in and talk to the coffee shop chick (who is probably half my age and has freakin' rivets stapled to her collar bone but she's cute in a very freakish way).  We have a chat and I send a text to the ex "having a ham sandwich at the coffee shop.  Hope that you make yourself a wonderful dinner.  My phone is about to die so I'll say goodnight now.  Hope your day is better tomorrow!" and that's it.  She's texting like crazy and I just powered down my phone.

Now the fun will begin.  I fully expect a knock on my door at any moment: "I was worried about you!  You never not answer your phone for me!".  Well, the times, they are a changin'!  Yes folks, I finally said enough of the childish middle school games of "you can't date me, you can't kiss me!" and am ready to start pulling away.  I fully expect she'll either freak out (feeling abandoned) and run or perhaps she'll do what any other *normal* woman would do and start to pursue.  We will see.  The DRAMA continues! 

[In_n_Out]

Well we were together again after work.  Mowed her (my old) lawn for the first time this season.  I always enjoyed doing that.  She was very loving saying how she wishes we could just be "home" again (together) but that the old pain still hurts. 

She admitted that my replacement is contacting her and trying to patch things up.  I asked if she's responding.  "Yes".  Of course she is.  Do they have plans to go out yet? "No". 

I got in the mail my latest read on BPD; "Loving Someone with BPD" by Dr. Manning.  I've read the first couple of chapters and like what I'm reading thus far.  I shared some of it with my ex before she said "no more, not right now". 

I came home and we texted and she was very uplifted and happy in the texts saying that this is the happiest that anybody has made her in a very long time.  I had seen my therapist today and we talked about my codependency and so I talked to the ex a little bit about that.  That the addiction to her stems from the same part of the brain that deals with other addictions and that she is my "heroin" and even though I know that it will kill me, I can't stop taking it.  I said that I know that she will wind up breaking my heart again but I'm enjoying the moment for what it is right now.  She said that she doesn't want to be my "heroin" and please work on the codependency because she "has a history of that".

So, I guess I do need some advice again.  Just keep doing what I'm doing and hope that she tells the replacement to go away or just know that she is going to recycle with him and when she does, I will need to go away for good finally?

She says that she has lots of pressure on her with this replacement guy.  As mentioned, she works with his mom plus her family and friends are pressuring her to "stick this one out".  They're all tired of hearing about her breaking up with guy after guy I suppose and just want her to marry one finally and be done with it.

I know that we can't talk about her not going back to him because she would be doing so for the wrong reasons.  I mean, we have talked about that but I know that it goes in one ear and out the other because it is all about her emotions and her rash decision making.  I'm hoping that this book will give some insight with the DBT training on how to help them make rational, cognitive decisions.

[In_n_Out]

I had a service call to her office yesterday - first thing in the morning.  We had already been chatting via text.  I said that I'd see her soon and she said "don't run up and kiss me!".  I showed up at the office and she put on her best "professional" tone and greeted me.  I did the service needed for the doctor and then left.  At one point, she poked her head in to the room that I was in with tears in her eyes and she said "it's starting already, first thing in the morning".  I wasn't sure what she meant but later found out that the doctor had invalidated an emotion by giving her the cold shoulder.  

We later met at her little hideway that she drives to during her lunch hour.  We hugged and laughed and I "stole" a kiss goodbye.  She seemed to be in good spirits but was talking about the office manager and how she's "two-faced".

I went to the gym after work and while there, my ex said that she was stopping by my moms grave to water the recently planted rose bush that we had planted over the weekend.  I reinforced for her how special of a person that she is to me and that I had the two most important women in my life together.  She took a picture of the bush and how it is preparing for 5 new blooms.  I asked if she would join me for dinner later and she said that she would.

We met for dinner and during the entire meal she "vented" about her work and the office manager and how she's been threatened with her job and how she can't lose yet another job; that her parents would frown upon her and how she could lose the little house that she rents and loves so much.  I validated her emotions by agreeing that I can see how upset the office manager makes her and how anybody would be upset if they were talked down to like she is saying that she does.  At one point, I moved over to her side of the table and held her as she became emotional talking about work.

Talk about my replacement came up and this may of not been a good move on my behalf but I told her that I think that she should spend time with him this weekend "if that is what you feel that you want to do".  She had a startled look on her face.  I continued "because the more time that you spend with him, the more times he will invalidate your motions like the time that you said he (example) and you will eventually begin to pull away from him.  And I hope that it happens before you lose your house that you've worked so hard on and gone and moved in to his POS house that you say you don't care for and before you're stuck in a legally binding contract called marriage that you can't just up and walk away from".  I said also that I'm so confident that this will happen because "it's already happening with him, it happened with us and I can rest assured that it has happened in every past relationship that you have had".  She said "you brought me out to dinner for this?".  I thought that she would begin to have a strong reaction to that and storm out of the restaurant but instead she quickly changed her mood to happy by bringing up something funny and we laughed and moved on away from the subject.  Her way of deflecting and redirecting.

We stopped by my place after dinner because I had some things that she wanted to borrow.  We came upstairs and she sat on my bed and breathed a heavy sigh.  I sat next to her and put my arm around her and she said "I don't know where you stop and I begin.  You are my best friend and when we are 'in sync' I have never been closer to anybody else".  I went to kiss her and she pulled away.  I asked why is it that she pulls away when I go to kiss her now; "was it because of him?".  She said that it wasn't and then she cupped my face and we kissed, passionately.  I drove her to her car and along the way she was getting a bit emotional talking about how her parents would be crushed to know that we were talking again and that her best friend said "she would 'kill' her if she ever spoke to me again".  This is what is going to tear us apart again, or it is one of the big reasons why. I told her that some of my friends were the same way but I reassured them that when I had confided in them, I was hurting and placing all the blame on her (my ex) but that we were talking again and coming to understandings and to 'trust me'.  My friends have said that they may not agree with my decision but that they "will stand behind me" on it.  I let her know that.

I came home and got ready for bed.  We texted a few times about the "friends" thing (her friends not approving) and then just as I climbed in to bed, my phone rang - it was her.  She was crying.  I could barely understand her but the gist of it was that she's not a bad person and that she doesn't want to hurt me but she doesn't want to hurt him and that so many people are relying on her to "get it right" this time (the r/s with my replacement) and that I said to go spend time with him to find out and that maybe she needs to do that (crap, I knew that would come back to bite me!) but she knows that I will be crushed.  She was near panic.  I tried validation; "this seems to have you very upset and very confused right now".  After she stopped long enough for me to interject a question, I asked "do you find yourself happy when you are with me?".  She reiterated about "now" she has been so very happy and that when in sync, the world is perfect.  I asked if she found herself happy with him.  She replied "at the beginning it was wonderful and all of my friends and family said that I looked to be the happiest that they've ever seen me but then you came back, or I don't know when, but then it wasn't as happy and I became confused".  

I told her that I understood the confusion and the anxiety and suggested that she go splash cold water on her face to settle the nerves and to do a few things to get ready for bed.  She sounded like a little child; "Ok.  Ok, I will.  Thank you.  Just know that whatever happens, I love you so very much and that I'm not an awful person and I didn't want to hurt you".  I went to bed with that on my mind all night.

So I don't know.  Is the final end in sight?  I think that it very much is.  She mentioned that she had some Easter thing planned and that she didn't know what to do (go with him or what) and that the girls at her work all questioned her about me: "so that was your ex?" and that one office lady who is close to my replacements mom (who works there as well) said in effect "don't you go and hurt <him>!".  

So my ex is getting high pressure sales from her friends and family over my replacement and he apparently is in the FOG and pressuring her and she's starting to cave but has such mixed emotions because we have been on top of the world together for the past few weeks now.  Hell, I'd be confused and very upset too and she has the BPD so she must be a wreck.  She is a wreck, what am I saying.  I don't know how else to play this one but than to just keep what I've been doing which is working great for us but then if/when she says "I have to go see him" and my emotions turn up a notch and I say to myself "really?  how, why after the weeks that we just spent together?" and then do I just tell her that she needs to 'resolve' that and walk away or do I keep triangulating hoping that things continue to sour for them (they will)?  I have myself convinced that she will walk away again.  It's my way of preparing for the inevitable.  I guess my question at this point is, do I break it off for good if/when she does or just keep hanging in there because she seems so very close to coming back "for good" this time (but is it every really "for good"?).

Thanks for letting me blog and if anybody has any suggestions on all of this soap opera, I'm certainly open to hearing your thoughts on it.

[goldylamont]

in-n-out, what a story. i've read a good deal but not all so excuse if i miss some of the details.

from what i've read, i'm really worried that you aren't setting strong enough boundaries because you still strongly believe that (1) she will change and get better and (2) you two will repair the relationship and be long term monogamous. i'm concerned though because the story reads like the person who is most in *control* of everything here is her. she spends time with you pretty much whenever she wants (with the exception of you having dinner with a friend, which was a great thing for you to do), and she also does whatever she wants with her fiance--apologies if it's not officially her fiance but from what i read they are scheduled to be married but taking a break?

if you didn't find out about BPD until after you broke up but she's known about this all along then she was being dishonest from the start.

you now seem to be in a post-breakup semi-honeymoon phase. you're both getting some emotional support but you don't get any sex. she's perfectly ok with this arrangement while she waits for her emotions to come around and she can put her fiance back on a pedestal (and you back onto the dirt). are you ok with this arrangement?

her going with you to your mother's grave was a boundary buster -- you wanted to go alone, she said no and eventually you complied. that isn't to say that she didn't have real emotions around wanting to do it, but basically she got her way here. sure, she did lots of sweet stuff to tell you how much all this meant to *HER*... . while politely railroading anything that you wanted until you changed your mind. while you do have beautiful memories and she was behaving seemingly admirably by gifting you the photos of the grave and such--she ended up getting just what she wanted; and knew just how to do it. i'm not saying there was no sincerity in her actions, but, i'm just saying.

ultimately if you want to know how she would treat you if you decided to get married, well you already know this since you can see how she's treating her fiance now -- you two would have a short honeymoon period (just as you once had and as she just had with her fiance), then trouble would start (again), then she would start another emotional and/or sexual relationship with a new man, or ex, or her ex-fiance. at 43 this is probably just normal for her. it may be new ground for you but much of this is probably par for course in her experience.

she does sound like she's highly aware and at times remorseful/introspective. and this just confuses things because her actions don't reflect this for long. mine was high functioning too. oh and the "i want to get better for you" line is just that -- it's just a line. well, it was for me and in tons of other stories i've heard. maybe she wants to on monday, but will she still on friday? the answer to this lies in how she has already behaved--the answer is already there in the history

[In_n_Out]

Thank you so much for your reply as it feels good to be able to "talk" to *somebody* about this and with someone that knows the "back" story.  I have discussed with my therapist to some extent but the sessions are far too infrequent.

Some clarifications.  He isn't her fiance.  FWIU, he literally was pulling out the ring when she said "don't - I can't do this right now".  They then broke shortly afterwards and she's spent every day with me since.  They are texting and I would assume on the phone together at times, but she is spending a LOT of time with me the past few weeks (every day). 

Not that it really matters but the incident at my moms grave; it was completely HER idea that we go.  I basically tagged along with her.  She went again yesterday before seeing me to tend to the roses.  She sent a picture of how they look now.

Regarding revealing that she has BPD when we first started dating.  She did, sort of.  She had books that just looked like some of those "self help" books and I didn't really pay attention to what they were.  I knew that she had had difficulties with relationships and that she is highly emotional so I figured that these were psychology books to help her to understand herself.  I felt at the time (wrongly) that I didn't need to read a book to know that she's got some issues (why I would stick around knowing that I knew that is something that we all ask ourselves here).  But no, she didn't sit me down and say "I've been diagnosed with this thing called BPD and that means... . ".  Would you do that with someone that you were dating if you knew without a doubt that the person would see you as being "broken" and ill?  I can understand why she would only "hint" at it.

The "hang up" as I see it right now, and as she's indicated is that her parents, friends and co-workers *expect* her to go through with marrying this guy but she has said numerous times to me that she can't devote herself fully to him because she still loves me and she says that she has tried to rid herself of me but she just can't do it because only I know her as well as she knows herself.  So, she has:

1. Lots of peer pressure to do what others feel she should do and this happens every time with her overbearing parents and she relents and does not what she feels is best for her but what they expect of her because she feels that she is broken and doesn't know what is best for her and;

2. She has a semi-clean slate with him but he has begun to feel frustration and has invalidated her emotions so this is becoming less of an issue.  I know that she knows that the inevitable will happen again and I've validated her anxiety and confusion and asked her what would she do if she found herself suddenly married to this guy, stuck in his house and in a legally binding contract.  What will she do if she feels like she needs to run away again?

3. Self-pressure.  Shes' 43, never married, no kids and no career.  She feels that her time is passing and that if not now, nobody will want to marry her and that she's incapable of fixing her credit, paying off debt (student loans and an unemployment snafu) and getting material things on her own accord.  IOW, she feels that she has to rely on someone else to do the things that she could and should be doing for herself.

What do I think *could* happen?  I think that with the right positive reinforcement, she could and would resume therapy and DBT's (she's already started taking these steps but she will need some hand-holding to stay committed to it) and I know that she can devote herself to the r/s.  We lived together for 3 years and she only left twice; once to go to the beach for the weekend without me because she was dysregulated and the 2nd time was when she left the r/s "for good", slamming the door behind her.  But now, here we are.

Again, thanks for your input - keep it coming, I need the same validation that I've been giving to her emotions.