Divorce and Custody Court tomorrow

[Panshekay]

It’s finally here... .Wed and Thur is the Divorce and Custody hearing. Our son hasn’t seen our Grandson for about 42 days. I feel at peace, not sure why... .I guess by the Grace of God. I’m asking for prayers that the truth will be shown in the courtroom and the judge will see our soon to be EX DIL for what she really is.  As many know this has been a 4 year battle, 2+ year divorce battle. I have appreciated the support, ForverDad, SES, Panda39 FF, LNL.  Like I told our S, no matter what happens these next few days it’s not over, it’s never over... .thanks  to all who share their stories, it’s what has helped us get through it... .as much as possible. I hope I have good news to share on Thur. Again thank you.

[Panda39]

Who knew Elvis was so deep 

Thinking of you 

[formflier]

I will be praying for you.

State your truth, submit your evidence, take notes and suggest hard questions or point out inconsistencies for your lawyer to use.

Lots of notes... .

   

FF

[ForeverDad]

There is absolutely positively nothing wrong with you and your son trying to remain/be a part of GS's life.

One aspect of a trial, beyond presenting your case for a best-scenario outcome, is providing a solid foundation of facts presented on the record and probably identified with Exhibit numbers or letters.  Have triplicates, one each for selves, other side and judge.  If the outcome is lousy, you'll need that already done since most states require appeals, objections and requests for reconsideration be limited to only the testimonies and evidence submitted.  Appeals, etc are often waged on the technicalities, what may seem an obvious miscarriage of justice may be excluded and what you see as inconsequential may be what get selected to send the case back for reconsideration.

Do not fear asking for what you see as needed to correct the problems, but it's okay to state willingness to work even with half-measures that would be better than the current impasse.  For example, "Your Honor, with all these identified obstructions of Father's parenting, notwithstanding Mother's claimed reasons for her obstructions, the court must accept that no claim has been substantiated against Father.  The most obvious remedy would be to limit Mother's domination of parenting and grant Father full custody and majority parenting to Father.  If that solution is too great a change for the court then Father is willing to try again with Joint Custody but as Decision Making or Tie Breaker parent to reduce Mother's determination to shut Father out of parenting by her making repeated unsubstantiated allegations to keep Father on the defensive... ."

Okay, I admit my address to the court was a bit wishful but if only... .

[ForeverDad]

Reviewing this thread reminded me that our perspective, and how we present ourselves, is that we're problem solvers.  Or need to be seen that way by the court.  Thank you, Bill Eddy.  Panshekay's DIL is making allegation after allegation and her obvious goal is to have their child's Father banished from his son's life.  Hopefully court will not accept that tactic as a solution.  So a part of the challenge her son and his lawyer have is to outline the problem and present solutions.  Okay, not that simple and not easy either.  But there ought to be a theme, "We have a solution and it is workable, we know what doesn't work, an endless cycle of obstruction and allegations, so try this... ."

[formflier]

Any updates?  Hoping things are turning for the better!

FF

[Panshekay]

Thank you everyone. Boy, someone once said going through all this is like trying to out run an avalanche, that is exactly how I feel.  Today is Sat.  Court was supposed to be Wed and Thur.  Let’s add Friday, next Monday and next Friday to that. 

Had a few surprises.  First... .our sons attorney got a call from the judge on Wed morning. I will call her Judge R.  She says she does not want to hear this long case... .and wait for it, she wants to talk to both our S and his W outside of court... .and tells Our S attorney, just tell your client to let W have full custody of their S. ... .of course our Son attorney says no! And then Judge R says I dont want to hear this long case, just tell him to let W have full custody... .she says no, he wont agree to that. So the judge hangs up on our S attorney. S attorney drives  down to the court house then into chambers and judge R, and W attorney, and judge H (who was the first judge before it went to family court)  are in there talking about the case and she just walks in... .Our S attorney says you are not supposed to meet without all attorneys what are you talking about, they all look guilty, so judge R says she is not doing it, Judge H can do it. 

Next surprise. DHS gets up to testify, they state our S is innocent, AND they got a call from my GS school stating on Dec 1 he lost it and started telling everyone that his M was telling him to tell all adults that his dad was touching him, that his M showed him a video of his dad beating his mom with a bat, but it wasn’t his dad in the video and his M told him if he sees his dad that his dad will kill his mom.  No one knew about this... .

GS GAL could not make court so she has a fill in.  Our S had 7 witnesses, plus the Detective who said our S was innocent of all charges and our S asked him if he should take a polygraph test.  Our DIL had ONE witness, a neighbor who she has known for a year and a half. That was it.  No family, no one else.  I testified and the very first question my DIL attorney asked me was... .have you ever been sexually abused by a family member... .I don’t tell the world about this... .my first thought was, is he trying to trick me to see if I’m going to lie.  I said as a matter of fact, yes my father molested me... .then he asks me if I’ve had any other family members sexually abused. I say yes... .he asks who, I tell him and then he asks where our S was during this time. I said in Iraq.  Then he asks me if my S and I ever discussed his W mental health records, I said no (they are protected records that he had to read at his attorneys office) then he yells (never a good thing with me) you mean to tell me that you and your son have never discussed his W mental health records... .and I said very loudly, SIR, I said No, I didn’t need to discuss them, I LIVED it with him for 10 years. That was all he asked me.

The Doctor (very soft spoken man) that our S worked with for 3 years testified and in the end he said  what I can say about _ is he is the best human being I have ever met.  Which made me cry... .what a wonderful thing to say. Everyone did a great job.

Monday his W testifies... .then Friday is the final part. I want to say it’s going well, but we all know things can change. Children Advocacy Center is still fully on his W side, as is the CAC therapist who still feels our son is abusing our Grandson, and our GS attorney also feels that same way. Interestingly enough NONE of those people ever met with our son.  And the therapist who lied in the very beginning?  Our S attorney destroyed him on the witness stand.

One interesting side note. His W uses a ER visit as her psychological evaluation. On the top it says “psychological issues”: None.  So on the stand her attorney asks our S to read the top out loud. He says “ it says ER visit,  This isn’t a psychological evaluation”. Her attorney couldn’t get out of that fast enough. Boom.

I will keep you posted, we will see... .I am hopeful.

[GaGrl]

Sending all positive energy... .

[formflier]

Monday his W testifies... .then Friday is the final part. I want to say it’s going well, but we all know things can change. Children Advocacy Center is still fully on his W side, as is the CAC therapist who still feels our son is abusing our Grandson, and our GS attorney also feels that same way. Interestingly enough NONE of those people ever met with our son.  And the therapist who lied in the very beginning?  Our S attorney destroyed him on the witness stand.
 

I'm likely repeating what your Ls are already thinking about.

There is lots of good stuff that is now part of testimony.  It would be good for the therapist to state their opinion first.  Let's assume they say your son is still the abuser.  Get all of that on the record... first.

Then... .are you aware the young boy said mommy makes me... .xyz... watch and say things.  Get their answer on the record.  Does that change your opinion?  again... on the record.

It will likely be long and excruciating... .but anyone that is "against" your son needs to have an enormous amount of stuff... ."on the record" to contradict them and see if they have a new opinion after these facts.

Hang in there!

It might be wise to offer a settlement prior to Monday, something like your son gets full custody and she gets liberal supervised visitation.  Something you know she won't take... .but it would be good to APPLY PRESSURE before wife's testimony gets started.

This is going well, IMO, however... the reason it all needs to be on the record is so that it can be reviewed by an appellate court... .just in case.

Good Ls play to win and plan for loss.  Hope that makes sense.

FF

[Panshekay]

Thank you FF, unfortunately the CAC therapist says GS 7 is saying “my mom said” as his way of finding HIS voice... .she says these are things that HE is feeling because it’s happening to him.  Have they looked at our S wife’s BF?  No, the alcoholic male neighbor who takes the kids hiking?  No.   The fact that our son passed a polygraph test meant absolutely nothing to her. ... .I must say in her 90 min testimony most of the time the judge (and I) sat rolling our eyes... .she was a typical  granola therapist who works for an abused women’s and children’s clinic, IMO.   The judge asked her why she never met with our son... .she said the rules say you can’t meet with someone who is under investigation... .so our S attorney said, well his W is being investigated for child neglect, and you are meeting with her... .T then stated she didn’t feel there was any concerns with W.  Having suffered sexual abuse from my father intiil 13 years old I know how things work as well... .most people that I know don’t tell... .i was a quiet, shy and voiceless child and young woman... .that’s probably why I fight so hard now for truth and justice. I was 50 before I told my mom... .and that was only because she divorced my dad. I never told my friends, no one. My children were not allowed to be alone with my parents but I never said why for years. I dont know how court works, his W testifies Monday, then on Friday each attorney gets to say what they think, then the judge decides. There have been many last minute miracles, getting the first original Judge is huge!  DHS saying what they did is HUGE... .I am hopeful but I’ve learned to be a realist as I have gotten older... .I used to be rose colored glasses kind of woman, but life has shown me differently. It truly is in Gods hands.

[Panda39]

Been thinking about you all week  

Wow! All I can say is Wow!  Lots of things coming out and DHS coming out on your son's side... .Wow!

Things are sounding positive but you're right it isn't over until the fat lady sings.  

It's gonna be interesting to hear what kind of crazy the ex will bring to the courtroom Monday.  If you were rolling your eyes earlier in the week get ready to see your brain on Monday  




Routing for you and your son,
Panda39

[LegioXX Victrix]

Be prepared for a long term fight with a BPD... .mine lasted 4 years

[Panshekay]

Thank you Panda... .because so many different things have been brought up that are very personal which I didn’t even share here (sick sick sick things she has said about me that our S said on the witness stand) I’m pretty emotional... .Friday I had to walk out of court because I was sobbing. I HATE losing control like that, but also hate that a courtroom is hearing all these things. She was always very jealous that I was close to all our kids and Grandkids.

 Our S SD12 has not lived in their family home for 2 years in Jan.  Her room is exactly how she left it the last time she was here. Our S was always hopeful she would be back, of course that was never really a possibility since she told lies that we both physically hurt her... .He finally gave me the OK to start cleaning out her room.  I’m putting her keepsakes in a box and her CASA will give them to her. It’s almost like a death in a way. We saw her at court the first day... .so many emotions are going on.

 This has been a long long long battle.  4+ year separation, 2+ year divorce process, 14 false allegations against our son once he filed for divorce, the last 4 that he was molesting his son.   What kind of parent shows a 7yo child a video of a man beating his wife with a bat saying this is your dad and this is what happens to me if you go see your dad? I have no words. Just the fact that CAC wants to baby step a relationship with our S and GS?  Why in the heck is my GS even allowed to be with his mother at all?  So let’s go ahead and leave my GS with the monster, so she can alienate him more, and put more false memories in his head.  What is wrong with professionals?  His W is like a wolf in a sheeps clothing.  No one even knows where our GS is being hidden.  I have read enough and spoken to enough people to know this will never be over, or over soon. I know if our S ever does meet someone or has another child that will trigger her all over again. My prayer continues that her world crumbles all around her... .her house of cards made up of lies falls to the ground and she will be seen for what she truly is... .a monster dressed as a daydream.

[40days_in_desert]

Panshekay, I don't know if this is the same with your DIL but I have found that the most challenging aspect of other people seeing the truth when it comes to the lies told by pwBPD is that they are so convincing. My stbx has been successful in many cases with recruiting people to her "side" are the lies that she truly believes to be true. It's easier to believe someone if they have confidence in what they are saying even if they are outrageous.

One example is my ex telling my two oldest daughters that I gave my ex permission to talk to her ex boyfriend (my now replacement) while we were still together. This was told in the same conversation with them that I also didn't "let" her have friends and controlled where she could go and what she could do, etc. She doesn't see the contradiction in those statements in which none are true. How would anyone who won't "let" their spouse have friends be okay with them having any relationship with their ex boyfriend. She later told me the same thing and I would swear that she actually believed that I told her that in the past.

If your DIL has "created" any of these lies and believes them, that could be one reason that she has been successful. Another reason that I have thought about is the number and grandiosity of the lies. Everyone exaggerates some. If someone is telling their "story", others may think, cut that by 20-30% and there's the truth is. If 90% are complete fabrication and you cut that by 20-30%, you still have 60-70% lies in someone's mind.

Don't take my percentages as part of an actual study. They're just for demonstration purpose and my opinion from my experience and a little research. Lastly, many people like to rescue and protect those who are being victimized. Especially children. Some people love drama and encourage those who are creating the drama. Others may be siding with the "victim" just in case they are wrong. Since children are involved, it may be the liability as the issue regarding the school and court officials.

Either way, I'm sorry to hear what your family is going through. I'll pray for positive outcomes this week!

[livednlearned]

Add me to the pocket of the Internet pulling for you and your family.

I'm so sorry for the pain and suffering you've been through, including before any of this even happened.

Lovely to hear the doctor champion your son. 

Sending prayers your way.

 

LnL

[Panda39]

Thank you Panda... .because so many different things have been brought up that are very personal which I didn’t even share here (sick sick sick things she has said about me that our S said on the witness stand) I’m pretty emotional... .Friday I had to walk out of court because I was sobbing. I HATE losing control like that, but also hate that a courtroom is hearing all these things. She was always very jealous that I was close to all our kids and Grandkids.

I'm sorry you had to go through this but it is certainly understandable with all the pressure you have been under and all of the things that have been stirred up.  Don't beat yourself up.   

Our S SD12 has not lived in their family home for 2 years in Jan.  Her room is exactly how she left it the last time she was here. Our S was always hopeful she would be back, of course that was never really a possibility since she told lies that we both physically hurt her... .He finally gave me the OK to start cleaning out her room.  I’m putting her keepsakes in a box and her CASA will give them to her. It’s almost like a death in a way. We saw her at court the first day... .so many emotions are going on.

This is sad, describing it like a death sounds right to me... .its letting go of hope for her which is so sad for a young girl who is a pawn in her mother's sick game.  But for your son and his son it needs to happen, it is heart breaking.

My prayer continues that her world crumbles all around her... .her house of cards made up of lies falls to the ground and she will be seen for what she truly is... .a monster dressed as a daydream.

Karma Amen

[formflier]

 The judge asked her why she never met with our son... .she said the rules say you can’t meet with someone who is under investigation... .so our S attorney said, well his W is being investigated for child neglect, and you are meeting with her... .T then stated she didn’t feel there was any concerns with W.  

Just to confirm, you got all of this, on the record and under oath... correct?

What kind of agency does she work for?

Is there a way to bring her back to the stand?  I would want her written policy manual, procedures manual to be entered into evidence.  Whatever they have that shows their policy of not meeting with people under investigation. 

I don't believe that for a second... .as in I don't believe there is such a policy.  Ts meet with "bad" people all the time that are under investigation or even convicted of various things.  They are medical professionals (in your case... I get more eye rolls are coming from you) and should be able to separate the "bad acts" from the person they are treating or evaluating.

It's preposterous to conduct any kind of investigation based on "assumptions" of what they other side will say... or has.

Legal stuff is a "short game" (for you the next couple days) and a (long game).  I think a court action against this therapist should be considered part of your long game.  Almost certain she has malpractice insurance and almost certain she has no business... .being in this business and participating in ruining other peoples lives.

I'm sure this has cost you a lot of money, perhaps this bad therapist is a pathway to recover some.

   

FF

[Panshekay]

First... .i love you Panda, you have been with us since the start... .thank you for your understanding.

FF, yes it’s all on the record. The T works at the Children’s Advocacy Center... .her thinking is off the wall.  Towards the end she said, well i will have to check with my manager.

She isn’t a new T, been doing this for years. At the end the Judge did say that it probably wasn’t a good idea to continue therapy with our GS, since she is so one sided... .and she agreed!  Well it took a long time for her to get that out, but she did agree at the end.

Today at 3 is court... .day number 4, our Sons wife testifys... .but get this new twist... .her attorney has asked that another witness be allowed to testify. WT... .heck.   Can this be any more weird!  will keep you posted.

[formflier]

  At the end the Judge did say that it probably wasn’t a good idea to continue therapy with our GS, since she is so one sided... .and she agreed!  Well it took a long time for her to get that out, but she did agree at the end.
 

Who agreed to this?  Who is "she"... the therapist?

What was it the T has to ask her manager about?

With regard to the extra person to testify, I would ask your L to push hard about why the last minute, because of the limited time to respond or prepare.

I would also have your L ask that after testimony and after cross examination that you and your legal team be allowed a break to discuss this new witness before the witness is dismissed.  What you want to avoid is having to do all of your "thinking" on your feet (from the L's point of view)

Hang in there.

FF

[Panda39]

First... .i love you Panda, you have been with us since the start... .thank you for your understanding.

Thank you!   I'm glad I can support you, you are doing exactly what I would if this was my son, you're a fighter!

Today at 3 is court... .day number 4, our Sons wife testifys... .but get this new twist... .her attorney has asked that another witness be allowed to testify. WT... .heck.   Can this be any more weird!  will keep you posted.

Curious who the mystery guest was 

Panda39

[Panshekay]

I did post something 2 days ago but my iPad went down and I lost it.  So today is WED and we go back to court today at 1:30, this is Day 6... .DIL got to add 2 witnesses after the fact.  Her attorney asked for one, and then got another on the phone. I have no words to explain that. The judge said well Mr Blank  had 6 or 7 witnesses, sons attorney objected,  judge over ruled it. Because of that though our son gets to testify again.

Today our S attorney gets to cross examine. My DIL literally can’t answer any questions, she looked to our S for dates, ya, like he was going to tell her,  and her attorney pretty much answered everything... .example.  So why didn’t you leave your husband?   She says, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, let me thinK, ah, ah, ah... .then her attorney says, isnt it because he threatened to beat you., then she says, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah,  yes. And before anyone asks, yes our S attorney says your honor he is leading his client. 2 freaking ours yesterday this is how it went.  The judge says he knows he is leading the witness.

So we will see what today brings.  The judge did ask that none of the attorneys do a rebuttal at then end... .(his mind is made up I’m sure) but I watched DIL attorney and GS attorney and they both laughed and said to each other, that’s not happening. 

It’s sickening to watch. Yesterday there were 2 surprise tapes from DHS, our S attorney told out S he had to be prepared... .but the judge decided to listen to them in his chambers, our son had to listen to them on a headset. He sat there crying. He is too upset to talk about what’s on them other than to say that his W and kids are saying bad things and she is coaching them. If that doesn’t do it for the judge then we have more of a broken system than I thought.

Please pray for us. Thank you.

[formflier]

Please pray for us. Thank you.

Will be praying. 

You are getting lots of stuff on the record.  That is good.  Take big walks... .lots of deep breathing.

It's not about the justice system being broken or not.  It's the system we have... .I'm  cautiously optimistic in your case, although I would caution you that things are rarely "over". 

That goes both ways. 

I'm glad she has been seen in action... .

FF

[livednlearned]

He is too upset to talk about what’s on them other than to say that his W and kids are saying bad things and she is coaching them.

Do you mean that it's clear on the tapes that she is coaching them?

I sure hope so.

Do you get the sense the judge sees what is happening?

[ForeverDad]

My lawyer said it was okay for me to refer to my journals to 'refresh' my memory regarding dates and other details.  (And no, my journals - which were nearly 10 years of 52 week-per-page diaries - stayed confidential and were never entered as evidence.)  Predictably, son's ex never documented anything so there was nothing to refer to.

However, you did get the change to the other judge - which ought to be a good thing?

[Panda39]

We're all right here with you! 

Panda39

[Panshekay]

There have been many good things... .the change in getting the original judge back
... .HUGE, A different GAL, but she works with the original one so she has sided with her.

 Today was interesting, she said she had no issues in her first 2 marriages.  Haha.  Our son has an excellent memory AND FoeverDad, he had all their emails from when they first met, where she states what had happened in previous marriages, such as abuse etc. our son testified today that she had told him in her first marriage she was kept in the basement and had to make carrot juice and found out she was going to be taken and traded into a sex ring... .but she convinced her first husband to take her someplace in a car so she punched him in the nose and broke it, then escaped. She should have been a writer instead of a mother.

DIL said crap about the CASA lady, said she was unprofessional and had to tell her supervisor how bad she was as a CASA (this CASA women was amazing, and saw  DIL for what she truly was) She continued to rag on me, saying how hard I was to get along with and how no one liked me. That I was very controlling and was very mean to her daughter and thats why she called the police on me for physically hurting her daughter. After that our son got to testify again and said exactly what had happened. 

Judge wants to meet with GS tomorrow, he would prefer not to have attorneys be in on it, but if one says yes, then they all meet with him.  I pray it’s only the judge, I pray that our GS is strong and truthful.

So tomorrow, day 7... .and again ForeverDad you are right, the judge has until the 29th to decide. We are hoping our son gets to spend time with i our GS. So here it is 4 plus years, coming to an end... .but we all know it’s not over, it will never be over. I will say that if the judge hasn’t seen how mentally unstable she is by now then something is wrong.   Prayers prayers prayers... .

[ForeverDad]

So Dec 29 is the last weekday of the year.  While I do think there is some pressure for judges to close out lingering cases by year-end, they also have the option to take maybe 30-60 days to issue a written decision.  That's what happened in 2013 when I spent two days in mid-October at trial seeking majority time.  The court stated a written decision would be issued later.  My local Rules said it could take up to 60 days which would have been mid-December.  Came and went.  Finally on December 30 the decision was issued.  I figured one of two possibilities, or both.  One was that the magistrate wanted to look better by closing the case before end of year.  The other was that the magistrate saw winter holidays were approaching and didn't want to stir things up just before the holidays.

There's a lot of allegations but the good thing is that there's a lot of solid rebuttal.

That the judge wants to see the child in an in camera appearance.  Probably there is no direct questioning or grilling, but the court does want to get a sense of where the child is overall with respect to each of his parents.

However, in my case I noticed that my court just so happened  to be so very cooperative to schedule my son's in camera visit with the magistrate and GAL on my parenting time. So he knew he was in my care and would return to my care afterward.  In the decision later the magistrate noted that my son, then age 11, was more comfortable when I was the topic of discussion.  He looked away when discussing Mother but visibly relaxed when discussing Father.

Perhaps your son's lawyer should request that there be two in camera interviews so that one of them would be during Father's parenting time.  Grandson ought to be more relaxed if he knew when he walked out that his Dad would be there for him.  (Also, that would give Father a visit during the holidays which I presume is still prohibited.)

Of course, I don't know how the court would handle such interviews.  In my case I drove him to court and then GAL accompanied him with the magistrate.  I do know from previous interviews with CPS that the agency viewed school as a neutral ground.  I was worried school wasn't neutral enough since my ex had driven him to school and later picked him up from school.  Fortunately CPS did close that case. That's why I suggested above that the judge may need to see the child during Dad's parenting time too in order to determine whether there was a difference between household environments or even indication of improper parental coaching.

[takingandsending]

Prayers and loving support for you and your son and grandson Panshekay. I hope the judge can keep GS at ease enough to at least show the truth even if he doesn't say it.

And seriously, basement imprisonment + carrot juice + sex ring = crazy, nine times out of nine and a half. Did your S actually have an e-mail with that in it? Whatever did he think when he heard her say stuff like that? I know I missed or overlooked plenty of crazy from my xw when I was with her. Cringe worthy stuff, too.

[Panshekay]

Excellent advice FD... .I dont know what they think they are going to get... .he has now been with mom 8 weeks... .she has painted dad dangerous... .what do they think they are going to get out of him?  GAL also says my GS never wants to see his dad again. It’s truly in Gods hands... .there isn’t one thing I can do. The judge seems to be a kind man and fair. Another thing I am shocked at is our son has to pay child support AND maybe spousal support, I guess you CAN be unfaithful and get spousal support. She was asked in court what was the longest job she had held in her life. She is 35, and the longest job is 18 months. WOW. 

[Panshekay]

Takingandsending you made me laugh, thank you... .all she needed to add was Elvis rescued her on his motorcycle dead playing “you ain't nothin but a hound dog”.

I think he may have believed it. What’s funny is that seems to be a common theme for these type of people. My own father ended up with a D BPD who took all his money, she had a very similar story, basement, loaded gun to her head for 2 months on and on... .she actually took my dad for about 3 to 400,000 dollars... .now that’s some Karma!