Situation Escalated: CPS Called

[Ventak]

I DO think that recordings are crucial.  I used an app on my phone that could directly upload to google drive (the cloud).  What do DO NOT want is these recording tied to a physical thing that can be destroyed/tossed/taken.

I second this.  My BPDw smashed my phone and I had to get the video of her 20 minute rage off the cloud.  Turns out that in my state recording without permission isn't legal... but the judge didn't stop me from showing it and it helped my W understand what she had done, at least temporarily, and I think was helpful in my RO hearing.

[Guts42]

Indeed.
Luckily my state is a single party consent.
Backed up on my phone, cloud, and a backup drive on my computer using a pw she can't get to.

I really want this to be an opportunity for us to go forward together.  I have my doubts she will.  I think once she hears CPS she'll shutdown.

But maybe somewhere in there she realize this is a wake up call and a chance for us both to find a way to make things work.

I've been pretty set on "being done" but here at what feels like the edge I want to know I tried everything.  I really do love her... but i know my vision is a bit clouded right now. I'm still trying to "save" her.

[Notwendy]

I'm still trying to "save" her.

Yes, you do and this is something to realize, and if it's your choice, realize that too.

CPS may see things differently. One thing I noticed is the tendency to minimize BPD behavior - if it has been your "normal" growing up. I didn't really see my mother as abusive until much later. I also tolerated it a lot more than other people did, because it was "normal" and minimized by my own parents. My mother blamed me for all the issues between us, and for a long time, I believed her. I thought if I only was good enough, my parents would be happy with me.

Because there wasn't physical abuse, I didn't recognize the behaviors as abusive.  Verbal and emotional abuse was something I had learned to tolerate and minimize. The other confusing part is that abusive people aren't abusive all the time. They can be nice and sweet at times and have wonderful qualities as well, but that doesn't change the impact of the abuse. However, without proof due to physical abuse, and with the effort to protect my mother by hiding her behavior, no adult would guess it happened.

[Guts42]

The Aunt had what I think is a good idea.  Have the agent call my W.
I've been trying to make this easier on her and by extension me.
Provided she can refrain from letting her know we've spoken I think this might be a good way to go...?

[GaGrl]

The Aunt had what I think is a good idea.  Have the agent call my W.
I've been trying to make this easier on her and by extension me.
Provided she can refrain from letting her know we've spoken I think this might be a good way to go...?

Agree. Can you clear that with the agent?

Yes, you are stepping too far into the CPS arena in an attempt to make this "easier." The situation passed " easy" a long time ago.

Plus, I'm sure the agent has had far more experience in parents'  initial strong reactions to a CPS report/investigation.

[I Am Redeemed]

My guess is that CPS will most definitely be in contact with your wife, but that they are gathering information first. You're the one who came to the therapist with concerns and recorded proof, so that's why you were contacted first.

I would ask the CPS agent if and when they plan to contact your wife, because I believe that is their intention.

They probably want to get a bigger picture on what's going on in your house before they do that.

Be prepared for your wife to put two and two together and deduce that the therapist called...then paint the therapist black...and possibly go to work on manipulating both you and the kids into protecting her to get them off her case.

She probably doesn't know that there's recorded evidence, and they may or may not tell her.

She's probably going to deny and minimize her behavior and expect you and the kids to back her up. Victim: her. Persecutor: CPS/person who reported. Rescuer: you, and probably the children.

[formflier]

Remind me again what the recording shows/proves?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Your inclination was to inform your spouse, cushion the news in advance.  That strategy is gone and out the door.  Beware of your 'nice' inclinations.  Be aware that sharing TMI (too much information) can sabotage you and the professionals' efforts.  Follow the professionals' guidance.

A perspective I learned here years ago explains why you can't reason with your spouse.  BPD is a dysfunction of a person's ability to handle close relationships, especially over time.  People she meets casually or deals with now and then may notice something off, BPS is most evident with those closest to the person.  And she can't truly listen to you due to all the baggage of the past relationship.

In the years past most of this misbehavior was somewhat subdued and hidden behind the home's doors.  Aunt knows but few others.  It's different now, it's ramped up.  The kids need more than you and therapists.  Accept that help.

Expect extinction bursts, demands both for you to keep it all private and for you to get blamed.

[Guts42]

I know.  You're right.
I was still trying to protect her from this.

The plan is to contact the agent ask for their opinion on how they'd like to proceed.  If they want to contact my wife then that's fine.  If they'd prefer to do some more intel through me, the kids, and the Aunt then that's fine too.

I've been saying for weeks that all of this is above my pay grade.  Now that the help is here I need to roll with it not try to direct it.

[mart555]

I know.  You're right.
I was still trying to protect her from this.

I wouldn't inform her of any of this. 

As I wrote before: she would NOT hesitate to throw you under the bus.  You'll see, she will likely do it.  It's a good thing that CPS is meeting with you and the kids first because believe me, your wife will them them a waaaaaaaaay different story, and some will believe your wife. 

Definitely keep covering your ass, record and document.  That means having your phone record audio if you talk to your wife, just in case.  Many have ended up in jail due to false accusation from the ex. 

Chances are your wife will spiral down, be careful of not sinking with her while trying to save her.  I almost did. Then I got out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and woke up to save the kids.  I still have a difficult time with the fact that I was so naive at first, wanting to save everyone.  It's impossible. 

Be careful, but from what I see you are on the right track and have some help.  It's still a long road however. 

[Guts42]

Absolutely, this is between me, the Aunt, and the agent.  My W has no idea... which is killing me but I know it's best she doesn't know right now.

So now the debate is between staying the course and meeting the agent with just me and the kids (at the Aunts house) or disavowing any knowledge and basically a reset by having the agent call my W as if it were the first contact.

[formflier]

Rather than trying to "control" the situation, I recommend you "embrace" it...follow the lead of the professionals involved.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

I texted the agent asking her to call me Monday morning.  I'll explain that I'd rather follow her lead.

[formflier]

Don't be shocked if the call back waits until Tuesday (lots of govt agencies) "celebrate" the 4th on Monday with a day off.

You've got this.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

Thanks FF.

Last I chatted the agent indicated she was working Monday.

More than anything I'm trying to navigate through some thick FOG!
She's been, for the most part, absolutely wonderful, with just a few pot shots at me, ever since my trip was "canceled."
The last few days have even been near idyllic.

[kells76]

The last few days have even been near idyllic.

I wonder if that's also hard for you, in a way.

It's OK to keep yourself on an even emotional keel, no matter what your pwBPD is doing.  Sometimes we have to learn to unhitch our wagon from their horse, as it were... their "emotional horse" veers from 0 to 10 to 0 really, really quickly... and that's not good for our wagon. We have to be the stable ones, keeping ourselves at 4, 5, 6, etc, regardless of whether they are a 0 or a 10. It's tempting to "hitch on" to them, and let their emotions guide our decisions. Instead, we can do the different work of keeping level-headed and not making decisions based on the intensity of their emotions.

I feel sadness for you that it is so nice now, and that it can't be so nice for your family all the time. I know you wanted peace, love, and calm for your family.

Glad your agent is working tomorrow. I can't imagine you want to drag this out.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

[GaGrl]

This is when you need to anchor yourself as the family's Emotional Leader.

My husband spent 33 years being his marriage, the family, leader. He was almost depleted before we married and he then let go of his ex's BPD/NPD neediness and demands.I

Separate your emotions. Separate your personal responsibility for her actions.

[ForeverDad]

Do not be surprised if/when your spouse senses a change and demands to know what's up.  As oblivious as she is to your wishes and concerns, she is an expert manipulator and like many disordered controllers can sense the slightest change of a persons behavior.  Just saying... don't let her catch you off guard.  If she does, gift yourself time to ponder the situation and determine the best — or least bad — response.

[Guts42]

Thanks everyone, appreciate the support (as always!) from this community.

Fighting some FOG at the moment.

Feeling specifically guilty about calling the DV hotline.  I keep catching myself (especially in light of recent behavior) thinking that it really isn't "that bad" and that I'm over reacting to everything.  Going back through that mega thread I started that chronicled my now defunct trip...

Is it normal to feel guilty about this?  The agent is aware I've called the DV line and am awaiting to be contacted from a local resource group.  Starting to wonder if the resource group is who called CPS in the first after my initial contact with them?

I wonder if that's also hard for you, in a way.

Very.  I feel like a traitor.  Like I'm over reacting and am ruining everything.
But then I have these recordings, my journal, and the forum entries here...

My Dad has been a wonderful resource as well.  I wanted to share his words- maybe they'll help someone in a similar situation.

"Your wife is sick.  If she was throwing up blood and refused to at least go to urgent care what would you do?  Instead of blood it's words.  Her behavior isn't normal, fair, or healthy to anyone.  Would you let her continue throwing up blood or would you call 911?

"Whether she means to do this or not doesn't matter.  Her actions are either intentionally spiteful which makes her a terrible partner, or she's out of control, unaware of what she's doing, and she needs help beyond what you can do.  That isn't your fault.  You can't fix this.  The best thing you can do is call for help.  Help is on the way, let them do their job."

[mart555]

Feeling specifically guilty about calling the DV hotline.  I keep catching myself (especially in light of recent behavior) thinking that it really isn't "that bad" and that I'm over reacting to everything.  ...
Is it normal to feel guilty about this? 

Totally normal. And that's how they keep most people in.  Just keep pushing. That FOG will eventually dissipate.   If she did not want you to call the DV line she wouldn't have been abusive.  Time for her to face her actions.  Note that I'm not saying that in a "vengeance" kind of way, more of a "She is responsible for her actions".  You need to do whatever will help your case (be assertive and factual, focus on the evidence) because it's a long road.

 

[I Am Redeemed]

Some wise words from your dad.

It is normal to second guess the experiences you are having. The behaviors are so confusing. Some of us who tend to take on responsibility for other people's feelings start to feel guilty when it becomes clear that our family members may be about to face natural consequences of their actions. We want to save them from that because we don't want them to suffer and we feel responsible for their suffering.

I think it is most likely that the therapist, as a mandated reporter, called CPS after hearing the evidence of your wife's behavior.

This therapist clearly told you this was abuse.

You are used to your wife minimizing her own behavior, justifying it, and you have been caught up in dysfunction that may have been familiar to you.

Have you heard of the Adverse Childhood Experiences assessment?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280739.0

ACES have been linked to long-term mental and physical health issues, and the impact of them persists into adulthood.

When it comes to abusive behavior that your children may be exposed to...it's better to reach out for help and let the professionals tell you if you are overreacting rather than convince yourself it's nothing and keep the status quo of your family system.

Being the one to disrupt the family patterns is hard. It's uncomfortable. It feels strange. It's also necessary for protecting yourself and your family from long term emotional and mental effects.

Remember that your wife's behavior is the reason CPS was called. Someone thought it was concerning enough to get professionals involved. Someone besides you.

What did the DV hotline tell you? Did they refer you to a local resource because you were "overreacting"?

[Notwendy]

Guts, it is good you are aware of your feelings. Read my post about growing up with this kind of feeling. When I speak the truth about my mother, I also feel as if I am "betraying her" and also breaking a family rule and feel fearful if I do.

Your father's words sound accurate and not like the voice of someone who is also in FOG.

Although it feels like a betrayal emotionally to call for help (due to how you may have been raised) , the tendency to "protect" and deny the need for help actually keeps your family from getting help and keeps your wife from getting help. By calling for help, you acted on behalf of your children.

[Skip]

The elephant in the room is betrayal.

"Whether she means to do this or not doesn't matter.  Her actions are either intentionally spiteful which makes her a terrible partner, or she's out of control, unaware of what she's doing, and she needs help beyond what you can do.  That isn't your fault.  You can't fix this.  The best thing you can do is call for help.  Help is on the way, let them do their job."

I know you feel like a traitor. Those are your feelings.

Her feelings are going to be that you broke a trust and betrayed her. If she has BPD traits, that is going to be a very big deal for a long time... maybe even a breaking point.

I mentioned it earlier - "turning in the family" for help is a lot better way to position this. I think you need to read her in for damage control.

[formflier]

Here feeling are going to be that you broke a trust and  betrayed her. If she has BPD traits, that is going to be a big deal for a long time.

 

I can vouch for this. 

Our CPS experience rarely comes up.  When it does it almost always is when she wants to say something about me "betraying" her. 

Maybe once or twice has she ever been able to acknowledge that anything or something good came out of this experience.

Best,

FF

[summerholiday]

I have extensive experience with Child Protective Services and, frankly, I don't trust them.

They tried to take away our newborn daughter from the hospital because of crazy stuff my partner with BPD said in therapy sessions during the pregnancy. Our daughter was temporarily removed and placed with extended family until we went to an emergency court hearing and demonstrated that at least one capable adult (me) would always be present.

Nothing is ever "unofficial". They are always gathering evidence, which increases their power and diminishes the power of the parents. Have you ever talked to them when they haven't had a pen and paper on hand?

You need to decide what outcome is ideal. If it's the two biological parents raising the kids, then CPS can't really help you. They don't have a cure for BPD. Interacting with them runs the risk that the kids will be taken away.

If you want full custody, turning on the parent with BPD by giving negative info to CPS officers might help. Though you risk being implicated yourself in a bad parenting situation.

If you raising your own kids in your own way is a bad outcome, then welcome CPS into your home and tell them everything.

I guess what I'm saying is that cooperating with CPS acts to transfer power away from the parents and towards CPS. Personally, I'm unwilling to do that ever again.

Your approach should depend on how well you are coping, if you can control the other parent and, ultimately, if you think the children would be best served by outside intervention. This is by people who don't really understand the situation and are obliged to err on the side of protecting children.

[formflier]

Hey SummerHoliday,

Sounds like a horrible experience with CPS.

What was the advice from your family law attorney prior to giving birth?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think outcome depends on a lot of factors, including the resiliency of the child.

Having one engaged and loving parent has a positive impact.

With a newborn though, it makes sense to take no chances. A frustrated parent may intend no harm but shaking a baby or harming them can have long term permanent damage. Yes, it was upsetting for CPS to take custody but they did return the child when it was clear to them there would be one capable parent present.

But the big question- the capable parent may also be the one who is capable of holding a job and so must have child care. Who is taking care of the child while the parent is at work?

And yes, CPS is biased towards protecting the child. I will also propose that the romantic partner may be biased towards protecting the feelings of their partner. When there are two capable parents, there's no conflict of interest towards the best interest of the child, but if a parent is disordered, and the relationship being what it is, there could be.

Sometimes it becomes a question of survival for the family. Kids need basics like food and shelter and if the capable parent needs to provide this, then they need to leave at some time and try to minimize the impact of the other parent. This is a tough situation to navigate.

In many cases, parents don't choose to contact CPS- they are reported. At this point cooperating with them is about the only choice. However, I am still in favor of shedding light onto the BPD behaviors rather than hiding them which enables them.

[mart555]

However, I am still in favor of shedding light onto the BPD behaviors rather than hiding them which enables them.

Exactly.  Be factual, focus on evidence, and be assertive.  Provide good examples (ie: "She hit me while the kids were in the same room" or "She told the kids that she would rather die than <xxx>"). Kids shouldn't be exposed to stuff like this, so a big thumbs up to all of you who acted early or at least are trying to.

[worriedStepmom]

Gus, I am sending you lots of hugs.    It sounds like it has been a very difficult last few weeks.

Here are the good things I see in your situation
--You have good friends who truly care about you
--You have the aunt who truly cares about you and your kids

These people have independently identified that you are being abused. 
So has the domestic violence hotline counselor. 
So have the therapists involved.

Remember this when you start to second-guess yourself.  The gaslighting makes it hard to question your own judgement...but ALL of these people who don't talk to each other are convinced that something is seriously wrong in your family environment.  If you don't trust yourself, can you trust them?

I know you are feeling guilty.  It's really, really hard to get out of the mindset of protecting your spouse.  You've been trained to do that for so long - and so have the kids.

Your job, as a parent, is to protect your kids.  Not your spouse.  That took my H and I a long time to fully process. It's been 3 years since we actively switched our focus to SD14, and she's a different kid now.  It is amazing to see the difference now that she feels safe enough to let her true personality out.  It is SO HARD to fight through the fog.  Every decision we make it through the lens of "in the long run, is this best for SD?"

This means that you may have to override your W in terms of medical issues.  If you feel strongly that a kid needs to go to urgent care and W disagrees...TAKE KID TO URGENT CARE.  If W is alone with kid and then kid gets suddenly ill...TAKE KID TO URGENT CARE.  There are so many red flags in that last situation you described.

My SD's uBPDmom worked for CPS, and I've heard enough stories that I don't have high hopes that this "intervention" will actually be helpful for "fixing" your family.  It *may* be helpful for getting evidence to give you custody of your kids, or it could be a complete clusterf***.  I'm glad you reached out to a lawyer to get some advice.

We are rooting for you.

[Skip]

Exactly.  Be factual, focus on evidence, and be assertive.  Provide good examples (ie: "She hit me while the kids were in the same room" or "She told the kids that she would rather die than <xxx>").

Just a general statement. How we react in marriage counseling, CPS investigation, or divorce/custody battle, are very different as these are very different processes with very different goals.

In marriage counseling, it's about finding solutions, mending fences - its not about being right. In a CPS investigation is about removing kids from toxic homes (not necessarily toxic parents). For you and your wife, it is about not having the children taken away by the state. CPS doesn't fix domestic problems. In a custody battle, its about finding a non toxic landing place for the children - for you its about not having the children unfairly taken away by the ex. - not justice.

I think someone suggested that having an attorney in your CPS jurisdiction the best person to advise you on not losing the children.  I think your marriage counselor is the best to advise you on how to not have thing s get worse because of the CPS investigation.

Your Dad's advice is spot on. The practical aspect of how you deal with it, is a whole other topic. Be careful not to confuse the two as being the same.