My kids are being screwed up

[Depression = 72% of members]

This is my first time here and my first time talking to "anyone" about this directly.  I'm not sure if I picked the right category for the post -- none of them (wanting to repair, wanting to leave, divorcing, etc) fit me right now.  I don't even know where I'm at right now.

I've been married 12+ years now.  Only had one other relationship prior to that, and subsequent to that I figured out she had been BPD.  Having grown up in a house where my dad was angry all the time, I swore I wouldn't have a house with anger when I grew up.  My past experience with BPDs (I knew others outside that relationship) made me realize that was absolutely NOT who or what I wanted to be in relationship with.  The prior girl was a more classic and petulant form of BPD.  I didn't know about the other subtypes.  I chose my wife in part because she was very much the opposite of the traits in the BPD-ex, seemingly at least on the surface.  Very loving.  Quiet.  Less high-strung.  She even recognized some BPD-like traits in her mom and sister (although I don't think she recognized it as that).  I thought her awareness of those traits in others and the problems they cause along with her seemingly quiet, caring presentation meant she was not that.

I was wrong.  Although she presents differently, there's little question to me she has a form of BPD.  The angry outbursts were the first clues amond the first and most prevalent clues.  She really fell apart with COVID -- threatening to cut herself, actually cutting herself, screaming at me and the kids. Crying.  Telling me she doesn't know who she is.  Disappearing into her own bedroom as soon as she can each night to avoid us.  Then maybe being really sorry for it all and loving the next day.  And then doing it all over again.  It's not quite as bad as the worst moments lately, but it's still pretty bad.  I've held stong for a long time, but the past few weeks have broken me.  Hurtful criticisms directed right at me seemingly out of nowhere.  And then 5 minutes later she acts like nothing happened.  Screaming at the kids again when at their very worst, they are just being typical kids.  My kids are actually pretty f-ing good kids.  They don't deserve this, and her anger is SO disproportionate to what mistakes they might make.

Last week, my youngest son (10) came crying to me.  Telling me he's just so confused.  He doesn't know why mommy gets so mad.  Tell me about it -- I feel that same way.  And I have some understanding of what BPD is.  This poor kid must feel a billion times worse than me not being able to make sense of it.  He's really gotten into reading this past year, which I thought was great.  But he opened up and told me that the reason he reads so much is because it gets him away from this.  It's quiet.  It won't upset mommy.

Last night, my older son (12) had a crying talk, too (she wasn't home).  He says he feels bad about himself and he "doesn't know what to do."  By this, I think he means he feels like he's getting yelled at no matter what he does -- make a mistake, get yelled at.  Do the right thing -- get yelled at.  He's right.  I wouldn't (I don't) know what to do either. 

And on top of it all, I'm sure I'm making matters worse for my kids.  I'm so apprehensive about setting her off that I'm finding myself being extra hard on my kids trying to stop them from doing ANYTHING that might possibly set her off.  So I'm sure I'm not using the best tones with them at times, I'm telling them to often stop...stop, just being kids.  That isn't right.  They don't deserve that.  They shouldn't be scolded for being kids.  And they shouldn't be prevented from being kids just because I'm afraid of their mom's reaction. 

Can anyone relate?  I'm trying to be strong and be there for my kids.  But this is starting to crush in on my own self-worth, and when I struggle to deal with my own hurt around this I just end up making things even harder on my kids.  Any advice is appreciated.

[DidntWantThis]

This is my first time here and my first time talking to "anyone" about this directly.  I'm not sure if I picked the right category for the post -- none of them (wanting to repair, wanting to leave, divorcing, etc) fit me right now.  I don't even know where I'm at right now.

I've been married 12+ years now.  Only had one other relationship prior to that, and subsequent to that I figured out she had been BPD.  Having grown up in a house where my dad was angry all the time, I swore I wouldn't have a house with anger when I grew up.  My past experience with BPDs (I knew others outside that relationship) made me realize that was absolutely NOT who or what I wanted to be in relationship with.  The prior girl was a more classic and petulant form of BPD.  I didn't know about the other subtypes.  I chose my wife in part because she was very much the opposite of the traits in the BPD-ex, seemingly at least on the surface.  Very loving.  Quiet.  Less high-strung.  She even recognized some BPD-like traits in her mom and sister (although I don't think she recognized it as that).  I thought her awareness of those traits in others and the problems they cause along with her seemingly quiet, caring presentation meant she was not that.

I was wrong.  Although she presents differently, there's little question to me she has a form of BPD.  The angry outbursts were the first clues amond the first and most prevalent clues.  She really fell apart with COVID -- threatening to cut herself, actually cutting herself, screaming at me and the kids. Crying.  Telling me she doesn't know who she is.  Disappearing into her own bedroom as soon as she can each night to avoid us.  Then maybe being really sorry for it all and loving the next day.  And then doing it all over again.  It's not quite as bad as the worst moments lately, but it's still pretty bad.  I've held stong for a long time, but the past few weeks have broken me.  Hurtful criticisms directed right at me seemingly out of nowhere.  And then 5 minutes later she acts like nothing happened.  Screaming at the kids again when at their very worst, they are just being typical kids.  My kids are actually pretty f-ing good kids.  They don't deserve this, and her anger is SO disproportionate to what mistakes they might make.

Last week, my youngest son (10) came crying to me.  Telling me he's just so confused.  He doesn't know why mommy gets so mad.  Tell me about it -- I feel that same way.  And I have some understanding of what BPD is.  This poor kid must feel a billion times worse than me not being able to make sense of it.  He's really gotten into reading this past year, which I thought was great.  But he opened up and told me that the reason he reads so much is because it gets him away from this.  It's quiet.  It won't upset mommy.

Last night, my older son (12) had a crying talk, too (she wasn't home).  He says he feels bad about himself and he "doesn't know what to do."  By this, I think he means he feels like he's getting yelled at no matter what he does -- make a mistake, get yelled at.  Do the right thing -- get yelled at.  He's right.  I wouldn't (I don't) know what to do either. 

And on top of it all, I'm sure I'm making matters worse for my kids.  I'm so apprehensive about setting her off that I'm finding myself being extra hard on my kids trying to stop them from doing ANYTHING that might possibly set her off.  So I'm sure I'm not using the best tones with them at times, I'm telling them to often stop...stop, just being kids.  That isn't right.  They don't deserve that.  They shouldn't be scolded for being kids.  And they shouldn't be prevented from being kids just because I'm afraid of their mom's reaction. 

Can anyone relate?  I'm trying to be strong and be there for my kids.  But this is starting to crush in on my own self-worth, and when I struggle to deal with my own hurt around this I just end up making things even harder on my kids.  Any advice is appreciated.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[olafinski]

Hi!
I can totally relate.
At this moment i can not go deeper because my uBPD wife is next to me but I just wanted to say that you are not alone.
Will expand when I am alone.

[kells76]

Yes, we can relate, DidntWantThis. So glad you had the courage to reach out to us for support.

You won't be alone here with your experience -- sounds like you tried so, so hard to avoid a relationship with a person with a personality disorder (pwPD), and yet, here you are, and so many of the signs are right in front of you.

And it's harder because your kids are being impacted deeply. You see it happening, and you want the irrational outbursts towards them to stop, yet so far what you've tried (having the kids stop being kids), you know isn't healthy.

DidntWantThis, do you have any other kids, or just your 10 and 12 year old sons (S10 & S12)?

Were the outbursts/signs still there before covid, and just less intense or less frequent? Or was it pretty much "normal" before covid and that's where things really went south? Did she show the signs when you got married, or did it develop more gradually over time?

You're right that your kids don't deserve to be treated that way. I'm glad you are able to see it. I know it must be painful to see your wife interact with the boys so hurtfully. Like your name says, you didn't want this for you marriage or family, and I'm so sorry it's come to this.

Do you have a counselor or therapist at all? When we navigate relationships with pwBPD, having a robust support system is critical. Empathetic friends plus this group plus professional help has gotten me through a lot, and it's still difficult.

DWT, one positive thing I see in your situation is that your boys are open with you and seem to be asking for help. Finding a way to get them into counseling will also be critical. Whether your wife undermines that or supports it probably depends on how it's presented to her plus her "flavor" of BPD. As you get closer to getting professional help for your sons, we can walk with you here to help make it happen.

You're in a dark place right now, and maybe it feels like rock bottom. You're reaching out and up for help. We're here for you; post whenever and about whatever you need.

Looking forward to hearing back from you;

kells76

[Selfishsally]

Oh yes! Married 11 years and my boys are 5 and under a year old.  I am constantly trying to keep them well behaved or quiet so as not to disrupt daddy. Also keeping the messes to a minimum when he is around as that can be a big stressor for him.
I would often feel like my patience would be thin with them due to H being impatient with me! I'm 2 weeks out NC and I already feel like such a better parent!
I think the best thing we can do for our kids is to let them know they are not at fault and to give them a place to talk and express their feelings freely. It sounds like you are doing that!
It of course is going to be more frustrating for you! But, atleast you can vent here and we all understand and know you are doing your best!
Also, like kells76 said getting your own therapist is very beneficial! Good luck!

[Couper]

He's really gotten into reading this past year, which I thought was great.  But he opened up and told me that the reason he reads so much is because it gets him away from this.  It's quiet.  It won't upset mommy.

So much of what you wrote is identical to my situation.  This part in particular really stood out to me and you have caused me to see part of my own experience from an angle I never before considered.

My son is a voracious reader and has been since early on.  When he needs to explain something verbally or write a report, it doesn't come out particularly fluid which I've always thought was odd considering how much reading he does.  On the other side, something we have particular trouble with at home is math.  My uBPDw homeschools him and is his "teacher".  She is a licensed teacher, didn't work as one for long for some reason, and if she practiced in a school what she does at home, she would be fired for abuse.  Some of the others here wisely pointed out that the root of his math trouble may not so much be the subject itself as it is his mother's abusive stance toward his shortcomings and when he starts to melt into a crying fit it's not so much for lack of understanding the subject as it is the pending repercussions from his mother.

The common thread -- reading, Legos, educational games on the computer, drawing, t.v. -- all things he will sit and do alone (or with his sister) for long periods of time in peace and quiet.  When it comes to things that involve his mother blowing up (including things beyond math)... those are all his least favorite.  On the surface he loves his mom, but deep down below maybe it's that he doesn't love everything she does and is subconsciously avoiding it by immersing himself in these quiet tasks.  I never made the connection myself until now.

Does your son have other interests to which he retreats?
 

[Couper]

The angry outbursts were the first clues amond the first and most prevalent clues.  She really fell apart with COVID -- ...
Hurtful criticisms directed right at me seemingly out of nowhere.  And then 5 minutes later she acts like nothing happened.  Screaming at the kids again when at their very worst, they are just being typical kids.  My kids are actually pretty f-ing good kids.  They don't deserve this, and her anger is SO disproportionate to what mistakes they might make.

This too.  I started journaling my uBPDw's episodes a few years before Covid (and there was plenty to record), but everything throughout the whole year day-in day-out in 2020 was consistently bad.  My steady hand and reassurances that everything would work out were rejected outright.  In turn she charmed up conspiracy theories like they were truth.  No matter how many times the conspiracies and prophecies were proven to be bunk simply by not ever coming to pass, she was already in search of the next one.  Raging and looking at me with crazy eyes saying, "I can't trust you" yet time and time again she could put all of her trust in unknown people with unknown agendas spouting garbage.  They could lead her down a rabbit hole, fail her, and still be on a pedestal while she treated me like the enemy... and lived under my roof, and ate my food, and spent my money. 

She can discard every ounce of her dignity and feel no shame for having done so.  She has always been full of this odd combination of hate and self-loathing such that she can take it out on the kids (mine are in the pretty f-ing good category, too) say she feels bad about it, then justify it with a "but" and never take deep personal responsibility for anything that she does.  In fact, she blames me (or whoever in the world around her) for her negative actions.  She is justified in everything he does no matter how perverted or far-fetched that justification is.

At this point I'm at a bit of a later stage of this than you are (not that I'm recommending you take the same path).  The criticisms aren't hurtful anymore.  Disappointing, but not personally hurtful.  The being judged guilty of things that never actually happened because, "It's what you would have done if you had the choice" are what they are.  I stand back and look at her like the crazy bag lady on the street corner wearing a tin foil hat (forgot that one -- 5G was going to wipe us all out... until it didn't).  We now live in a world where what's wrong is right and what's right is wrong and I use that to pick from the least-worst list of options I have available to me depending on the specific situation. 

You are correct -- your children, and you, "don't deserve" what is being handed out.  So take care of yourself and them as best you can.  If you don't take care of yourself first, there won't be anyone there to take care of any of you.

 

[DidntWantThis]

Thanks for everyone's support.

Kells76 -- They are my only 2 kids.  Most of her signs were there well before COVID.  The anger / tantrums showed up in the 1st yr of marriage.  Most of the other signs showed up when our second (and last) child was about 6 months old.  The only things that became new to my awareness with COVID was the cutting/self-harm.  That's when I really knew this probably was what I feared it was.  However, looking back I do wonder if self-harm was occurring earlier.  She often had a lot of bruising on her legs.  She said she bruised easily, and when she got pregnant there were complications related to blood count issues.  So I assumed that explanation was legitimate.  But I have also noticed that since the cutting started (a year ago, and I honestly don't know that it's still going on), I have not noticed much bruising at all.  So it does make me wonder if there was more to the bruising.  

I don't have a therapist yet, but it's certainly something I've been looking into.  Our oldest son had been in therapy for about 2 years for anxiety and depression starting before and going through COVID.  He's been (seeming to do) much better lately and we discontinued a couple months ago.  But it's now clear to me he still needs help.  I'm contemplating how to approach this because I don't know that my wife is on the same page.  And I'm debating whether it's a good idea or a terrible idea to see if his therapist would be willing to work with my son, myself, and perhaps our other son.  The BPD context was never made aware to this therapist when my son worked with him.  It seems like that would be helpful for him to know.  And it seems like it could be helpful for him to work on all of us knowing the full dynamic.  But it also seems potentially fraught, and I don't even know the ethics or standard practice with those types of situations for an individual therapist.  Any guidance on that?

Olafisnki and Selfishsally -- thanks for your words and perspective.  So sorry you're going through this, too.  It sucks, but it's definitely helpful knowing you're not alone.

Couper -- both my sons are really into Minecraft.  Before I really understood what Minecraft was, I wasn't terribly encouraging of it.  But now I think there are some useful aspects to it.  And I can totally see how that is a good escape for them.  It's a world they have control in.  It's a world where they know the rules, they know the risks, and the consequences come at expected times.  I would pine for that state of mind, too, when your real world is prone to blow up at you at any given moment even if you just did all the things you were supposed to do.  So I'm trying to thread the needle of letting them spend time doing that, without becoming addicted or so immersed that they lose touch with the real world, too.  Regarding your comment about him hating the things his mom blows up about, that's one of things my older son mentioned the other night.  He does not like to travel anymore.  He gets upset when we leave for vacations.  He came right out and told me everytime we go on vacation, something goes wrong and mommy gets mad and I feel bad about myself.  And he's right.  We were actually supposed to be on a long vacation as we speak.  A natural disaster forced us to cancel, and I'm so thankful for it (despite losing our $1,000 non-refundable costs).  Instead we went on a 2-night trip nearby.  Even with that, she completely lost her PLEASE READ and started screaming at him in the middle of a public park with many people around.  It was awful and embarrassing.  And not the first time.  So he's completely justified in his feelings.  I'm there, too.  I took my younger son on a trip with just him and me a month ago.  It was fabulous.  So stress-free.  I felt like myself.  He was just happy go-lucky.  This shouldn't be that hard.  Yet it is.

All this said, my wife was pretty wonderful yesterday.  She acted like the person I wanted to marry.  She was good with the kids.  I should feel good about that.  But I don't anymore.  Because I know at any minute the bad stuff is gonna walk through the door.  I just don't know when.

[Couper]

So many similarities.  Married right about the same amount of time and my kids (son a daughter) are only a little younger.  That's an interesting take on Minecraft.  I've heard him talk about it but I try to keep him on educational games, though he has some others where he is allowed to dabble.  I think part of it is he's just wired to like that stuff, but it is interesting how all of the stuff he likes seems to be things he can do in quiet.  My daughter, too.  Left alone, they can play in peace for long periods of time and tears mostly have to do with something involving their mother.  Interesting.

We are about to squeeze in a two week trip before the school stuff starts back.  It has gotten pushed off for various work-related reasons all summer, so I have had a long time to plan.  I tried like hell to get her to stay behind.  My kids are old enough to travel with one of us (she has taken them alone for weeks at a time to go see her parents)  and she hates going -- her word.  It's to see my parents and my kids haven't seen them in three years.  Not all her fault, but her uncooperativeness is a factor.  Every trip in the past has been spoiled by her petulance and I made it clear to her before we got married that getting back at least once a year was a huge priority.  Another thing she agreed to but never had any intention of honoring.  I tried using her own words about hating this that and everything related to going, spinning it and staying behind and having some free time to herself (because at other times it's the whole "being a mom is such a burnden") but she's on her best behavior and insisting on going.  I'm sure it's some fear over loss of control. 

It pains me to hear what your son is expressing to you.  Mine has yet to verbalize things like that but I can see it on his face in certain instances.  On a smaller level, I used to hear from my wife upon her return from every trip to the grocery store -- "They were awful, they wouldn't shut up, I'm so hard done-by" (always the victim) so I started taking them places with me and they are funny and chatty and interesting.  They are the happy, healthy, and well-mannered kids that people dream of.  The common denominator of all of these problems is clear.

The not-knowing you described is one of the worst parts.  Several years back on one of these trips everything was fine and I took her to meet one of my best friends and the three of us are standing around having a nice chat and out of nowhere she said, "He doesn't want me here because he hates me".  Well, I didn't then but I do now!  It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.  I'm sorry that I don't have any answers for you but it can help to compare notes.       

[Njhubby]

Vacations are so stressful on my end as well, I can totally relate. Especially to the part about trying to get her not to come. The few times I’ve taken my son so where alone it was glorious. Literally every single vacation we’ve gone on has included some sort of episode. Sucks for me and my son (8 years old) for sure. It’s made Disney the unhappiest place on earth a few times.

[DidntWantThis]

Couper -- it sounds like you are a great, caring father and your kids are so fortunate to have you.  Definitely many similarities in our environment, although it sounds like our uBPD wives  might be of slightly different flavors.  My kids have suddenly taken a liking to joining me at Costco.  They used to want nothing to do with it, but now they raise their hand and enjoy pushing the cart together.  It's a nice relief for all 3 of us.  

We're supposed to go visit my parents next month, and just an hour or so ago I got her to say she may not join us -- great!  In fairness, my parents are a whole other problem for me and much like your wife, they are into all  the ridiculous conspiracy theories of the day.  And my wife can't stand them for that (we agree at least!).  But if that's enough to have her stay home, I'm fine with that.

My wife is fortunately fairly high functioning -- a practicing physician actually.  So she's capable of functioning -- although there's certainly some unnecessary drama she brings to her profession.  But man, once she turns off her professional front, all bets are off.  Although she's not into the conspiracy theories like you mention, her avoidance technique is searching for any possible explanation for her feeling bad other than looking at her own behavior and thought process.  I probably have > $1000 of self-help books laying around.  She'll read one to pass time.  Not actually practice anything out of it.  Not get "cured", so then read another.  Rinse and repeat for a decade.  Last year she got into pseudo-medical podcasts and started learning things like blue light causing problems (probably some merit to it).  So suddenly that was what was making her upset.  She went around the house replacing many light bulbs with orange or red lights now.  She walks around wearing orange goggles at night that block blue light.  She bought an expensive high-powered red light therapy light.  That thing is insane.  She'll turn it on with the windows open, and it shines out on the trees like a nuclear explosion.  I'm sure the neighbors wonder what the hell is going on.  But in short, she'll look for any explanation for her problems outside of herself.  Vitamins.  Hormones.  New foods.  New exercise class.  You name it, she'll try it.  As long as she doesn't have to look within.  

I hope you are able to pull off a peaceful visit to your parents.  We can compare notes

[Selfishsally]

That is heartbreaking to hear how your older son is feeling. Hopefully, therapy and your support will be helpful.

Have you or anyone really, ever attempted to condemn the bad behavior when witnessed?

I can not remember where I read this, but it stated in the book something along the lines of what would you say to the person talking to your child or treating them in a negative way  if the person doing that wasn't your SO? Would you allow them to speak to your child like that?

Anyway, that stuck with me. I was also feeling like I shouldn't undermine my H in front of my son because I needed to be a good, respectful wife. I would gently try to talk to him later about how he could react to the situation differently. My H didn't seem to get too upset if I approached it that way,he would either be overcome with shame or seem to listen but nothing ever really changed. But, I feel like my son was never hearing me say that the way he was witnessing his daddy respond or talk about him or even about me was wrong. So I feel like by not saying anything and trying to keep peace, I was just reinforcing that that behavior is acceptable.

[Couper]

That is very kind of you to say.  My kids are the key reason I stay, otherwise I would just pay the tariff and move on.  I do feel like I have failed monumentally for having brought them into the middle of this situation.  Hindsight being 20/20 and all that good stuff.  I can tell by what you have shared that you are absolutely invested in doing the best for your kids, as well.  Just like your username indicates, this isn't what we signed up for, and therein lies the rub with the whole thing.

You are correct in that our wives are two different people.  I would not describe mine as high functioning, but mine would feel qualified in arguing with your physician wife on medical matters despite having no medical training.  She fancies herself an expert in vaccines and numerous other places she feels science is ripping off the public (probably part of the perpetual victim thing again).  Yet, there are interesting similarities.  Awhile back I started counting all the self-help books she has on a shelf upstairs... then when I realized there were more downstairs that I forgot about, I realized I should be doing something better with my time.  I will try to keep her away from that talk of blue light stuff lest my house becomes a disco.  She would latch on to that in a heartbeat.  The big one here are these essential oils.  If people want to believe in them, fine, that's their business, but her and her mother both have vials of these things all over the place for ever ailment.  I can't stand them and when they run them in this vaporizer machine my lungs fill up with water.  Her mother has made passive-aggressive comments to the kids that people whose bodies reject these oils are full of toxins (that's me!).  I just tell my kids that someone is not toxic based on what they cannot put in their mouth but rather what is coming out of it!  They use them on the kids for everything you can imagine and, despite them liking the smell of some, if you ask them if it's helping and they say no, my wife goes through the roof. 

Her medicine cabinet is now packed and I see her gulping all manner of things during the day.  Most probably don't hurt, but I wonder if a problem better fixed now is brewing rather than being addressed properly.  That's her problem.  When I have made suggestions in the past about seeking outside help with an ailment, I'm accused of wanting her to get hurt by the helper.

On that level, I think it's just what you say -- all of these things are to avoid looking within.

Over the last year or more she has come to need a constant source of noise.  Her phone is blasting music, talk radio is going, something is playing on the PC -- sometimes all three at once.  From the time she gets up until she goes to bed, it never stops.  I like to have my breakfast in peace and quiet and read while I eat and, in the odd event she gets up early enough, here she comes.  Phone blaring, radio on.  If you ask her to turn it off you're met with anger and how it has to be all about me whereas I view it as a someone walking in the room, lighting up a cigarette, and blowing smoke in my face.  I know there's something to it and I think she can't stand to be alone with her thoughts.  Do you ever see that?

Share anything else you can think of that helps with your boys.  I'm always looking for new ideas to lessen the damage.

       

[DidntWantThis]

Selfishsally -- Sadly, no, I've not made an attempt to condemn the behavior as strongly as I should.  I think I'm starting to build up the courage.  I feel just awful about not stepping up to do it at the park the other day when she yelled at my son.  He deserved sticking up for, and I failed him. 

Couper -- I totally forgot about our essentially oils fad.  I've made it pretty clear for years that I'm skeptic around a lot of that and think the bulk of the hype is foolish (but I'm all for smelling nice smells that you enjoy smelling...go to town).  But, ya, within the last year there was a big phase going through the essential oils.  Whatever.  But that seems to have passed -- I haven't seen or smelled them in the past several months. 

And there are some similarities on the continuous noise thing, but a little different maybe.  One of her latest distractions is taking some advanced course work, so that occupies her a lot.  But when not doing that, I can definitely see that noise is used to fill the void.  Lots of podcasts going.  Or music on.  The car is a very difficult spot for us.  If I happen to chew gum, I will get the look of the devil and then she'll angrily pull out some headphones, plug them into her phone, and detach into whatever she's listening to.  Ditto if a kid so much as sniffles in the back seat -- angry outburst at him, then off to headphone land to tune us all out.  If we're not at that point, either the radio needs to be on and/or she needs to be scrolling Facebook.  There's rarely a period of just sitting and being in the car. 

There's been a story from her that as kids when her family went on road trips, her sister would get angry and yell at her to stop breathing.  With a lot of other clues, I concluded her sister was likely BPD long before I figured that out on my wife.  It's just so ironic that she could see the obsurdity of it from her sister, but when it's essentially the same for someone chewing gum with their mouth closed or softly sniffing their nose she has the same reaction as her sister.  And god forbid if I ever have any congestion and need to clear my throat.  Those days never go well.  Oh, my mouse clicking while working just about got me killed when she had to stay home during COVID.  So I guess I'm saying my situation is a little weird -- yes, there's a need for noise, but at the very same time there's very much a need for NOT having very specific noises. 

As for tips for the kids, what I've been doing with mine the last couple weeks is simply being really open and present for them.  I'm honest about the situation.  I tell them this makes me sad, too.  I give them time.  I'm really trying to practice listening to them.  And I just keep reassuring them that I truly do love them, even if I suck at showing it at times.  Will this work long-term?  Who knows, but so far it's been effective at getting my kids to open up and come to me.  So that's something.  It's also resulted in them giving me some constructive criticisms as well.  That's not pleasant, but I need to hear it and it'll help me be a better dad and hopefully this spirals in positive direction from that feedback.  I can say I'm super proud of my kids for being able to express themselves on this issue -- I would've bottled this all up and not said a word when I was there age.  It's awful that they have to be a situation where they can show that courage, but since we are I'm glad they're showing it.  They are some pretty wise little creatures.  I have a lot to learn from them.

[Selfishsally]

DidntwantThis- please don't beat yourself up about anything. It's evident that you love your kids and that you are a great dad.

I was just sharing that because it really made me think about how I was handling certain situations. It might not always be the appropriate course of action but could be helpful for our kids at times.

[olafinski]

Hi!
Grabbing a moment here on our "vacation"
My W and 10y old son are inside with the A/C and I am outside dealing with a work problem so perhaps I will be able to compose a reply If not will continue later.

So the main thing that I have to say is that my situation is perhaps a bit different than what I get from others, in some important details.
When we met some month after I got diagnosed with diabetes T1 (at 35). As my w's father is a doctor she was incredibly helpful and is since then. She was really 100% with me since in my illness and helped me a lot. Also, to be honest at 35 after a failed marriage (no kids) and a lot of bad relationships to be honest I thought that I will never have a family. I am a creative (music producer) and a "head in the air" kind of guy and have a lot of faults, mainly because I am too much "in my head" (music always playing there). So there is a lot to tolerate also. At the start we were kidding that we are "damaged goods", her also having a failed first marriage but with a kid, a son who was 7 when we met and is 21 now.
She has some incredible qualities and in a lot of aspects is a perfect mother. She was not like that with her first child and he grew up to be a troubled young man. But with our son she changed and felt deep love for the first time and I must say that she is  really good with him.
What is a big problem though is that she quite often talks trash to me and her son and our little one is exposed 24/7. From the start she said that she thinks that arguing should be done in front of the children because they need to understand that life is not only roses. Off course, I quite early realised that there is no arguing with her and learned to just be quiet and way for hell to pass.
When I realised that she most probably has BPD some year and a half ago I also realised that I am already practicing everything that is suggested when you have a BPD partner. So there is little I can do here.
Every mention of therapy is laughed upon, even for me. We also have sexual problems, basically a sexless marriage for the last 7-8 years. We had sex a couple of times.
Will continue later.

[Couper]

DidntWantThis:  Your kids being able to communicate these things to you is pure gold.  Mine do not (though I am hoping they will get there).  What I have started to notice as they get older is the confusion on their faces and, in a private moment (when I won't get my head chopped off for doing so) I try to help correct the confusion in whatever way is appropriate.  I'm hoping as they get older they will start to notice that there is more than one way -- their mother's way vs. what normal people do -- and begin to realize there is an option.

My uBPDw will bend over backwards to never answer things as yes or no, which is rather ironic given their propensity to live in a black-and-white world.  Anything that would require her to take ownership of an outcome is verboten.  It's not uncommon for them to ask her a simple question and either she ignores them outright or she gives them such a vague answer that they don't know which way to go.  I try to show them there is an alternative simply by being very clear when answering the things I am asked.  They hug on her and "want mom" all the time despite the fact that so often she is off in space and is never conversational with them.  I'm the one that plays and jokes and chitchats with them (and they want me all the time, too) but I start to wonder if as they get older they will drift from her.  It's a shame, she is missing out on a time in their lives that is going to pass very quickly.  That will probably bring from her a whole new wave of resentment as she already resents my having a good relationship with them.  At least with my pwBPD, everything boils down to being forced into making a choice between her or {fill-in-the-blank}. 

It's encouraging to hear that you get constructive feedback from your kids and I can only hope mine start doing the same.  It will be a sign to me that they aren't accepting her persona.

[DidntWantThis]

Couper -- ya, I'm pretty fortunate to have kids I can talk to.  If not for their sake, I need it for my own.  That said, they have some challenges and man am I worried for their sake about them having both a genetic propensity for BPD as well as someone modeling those behaviors daily.

But it sounds like maybe you're doing even better than you give your situation credit for with your kids.  The example you SHOW your kids is a form of communication.  And their responses, their "looks", and hopefully their emulation are ways for them to communicate back to you as well.  It doesn't have to involve words.  That can come later as you open the channels of communication these other ways.  Keep doing what you're doing and trust your instincts for modifications as appropriate.  When your intentions are noble as is clearly the case, you'll know the right time and situation to elicit more discussion.  Keep up the good fight.

Can I ask if your kids have ever seen therapists where they may have had a chance to open up about their thoughts on this without your awareness?

[Couper]

In your case, you genuinely believe this is a genetic issue?  I know earlier that you mentioned the mother and sister -- have you observed the two of them to behave as such or is your belief based only on what your wife told you about them?  That's not to question your judgement, just to understand.  My wife is a documented liar.  When she talks about the negative attributes of others, I have found that she is really talking about herself.  The things she tells others about me (either things that are distorted accounts or simply never happened at all) would lead one to believe that I am the pwBPD instead of her.

The idea that it can be inherited is indeed scary.  In my wife's case, I believe it was an environmental trigger from a traumatic experience and the subsequent mismanagement of it.

Thank you for your kind words.  I muddle through as best I can.  Still, it would be interesting to hear either of my kids speak about it and, in time, perhaps they will.  At what age did your kids start talking about it?  My son is the one I worry about the most.  He seems the most affected by it and I sense that he has picked up some of her attributes, like never answering a question in the affirmative or you ask what's his favorite of something and he won't pick.  Then again, maybe it's just how he's wired, but this whole BPD thing has a way of leaving one with more questions than answers.

My kids have not seen a therapist.  I can't even imagine how I would engineer such a meeting.  She would fight it tooth-and-nail if I were to make the arrangement and, if I did it in secret and it came out later, you would know by the flash of light immediately before the nuclear blast leveled this hemisphere.  Is your wife on board with your son going because of his anxiety issues?  My son has issues with some of his school work (both the work itself and his emotional response to it -- he is homeschooled) and needs outside help with some of that.  I have had very long pointless discussions where she objects to any third-party intervention purely because her being seen as inadequate trumps her desire to see him succeed.  This whole thing is a wretched vile scenario.   

[DidntWantThis]

My kids just had birthdays and are now 10 and 12.  The open, direct discussions really just started recently.  There've been a few comments here and there in the past.  But it seems to be crystalizing lately for the 3 of us.

I'm sorry you're in a situation where the wife is such an obstacle for getting the kids some therapy.  It's so unfair to everyone to make a bad problem worse by blocking solutions.  I fear I'm heading for that situation as well.  My wife had been "ok" with therapy for anxiety issues, but of course she finds fault with the therapists and psychiatrists and was pretty eager to stop all of them. 

My situation has just escalated in the last few hours.  The dinner table is another frequent trigger for her.  I was in charge tonight and was too slow to get the 3 of us boys fed before she got home from work (learn from that mistake).  So she sat down with us.  Had chicken.  I happened to lick my finger (finger lickin' good!).  She went OFF on that.  She has this thing about other people at the dinner table.  It's not just me.  It's the kids sometimes.  But, man, I see her go after her dad for it when he is over, too.  There is something from her childhood dinners with him that triggers her and she takes it out on us.  Anyway, after the screaming at us for our awful manners, she leaps to her standard victim phrase about how we always ruin dinner for her.  I've been reading more about BPD projection this afternoon, and it really clicked what's going on here.  The 3 of us were having a nice, fun dinner together.  She unnecessarily starts a fiasco to spoil our pleasant dinner, and whammo -- blame us in an explosion!

Weirdly, after less than 2 minutes she was fine again and came back and joined us again almost like nothing happened.

She seemed ok for the next hour or 2, but then at bedtime my son and I were together watching a video of pickleball stategy (he's gotten really into that the past couple weeks).  She walks in and thinks it's cute for 30 seconds, and then explodes into her rage speech about how she's "always" the one who has to tell us to turn the screens off.  Storms out complaining about not feeling part of the family (triggered I guess because my son and I were spotted enjoying each other's company).  Stormed off into her BR (fortunately we've always slept in separate rooms...I'm good with that even with a non-BPD partner).  And then slamming and throwing something.  It'll be interesting to find out the damage tomorrow. 

I sense her rage increase as I think she alternately is sensing my approach to this changing.  I'm slowing starting to stop rolling over when these things happen.  It's throwing her off, I think.   After the finger-licking incident and her sermon about how awfully rude it was, my older son asked why it was rude.  I simply told him "That's an opinion, not a fact."  She was a little stumped that I pushed back even that little.  I'm starting to do that with a little more regularity, and I think it's messing with her "order".

It's been another interesting night.  My kids got another good show from mom.  How confusing must this be for them?

As for the genetic issue, I've seen both first hand and second hand that my sister in-laws behavior is clearly BPD.  No one has ever talked about her having a personality disorder.  But it's common place that they talk about how difficult she has been and still is.  And it's all pretty classically BPD.  Apparently she really worsened last year in COVID, too, so much so that my brother-in-law reached out to her parent to talk about something being very wrong.  I'm not that close to him and that's all I know.  But she's more clearly BPD than even my wife from my observation.  The MIL I haven't quite figured out yet.  She's got something.  There are anger outbursts.  She snaps at my FIL much like my wife to me.  You can tell by his behavior he's tired of taking this beating for 50 years.  She's somewhere in the BPD/NPD cluster.  Very outwardly nice and "caring", but the caring is about her -- not about the people she's "caring" for.  The MIL's brother also committed suicide about a decade ago after getting busted having affairs.  I didn't really know him and they don't really talk much about him, but it certainly is another point of evidence for something biological going on there in this realm.

So ya, I worry about my kids having both the biology and behavioral example to pick up some of these traits. 

What are the ages of your kids? 

[Couper]

I hate that you're experiencing this but glad that you are beginning to be able to define how these instances occur.  That will be key in helping you to not waste energy trying to define the WTF'ness of what just happened.  I call what she did, "setting up the pins so she can knock them down" and could cite for you a list of similar instances as long as my arm.  Where at one time I would get sucked in, try to diffuse, smooth over, defend myself -- whatever -- now I just stand back and marvel.  Even with the most diplomatic approach, I find that adding to it is just like bringing her cans of gasoline to dump on the fire that she lit.

You are recognizing a theme in her being jealous of your good relationship with your children.  Mine does the same.  I attribute it to her intense internal self-loathing and the jealousy that comes with it.  I never imagined that I would be in a position where doting on the children would classify me as a deadbeat.  As you described, that's great they get over the whole thing so fast, but it's like that old adage where a dinner plate can be broken, glued, broken again, glued again, but you still see all the cracks.  I've dared to point that out a couple of times in the past before I knew better but she is rubber and I am glue and in ten seconds flat the whole thing was turned upside-down on me.  Lesson learned.

Pushing back will very likely knock her off her footing.  She will adapt, so expect the next time that it could come with repercussions.  Some here may say it's not the correct thing to do, but in any case I simply aim to assert my rights and that those rights are the same as the ones she tries to exercise and if she wants to escalate it I declare that I have stated my position and move on.

Does your wife seek out people that she can manipulate to prop herself up?  When mine finds one that will accept anything she says at face value, she will latch onto them and feed them select material so that she can get only the feedback she wants and to further her victim status.  She has had some good objective friends in the past but when she has tried to confide in them and finds they will not automatically take her side, they immediately go to the back of the line. 

As an example of really knocking my wife off her footing one morning, she’s talking to the kids about the husband of a friend's mother that they see at one of their groups (already a topic not appropriate for an adult to have regarding their friend's parents) and she says, “He’s just not a very nice man” and I asked her his name and she didn’t know, so I asked how she knows he’s not very nice and she says that, “Because I know his wife and she tells us about him”.  So I point out that she’s never met him, doesn’t know his name, but the wife is to be believed and this man have his reputation ruined without a fair trial? (which she knows is exactly what she does to me behind my back with telling half-truths to garner sympathy from people).  She got really uneasy with all of that.  It didn’t curb her behavior, but at least I got to illustrate the hypocrisy.

That's a real shame about the rest of the family.  Your MIL describes just like mine, but I still don't feel mine is BPD.  I tried talking to my MIL recently and now think it was a mistake.  I know she has personally experienced many of these same things from my wife when she lived with them, but I think all she does is make excuses for her behavior because of her own role (guilt) in screwing up her daughter.  My wife will listen to her mother and I was hopeful that after what she had witnessed last week that she would intervene in a positive way, but all she did was move further to her side to gang up on me.  Oh well.  Even if there is a biological component to your situation, hopefully you helped to dilute those genes, and simply having you around to break the toxic cycle is going to be a benefit to your boys because there is certainly a learned element to this stuff.

My daughter is 9 and my son is closing in on 12.  Hopefully I'm past the halfway point on having to be their buffer.  Hang in there.  I know in my case, being the buffer is all that keeps me here.

So much as you can control it, make sure your kids have lots of exposure to other good kids in whatever their activities may be.  I say this because here recently I made a combination fun / work trip to someone's home and stayed with their family for a couple of days.  It was so fantastic spending time with mentally healthy adults.  No worrying about telling a joke and being accused of something or otherwise being pre-judged as guilty for anything I hadn't even said.  It was a rare opportunity for me, but I keep thinking how much nicer things would be if I could do that on a regular basis.  Similar exposure is bound to help our kids, as well.



 

             

[DidntWantThis]

Thanks once again for your reply, wisdom and insights.  It's been such a relief to talk to someone in a similar situation after all these years.  I am truly grateful.

Today wasn't bad.  I didn't sleep well at all after that episode last night, but I laid in bed as long as I could to get some rest as I knew it wasn't wise to confront her when not well-rested.  First thing I told her "let's talk about this".  It went fairly well.  She got some stuff out and felt some support.  I tried to use the SET approach some.  Seemed to go over fairly well.

She even seemed open to seeing a therapist and has someone in mind.  That's hopeful, however, I'm not sure that the person she has in mind is necessarily going to be ideal for seeing BPD traits as it's a former loose colleague of hers.  It's a step at least, though.  We'll have to see if she follows through on it though.  I fear it'll be a situation where now that the heat of that moment has passed and she feels slightly better after talking that she will just decide "I'm fine again now and I don't need it."

As for your question about her seeking out folks to manipulate, I think it's a little more subtle with her being the quiet type and an introvert.  What I mainly am seeing is leveraging Facebook social networks to (A) put on a warm, favorable face -- PTO and scout volunteer (but then gripe to me about it), doting mom, etc.  (B) seek sympathy (X just happened to me and my husband thinks I'm overreacting.  Can you believe this?)   I won't go so far to say as (B) happens frequently, but it does happen.  (A) happens a lot. 

Random question for you and others:  Does your pwBPD have issues around food that are unusually prevalent and results in distraction, conflict or complication?   The last pwBPD I somewhat had a relationship with was fascinated not only with recipes, but with very unusual habits that made it hard to share a meal with.  She was a vegetarian (which I'm fine with, but not one).  But she had absolutely no ethical reason for doing so.  She admitted she just stopped eating meat as a kid basically to be difficult for her family.  And she stuck with it.

One of the earliest warning signs with my wife was shortly after our 2nd and last child was born.  She suddenly started also spending a crazy amount of time reading and trying all these different (typically healthy) recipes.  And there was a vegetarian phase.  The content has changed over the last decade, but to this day she still spends a ridiculous amount of time and energy each day preparing various food and beverages for herself.  All stuff that's of no interest to the rest of us.  My wife and I have always had different tastes (I'm pretty picky, but simple and easy).  But something changed dramatically with her after our 2nd child.  She literally scoffs at some of the food the boys and I eat and like.  If we like it -- she hates it.  She doesn't just not eat it, she'll tell us the smell (or whatever) repulses her.  It's just really similar to that previous pwBPD and I'm curious if that's coincidence or others experience this, too. 

[once removed]

two things really jump out at me, reading your story and this thread.

the first is that people with BPD traits are, generally speaking, highly sensitive people (HSP). highly sensitive people are stimulated, or over stimulated by their environment. how that plays out for any given person depends. i do not have BPD, but i am a highly sensitive person. there are some key criteria i do not meet, or dont meet much, but there are certain things that hit me big time, and sounds are one. you could sit me all day long in a room with a person typing on a keyboard and i wouldnt notice. put that same typing noise in a commercial, and it drives me insane, and i want to throw something at my television.

your wife clearly has some strong triggers and reactions to her surroundings and environment, and there are some things that really get under her skin.

the other is this:

Storms out complaining about not feeling part of the family

i suspect that this is underlying the vast majority of the problems your relationship is experiencing.

[Couper]

the first is that people with BPD traits are, generally speaking, highly sensitive people (HSP). highly sensitive people are stimulated, or over stimulated by their environment. how that plays out for any given person depends.

I would say it's HSP (which many perfectly functional and healthy people seem to have) and becomes toxic when combined with another term I have seen -- "high conflict personality".  I can't speak for Didnt's situation, of course, but in my own this is definitely true.  Nothing is simple and discussing even the most innocent mundane thing can turn into a fight in seconds flat.  The aspersions are cast before a word is ever spoken and she holds on to things waiting for an opportunity to weaponize them.  I've received some of what I call "hate mail" through the years.  As things would cycle around, when they would reach a boiling point sometimes she would write me these long single spaced multi-page letters outlining everything regarding her justification for her hate and rage and so forth, though never really taking responsibility for any of it because everything was justified with the magic b-words "but", "because", etc. that would turn the blame on anyone she had painted black, so she is entitled.

 

[Couper]

Greetings DWT: I find the exchanges helpful, as well.  Your point about rest is valid.  Don't forget to take care of yourself or think that it is selfish for you to do so.  It can be easy to neglect oneself in the midst of all the chaos.  The pwBPD is going to suffer regardless of how many times you throw yourself on the sword. 

It will be interesting to hear how the therapist thing plays out.  Mine has always refused it outright because, despite the fact that she is the common denominator in all of the conflicts in her life, everyone else is the problem.  The final straw that caused me to snooze her a couple of years ago is she was all over me about going to marriage counseling -- "If YOU don't agree to marriage counseling, we are headed for divorce and it will all be YOUR fault".  This went on for a few months.  Finally it occurred to me that this was her new victim card so she could go around saying things don't improve because of me and she is pure and clean as the wind-driven snow for having tried to make the effort.  I decided that the next time she brought it up, I would agree to go.  My thinking was that would probably kill it, but I actually was 100% on board with going because after being clobbered so much with this, I welcomed the idea of having an impartial 3rd party to listen.  The next time she brought it up, I agreed, told her she was absolutely right, let's do it, and it was like all the air went out of her balloon.  I told her to pick the time, the place, the person -- she had put so much thought into it that surely she must have a plan.  From that point on it has never been spoken about again unless I brought it up.  She has been too busy moving the goalpost.  If I do bring it up, she goes into panic mode to reroute the conversation elsewhere.  So, I finally came to a realization after a year that the objective isn't to fix anything, I am just the tool she uses to elicit pity from others.  I hope your wife's desire for therapy is more genuine.

The issues revolving around food here are different.  She either wants to cook something new or try to invent something, but she'll refuse to follow instructions (recipes).  If I find something I want to try myself for the first time, she's constantly telling me how I should deviate from the recipe and I say no, I'll stick to it this time and modify the next to suit if necessary so that I have some kind of repeatable baseline.  If the roles are reversed, she'll just do whatever she wants, not follow the instructions, and then say how it's no good. 

If she does manage to invent something really super by throwing things into a pot -- enjoy it the first time because it will never happen again.  She refuses to record how she does things or, even if it is simple enough to remember, she has to do it different the next time and once it is no good, she won't again make it as she did the first time.  Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is a recurring theme in all things in her life.

Another such instance is something we both have made repeatedly (that even she will admit she is disappointed with) and if you find a solution, you will be in her crosshairs.  One night cooking for myself I YouTubed a solution to an ongoing cooking problem with a simple dish and caught all kinds of hell that, "you hate my cooking, you're only doing this to make me look stupid".  It's exhausting, so that's why I just say nothing anymore and marvel at the crazy baglady.

I know there are all these techniques to smooth situations over and I'm sure their level of success varies greatly with the severity of the condition.  In my case, very rarely can anything flattering be used that will not earn scorn, so I use the word, "okay" a lot these days and let her fume.  That's certainly not my suggestion to you if you're in a more favorable position where you can turn things around.     

[DidntWantThis]

Couper -- I had to chuckle Saturday.  My wife was making pesto.  She says, "This is too salty.  It would probably help if I followed the recipe.  But I like just adding stuff."  So you're not alone

Your experience with suggesting marriage counseling sounds like it's gotta be very frustrating for you, too.  But at least you understand why it's going the way it's going.  I haven't had as serious of discussions as you.  But when this flared up several years ago, I did come right out and suggest we get some counseling.  Similar to you, that kind of fizzled the fueld right out.  I got no response either way.  That didn't seem to be in her plan.

As for the discussion around HSP with you and OnceRemoved, I can see where this plays in.  Pretty early on in marriage, it was apparent that she was an HSP, although I didn't really have a term for it.  I thought that was just an unusal characteristic and didn't really connect it to other symptoms.  But has time has gone on, it's become clear it's much deeper than just being a HSP.

Regarding the comment that my wife not feeling part of the family is underlying the problems, I totally agree.  That's a big trigger currently, although I don't think that's been the primary driver in previous cycles.  I try to help her feel more included, but at some point we just have to proceed with life.  An example of self-fulfilling prophecy around this happened Friday.  Friends in the neighborhood invited us to get together Friday night with their family.  Without discussing with me, my wife replied to the text saying we'd be there.  She knew that the start time was going to be well before she arrived home from work, so she'd have to meet the kids and I there later.  After waiting a while after she should've arrived, I went to check at home.  She was there.  She said she decided to just study instead of come join us.  It's hard to feel part of the family when you accept an invitation for the rest of us and then fail to show up.  Very frustrating.

The good news is the past 3 days have been better.  Maybe she bottomed out for this cycle.  She certainly seems more at ease and rational.  I even witnessed her licking her fingers Saturday night at dinner, and I was able to get away with a lick without getting screamed at.  Grateful for a couple days of peace.  But it's so confusing -- like a switch gets flipped as the same triggers can either causing nothing or start WW III. 

Hope others are able to find a little peace for themselves on occasion, too.

[Couper]

Couper -- I had to chuckle Saturday.  My wife was making pesto.  She says, "This is too salty.  It would probably help if I followed the recipe.  But I like just adding stuff."  So you're not alone

OMG.  You can't make this stuff up!

But when this flared up several years ago, I did come right out and suggest we get some counseling.  Similar to you, that kind of fizzled the fueld right out.  I got no response either way.  That didn't seem to be in her plan.

One of the ultimate takeaways from that event for me was that an impartial third-party is kryptonite to her.  This forum seems to indicate that is a common occurrence with BPD's with the suggestion that marriage counseling doesn't work.  I guess you and I both should thank our lucky stars they weren't feeling bold enough to attempt it.    

As for the discussion around HSP with you and OnceRemoved, I can see where this plays in.  Pretty early on in marriage, it was apparent that she was an HSP, although I didn't really have a term for it.  I thought that was just an unusal characteristic and didn't really connect it to other symptoms.  But has time has gone on, it's become clear it's much deeper than just being a HSP.

In our case we didn't live together first (she wanted to "do it right") and I have to think if I had the opportunity that she wouldn't have been able to hide it and all of this would have been avoided.  At the time she rented a house with three other girls.  While they all seemed to get along well, and I sort of took that as a good sign as to her character, it occurred to me recently that for the good friends they supposedly all were, none of them have really kept up with her these last dozen years...

 

An example of self-fulfilling prophecy around this happened Friday...

During a rare moment of unfiltered honesty once during one of her fits, mine once told me, "Whenever I am told to do something I feel compelled to do the opposite".

  

The good news is the past 3 days have been better.  Maybe she bottomed out for this cycle.  She certainly seems more at ease and rational.  I even witnessed her licking her fingers Saturday night at dinner, and I was able to get away with a lick without getting screamed at.  Grateful for a couple days of peace.  But it's so confusing -- like a switch gets flipped as the same triggers can either causing nothing or start WW III.  

Take peace wherever you can find it and make the conscious decision that you're not going to let someone else's negative actions destroy you.  There must be some reason for gaining the new perspectives that come as a result of being subject to this insanity.  In my working life, almost everyone I deal with is older than me by at least one generation if not two.  I get to know a lot of these individuals very well and am often in awe of how many lifetimes some of them have lived.  Some good, some bad, but more often than not, the good ones come toward the latter half.

Hope others are able to find a little peace for themselves on occasion, too.

...and the same to you, also.  I'm about to embark on a two-week road trip with four spent in the car.  What could go wrong?

[waverider]

Being on the tail end of step mum vs kids etc, and kids now being adults and left home living their own life i have a few comments.

You can get so sucked into the dealing with, and getting over the latest dramas of BPD that your kids quietly go about doing their own thing, and will develop a sense of playing second fiddle to the drama queen and her antics. You will not see this until they have serious talks with you after they have left home, and they will at the first opportunity. Once out of the home and experiencing functionality rather than dysfunctionality they will start showing growing resentment, not only for your wife, but potentially towards you because you allowed them to be exposed to it. Neither should you underestimate the overwhelming sense of guilt you start to feel as you look back in hindsight, which in turn will bring on bitterness and anger.

It is very likely your kids will not want to come around to visit, along with any future grandkids. That will cause you a sense of loss and feeling of missing out on years of development.

So whats the moral of all this doom and gloom prediction? Simple if you want to stick this out it is imperative that you put your kids on the highest pedestal, above that of your wife regardless of the fall out, dont compromise what they can, and cant do. They have to know that you have their back, as someone who can twist your life around despite all the study you do of the disorder will have no issue running all over your kids.

This is not about overcoming the drama of the day. Each one of them is only a symptom of a bigger issue that is not going to end. pwBPD like you to constantly try to fix their problems, but it is the action of fixing they are addicted to, it is validating. They dont allow you to complete the fix , as then the supply of "being fixed" would be ended, hence they move the goalposts or build new ones. Likewise all attempts to get them to "self fixing lessons" also fail.

While you are fixing them you are distracted from fixing your kids growing issues. You have to know when to take a "tough, not my issue" approach to the unfixable and focus it where it is appreciated and effective.

Good luck guys, it is a long and hard road, look after the mental welfare of yourself and your kids. When you find yourself constantly doing late night walks with people looking at you strange as you are walking down the street muttering to yourself..be aware this is BPD fallout, and you are not the only ones.

Keep up a strong external interest / hobby /interaction with other people, even if you have to fight tooth and nail for it as this is your vital benchmark of normality. Your perspective gets skewed the more you get drawn into dealing with, and studying, the whole BPD aspect. You need a whole slab of time where BPD has no part or influence in. You can analyse it until the cows come home, then one day you will look back and realize what a waste of a large slab of your life was wasted trying to iron out something that was permacreased. Dont let the world pass you by, when you look back on it 10 years from now make sure you have a full album of rewarding memories, or bitterness will consume you thinking of all the time you spent on pause hoping things would get better. You need to eliminate the pause function before the world passes you by

[Couper]

Waverider -- I can't thank you enough for all of that.  Fantastic insight.  I'd like to revisit this when I return.  Launching out on a two week road trip tomorrow and should be in bed already.  Thanks again!

[DidntWantThis]

Couper -- best of luck for your journey.  I hope you're able to able to find a few moments that are rewarding for you.  Take care of yourself and the kids.

Waverider -- thanks for your insights on this.  Before things really took a meltdown recently and pushed me to hop onto this site, I was largely moving in the mindset you describe.  It's ironic that I'd been in one of the best places for myself in decades, even predating my wife.  I'd moved my focus to putting my own oxygen mask on first and taking care of my mental health.  And then just focused on making sure my kids had one stable relationship and example.  I could no longer handle catering to the tantrum's and whims of a 2-year old in a 40-something body after moving past that phase with my actual kids.  That got me in a great place.  But simultaneously, it seemed to just trigger her even more and things started spiraling again for her.  And that has suddenly put me in a not great place again.

Your words reassure me that I was generally on the right path.  I think I need to work on finding that right balance of keeping myself and the kids in a good place while making a little effort to avoid unnecessarily triggering her without enabling her.  It's a full-time job, isn't it?