One issue at a time

[Rockylove]

The last of the "company" left this morning.  I've already mentioned several days ago that we need to talk.  I told my bf that I understood that he felt I haven't been listening to him lately and we've both been under too much stress.  I said I wanted to communicate so that we both feel we are being heard.  He agreed.

Now comes the hard part.  There are soo many issues to discuss but I want to address only one.  His anger.  I think that's the most important subject at the moment, but I'm not sure how to communicate my feelings about it without going into some specific times he lashed out at me which I'm sure will cause him to get his hackles up.  

I'm seeking advise here.  

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[TigerEye]

Hey Rockylove

Glad to hear you've got your space back, it must be a relieve that some of the enablers/triggers have left the house.

I do not envy you in your talk, my advice is based solely on my own experiences using whatever knowledge and tools I found here to the best of my ability, you know your bf better than anyone and this is just my own approach.

I have found that with my SO, venturing into specifics can lead to car crash territory, especially when my perception of events differs from hers. I have found a more generalized discussion worked better, anything that doesn't mention 'you... .   ' because this was immediately picked on as an accusation, so lots of 'I ... .   ', 'I don't feel comfortable when I am being shouted at', the accusations may come back from the other side, but I try to stick with my feeling, not their actions. DEARMAN was what I tried to use, and I don't need to tell you to not get sucked into JADEing.

My next comment would be to ask whether this is going to be a boundary issue for you, and what are your expectations for an outcome, bearing in mind there is still stressful times ahead? Again, in my own experience, I have found that even if the talk goes well initially, all memory and control can go down the drain with the dirty dishwater when in the midst of a dysregulatory breakdown.

[Rockylove]

My next comment would be to ask whether this is going to be a boundary issue for you, and what are your expectations for an outcome, bearing in mind there is still stressful times ahead? Again, in my own experience, I have found that even if the talk goes well initially, all memory and control can go down the drain with the dirty dishwater when in the midst of a dysregulatory breakdown.

Thank you for your input TigerEye.  I do want to establish a boundary here.  I don't want to be cussed at, called names and be berated.  I want to be able to walk away when this happens and go to neutral corners until things subside.  I'm still working on this. 

He always says that he hates it when someone follows him from room to room wanting to argue~~he just wants to be left alone.  He used to blurt out something disparaging then go away in a huff (sometimes muttering under his breath but loud enough for me to hear him cussing)  I was getting pretty good at "dropping" it and going about my business.  The past month or so it's been him that has been the one to try goading me by following me into another room or yell from another room at me.  There have been times in the past (before I suspected BPD) when the accusations and disparaging remarks made me angry enough that I'd leave the house in a huff~~I'd usually drive to the part and take a walk for a while.  That did upset him (he said he didn't know if I was coming back or not).   I suppose my change in tactics upped the anti some and he's going to try pushing the limits. 

I want him to understand that I need to take time out when he's angry and cussing at me.  Just as he says he doesn't want someone following him around trying to start an argument, if he continues perpetuating the argument from another room I will leave the house.  TEMPORARILY~~until things cool down.  I don't want him to tell me to get out~~he's done that twice now and I have to figure out how to set a boundary on that as well.  I know he's saying it in anger and only means it at the moment, but how many times does one get thrown out of the house in the middle of the night before they go for good?  I've no good answer to that one.  I feel like twice was plenty, but it could happen again... .   and again! 

Right now I feel drained and don't even want to talk about anything with him.  I've not spoken to him about anything with substance or significance.  I'm a bit numb and I don't like it.  I'm trying to use this time to come back to life, but the underlying issue for me is wanting to effectively communicate my feelings about the anger~~his and mine.

[HarmKrakow]

My next comment would be to ask whether this is going to be a boundary issue for you, and what are your expectations for an outcome, bearing in mind there is still stressful times ahead? Again, in my own experience, I have found that even if the talk goes well initially, all memory and control can go down the drain with the dirty dishwater when in the midst of a dysregulatory breakdown.

Thank you for your input TigerEye.  I do want to establish a boundary here.  I don't want to be cussed at, called names and be berated.  I want to be able to walk away when this happens and go to neutral corners until things subside.  I'm still working on this. 

He always says that he hates it when someone follows him from room to room wanting to argue~~he just wants to be left alone.  He used to blurt out something disparaging then go away in a huff (sometimes muttering under his breath but loud enough for me to hear him cussing)  I was getting pretty good at "dropping" it and going about my business.  The past month or so it's been him that has been the one to try goading me by following me into another room or yell from another room at me.  There have been times in the past (before I suspected BPD) when the accusations and disparaging remarks made me angry enough that I'd leave the house in a huff~~I'd usually drive to the part and take a walk for a while.  That did upset him (he said he didn't know if I was coming back or not).   I suppose my change in tactics upped the anti some and he's going to try pushing the limits. 

I want him to understand that I need to take time out when he's angry and cussing at me.  Just as he says he doesn't want someone following him around trying to start an argument, if he continues perpetuating the argument from another room I will leave the house.  TEMPORARILY~~until things cool down.  I don't want him to tell me to get out~~he's done that twice now and I have to figure out how to set a boundary on that as well.  I know he's saying it in anger and only means it at the moment, but how many times does one get thrown out of the house in the middle of the night before they go for good?  I've no good answer to that one.  I feel like twice was plenty, but it could happen again... .   and again! 

Right now I feel drained and don't even want to talk about anything with him.  I've not spoken to him about anything with substance or significance.  I'm a bit numb and I don't like it.  I'm trying to use this time to come back to life, but the underlying issue for me is wanting to effectively communicate my feelings about the anger~~his and mine.

Hiya,

I don't have something specifically to tell you however, I would like to give you my respects for being able to bear with this all. I mean that.

I read myself a little into your story. You've met this man for 2 years. And I was wondering, considering your 52/53 years old now, are you willing to have such a draining life for the rest of your life? I mean is all this therapy and posting on this board trying to make it work worth it rather than quitting this and find someone else? I don't want to cause any offense, but (although im 25 and am a baby in regards of your life experience) if I would be in your shoes, having more to look back at, I would not want to spend my final 20/30/40 years draining my precious energy ... .

[Rockylove]

And I was wondering, considering your 52/53 years old now, are you willing to have such a draining life for the rest of your life? I mean is all this therapy and posting on this board trying to make it work worth it rather than quitting this and find someone else? I don't want to cause any offense, but (although im 25 and am a baby in regards of your life experience) if I would be in your shoes, having more to look back at, I would not want to spend my final 20/30/40 years draining my precious energy ... .

Yes and no.  The good times outweigh the bad.  My goal is to maintain my sanity in the times when insanity rules.  Lately, there have been some truly disturbing events that give me great pause.  I've always the option of walking away, but I would no more walk away from him if he had a physical illness that required constant care.  My level of compassion is high and my patience has grown through the years.  I'm not going to allow myself to be trapped in a loveless or abusive relationship, but for now I still see the good in what we have. 

[HarmKrakow]

And I was wondering, considering your 52/53 years old now, are you willing to have such a draining life for the rest of your life? I mean is all this therapy and posting on this board trying to make it work worth it rather than quitting this and find someone else? I don't want to cause any offense, but (although im 25 and am a baby in regards of your life experience) if I would be in your shoes, having more to look back at, I would not want to spend my final 20/30/40 years draining my precious energy ... .

Yes and no.  The good times outweigh the bad.  My goal is to maintain my sanity in the times when insanity rules.  Lately, there have been some truly disturbing events that give me great pause.  I've always the option of walking away, but I would no more walk away from him if he had a physical illness that required constant care.  My level of compassion is high and my patience has grown through the years.  I'm not going to allow myself to be trapped in a loveless or abusive relationship, but for now I still see the good in what we have. 

Your reply already envisions so much strenght and wisdom that I do have faith you master your way out of it and always have this backdoor option open without you ending to be the one suffering.

[TigerEye]

I want him to understand that I need to take time out when he's angry and cussing at me.

That's something I think you could work on. It's something that I have had to use A LOT! It's certainly worth introducing this concept in to a conversation, it doesn't have to go into specific incidents, just that when things are difficult you feel that you need to take time out until THINGS calm down, THINGS is important, don't say YOU - they don't like that!

Because of the verbally aggressive and very strong nature of my SO's PUSH faze, normally triggered by external influences resulting in major dysregulation unleashed on me, and because she has no problem doing this in front of family and recently friends, I have to get out of the way until things calm down - I guess that even though I am not the cause of her stress, I do somehow trigger the release her anger. Our time outs can range from an hour or two either upstairs or out of the house, to me having to leave her be for a few days, depending on the severity of the episode.

I try to keep using the term 'time out' when we are able to talk through some of these incidents, I like to keep it out there are a reminder in calmer times that this is what it is, although she may find it hard to understand at the time of the dysregulation, as she starts to get some control again I believe that she understands that this is what I'm doing and that I've not gone for good. That's not to say she likes it, but it has to be this way to prevent the aggression getting out of hand in front of the kids. The key, I feel, is getting to know when to go before you get caught up in the argument, that way, you don't have the resentment build up from being on the receiving end of such harsh words - that's the bit I'm still working on. She knows how to jump up and down on my buttons and I hate that I let her do that. Being able to calmly say 'time out' works best, Sunday I managed that, Monday I didn't!

Good luck with this, I feel it's a path worth pursuing, if only for your own mental health.

[briefcase]

I started with a cussing/name calling boundary too.  It just seemed so obvious to me that some of the things she was calling me and saying to me were just wrong and way out bounds.  This gave me some much-needed confidence to proceed.  

I did talk to her about my boundary.  She didn't agree with me.  When I started ending conversations and walking away she got a whole lot worse and would rage and fume (she couldn't ever really mainain a silent treatement for more than a day or two before just explodin in anger).  

So, as you work on changing your end of this dynamic (not sitting there and taking verbal abuse) he will react and probably not well.  He probably won't understand.  At least not when dysregulated.  Be prepared, its hard work to work on this positive change in the face of his opposition.  But, its worth it.  

[Rockylove]

Thank you all!  Your encouragement and experience give me food for thought~~and hope.  (and your kindness, harmkrakow is invaluable)  I've got a very difficult day tomorrow visiting clients one where I'm going to be raked over the coals for a job I did and they don't want to pay for and 3 potential new clients.  I'm not very good at selling myself and I'd love not to have the anxiety of relationship issues hanging over me when I go to work.  I'm signing off and spending the next hour in meditation. 

Thank you, again... .   I'll be back to update.

[Grey Kitty]

I gotta say that for me the verbal abuse boundary was a HUGE for me too.

In my case, I was more likely to have my wife's self-hatred projected onto me "You think I'm horrible" followed by attacking me for the horrible things I was saying about her in her own mind, instead of directly expressed anger. That didn't make it any easier to stand for me... .  

But when I got my resolve there, and got consistent about not sticking around for it, the verbal abuse (eventually) stopped. Kinda like Briefcase described it... .  

[Rockylove]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse with this, but I had to say it a few times because his mood was changing so rapidly and he was so dysregulated.  I chose my words carefully because he really does hang onto what is said verbatim.  Saying that I didn't like being called names, that it didn't enhance our relationship and I would take time out if or when it happens to allow us both to calm down felt empowering.  He understands, but I'm sure it won't be easy for him to remember it when dysregulated.  I have to continue to think calm thoughts for myself.

[Grey Kitty]

Rockylove,

Good for you telling him you will take a time out if he calls you names / etc.

It is an empowering thing to say. Always remember that it is YOUR power, and he can't take it away. It is also empowering to act on it and get out of the situation... .   and feel yourself start to wind slowly back down from it.

The subtle/interesting point I just realized is this:

You have the power to stop hearing him verbally abuse you.

You don't have the power to stop him from calling you names.

It just won't be very satisfying for him to yell "at" you when you aren't there... .  

[Rockylove]

You have the power to stop hearing him verbally abuse you.

You don't have the power to stop him from calling you names.

It just won't be very satisfying for him to yell "at" you when you aren't there... .  

LOL  Yes, Grey Kitty.  I suppose that's the point of leaving.  Not only do I not have to hear all the garbage, but perhaps he'll eventually give up calling me names... .   maybe not, but either way for me is a win.  I don't take the hit to my self esteem. 

[Grey Kitty]

  Yep, you hit gold with that, Rockylove!

Protecting yourself from the self-esteem hit is a clear win for you.

Stepping out helps him too--he is "dealing" with his own issues badly by yelling at you. You deprive him of that... .   and his issues are still there... .   you are actually forcing him to find another way of dealing with them. There is a good chance he'll find something more constructive

I wouldn't count on ever hearing a report like this personally... .   but my wife did (much later) thank me for doing this same sort of thing with her--it did push her into some growth that she is now grateful for.

So consider it to be win-win... .   and remember that sticking around is lose-lose.

[waverider]

This is good, and make sure you consistently follow through. You have made your reasons clear, but words are never enough once dysregulation occurs, only consistently applied actions, followed by no JADE as the reason has been explained upfront.

Sometimes it is said that boundaries dont need explanation just actions. I feel though that a statement of principle ahead of time, such as you have done, is helpful as you don't get sucked into JADE  as easily during or after enacting them. You can simply say you did whatever for the reasons already discussed and you are not going to go over it again. You are not trying to give reasons when they are in high defense mode.

You are right in that while you are leaving and the boundary is being taught you are not enduring the drama. I will say prepare to leave early when it is starting to head that way rather than wait until it is heated, and keep a short list of standby "things to do" so you dont feel as inconvenienced by leaving. Eventually you will start to sense these potential situations subconsciously and divert yourself away before even you or him realize an issue is brewing

[Rockylove]

I will say prepare to leave early when it is starting to head that way rather than wait until it is heated, and keep a short list of standby "things to do" so you dont feel as inconvenienced by leaving.

Unfortunately, he chooses really inconvenient times to be a jerk!  LOL  It's usually very late at night and after he's had way too much to drink.  He says that he goes on binges when he can't get something he "needs" to trip on.  He foolishly dared me not to drink for 2 weeks "... .   let's see how b*#chy you are when you can't have what you need to clear your head... .   "  I can't help but to laugh because this is way too easy and he'll find that I have no issues giving up alcohol and that clarity and sobriety go hand in hand for me.  I usually have a couple of glasses of wine in the evening and if I drink more than that, I'm fuzzy headed so I typically don't.

I asked him not to drink for the 2 weeks either (he's agreeable to that, but he's still smoking pot)  Oddly enough, the past 2 days have been really lovely.  He's actually applying for jobs and has the "grumpies" in check (these online applications can be unbearable and he's grumbling but not losing it!)  I'll let you know how he's doing by next week not drinking