He's contacted me. I'd like to try again. How do I do this? (Part 1)

[blooming]

Sorry for not being very active these past days and not responding to your replies to my latest post. It's been a hectic couple of days.

My ex messaged me saying that he had heard that I was already seeing another, I denied this (really don't understand where he heard that from because nothing like that is happening in the slightest) and he said that he was glad to hear that, because he thought it was hurt and he was a little shocked by it.

He then went on saying "sorry to bother you with this" and then talking about how it was weird that a year ago we went to a concert that day and that I was still his only Valentine and shouldn't we celebrate that?

I was weak. I caved. So I agreed to meeting up for drinks. He first proposed his place but I said I didn't want that and only wanted to meet at a local bar. This was the first time I saw him since our break-up the 5th of January.

We had quite a normal conversation, about what we were doing with our lives and also a little bit about how we were coping. We laughed quite a lot, it was quite nice. Then afterwards we said goodbye and gave eachother a long hug and he squeezed my hand. He also said "I want to propose stupid things again (aka going to his place) but I know it's not good for you" and I said that indeed it wasn't and that I felt it was a bit respectless. He said that that wasn't his intention and he didn't want to use me.

We parted ways. Then, when I got home, we talked a bit on whats app. About how it was weird having seen eachother like that and that it was quite confronting because it felt like we were really letting go and how I had still wished that he would want to try again. He said that he had thought about proposing that multiple times during our meet-up, but that he said it needed more time and that we could maybe meet up again in a few weeks, because everything we'd do now wouldn't work anyway.

He also said how he was so jealous of me moving on with my life. That he felt like I could meet someone new at any moment and that he was just stuck and his life was so boring and there was no way he'd meet someone. He also said that he didn't have the time for that and he didn't feel like doing that.

But then I heard today from a friend that he was seen with the same girl two times last week. Once in a supermarket doing groceries together and once at a club (dancing quite close to eachother and her touching him like there was something going on between them). That day he was spotted in the club was the same day he messaged me for the first time and invited me over to his house (not particulary for that evening though, I declined).

I feel so used. How could he say that I didn't have to worry because he wouldn't meet someone new because his life was so boring and he didn't have the time/energy for that, while he is seeing this girl? It hurts so bad. Who is this monster? How could he do this to me?

Should I confront him with it? And how should I do that? I am so hurt.

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[valet]

Sorry for your experience, blooming.

If you are truly trying to detach (this is the detaching board), I'd say that a confrontation would just be adding fuel to the fire.

It sounds to me like you're looking for closure, and that you think you'd get it by airing your grievances to him. We end up wanting accountability, apologies. In other words, we want to be right, and we want our pwBPD to agree, to put themselves aside and understand how they've hurt us... .in hopes that they'll change. I've been there. I know how it feels.

But what would really happen, knowing your ex? How do you think he'd react?

[blooming]

Sorry for your experience, blooming.

If you are truly trying to detach (this is the detaching board), I'd say that a confrontation would just be adding fuel to the fire.

It sounds to me like you're looking for closure, and that you think you'd get it by airing your grievances to him. We end up wanting accountability, apologies. In other words, we want to be right, and we want our pwBPD to agree, to put themselves aside and understand how they've hurt us... .in hopes that they'll change. I've been there. I know how it feels.

But what would really happen, knowing your ex? How do you think he'd react?

But now he thinks that he still has full power over me. He thinks "oh I told her about maybe trying again but that we should wait longer and have a drink again in a few weeks, so in that time she'll still mourn me and not move on". Because I think that is what he wants.

I just don't want him to get away with this. How could he tell me with a straight face that I shouldn't worry because he'd never meet someone new because his life is too boring, he hates dating apps and he doesn't have the time or energy, when in reality he is definitely seeing someone since they were spotted together two times in the course of three days?

I just can't understand how he could lie like that, how he could be fine with that.

I think how he'll react really depends on how I confront him with it. Maybe if I ask him to explain in a calm way he'll respond alright? My friends say that I should say something like "Hey, I don't like how you are trying to keep me on a leash. On top of that I heard you're seeing someone again and I'm not in for your two-faced games. I don't need a reaction, I just wanted to say that I don't want any contact for a while" But I think he'll get very angry at this.

I thought maybe more something like "Hey, I'm a little bit at a loss right now. I heard that you were seen with the same girl twice last week, in the supermarkt and in the club. Can you explain that too me? It seems very contradictory to what you told me on wednesday. It gives me the idea that you're trying to keep me on a leash and I don't like that.

I also saw that he decoupled his last.fm account from his spotify account this tuesday, so I can't see what music he's listening to anymore. Very odd that he would do that right now.

[blooming]

Hi everyone,

So wednesday I met up for drinks with my ex uBPD. It was the first time I saw him since our break-up in January. He messaged me that day saying that he had heard that I was already seeing someone new (I have no idea how he could have heard anything like that since nothing remotely like that has happened). I denied and he said he was glad to hear that because he had been startled by it and found it odd and "not very chill". He then went on saying something like I was still his only Valentine and shouldn't we celebrate that? I caved and we decided to meet up for drinks after my singing lesson.

We talked over a beer, about our lives and what we were doing and also a bit about how we were coping. He said he had a hard time moving on because he was too busy to really think about it. When we parted ways (after about an hour of talking) we hugged goodbye. He said "I want to propose something stupid (aka me going to his house with him), but I know that's not good for you." I said indeed it wasn't and he said he really didn't want to use me, that it wasn't just about sex. I still declined and went home.

When I got home we talked for a bit on whats app. I said that it was nice to have seen him but also quite confronting and painful, since I realised that we were really letting go of what we had had. He said that he also thought that was really painful. That he was really jealous of me because it seemed like I was moving on with my life, doing lot's of new stuff and could meet someone new any moment. Whereas his life was standing still and boring and he would never meet someone new. He then said that he had thought reconciliation at least 5 times during our conservation but that it needed more time and if we could meet up for drinks again in a few weeks? I agreed to that. He then went on saying that I shouldn't worry about him meeting someone new because he didn't have the time or energy for anything like that. And that I could always message him but he would try to not contact me for a while.

So that conversation gave me a lot of hope. It felt like he was really genuine and it wasn't just about getting me in his bed.

But then I spoke to a friend of mine yesterday who said that she had seen him with the same girl twice that week. Once at the supermarket and once dancing together at a club (it looked like there was something going on). So he has right out lied about "not having energy/time to meet someone new" and that "his life is too boring for that and I shouldn't worry about that". Because he is already seeing someone. I feel quite used. How could he say all those things to me? Talking about reconciliation, when is seeing someone?

I don't know what to do. I don't understand his behaviour at all anymore. Should I confront him with it? And how? I really want to know the truth now.

So, in summary:
1. Had drinks with uBPD ex
2. He said he was jealous of me moving on and his life standing still, that there was no way he was going to meet someone new so I shouldn't worry
3. He talked about reconciliation, but that it needed more time and proposed meeting up again for drinks in a few weeks
4. But he was seen twice with the same girl last week, and it didn't seem like they were just friends
5. What should I do?

[araneina]

It's not worth it blooming.  These people are walking contradictions.  When I was with my ex he said things like "I will never do a long distance relationship ever again," (he was in a LD relationship with his only long-term ex) and "Eventually in every relationship my brain says "run away!" and I destroy them.  Every time."

Yet now he's dating a girl who lives 6 hours away from him.  When I confronted him about dating a girl mere days after we broke up, a girl I KNOW he was communicating with while we were sleeping together, he eviscerated me.  It sucked, blooming, and I totally regret confronting him.

He doesn't know what he wants.  Your ex doesn't either.  :)o you want to risk being hurt again by confronting your ex?  :)o you think he'll respond rationally to your confrontation, or do you think he'll behave like my ex, which was to blame me for everything and sling insults at me?  

My friend said - ":)on't confront him about it, you'll regret it," but I ignored her advice and did it anyways.  I regret it.

Good luck to you. <3

[Skip]

So, in summary:
1. Had drinks with uBPD ex
2. He said he was jealous of me moving on and his life standing still, that there was no way he was going to meet someone new so I shouldn't worry
3. He talked about reconciliation, but that it needed more time and proposed meeting up again for drinks in a few weeks
4. But he was seen twice with the same girl last week, and it didn't seem like they were just friends
5. What should I do?

So, in summary:
uBPDbf and I are broken up
1. Had drinks with uBPDbf ex
2. He said he was jealous of me moving on and his life standing still, that there was no way he was going to meet someone new so I shouldn't worry (translation: you're strong and independent and that's attractive)
3. He talked about reconciliation, but that it needed more time and proposed meeting up again for drinks in a few weeks (translation: tepid interest)
I would like to reconcile
4. But he was seen twice with the same girl last week, and it didn't seem like they were just friends (translation: confirmation of tepid interest)
5. What should I do?

Let it go.

Ouch! I know.

The scenario is that you are broken up (so he is free to date), he is showing limited interest in getting back together, and you two have a "maybe" drinks date in the next "maybe" few weeks.

The door was shut. Now it is cracked slightly open. Don't blow it up.

He said he was jealous of me moving on and his life standing still

Translation. You getting on without him is alluring and enticing. Embrace that and work on it. Its good for you and it is appealing to him. Take it further. Go on a coffee date with someone.  Change your tempo from greiving ex, to "getting on with life".

One thing that may help is to accept that the old relationship is dead forever. It is done. There is no going back to it.

Your hope is in a new relationship with him - or with someone else. With a different you. One that he finds more attractive, you find more attractive, everyone finds more attractive. One that has his number and is too smart to ride up and down on his roller coaster.

Like any new relationship, everything is fragile.  It may catch fire or it may go cold.  Wear your best shoes.  

[gotbushels]

Hi blooming  

I haven't got a lot to add to what Skip said, so I'd just like to support you a little here. I do agree with a lot of what he said, especially this part:

Ouch! I know.

Accepting how things are, accepting the things that happened, being sad, that's hard and can be a painful process. I would like to highlight the hope that someone on the board shared with me last time--periods like this actually present you with valuable breathing space to think forward as to how you think your relationship will develop from here. Whatever choice you make, it allows you to get some clearance from the FOG to make choices that are more conscious to you.

The breathing space--I used some of these times to think through, and then I chose continued pursuit of the relationship with the pwBPD, and I don't regret what I did even though it wasn't always a "with partner" outcome.   Part of what helped was going through actually accepting how things are, then going beyond it with the additional awareness. Accepting a situation doesn't mean you'll choose not to pursue a relationship later. I hope that helps while you're acting on Skip's suggestions.  

I caved and we decided to meet up for drinks after my singing lesson.

It can make us feel disappointed with ourselves when we set out to not put ourselves into situations, but then end up doing it anyway. It can be hard keeping distance with exs shortly after breakup.

... .I know that's not good for you." I said indeed it wasn't and he said he really didn't want to use me, that it wasn't just about sex. I still declined and went home.

I think that's looking out for yourself here which is a good thing. Declining on your own choice and following through accurately I think is really good.

So that conversation gave me a lot of hope.

Of course, if some part of me wanted to be in a relationship with someone interesting, then they expressed they were considering it, then I'd feel some hope.

It felt like he was really genuine and it wasn't just about getting me in his bed.

Sometimes with sincere expressions, we can feel trust of someone in a particular moment, so that makes sense.

Because he is already seeing someone. I feel quite used. How could he say all those things to me? Talking about reconciliation, when is seeing someone?

Given what happened during the meeting, me too--I too would feel used. There are a lot of moving parts in your example; there's some simultaneous signal-giving to two people he's interested in here, and a lie to lead you to think you're his only interest--so I'd also feel like I was being played off someone else. It's personal to my feelings, so I'll share that I don't like this kind of thing.

Good luck!

[Skip]

Good post, gotbushels.

[JNChell]

Hi blooming. Whether you confront him or not is completely your decision to make. Before you make your decision to do so or not, maybe sit with your feelings on this for a bit before making a decision. Try to practice some calm mindfulness and try to center what you’re feeling around you, not him. I’m curious, though. You mentioned that he has been seen with another woman, and that he wants to wait a couple of weeks before you meet up again. Do you think it’s possible that he is ready to start the devaluation stage with this woman and is testing the recycle waters with you? Is it a possibility that he’s been grooming you emotionally for a recycle? I know how much you’re hurting right now and I’m sorry for you. It doesn’t feel good at all. If you choose to confront him there’s a very good chance that he’ll be dishonest. No one deserves to be lied to and led on. Right now, it feels like detaching is the hardest part in these relationships. At least from my experience. We’re here for you, blooming. Please let us know what you decide, and most importantly, be kind to yourself.

[once removed]

presumably, you want to confront him to voice your hurt, and/or have that hurt validated. thats natural, id feel hoodwinked too. i see a few scenarios:

1. he says "okay. guilty as charged." maybe he says hes sorry. that wont do much to alleviate your hurt.
2. he denies it, whether its the case or not
3. he responds to your getting mad at him by getting mad at you... .people often respond that way, especially in these circumstances.

i think theres something to be said for not letting an ex see your hurt post breakup. i was a wreck, but my ex never saw that, and it helped me keep going. as has been said, hes seeing you as strong and independent right now. what would a strong and independent blooming do?
Continued here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321797.msg12943069#msg12943069

[Zinnia21]

I really feel for you being stuck in this awful cycle.
My ex / on and off / never quite goes away / BPD boyfriend / ex boyfriend has always had those jealous overtones through everything. It sounds very familiar to me, the whole - I’m jealous that you could move on and there’s hope in your life, etc. There’s a self defeating self fulfilling prophecy in BPD fear of abandonment.
If things got too dysfunctional between you, and then it ended because of this, or because of his fear and jealousy, it’s likley he senses that he’s not fit for the relationship with you because of his issues, despite the feelings that are between you. He might then fill the gaps with someone else, afraid of being alone. But also afraid of trying to maintain a proper relationship with you, or anyone. So you can’t read too far into what his feelings for her might be, or what type of connection they might have. Although I don’t know his history in this way...

If he’s coming and going over and over from your life, rest assured he’s never too far away. Despite the throw away comments he may use that sound detached. A BPD will cycle through from obsessive love, to devaluing, to detaching, and then back around to the start again, as you know. And also the place they get stuck is fearing abandonment so much that they then abandon you, over and over. Which is the most un fun thing in the universe!
Use this knowledge to realise he’s just somewhere in his cycle, it’s not to do with you personally, or to do with how he feels about you. And you can’t change that cycle, he can only do it when he’s ready to work on it or sees that it needs improving and wants to make his life better.
And furthermore, use that knowledge to try your best to rebuild your own life, it’s stepping stones and you can’t force it to happen straight away. And yes the communication and meet ups feel like set backs, and you get frustrated with yourself over it. I know that all too well! But these things happen. He can’t settle back into the relationship with you right now because his cycles are too repetitive and fear based, from what I’m hearing you say about him. So, knowing that he’s there, somewhere,... try give yourself a well deserved break from his cycles and his judgement about where you’re at with your life. You can’t read into the future, but trust me, if you work on making space for yourself, you will naturally start to live without him, and be happy. Don’t play out all the tragic possibilities about him in your mind (like I did)! Just try your best for now to find hope and fun in other places. You never know the great experiences you can have in the meanwhile. Just let your heart decide later what it wants to do, because he doesn’t hold all that power, even though it can feel that way... but You have choices too, I hope you find some peace of some sort soon, but don’t force it x

[blooming]

Thank you all very much for replying! I'm not sure if I'll be able to reply to you all individually, but know that I have read every comment and every comment has helped me.

So, update time (he really wants to recycle again I think):

Quite a lot has happened since I last posted. I asked him about him being seen with that same  girl twice on friday, but he said that it was his hous mate. Then I met up with a friend on friday and she said that she saw him with a girl in the club two weeks ago (so this is a different time then the time he was seen which I already asked him about). She saw that they were together (it didn't seem like there were other people with them, it seemed like it was just the two of them) and that they kissed and that they left together. I also asked my ex about this (since we were still having a conversation via whatsapp on friday and saturday) and he said that it was just a one time thing, that he was drunk and had kissed a girl but that nothing else had happened and that they haven't spoken since. I want to believe him, but if that was the case, why would they be going out with just the two of them? I just feel like he isn't telling the truth.

Yesterday he started messaging me again if I wanted to come over to his house and that he really missed me and he wanted to see me and that he didn't mean it in a disrespectful way and that if he didn't know that it wouldn't make things harder then he wouldn't have asked. I still declined (multiple times because he kept persisting), because I just don't think it would be smart. When he realised I really wouldn't come he got a bit pissed again and said that this was a perfect example of the last months of our relationship, since it was all about me.

Then this morning he asked me to have dinner together tonight. I said I had doubts about whether that was a good idea, because we were still hurting and it would probably be too early to try again or something. But he persisted and I caved. So I'm having dinner with him in about an hour. I'm very nervous. I don't know how I will resist him.

Do you have tips on how to handle this? And I just don't know what to do. I know he wants to recycle very much. I know part of me wants it, but I also know part of me doesn't, because I'm scared of how he will hurt me again. And I notice that I don't trust him anymore. I just don't believe he's telling the truth about those girls. And I know that in the past he's lied a lot to his exes about this kind of stuff.

I don't think I have a lot to lose, so I guess I'll just lay it all on the table and tell him all my doubts about whether he speaks the truth and whether I can trust him again and what would be different this time around. Because the last two times we tried again he just got fed up with me again after a week. It seemed like it was only about the chase. I don't want that gain.

But I have no idea if I'll be strong enough. I have no idea how he'll try to convince me. I have no idea how he will react to all my doubts and feelings. I'm kind of scared of how this evening will go actually.

[Skip]

I want to believe him, but if that was the case, why would they be going out with just the two of them? I just feel like he isn't telling the truth.

I mentioned this before and I know its hard, but you were broken up and he has every right to date, right. Where this gets messy is that you are asking a judgmental question (there is only one right answer) and he is providing you a distorted answer.

There is a reason why he was doing what he was doing and a reason why he is trying to reconnect. What has brought you to this point is indeed messy. Of course he dated this girl. Life is messy.

You have to decide before you go out tonight if you want to believe in him or if you don't. Good mental health is hard and this is one of those times.

If your requirement is that he didn't connect with someone else, then walk away.  If you can accept this, then don't beat it to death right now. Save the conversation for a later date and be open for the true story and be clear that it is what you want to hear.

When he realised I really wouldn't come he got a bit pissed again and said that this was a perfect example of the last months of our relationship, since it was all about me.

You really wanted him to talk to you. Now he is. Don't shut it down. Just pace yourself (don't jump into bed). Listen with and open heart and an open mind (don't be naive and jump headfirst into a repeat of last time).

Recycle only work when both parties make significant changes. Nothing changes without this change.

Good luck!

[blooming]

So yesterday wasn't what I had hoped for and I hate myself for doing something stupid.

First we did groceries together and cooked and had dinner and had wine and we were having good conversation, both light and more serious. About decisions we had made in life and had regretted and stuff like that. Sometimes we spoke for a bit about us and how to proceed, but never really longer than a few sentences and it was very vague.

But then suddenly the conversation turned, I don't remember how exactly. We were talking about what we wanted and he said that we should wait longer and I said something like "but what will that change?" and "I'm scared you'll be moving on without me.", both things I shouldn't have said. And then we started talking about what had gone wrong in our relationship and that he had felt that there was always an issue with me and that he just couldn't handle my issues on top of his, he had enough on his mind as it was. And he didn't want an overanalysed relationship, so he said he didn't want to be together as long as I was seeing a therapist. And he said he didn't want a girlfriend who called herself ugly. And he said that I was making the problem way bigger than it was and that my life was fine and that I shouldn't be such a wuss about it. He also said I was spoiled.

I said that if there was a way to solve a problem and to make myself feel better than why wouldn't I do it. Why wouldn't I go to a therapist if I already noticed the improvements now. I said I wouldn't stop going to the therapist for him. I said I understood that he didn't like a girlfriend who called herself ugly and that I understood that he couldn't handle my problems on top of his.

Then he suddenly didn't really want to talk to me anymore and we said goodby in a very cold way and I left the house and went home.

Then he messaged me saying "Sorry for this ending, I would have like to have seen it differently, but I can't do anything with this. Nothing has changed". And we talked about regretting the way we parted and that we would just like to hug eachother and I did something very stupid and accepted his invitation to come back to him. So we hugged eachother all night. We didn't have real sex, but it was close. Then this morning we had breakfast together and both left for uni.

I feel so stupid. Why did I cave? And I hate the way this conversation happened. Is there any way I can change the outcome? Change his mind? I just can't believe that after everything that happened yesterday evening, it is still over now.

[blooming]

I mentioned this before and I know its hard, but you were broken up and he has every right to date, right. Where this gets messy is that you are asking a judgmental question (there is only one right answer) and he is providing you a distorted answer.

There is a reason why he was doing what he was doing and a reason why he is trying to reconnect. What has brought you to this point is indeed messy. Of course he dated this girl. Life is messy.

You have to decide before you go out tonight if you want to believe in him or if you don't. Good mental health is hard and this is one of those times.

If your requirement is that he didn't connect with someone else, then walk away.  If you can accept this, then don't beat it to death right now. Save the conversation for a later date and be open for the true story and be clear that it is what you want to hear.

You really wanted him to talk to you. Now he is. Don't shut it down. Just pace yourself (don't jump into bed). Listen with and open heart and an open mind (don't be naive and jump headfirst into a repeat of last time).

Recycle only work when both parties make significant changes. Nothing changes without this change.

Good luck!

Thank you Skip! As you can read above I did something stupid and the conversation didn't go like I hoped it would go. Is there any way I can reverse this? Any way I can make him see that there is still hope for us and that things have changed. Just as soon as I saw him I wanted him back so badly that I said things I now regret. I don't know what to do.

[gotbushels]

Hi blooming   

I think you've got some good suggestions from the others to work on, and I'd like to give some support here. 

... .
I did something stupid ... .
the conversation didn't go like I hoped it would ... .
Is there any way I can reverse this?
Just as soon as I saw him I wanted him back so badly ... .

It seems as though you have some compulsion to be in relationship with someone right NOW. I'm seems like you're feeling to want to grasp at situations. It's not comfortable because there's often a sensation of loss hanging over our heads when we're like that. We're hanging our hearts so closely to this idea of "being together in relationship" that every single thing means a disproportionate amount to you. I understand that.

Tara Brach Video - 2 mins - click image

 

I mentioned this before and I know its hard, but you were broken up and he has every right to date, right.

You can use this too.

How? You set some of the pace. Drive the thing you want--go above responding and reacting to what you're given.

It looks like this: e.g., say you allocate 1 block of 15 minutes to inventorying yourself, then he texts you an invitation to meet--PAUSE. You don't have to meet this weekend. You can take some distance to figure your things out--it's perfectly okay to do so. Simple. You actually do less because you aren't automatically re-scheduling because he asks you to meet. You get to both skip a step and be more effective.

You get what you want (completing your 15 minute thing) regardless of what his interest is. What's more is there's a chance you can increase his interest; you convey that "she knows what's important to her"--she's not going to fumble around when he proposes a meeting.

... .left for uni.

Emphasise to yourself to do, rather than say. If you tell your professor you're going to get an A--then see that's completely different from actually sitting the paper and achieving it.  Yes, relationships can be tough, and some more than others. We're here to support you through this.

[isilme]

blooming,

I have to second that you seem to want A relationship, and this ended one seems to be attractive simply for the sake of convenience and familiarity.

... .As you can read above I did something stupid and the conversation didn't go like I hoped it would go. Is there any way I can reverse this? Any way I can make him see that there is still hope for us and that things have changed. Just as soon as I saw him I wanted him back so badly that I said things I now regret. I don't know what to do.

Also, something I see a lot with Nons and their pwBPD, is an expectation that a conversation will magically be had that will communicate everything needed (or just enough) to get past dysregulation and drama.  It usually won't. 

Of course the conversation did not go how you wanted.  A pwBPD is not wired to where conversations do a whole lot in the long run - their emotions are their facts, and these flip and flop all over the place, often based on things we never even know is happening inside them.  Trying to explain your feelings, why you have done things, what you wish was different can just come across as invalidation 9and will be disregarded or sp[ark anger) or JADEing (and will be disregarded and spark anger).  I will be confused to find H has initiated a fight, and only later find out WHY he was dysregulating (often it has little to do directly with me or anything about me, but more with HIS perceptions of the world, colored strongly by his emotional disability). 

So- odds are the initial breakup was very little about anything you have actually ever said or done, regardless of what he STATES are the problem.  He sees you as being more together than him, and assumes you will want to "do better"  and leave him, and with that BPD fear of abandonment, he will leave you first so you can't abandon him.  He feels things and will prpject them onto you in conversations, HE hasn't changed but will state that YOU have not.  But, if you are willing to wait in the wings, he will be perfectly happy keeping you in a "break glass in case of loneliness" emergency and come back as long as you supply the feelings he wants, and will leave once those feelings flip flop again.

Actions speak a lot louder to a pwBPD than any words ever seem to do. 

Your actions are giving him permission to both date around and come back to you.  If you do not like this current situation, YOU have to be the one to put a boundary around it.  Say, I will only go to dinner with you/let you spend the night if we are exclusive.  Anything less is unfair to me.  Because this seems to be a big part of what is bothering you - not that you are broken up somehow but still engaging in dating-style activities, but that it is not exclusive.  Your boundary will have to be decided about what you will allow, and what is a no-go.  This is not an ultimatum meant to be a way to "change him".  It's simply you admitting what you want and don't want to yourself, and what you will and won't tolerate from a partner/potential partner.  Do you mind having things "open" for a while?  For how long?  Do you plan to maybe also date others?  Do you want to go back to being just with your ex?  Do you want HIM as a person, human being, as someone special whomore than not makes you feel special and good?  Or are you feeling sad and lonely and kinda just want A person, and he's convinient at the time?

What do you want?  This is the #1 question to answer first, as honestly as you can.  Everything comes from there. 

[JNChell]

Hi blooming. I typically reside on the detaching board. Your post started there, I had commented on it and saw that your thread is here now. By reading all of it, you have put yourself through quite a gauntlet. How are you feeling? If I can even try to relate, the desperation has had you on the floor balling. Literally. You can’t focus on your daily activities. Our minds are so distracted that we can’t really carry on a conversation with friends. Our minds are in crisis mode. The meeting didn’t go how you wanted it to. The advice and guidance that you have received here told you as much. blooming, I have been told as much before as well. I went back, and I got hurt all over again. And again. And again. As long as you keep this going, these horrid feelings won’t stop. Also, Skip is spot on. When you get the urge for him, simply come here.

[blooming]

It seems as though you have some compulsion to be in relationship with someone right NOW. I'm seems like you're feeling to want to grasp at situations. It's not comfortable because there's often a sensation of loss hanging over our heads when we're like that. We're hanging our hearts so closely to this idea of "being together in relationship" that every single thing means a disproportionate amount to you. I understand that.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Of course I'm not sure, but it doesn't feel like I want to be in a relationship with someone right now! I'm actually quite enjoying being on my own, having time to see all of my friends again and only doing the stuff I like! I haven't downloaded any dating app or anything like that because I just don't feel up to that. I'm also doing quite good mentally/emotionally at the moment and feel like I'm finding the old me back a little. It's just that I have such an enormous weak spot for my ex (who is also my first boyfriend by the way) that I can't control myself whenever he shows any interest and all the thoughts I've had about it being better that we are seperated and that I can be myself again now just disappear.

It looks like this: e.g., say you allocate 1 block of 15 minutes to inventorying yourself, then he texts you an invitation to meet--PAUSE. You don't have to meet this weekend. You can take some distance to figure your things out--it's perfectly okay to do so. Simple. You actually do less because you aren't automatically re-scheduling because he asks you to meet. You get to both skip a step and be more effective.

You get what you want (completing your 15 minute thing) regardless of what his interest is. What's more is there's a chance you can increase his interest; you convey that "she knows what's important to her"--she's not going to fumble around when he proposes a meeting.

This makes a lot of sense! I'll try this. Actually we decided together that it needs more time and we won't have contact for at least a week now. He says his head is just too full at the moment and it isn't the right moment for him. I think it's a good sign that he thinks about it this way? This means he actually takes it seriously and wants us to succeed this time? I  guess?

[blooming]

I have to second that you seem to want A relationship, and this ended one seems to be attractive simply for the sake of convenience and familiarity.

Why do you think it seems that way? I'm really curious. Because I myself feel like I'm actually quite fine on my own and the idea of being in a relationship again actually makes me more nervous than the idea of being on my own, which doesn't mean I don't want it of course, but I just don't know if it's the right thing to do. And I'm really enjoying finally having the time to do what I want to do again and it's not like I'm frantically searching for a replacement for him, I'm really not interested in other guys at all. He also is my first boyfriend, I'm not really someone who's always in relationships, I'm really good at being single I think.

Also, something I see a lot with Nons and their pwBPD, is an expectation that a conversation will magically be had that will communicate everything needed (or just enough) to get past dysregulation and drama.  It usually won't. 

Of course the conversation did not go how you wanted.  A pwBPD is not wired to where conversations do a whole lot in the long run - their emotions are their facts, and these flip and flop all over the place, often based on things we never even know is happening inside them.  Trying to explain your feelings, why you have done things, what you wish was different can just come across as invalidation and will be disregarded or sp[ark anger) or JADEing (and will be disregarded and spark anger).  I will be confused to find H has initiated a fight, and only later find out WHY he was dysregulating (often it has little to do directly with me or anything about me, but more with HIS perceptions of the world, colored strongly by his emotional disability). 

Yes this makes a lot of sense! I often notice that it kind of feels like we are on different wavelengths because his mind works different from mine. At least I do think the conversation had a function, because he really opened up to me about how he's feeling and he hasn't done that a lot. So now I can understand him and his actions a little better, which helps.

So- odds are the initial breakup was very little about anything you have actually ever said or done, regardless of what he STATES are the problem.  He sees you as being more together than him, and assumes you will want to "do better"  and leave him, and with that BPD fear of abandonment, he will leave you first so you can't abandon him.  He feels things and will project them onto you in conversations, HE hasn't changed but will state that YOU have not.  But, if you are willing to wait in the wings, he will be perfectly happy keeping you in a "break glass in case of loneliness" emergency and come back as long as you supply the feelings he wants, and will leave once those feelings flip flop again.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Although I'm not really sure what he wants anymore now. Because yesterday I messaged him that I would want to give it another shot, but only if he would want it too and only if we take it slow and if we agree with eachother that it's exclusive. He said that he would want to try again but he thinks we need to give it more time, because his head is just too full now and there's no space for a relationship now. So we agreed to not be in contact for at least a week now. So what does this mean? Is this a case of putting me on the shelf in case of emergency? Or is it a good sign that he wants to take things slow and is really thinking about whether it will work or not? Also, I know that he hasn't seen anyone but me/his friends/his parents (so no other girls) since wednesday last week, so I guess that's a good sign in favour of him? That he's speaking the truth when he says that he notices that he's not interested in other women and not doing anything like that.

Actions speak a lot louder to a pwBPD than any words ever seem to do. 

Your actions are giving him permission to both date around and come back to you.  If you do not like this current situation, YOU have to be the one to put a boundary around it.  Say, I will only go to dinner with you/let you spend the night if we are exclusive.  Anything less is unfair to me.  Because this seems to be a big part of what is bothering you - not that you are broken up somehow but still engaging in dating-style activities, but that it is not exclusive.  Your boundary will have to be decided about what you will allow, and what is a no-go.  This is not an ultimatum meant to be a way to "change him".  It's simply you admitting what you want and don't want to yourself, and what you will and won't tolerate from a partner/potential partner.  Do you mind having things "open" for a while?  For how long?  Do you plan to maybe also date others?  Do you want to go back to being just with your ex?  Do you want HIM as a person, human being, as someone special whomore than not makes you feel special and good?  Or are you feeling sad and lonely and kinda just want A person, and he's convinient at the time?

What do you want?  This is the #1 question to answer first, as honestly as you can.  Everything comes from there. 

So I set that ultimatum to him and he agreed to it (without any doubts), but I still don't know if I can trust him because I know that in the past he has cheated on his girlfriends and he's quite a good liar. Although I have no reason to think that he has done anything like that during our relationship (except for the fact that he downloaded a dating app and started chatting to someone there, but I found out about that), so maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think that I'm feeling sad and lonely at the moment, I'm actually doing quite alright on my own and enjoying spending more time with my friends and family and doing hobbies I haven't had the time for in these past years. So I don't think it's just a person I want.

Yes, I miss my ex, I miss our relationship and how good he made me feel and how happy we were with eachother. I miss his company, our good conversations about life and what interests us. But I also know that I don't miss his controlling habits, how negative he can be about people. Things like that. So it has two sides I guess.

[Skip]

Yes, I miss my ex, I miss our relationship and how good he made me feel and how happy we were with each other. I miss his company, our good conversations about life and what interests us. But I also know that I don't miss his controlling habits, how negative he can be about people. Things like that. So it has two sides I guess.

First relationships are special. It sounds like this one has been all that. It's good that you can see the upside and the downside, every relationship has one.  Sometimes we get caught in what people call too good to leave, too bad to stay and it is complex and it takes time to sort that out.

I know that he hasn't seen anyone but me/his friends/his parents (so no other girls) since Wednesday last week, so I guess that's a good sign in favour of him? That he's speaking the truth when he says that he notices that he's not interested in other women and not doing anything like that.

It could be that the other girl put on the breaks. I'm not suggesting she did, but he has been dating and this stuff happens a lot. In Internet dating, many people are talking to a multitude of others, interests can shift quickly when another person enters the mix. Again, not suggesting this is what is happening - but this dating 101 in 2018.

Although I'm not really sure what he wants anymore now. Because yesterday I messaged him that I would want to give it another shot, but only if he would want it too and only if we take it slow and if we agree with each other that it's exclusive. He said that he would want to try again but he thinks we need to give it more time, because his head is just too full now and there's no space for a relationship now. So we agreed to not be in contact for at least a week now. So what does this mean? Is this a case of putting me on the shelf in case of emergency? Or is it a good sign that he wants to take things slow and is really thinking about whether it will work or not?

What if both are true? They can be. You two are in "uncommitted dating zone" and this is often how that "zone" plays out. There is a great deal of uncertainty.

I think the biggest error you could make right now is to think you two are "on the way to reconciliation" zone... .you are still broken up and he has every right to date and has dated.

A lot can happen here in both directions, right now. It might involve more that just what you and he are talking about.

So I set that ultimatum to him and he agreed to it (without any doubts), but I still don't know if I can trust him because I know that in the past he has cheated on his girlfriends and he's quite a good liar.

... .too good to leave, too bad to stay

[blooming]

First relationships are special. It sounds like this one has been all that. It's good that you can see the upside and the downside, every relationship has one.  Sometimes we get caught in what people call too good to leave, too bad to stay and it is complex and it takes time to sort that out.

Yeah, that "too good to leave, too bad to stay" resonates with me. It's so crazy how quickly you get used to his snide remarks and mean words. How you let him say those things to you without really setting boundaries, just because you're scared you'll lose him when you set those boundaries.

It could be that the other girl put on the breaks. I'm not suggesting she did, but he has been dating and this stuff happens a lot. In Internet dating, many people are talking to a multitude of others, interests can shift quickly when another person enters the mix. Again, not suggesting this is what is happening - but this dating 101 in 2018.

Yeah but he literally told me that he wasn't seeing anyone and that his life was boring and he would not meet anyone now and that he didn't have the time or energy for that now. And I'm not sure if he's been dating. The girl he was seen twice with, was his roommate according to him. And the other girl he was seen once with, was just a girl he kissed once when he was drunk according to him (the friend that saw her with him said that it was just the two of them in the club together and no other friends and that they left together, so I don't think he's telling the truth there maybe). It's just so hard that I don't know what to believe anymore. I don't know if the fact that he says that he needs more time and space and we shouldn't have contact for a week is a good sign (he wants to do this right and knows that he's not in the right headspace right now and wants that to change) or a bad sign (he's keeping me on a leash while he's dating others).

I think the biggest error you could make right now is to think you two are "on the way to reconciliation" zone... .you are still broken up and he has every right to date and has dated.

A lot can happen here in both directions, right now. It might involve more that just what you and he are talking about.

Well, not every right maybe, because he has said to me that he's not interested in that and he denies all accusations, so if he would be doing it, he would be lying to me, which isn't very nice of him. And I know he expects me to not date with anyone.

[blooming]

Hi blooming. I typically reside on the detaching board. Your post started there, I had commented on it and saw that your thread is here now. By reading all of it, you have put yourself through quite a gauntlet. How are you feeling? If I can even try to relate, the desperation has had you on the floor balling. Literally. You can’t focus on your daily activities. Our minds are so distracted that we can’t really carry on a conversation with friends. Our minds are in crisis mode. The meeting didn’t go how you wanted it to. The advice and guidance that you have received here told you as much. blooming, I have been told as much before as well. I went back, and I got hurt all over again. And again. And again. As long as you keep this going, these horrid feelings won’t stop. Also, Skip is spot on. When you get the urge for him, simply come here.

Yeah, not feeling great indeed. He's on my mind again all the time. I'm looking at his spotify and facebook account again, trying to figure out what it means that he's listening to romantic music in the evening and that he's not online on facebook during that time (is he with someone?). It's quite tiring. It's just so difficult, I just can't let him go. Although I know he's not treating me right now, because he's keeping me on a leash.

[blooming]

So I met up with my ex (uBPD) twice last week, once for a drink and once for dinner (and eventually spent the night). The second time we talked a lot about what went wrong in the relationship and it first he came to the conclusion that nothing had changed. He says he can't handle my problems on top of his own (he's not feeling the best) and I have to agree that I asked too much of him during our relationship. It wasn't my best year, mentally or physically, and he had to help me through all that. Now he's the one not doing well (very stressed, weeks seem like days for him, he can't sleep etc), but I can't really be there for him and that's hard. It's also hard because he's not really a talker, so he keeps his feelings mostly to himself.

Anyway, the day after we had dinner together I asked him what he wanted and that if he didn't want a reconciliation then of course I would respect that, but then it would be best to stop with contacting each other, since it would only make things harder. He said that he thinks we need to give it more time, that he notices that now his head is "waaaay to full with everything and more". So he suggested contacting eachother again in a week or so.

So is this a good sign or a bad sign? I really don't understand what he wants from me and I don't know what to do. Is he keeping me on a leash? He says he's not seeing anyone else, that he's not interested in other women, that he doesn't have the time/energy for that. But on the other hand he has been seen kissing a girl in the club (he said he was just drunk and it was just a one time thing) and leaving together with her/it seemed like they were there with just the two of them, no other friends (he says nothing but the kiss happened and that they're not in contact anymore). I just don't know if I can trust him. I'm scared he's being dishonest and keeping me on a leash. Why is he being so vague? Why can't he show me that he actually wants me back?

[MyBPD_friend]

Hi Blooming, I've been following your story, I'm pretty new to the subject of BPD myself.
This post reminds me very much of my friend. my friendship with a BPD woman is not a intimate or romantic RS.

I'm also trying to understand my friend, which is very exhausting and difficult.

When I met my friend (33) the first time last year, we've had a great night together, dancing and talking. She was extremely emotional to me, so was I.
However, she started kissing a guy she's been talking to while I danced, that went on for more than an hour.
When I confronted her with ther behaviour, she responded (SMS) that she starts kissing when she had too much alcohol.
She is in a 17 year long lasting relationship with her bf, I'm married and love my wife.

Her traits of BPD seem very strong, looking at her behaviour towards me and other people. We live about three hours apart from each other.

My story is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=105455;sa=showPosts;start=10

and here:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321021.msg12940736#msg12940736

There is a special connection between us, due to our trauma in childhood, she developped BPD and I became a whole person, which took many many years and a lot of struggle.
She did NC or the silent and abusive treatment. Onl after having received my long letter, complaining about her ST and abusive behaviour and explaining what frienship normally means (in detail) she resonded a minute after my last SMS last week. She made sure to respond fast to me and to talk to me.
I know, with BPD, that doesn't mean much for our future friendship, she was in a good mood, her 'baby' sister of 27 just had a baby born, and she was happy with and for her visiting her in Austria. My friend lives near the German border in Holland. She escaped from the war in Serbia at age 8 on her own to Holland (leaving the family).

All my friends who know about her (those I told), including my wife, every one, even psychologists said should run away and stay away from her.

But that's not me, I try to understand , even things that are very difficult to understand and things that might look very crazy. I did built up a lot of understanding for BPD people, and doing all that can really hurt - I know.

What counts for me is, I really like her very much, as a close friend. That's the reason why I don't give up easily.

I do know, that this is a very different situation compared to yours as it's your ex and you still seem to love and care about him.

My amateur advise is, do your things, don't get too emotional, live your life and see what happens, see if he can change a bit to the better.
At some point you probably need to make a decision what's best for you and to open up your life for other options.

Best wishes from Germany

PS: perhaps it would be good to read this text if you haven't done it already.
https://www.dailystrength.org/group/physical-emotional-abuse/discussion/lonly-child

This text really helped me a lot to understand myself and my motives not to give up that friend - yet.

[randomuser94]

Hello

I've been trough this 3 times so far. Now we are in the 3rd "i need space->let's break-up for a while". There's a guide on this site that should help you to understand why they need space/time and how to give it to them.

First 2 times she needed space she just kissed with other guys. It was a shock when i found out as I took it as her moving on. She came back to me.  3rd time was strike trough my heart as i've found she had sex multiple times with her "new partner".
  Now I'm at the crossroads. She took some space and failed to give it to her. I've found out that she had sex multiple times shortly after she broke-up with me and broke the No Contact rule. I'm not sure if our relation will return as her mother and friends despise me. We saw eachother few times in secret. She confesed her love for me yet her actions prove otherwise...
  I just have to give her time and see where this goes. Right now it looks dead by the consequences of our "fight", but the feelings are still there for both of us

  The biggest pain in those relations is that when the stress level is high, you have to let them go and accept that they will run for a while with another partner.

[JNChell]

Hi blooming. Thanks for keeping the dialogue open with us. You described your feelings as being kept on a leash. I have a very direct and pointed question for you. If that is the case, do you enjoy, and do you feel that you, or anyone else for that matter, deserves to be kept on a leash? I already know the answer to this. Please sit with that for a while. pwBPD can drain us of our self worth if we allow them to. I have succumbed to more than one of these types. I understand how you’re feeling and the confusion and uncertainty that you’re experiencing. Introspect is paramount. How is this current situation benefiting you and making your life better... .FOR YOU? Be kind to yourself, blooming.

[Skip]

Although I know he's not treating me right now, because he's keeping me on a leash.

I don't think this is a constructive way to look at the situation. Would you be more at peace if he went back to "no contact" or you went to "no contact"?

No. You would be upset. Look at your old posts.

FACT: What you are upsetting you is not that he is talking with you, you are frustrated that he is not ready to move forward. It's important to see this difference.

You don't want to sabotage yourself in any way right now.

FACT: He is seeing other people. I don't know more that what you are telling us, but all the actions point to that. How often, how serious, how many, how long... .that is unclear.

Don't fool yourself. Have your eyes wide open. He is weighing his options and he is going to go with the option that makes him feel best. That might be you. That might be Randi. That might be working Tinder for a while. Right now, he feels he has options. You have confirmed that you are ready when he is. He doesn't want to limit his options right now and commit to you. He doesn't feel that need.

Accepting that this is the situation is the first step in deciding what is best for you and what actions you should take.

Hard, biting reality? Yes. This is a hard situation to be in.

Two things for sure.

1) Getting together and confronting that past and what he is doing since the breakup is not going to be attractive to him. It will be better to have fun and reconnect to the sides that both of you like.

2) Jumping at breadcrumbs, booty calls, and rededicating yourself to him, while he plays the field is not going to earn you any respect - it will devalue you in your and his eyes.

Does this sound like your reality?

If so, then the task becomes finding your plan to deal with it.

[blooming]

I don't think this is a constructive way to look at the situation. Would you be more at peace if he went back to "no contact" or you went to "no contact"?

No. You would be upset. Look at your old posts.

FACT: What you are upsetting you is not that he is talking with you, you are frustrated that he is not ready to move forward. It's important to see this difference.

You don't want to sabotage yourself in any way right now.

FACT: He is seeing other people. I don't know more that what you are telling us, but all the actions point to that. How often, how serious, how many, how long... .that is unclear.

Don't fool yourself. Have your eyes wide open. He is weighing his options and he is going to go with the option that makes him feel best. That might be you. That might be Randi. That might be working Tinder for a while. Right now, he feels he has options. You have confirmed that you are ready when he is. He doesn't want to limit his options right now and commit to you. He doesn't feel that need.

Accepting that this is the situation is the first step in deciding what is best for you and what actions you should take.

Hard, biting reality? Yes. This is a hard situation to be in.

Two things for sure.

1) Getting together and confronting that past and what he is doing since the breakup is not going to be attractive to him. It will be better to have fun and reconnect to the sides that both of you like.

2) Jumping at breadcrumbs, booty calls, and rededicating yourself to him, while he plays the field is not going to earn you any respect - it will devalue you in your and his eyes.

Does this sound like your reality?

If so, then the task becomes finding your plan to deal with it.

Yes, this sounds exactly like my reality.

Although I do think that having clarity would be better for me, so maybe no contact would really suck at first, but at least I would know where I was standing and would still have my dignity or something.

Well, I'm not entirely sure if he's seeing other people, because he has denied the accusations and has given alternatives to them and just kissing someone once while going out isn't exactly seeing someone. It's just that I'm not sure if he's speaking the truth or not. I wish with all my heart that I could just trust and believe him, it would make everything so much easier.

It just hurts that he's seeing me as an option, if he doesn't want to commit to be and doesn't feel the need to get back together, then how would it ever work? Because he will always think of all the other options and will probably leave whenever I do something wrong.

Do you have advice for making the plan to deal with my reality? What would you suggest?

1) Getting together and confronting that past and what he is doing since the breakup is not going to be attractive to him. It will be better to have fun and reconnect to the sides that both of you like.

2) Jumping at breadcrumbs, booty calls, and rededicating yourself to him, while he plays the field is not going to earn you any respect - it will devalue you in your and his eyes.

Those things are both very very true. But especially the second one I find hard. What should I do to keep me from devaluing myself?

[Skip]

Do you have advice for making the plan to deal with my reality? What would you suggest?

Acceptance the reality for what it is, not what you want it to be. Radical acceptance. You are not in relationship continuance mode - the old relationship died and its over. He is in dating mode.

This is not so bad. When you met him, you were both in dating mod. You did dating things, you connected, you started a relationship. Reconnecting is really going back through this process - but differently, smarter, better, etc.

That may work, it may not. Just like the first time.

What should I do to keep me from devaluing myself?

Spend time helping other members like yourself, here at bpdfamily.  You will learn form helping and eventually teaching. You will find yourself as you advise and share with others.

Connect with your values and clarify your romantic goals. And pursue them. One of those is to not invest your life and sit on the sideline for any man. You can pursue him. You can also pursue others and other things at the same time. 

This will help you connect with yourself and better understand the right relationship for you and how to attract it and be that partner.