He's contacted me. I'd like to try again. How do I do this? (Part 2)

[blooming]

Continuation of https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321221.0My uBPD ex and I broke up in the beginning of january. I'll give a brief summary here of what happened, but of course that isn't the whole story since if I'd write down every detail the post would just be too long.

We didn't have any contact for 5 weeks. Then, almost three weeks ago, he contacted me again. We talked for a bit on whatsapp, just updating eachother, then talking about how we both hated what had happened. He got frustrated and started blaming me, but he calmed down quickly and then suggested for me to come over to his place. I refused his offer.

A week later, on Valentine's day he contacted me again, because he said that he had heard that I was already seeing another. This is definitely not the case, which I told him. He then proceeded to talk about how I was still his only Valentine ever (for some reason he was always in-between girlfriends or in-between trying again with the same girlfriend during Valentine's day) and shouldn't we celebrate that? I agreed to meet up for drinks. We had a nice conversation, we talked a little about how we were both having a difficult time, but mostly just chatted. We hugged goodbye. He said that he wanted me to come over but he knew it wasn't good for me and I said indeed it wasn't and left for my own home. We then had a conversation on whatsapp in which he said that he had thought out about trying again multiple times during our conversation but that he thought it needed more time, because everything we'd try now just wouldn't work. He also said that he was jealous of me and of me doing new things in my life, that I could meet someone new any moment while his life was just boring and I needn't worry about him meeting someone because he didn't have the time or energy for that.

Then, in two days, I heard from two different friends of mine that they saw him with a girl (not the same girl). I asked him about this, since I thought it was the opposite of what he had told me on wednesday. He said that one of the girls was a girl he lived with in his student's house and that the other girl was just a one time thing, he had kissed her when he was drunk on a night out (they were seen on that night out, but my friend said it looked like they were there just the two of them and that they left together, so I don't know if I can trust him). He then pretty much begged me to come over on Saturday night, but I was celebrating my best friend's birthday and just didn't think it would be a good idea to do that, so I refused his offer again.

Then on sunday he asked if we could have dinner together. I agreed to this. We had a nice evening, made risotto and drank wine. First the conversation was light, then it got quite serious. First about how he was feeling (he really isn't doing well, he can't sleep, weeks feel like days for him, his head is very full) and he cried. I tried to comfort him the best I could. Then the conversation turned to our break up and why it didn't work out. He said that he just couldn't handle my problems on top of his own and thinks it wouldn't work now because I'm seeing a therapist and he doesn't want an overanalysed relationship. It turned into a discussion, and we both decided it didn't really go anywhere anymore so I left. Then he messaged me on whatsapp saying that he was sorry about the ending, that he would have liked to have seen it differently, but that nothing had changed. We talked a bit about how sad we felt about it all and I just felt so emotion and weak. He asked if he should come over but I went to him instead. We slept together (just hugging and kissing), and had breakfast together the next morning (wasn't awkward or anything) and I left.

Later that day he messaged me how my day was. We had some light conversation, but eventually I said that I didn't really understand the current situation but if he thought that nothing had changed then it would be best to stop contacting eachother, because it would make everything more difficult. He said he needed more time, because his head was just too full now, so he asked if we could talk again in a week. I agreed.

Then this Saturday it was his birthday, so of course I congratulated him. We had some light conversation, I ended the conversation at some point because I was going out for dinner with my family. Later in the evening he started the conversation again, asking how the dinner had been and if I was still up. I said I was already in bed and he said that was a pity, so I think he wanted to suggest that I could come over.

Then on Sunday he messaged me again with a funny picture. We talked a bit and then he asked me if I had any plans for the evening already. I said I already had plans, but that I was still free on wednesday or thursday. We agreed to meet up for dinner at a restaurant on thursday.

So, that was yesterday, but today he hasn't messaged me at all. During our relationship and at the beginning of our short recycles, when everything was still fine, we talked all day, so this is not normal behaviour. I just don't understand what he wants. One moment he seems so distant, the other moment he wants to meet up (it always comes from him, not me). And I don't know if I can trust him. Is he seeing other girls or not? He has a history of dating multiple women at once, he usually starts dating after a break up pretty much right away. So can I believe him if he says he isn't now, that he isn't interested in other women? It is very out of character. I just don't know what to do.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Speck]

Is he seeing other girls or not? He has a history of dating multiple women at once, he usually starts dating after a break up pretty much right away. So can I believe him if he says he isn't now, that he isn't interested in other women? It is very out of character. I just don't know what to do.

It must be very frustrating to not know the answer to this question. Are you really interested in this relationship working out? If so, the only thing that I know to satisfy the question is to just sit down with him and ask him directly. Finding out if he is dating other women or not may be tough because he may not be being forthright with you. And if he's not being honest with you, I'm sure that will lead to other questions.

I hope you find the answers you seek.


-Speck

[Skip]

If he is dating multiple women, how would this affect what you do?

[pearlsw]

Hi blooming,

He still seems interested in you from where I sit, but it seems a bit too difficult for him in certain respects... .Our partners carry such a heavy emotional load that it can be hard, if not impossible in some cases, to take on our emotions/needs/issues.

If you are not a couple, does it matter that he is or is not casually seeing other people? Maybe he is keeping it quiet because nothing is serious and he does not want to jeopardize things with you incase there is still a chance between you? Sorry it is hurting you though!

take care, pearl.

[blooming]

It must be very frustrating to not know the answer to this question. Are you really interested in this relationship working out? If so, the only thing that I know to satisfy the question is to just sit down with him and ask him directly. Finding out if he is dating other women or not may be tough because he may not be being forthright with you. And if he's not being honest with you, I'm sure that will lead to other questions.

I hope you find the answers you seek.


-Speck

Yes, it is very frustrating indeed. I am interested in giving this another shot, but in order to do that I need to able to trust him again and I'm not sure if I can. Not just about whether he's seeing others or not, but also about the fact that he won't change his mind again and leave. Yes, I want to ask him, but I don't reallly know how to do that? I'm scared to say it the wrong way and anger him. Do you have any advice on how to ask it? I hope he'll be honest if I ask him.

[blooming]

If he is dating multiple women, how would this affect what you do?

I think then my trust in him will be broken completely, since that means he didn't tell me the truth and then how will I ever know if he's lying or not or if he's faithful or not? So if that's the case, I think it's best we let eachother go.

[blooming]

Hi blooming,

He still seems interested in you from where I sit, but it seems a bit too difficult for him in certain respects... .Our partners carry such a heavy emotional load that it can be hard, if not impossible in some cases, to take on our emotions/needs/issues.

If you are not a couple, does it matter that he is or is not casually seeing other people? Maybe he is keeping it quiet because nothing is serious and he does not want to jeopardize things with you incase there is still a chance between you? Sorry it is hurting you though!

take care, pearl.

Yes, the part of his load being too heavy to carry mine as well is something I realize now. So if this works out and we get together again, I will try to keep that more to myself or talk about it with others instead of him, to not burden him any more.

Well, it matters because he has told me that he isn't doing that. He said I shouldn't worry about that and that his life is boring and he won't meet anyone and isn't interested in that. So if he is seeing someone, he would kind of be lying to me and that would be hard to accept.

[Speck]

blooming,

Hello.  Good to hear back from you.

Yes, it is very frustrating indeed. I am interested in giving this another shot, but in order to do that I need to able to trust him again and I'm not sure if I can.

That's completely understandable.

Not just about whether he's seeing others or not, but also about the fact that he won't change his mind again and leave.

I really hear you on this point. If you were to proceed in dating him, then he'd most likely have to be in some type of individual therapy in order to keep him grounded on that front. And further, he also, likewise, would need to be able to seriously reassure you that he's not headed for the door every time there's a dust-up. Your doubt surrounding this issue is fully warranted.

Yes, I want to ask him, but I don't really know how to do that? I'm scared to say it the wrong way and anger him.  I hope he'll be honest if I ask him.

Well, look at it this way: No matter how you ask him, you are sure to get your answer!

Do you have any advice on how to ask it?

The only thing that I can advise you on in this regard is to first ensure that he is also interested in romantically reconnecting with you. If not, then there's no reason to ask him if he's dating other women. If so, invite him for, say, coffee, or lunch in a quiet, but public place. Stay as neutral in verbal/nonverbal mannerisms as possible and then ask him if he's currently dating anyone.

Sometimes, when faced with difficult questions, there's no way to it but through it.

I hope some of this is helpful to you. Keep us posted on what decisions you come to.


-Speck

[pearlsw]

Yes, the part of his load being too heavy to carry mine as well is something I realize now. So if this works out and we get together again, I will try to keep that more to myself or talk about it with others instead of him, to not burden him any more.

Well, it matters because he has told me that he isn't doing that. He said I shouldn't worry about that and that his life is boring and he won't meet anyone and isn't interested in that. So if he is seeing someone, he would kind of be lying to me and that would be hard to accept.

So you would want him to tell him if he meets a person even once for coffee? Or to tell you if he is getting serious? Do you think he understands what you want in this regards?

I am just wondering because I was seeing someone once and not entirely sure we were exclusive, it was long distance, but I'd have had nothing against him perhaps talking to or casually going out during certain phases of us figuring our stuff out... .I don't know... .I can understand wanting to get the fine details worked out, but I am just wondering if there is any miscommunication going on? Does he absolutely understand/know what it is you want to know and what that exactly means for you? At that point it would be deceptive on his part... .

~pearl.

[Skip]

If he is dating multiple women, how would this affect what you do?

I think then my trust in him will be broken completely, since that means he didn't tell me the truth and then how will I ever know if he's lying or not or if he's faithful or not? So if that's the case, I think it's best we let each other go.

I think you already have this problem... .you have data to suggest that he has dated, you have history that he does this and lies about it, and you already asked and confronted him about it and got "I kissed her once" answers. And, you don't believe him.

I am interested in giving this another shot, but in order to do that I need to able to trust him again and I'm not sure if I can. Not just about whether he's seeing others or not, but also about the fact that he won't change his mind again and leave.

Are you expecting a long term commitment as a condition of "trying again"... .he answered this too - he expressed serious reservations (as have you), but a wiliness to try or to explore. Neither of you sound ready for a "commitment".

Yes, I want to ask him, but I don't really know how to do that? I'm scared to say it the wrong way and anger him. Do you have any advice on how to ask it? I hope he'll be honest if I ask him.

You do know how to ask it. Its not complicated. But you also know he is going to be angry about you doing so.

He seems to feel that you don't have a right to question what he has done when you were broken up - that it is his business. He has made that clear. When you did, it blew up the coffee date. There is a reason is hypersensitive about this.

Before you met the first time, it was suggested that if you dig into all of this, that it would set him back. It was also suggested that jumping into bed would be equally problematic for you and set you back.

That is what happened.

It seems like you both are inclined to play these two dynamics out again.

Why not just spend some time doing public things together... .go to a movie, have dinner, sleep in separate beds, until you both feel comfortable.

  

[isilme]

Hi Blooming.

Basically, Do you want him back?

If yes, then what conditions are needed for YOU to be secure and/or more happy with the r/s?

I agree you can only (partly) know by asking, but sadly, BPD can make someone exceptional at lying to us when telling us what we want to hear - partly because AT THAT TIME, they may actually believe it.  :)uring a sweet hear to heart in a familiar setting, like your or his apartments, he may be very sincere about wanting you, wishing things were better, never broken up, etc.  Because he is in the mode of PULL, and wants to enmesh into you, make you feel and share his feelings.  It's a bit like an empathy vampire.  And by the next day or week, they may not feel the same, so their truth changes.  So, no matter what he SAYS, you need to be prepared to keep an eye out for red flags he's NOT being honest or risk being surprised by being put in the recycle bin, again.  

If you want a monogamous, exclusive relationship, you need to say it bluntly.  "I want an exclusive relationship with you, now."  There is no room for error with that statement.  He cannot "misunderstand" it.

If he says, "yes, we will be exclusive," great!  Work your way through the tools on this site, set some ground rules/boundaries about causal coffee or other private interactions with other people if that is acceptable or not (is drunk kissing a deal breaker?), and focus on moving forward as a couple.  Personally, if he is prone to pretty much dating multiple people at once, I think NO coffee with other ladies (no dinners, no lunches, etc.) is the safest ground rule for you guys to have during this time if you BOTH really want to focus on each other.  Can't focus on the girl in front of you if you head is out a window, looking at another.  Once things are more stable, trust has been established, and he has proven he can BE trusted, you can relax this.  

If he says "yes" but you 1) don't believe it - there's a big red flag.  2) you find out he's not being exclusive a day, a week, a month later, what do you do?

If he flat out says "no, you can't control me."  What do you do?

I agree with pearls that he is interested, but how much is your main concern.  

This is a rough-no-coffee-yet analogy:  You are like a very comfortable pair of shoes - he knows how you will fit, in what ways you may give him blisters if worn wrong, and while he doesn't want to wear you to the club week to go dancing (he's got another pair in the closet ready and waiting for just that occasion) he also feels a very BPD pull to keep you in the closet, ready for when he wants to feel comfy.  Whether you like being put in the closet while the other shoes are worn for other events, gym shoes for running, dancing shoes for the club, he knows he can pull you out when his feet hurt, and get a certain amount of comfort from you, until his "meter" is full.

Ever play the video game Sims?  All the little computer Sim-people have meters - for food, for being clean, for social interaction, for sleep, etc.  As their meters get low, they can freak out, and even go crazy (never really realized how BPD-Sim-behaviour could be till now).  If you see your Sim has a low food-meter, you feed them, then they are done and want nothing to do with food until it's low again.  Same with social.  They need to fill their meters by talking, dancing, and even sleeping together, but once the meter is full, they ignore each other and move on to do other stuff until it's low again.  It's very push-pull.

Anyway - do you want to be one of many meter-fillers, or a girlfriend/significant other?  :)o you want to be called on for comfort and familiarity to take care of HIS needs, while you are told yours are too much trouble, he can't handle them?  :)o you want to feel a need to have people report on his whereabouts and who he contacts when you're away?

I really (and I am only able to see part of the situation and could be missing stuff) feel he likes you "just enough" to not paint you 100% black, and is very comfortable keeping you on hold, waiting in the wings.  You have shown that when he messages, you get ready to jump, asking "how high".  At the same time, he is able to satisfy other emotional needs being a flirt with others.  At this time, he is not respecting you as a person.  He sees you as a security blanket, ready to catch him when another person is unavailable, dumps him, sees him actin a very BPD way and runs off on him.  

I have a friend - she is nice, but can be domineering, and likes to monopolize what we do as a group of friends.  She is easily bored, and does not self-entertain well, and has a short attention span.  So, to satisfy her need to be entertained, she sends a separate text to ALL of us, her friends, asking "what are you doing?"  She casts a net to see who's free, who might be able to go do what she wants, and she takes the most interesting "bidder".  One friend was insulted to learn she texted all of us at the same time, seeing who had the most interesting day planned.  I kinda just don't respond unless I really want to be at her whims - I'm too old and tired for that nonsense.  

If this were any time period before the 1990s, you'd have a better gauge of his intentions, because he'd have to walk his butt over to you or try to catch you on a land-line phone.  Being free to message/text you on a whim takes VERY little effort, and you don't know how many other people he is texting at the same time.  If he had to come over to your apartment with flowers each time he tries to make up, at least that show he cared enough to exert a little more effort than twiddling his thumbs to pull on your heartstrings.  What if you insisted on not texting more than a time/place to meet, but that all REAL talk had to be done in person?  :)o you think you'd hear from him more?  Or feel a little more comfort that he made effort?  Actions speak louder - intermittent texting shows intermittent interest.  

So, be blunt, be aware, and just be honest with yourself - if you felt GOOD about these interactions if you felt he was showing honest interest and there was a good path to getting back together, you'd not be setting up 3 separate posts about it.  Your own intuition is telling you your answers.  That does not mean don't try, that it is impossible and that he is not maybe still very attached to you, but even if he is, you are still free to decide if this circus of flying monkeys is where you want to invest your heart - you are broken up.  He has said he regrets that but won't take it back.  But still expects you to give him attention and sympathy on-call.  This is not fair to you.  

Being in a BPD relationship requires US to be honest and have our eyes open about that choice.  This r/s is in a good place right now for you to detach if you feel he won't commit, won't be honest about committing, or he might just do this all over again in a period of month/years.  But you have to be willing to set up those boundaries to help you detach enough to look at this eyes-fully-open.

[Skip]

It seems there are three options people have discussed with you.

Walk away (your therapist) - walk away, its clear that he is in dating mode and not looking for a serious re-connection.

Confront (some members here) - confront him about what happened during the breakup and demand exclusivity and a precondition of going forward.

Start over, date (some members here) - change your approach to the relationship (don't do the same thing you did the first time that didn't work), take risk, move slow, try to rekindle a flame that will bring the two of you together.

I'd like to encourage the participants in these threads to contrast the likelihood of success of there various strategies in rebuilding your current situation in to a healthier relationship (not a repeat of the last relationship).

What has the best chance and the worst chance of getting you to your goal?

[once removed]

During our relationship and at the beginning of our short recycles, when everything was still fine, we talked all day, so this is not normal behaviour.

it is pretty normal behavior at this early stage of dating. what youre describing would be too much too soon, and a repeat of the past.

i get it. the last gal i saw did all of the contacting. when she didnt contact me i would over analyze, get anxious, and sit on hold waiting for her to do so. its no way to live. before this, you were living your best life, and it was working for you. it happened to be attractive to him. but when he showed up, you stopped living your best life and went all in.

he said lets talk in a week. you gave him some space. you engaged with a very light, obligatory birthday wish, then gave him more space. what happened? he proceeded to contact you multiple times. you kept cool and you werent distant, but you werent overly available. so he pushed to make plans. progress. the natural flow of things.

thats more than enough to suggest to me that what is important is to get a good read on this situation, see it for what it is, and what it isnt. it suggests to me that a too much too soon approach strangles the connection, pushes him away. it suggests to me that a light touch, keeping cool, living your life, allows a lot of room for the two of you to connect, and that when you keep cool, dont put your life on hold, he pursues.

you can confront him and push for exclusivity. ive done it, in too early stages, out of my own anxiety. its blown it up every time. a few of those times, i pulled back, got myself together, and then things proceeded. hes made it pretty clear that if you do this, at the very least, he will pull away (his head will get too full again). at best, you will feel like youve gotten something off your chest, but youre not likely to be happy with the outcome.

[blooming]

I really hear you on this point. If you were to proceed in dating him, then he'd most likely have to be in some type of individual therapy in order to keep him grounded on that front. And further, he also, likewise, would need to be able to seriously reassure you that he's not headed for the door every time there's a dust-up. Your doubt surrounding this issue is fully warranted.

Very true, but I just don't think he is open to that. He has a very negative opinion about therapy.

The only thing that I can advise you on in this regard is to first ensure that he is also interested in romantically reconnecting with you. If not, then there's no reason to ask him if he's dating other women. If so, invite him for, say, coffee, or lunch in a quiet, but public place. Stay as neutral in verbal/nonverbal mannerisms as possible and then ask him if he's currently dating anyone.

We're going out for dinner tonight, so I could ask him then. The problem is I have asked him before and he said that he isn't dating anyone, but I'm just not sure if I can believe him. He has also said that if we would try again that it would of course be exclusive (so no dating others), but I know that he has lied about this in the past to his other girlfriends (not in our relationship luckily), so I just never know if he speaks the truth. I guess I'll just have to trust my guts tonight when I bring it up.

I'll keep you posted!

[blooming]

So you would want him to tell him if he meets a person even once for coffee? Or to tell you if he is getting serious? Do you think he understands what you want in this regards?

I am just wondering because I was seeing someone once and not entirely sure we were exclusive, it was long distance, but I'd have had nothing against him perhaps talking to or casually going out during certain phases of us figuring our stuff out... .I don't know... .I can understand wanting to get the fine details worked out, but I am just wondering if there is any miscommunication going on? Does he absolutely understand/know what it is you want to know and what that exactly means for you? At that point it would be deceptive on his part... .

~pearl.

I want it to just be us when we start dating again. I have told him that (that if we try again I need to be sure that it's just us) and he said that wasn't a problem at all. So I hope he understands that it means not dating other women in any way or form, but of course he can drink coffee with someone if it's just a friend!

[blooming]

I think you already have this problem... .you have data to suggest that he has dated, you have history that he does this and lies about it, and you already asked and confronted him about it and got "I kissed her once" answers. And, you don't believe him.

So yeah the only data I have for this is that he was seen alone with another girl in a night club by a friend of mine who also saw them leaving the dance floor together, but he says he only kissed that girl. He could still speak the truth, I don't have any evidence that he actually dated her or is still dating her. But you're right, I already have this problem. Do you have any idea how to solve it?

He seems to feel that you don't have a right to question what he has done when you were broken up - that it is his business. He has made that clear. When you did, it blew up the coffee date. There is a reason is hypersensitive about this.

Hmm no that's not true actually. I only asked him about it on whatsapp and he reacted quite relaxed, saying that he understood that I didn't understand the stories I had heard and that I couldn't link it to him telling me he hadn't met anyone and didn't have the energy/time for that. So he actually didn't react very hypersensitive. He said that one of the girls he was seen it was his housemate and that the other girl he only kissed when he was drunk and that nothing else happened and he hasn't spoken to her since.

Why not just spend some time doing public things together... .go to a movie, have dinner, sleep in separate beds, until you both feel comfortable.

Yes I suggested dinner for tonight! Now I only have to be strong enough to decline his offer when he asks if I sleep at his place.

[blooming]

Basically, Do you want him back?

I do.

If yes, then what conditions are needed for YOU to be secure and/or more happy with the r/s?

I need to feel like he actually wants to be with me, and only me, and that I'm not just a solution for the fact that he doesn't have the energy to find anyone else.

If you want a monogamous, exclusive relationship, you need to say it bluntly.  "I want an exclusive relationship with you, now."  There is no room for error with that statement.  He cannot "misunderstand" it.

I have said this. I said that if we want to try again I want it to just be us and no dating others. He agreed to that statement.

If he says, "yes, we will be exclusive," great!  Work your way through the tools on this site, set some ground rules/boundaries about causal coffee or other private interactions with other people if that is acceptable or not (is drunk kissing a deal breaker?), and focus on moving forward as a couple.  Personally, if he is prone to pretty much dating multiple people at once, I think NO coffee with other ladies (no dinners, no lunches, etc.) is the safest ground rule for you guys to have during this time if you BOTH really want to focus on each other.  Can't focus on the girl in front of you if you head is out a window, looking at another.  Once things are more stable, trust has been established, and he has proven he can BE trusted, you can relax this.

Which tools should I work through first? I have read some things on JADE-ing and validating, but not a lot. I think I could learn a lot more.

If he says "yes" but you 1) don't believe it - there's a big red flag.  2) you find out he's not being exclusive a day, a week, a month later, what do you do?

Yes, that's a very good question. Of course, if I would find that it out it would be over between us. But I'm just scared for how much that would hurt me. But I just don't know how to be sure that he's speaking the truth, how to convince myself that he's true to me and only me. I know more about his dating past than I should know because I know friends of his exes, I know more than he thinks I know. And this knowledge about his past has altered my opinion of him. Maybe that's very unfair? We can't keep blaming people for their past and stupid decisions they made a few years ago right?

This is a rough-no-coffee-yet analogy:  You are like a very comfortable pair of shoes - he knows how you will fit, in what ways you may give him blisters if worn wrong, and while he doesn't want to wear you to the club week to go dancing (he's got another pair in the closet ready and waiting for just that occasion) he also feels a very BPD pull to keep you in the closet, ready for when he wants to feel comfy.  Whether you like being put in the closet while the other shoes are worn for other events, gym shoes for running, dancing shoes for the club, he knows he can pull you out when his feet hurt, and get a certain amount of comfort from you, until his "meter" is full.

Pfff yeah that's a harsh one, but it kind of sounds like his behaviour. So how do I get him out of that behaviour or how do I found out if he's sincere or not or that I'm just there to make him feel comfortable?

Anyway - do you want to be one of many meter-fillers, or a girlfriend/significant other?  :)o you want to be called on for comfort and familiarity to take care of HIS needs, while you are told yours are too much trouble, he can't handle them?  :)o you want to feel a need to have people report on his whereabouts and who he contacts when you're away?

I really (and I am only able to see part of the situation and could be missing stuff) feel he likes you "just enough" to not paint you 100% black, and is very comfortable keeping you on hold, waiting in the wings.  You have shown that when he messages, you get ready to jump, asking "how high".  At the same time, he is able to satisfy other emotional needs being a flirt with others.  At this time, he is not respecting you as a person.  He sees you as a security blanket, ready to catch him when another person is unavailable, dumps him, sees him actin a very BPD way and runs off on him.  

I have a friend - she is nice, but can be domineering, and likes to monopolize what we do as a group of friends.  She is easily bored, and does not self-entertain well, and has a short attention span.  So, to satisfy her need to be entertained, she sends a separate text to ALL of us, her friends, asking "what are you doing?"  She casts a net to see who's free, who might be able to go do what she wants, and she takes the most interesting "bidder".  One friend was insulted to learn she texted all of us at the same time, seeing who had the most interesting day planned.  I kinda just don't respond unless I really want to be at her whims - I'm too old and tired for that nonsense.  

If this were any time period before the 1990s, you'd have a better gauge of his intentions, because he'd have to walk his butt over to you or try to catch you on a land-line phone.  Being free to message/text you on a whim takes VERY little effort, and you don't know how many other people he is texting at the same time.  If he had to come over to your apartment with flowers each time he tries to make up, at least that show he cared enough to exert a little more effort than twiddling his thumbs to pull on your heartstrings.  What if you insisted on not texting more than a time/place to meet, but that all REAL talk had to be done in person?  :)o you think you'd hear from him more?  Or feel a little more comfort that he made effort?  Actions speak louder - intermittent texting shows intermittent interest.  

So, be blunt, be aware, and just be honest with yourself - if you felt GOOD about these interactions if you felt he was showing honest interest and there was a good path to getting back together, you'd not be setting up 3 separate posts about it.  Your own intuition is telling you your answers.  That does not mean don't try, that it is impossible and that he is not maybe still very attached to you, but even if he is, you are still free to decide if this circus of flying monkeys is where you want to invest your heart - you are broken up.  He has said he regrets that but won't take it back.  But still expects you to give him attention and sympathy on-call.  This is not fair to you.  

Being in a BPD relationship requires US to be honest and have our eyes open about that choice.  This r/s is in a good place right now for you to detach if you feel he won't commit, won't be honest about committing, or he might just do this all over again in a period of month/years.  But you have to be willing to set up those boundaries to help you detach enough to look at this eyes-fully-open.

Wow, thank you for all this. It really made me think and I've read it multiple times. I think I'll copy some of it to use when I see him tonight. I'm sorry I don't really know how to respond to it because it's just so much information, but thank you. Any idea on how to ask him if he wants to commit or not?

[blooming]

it is pretty normal behavior at this early stage of dating. what youre describing would be too much too soon, and a repeat of the past.

i get it. the last gal i saw did all of the contacting. when she didnt contact me i would over analyze, get anxious, and sit on hold waiting for her to do so. its no way to live. before this, you were living your best life, and it was working for you. it happened to be attractive to him. but when he showed up, you stopped living your best life and went all in.

I try to live my best life still, do all the things I did when he hadn't contacted me yet and not let his opinion about the things I do ruin my enjoyment of them. I try to keep my distance, rejecting his invitation to spend the night and things like that. I am really trying to keep my cool, it's just hard.

he said lets talk in a week. you gave him some space. you engaged with a very light, obligatory birthday wish, then gave him more space. what happened? he proceeded to contact you multiple times. you kept cool and you werent distant, but you werent overly available. so he pushed to make plans. progress. the natural flow of things.

thats more than enough to suggest to me that what is important is to get a good read on this situation, see it for what it is, and what it isnt. it suggests to me that a too much too soon approach strangles the connection, pushes him away. it suggests to me that a light touch, keeping cool, living your life, allows a lot of room for the two of you to connect, and that when you keep cool, dont put your life on hold, he pursues.

Yes, that's a very good analysis, it's exactly what happened, I realise that only now.

you can confront him and push for exclusivity. ive done it, in too early stages, out of my own anxiety. its blown it up every time. a few of those times, i pulled back, got myself together, and then things proceeded. hes made it pretty clear that if you do this, at the very least, he will pull away (his head will get too full again). at best, you will feel like youve gotten something off your chest, but youre not likely to be happy with the outcome.

I have told him that if we actually want to try again that I need exclusivity and he's agreed to that, but you're right, he's not ready for actually trying again yet. But I just don't think I can handle the idea of him dating others as well as me, since we've shared a whole relationship together already and it just feels like such a step back. I'll try to talk about it with him when I see him tonight.

[gotbushels]

Hi blooming  

Which tools should I work through first? I have read some things on JADE-ing and validating, but not a lot. I think I could learn a lot more.

I'd like to provide a supporting response to this^.  

I do think not-JADEing and learning how to validate are very big deals. Good job to yourself on looking into those. I think if you know how to simply validate well, it will pay off heaps for everything else you do.

There are heaps of helpful lessons on bettering the relationship here. The kind staff here have also already indexed them for you pick in a suggested order.

To offer some suggestions in the context of continuing a relationship (mine was short-term, I'd like to also see some suggestions for those married couples too    , I would probably figure out:

• Recognition tool... .what am I dealing with? Basically, what distinguishes a pwBPD from a not-pwBPD; see WHEN you'll need to bring your skills into focus (hint: dys... .).
• Caretaker tools... .how do I be the caretaker? Basically, how do I know and maintain my own storehouse inventory of mental health, with the additional responsibility of being able to look after someone else's.
• Personal tool... .how do I "do" mindfulness? Basically, how do I get into this state--and what does it look like to be out of the state.

I think those are basic of the basic around the time after you pick up validation and not-JADE. I strongly encourage you to use the site's lesson list to choose your own, because all of us know our own relationships best here (aside from adjunct Ts and Ps).

[isilme]

bushels is right - only you can look through the tools list and lessons and see what may apply best to your situation AND work the best for your personality to employ.

Some people on here are VERY good at being able to state things bluntly, like "you are violating a boundary, I will not engage with you until you respect it" and making it stick.  I am a much more passive person overall - stating things succinctly and directly is something I have been working on for years both in my personal and professional life.

Personally, I work on validating the valid things I can - I do not validate the invalid, like blaming me for his feelings.  This can get tricky if I have actually done something wrong, but his feelings are out of proportion to the offense because he chooses to dredge up old hurts.  Sometimes, simply being a good active listener does the trick, and lets him know he is being heard.  I may not agree, but he has been heard. 

I am working on not JADE-ing, and I think I have gotten better at recognizing when I start to do it and stopping - will never be perfect, but my goal is to diminish drama and get past the initial stages of high emotion to be able to actually work on the problem. 

I have my best try at a boundary about not being yelled at - I do not state my boundary other than to ask "stop yelling at me."  and then I try to leave the room or house if it continues or gets worse. 

It's all a matter of nuance, like, just ebcause he raised his voice doesn't mean I grab my keys and go - there is a point I sense that means it's not going to die down, and THEN it's time to disengage.

I know my shoe analogy is rough, (told you, had not had coffee  but it also applies a little to you.  He's like a pair of heels you saved up to buy, that look great and can feel pretty good at first, partly because they make you feel so pretty to wear them.  But then, they hurt your feet in varying degrees, depending on how long you keep trying to wear them.  And so after a while, you take them off, but keep them nearby.  You invested so much on them it feels like a shame to give them away to someone else, and you try to not remember how much they hurt, pinch your toes, cut into your ankles, blisters, and can even make your feet go numb for a while even after you've taken them off - instead you try to remember how good you feel when you first put them on.  So instead of looking to see is another pair of shoes makes you feel just as pretty but is kinder to your feet, you seem to believe this may be the only pair of shoes for you.  You put them in the closet, and pull them out time to time, and cut up your ankles all over again, only to repeat the process.

How to ask him?  You say you've stated things to him already - you want to be BF/GF, no side chicks, no side guys.  He claims to want the same, but you are fearful - sadly, the only way to learn is a person is trustworthy is to trust them. 

If you want to really dive into the pond again, just do it this time with your eyes open.  Hear more than what you want to hear, try to see him for him - try to see how he sees himself, and though this can often hurt when BPD is involved, try to see how he sees you.  This can shift like the wind as you are painted black then white and back again. 

A relationship is a process for its whole duration.  I know we speak of happily ever after, but that's not real.  Day to day, you have to be able to work through things, deal with minor annoyances and major issues.  You change as this goes on, he (or whomever you are with) changes as it goes on.  BPD does not like to change, rebels against change, because change might mean abandonment.  Might mean blame, or new responsibility.  If you are going to give this a go - I suggest you write yourself a private, clear list of what you will accept and won't, and refer to it once a month or so, to make sure you're not allowing yourself to slide away from respecting yourself.  He doesn't need to see this - it's for you.  All of this is pretty much for YOU.  Boundaries protect you, they dont' change him.  Validation, stopping JADE, all of these minimize drama for YOU, to help make YOUR life less painful, more stable, and help you become a stonger person overall.

[blooming]

Hi everyone!

I'll respond to all your comments (thank you for being so responsive and helping me so much!) later, but first I'll update you.

Yesterday evening I went out for dinner with my ex. We had a really nice time actually, talking for almost 4 hours straight. Of coure, because it was in a restaurant, we couldn't really have any serious conversation about us or something, but still there was enough to talk about.

After we paid I got quite nervous, because I had no idea if he wanted me to come over and I knew that if he did I had to reject his offer, based on all your advice. We got our bikes and cycled to the point where we would need to part ways. He said he had a very nice time and I said I had too and he wished me good night and then kissed me. I pulled away quite quickly (I don't really know why, maybe it startled me), wished him goodnight as well and good luck with getting up early and cycled away.

When I got home he had messaged me something like "Well, that was a very abrupt goodbye" and I said I agreed, because it was, it was kind of awkward actually haha. He then proceeded tot alk about how he was going to get into his cold bed and that if I wanted I could get my stuff and come over to him. I said that I thought that wasn't a good idea as long as stuff are so unclear between us and repeated how much I had enjoyed the evening. He got quite frustrated, saying that I was always so crazily correct and stiff and difficult and "didn't I have any needs needing to be fulfilled?". I didn't cave though and wished him a good night again.

I hope I did the right thing. It's not nice hearing those kind of stuff from someone you care about and knowing that you disappointed him. I hope it doesn't end here, but if it does, then at least it's clear what his intentions were. At least he knows now that I'm not his dog in leash, always available whenever he pleases, I guess?

[CryWolf]

Hi everyone!

I'll respond to all your comments (thank you for being so responsive and helping me so much!) later, but first I'll update you.

Yesterday evening I went out for dinner with my ex. We had a really nice time actually, talking for almost 4 hours straight. Of coure, because it was in a restaurant, we couldn't really have any serious conversation about us or something, but still there was enough to talk about.

After we paid I got quite nervous, because I had no idea if he wanted me to come over and I knew that if he did I had to reject his offer, based on all your advice. We got our bikes and cycled to the point where we would need to part ways. He said he had a very nice time and I said I had too and he wished me good night and then kissed me. I pulled away quite quickly (I don't really know why, maybe it startled me), wished him goodnight as well and good luck with getting up early and cycled away.

When I got home he had messaged me something like "Well, that was a very abrupt goodbye" and I said I agreed, because it was, it was kind of awkward actually haha. He then proceeded tot alk about how he was going to get into his cold bed and that if I wanted I could get my stuff and come over to him. I said that I thought that wasn't a good idea as long as stuff are so unclear between us and repeated how much I had enjoyed the evening. He got quite frustrated, saying that I was always so crazily correct and stiff and difficult and "didn't I have any needs needing to be fulfilled?". I didn't cave though and wished him a good night again.

I hope I did the right thing. It's not nice hearing those kind of stuff from someone you care about and knowing that you disappointed him. I hope it doesn't end here, but if it does, then at least it's clear what his intentions were. At least he knows now that I'm not his dog in leash, always available whenever he pleases, I guess?

Hey Blooming!,

Im glad you had such a good time with your ex at dinner. You did great by not bringing up anything serious and kept things light and cheerful.

Don't beat yourself up about pulling back. You were true to your emotions, and perhaps it was a sign to not rush back into things. As for the texts from him, I believe he is frustrated that you perhaps aren't being so easy this time around. Good for you. You are the catch, don't forget that.

[blooming]

Hi blooming  
I'd like to provide a supporting response to this^.  

I do think not-JADEing and learning how to validate are very big deals. Good job to yourself on looking into those. I think if you know how to simply validate well, it will pay off heaps for everything else you do.

There are heaps of helpful lessons on bettering the relationship here. The kind staff here have also already indexed them for you pick in a suggested order.

To offer some suggestions in the context of continuing a relationship (mine was short-term, I'd like to also see some suggestions for those married couples too    , I would probably figure out:

• Recognition tool... .what am I dealing with? Basically, what distinguishes a pwBPD from a not-pwBPD; see WHEN you'll need to bring your skills into focus (hint: dys... .).
• Caretaker tools... .how do I be the caretaker? Basically, how do I know and maintain my own storehouse inventory of mental health, with the additional responsibility of being able to look after someone else's.
• Personal tool... .how do I "do" mindfulness? Basically, how do I get into this state--and what does it look like to be out of the state.

I think those are basic of the basic around the time after you pick up validation and not-JADE. I strongly encourage you to use the site's lesson list to choose your own, because all of us know our own relationships best here (aside from adjunct Ts and Ps).

Thank you so much gotbushels! I will look into all the things you recommended and also look at the lesson list myself to see what applies to me.

[gotbushels]

Some people on here are VERY good at being able to state things bluntly... .I am a much more passive person overall - stating things succinctly and directly is something I have been working on for years both in my personal and professional life.

isilme, I'd like to share something that I think will support what you've said here. Something that was more blessed into my life rather than learned--I saw and experienced people that struggle with this issue here, in life. It seems to be quite a recurring issue with a lot of people. I wanted to share that because I felt comfort whenever I saw things I recognised from this community, but outside of this community.  

Moreover--on skills and things here--I admired the senior members here like Waverider and Greykitty because they seemed to be very adept at these difficult things. Sometimes I thought, "Wow, I can't do that boundary--how can you just walk out--what happens when they explode?" Looking back on it, I still feel quite awestruck. S'more comfort here is knowing that these members have been living with these hard situations for many more years than I have. That helped me to access some self-compassion whenever a nut wouldn't crack.  

Sometimes, simply being a good active listener does the trick, and lets him know he is being heard.  I may not agree, but he has been heard.  

Yes. Building on what you said, I also want to highlight that listening attentively is a form of validation. It's a great example because it communicates understanding without agreement. That's hard! I think sometimes that's really hard. Good example is also further to the other thing you said:

I am working on not JADE-ing, and I think I have gotten better at recognizing when I start to do it ... .

After I learned the not JADE-ing bit, I found myself thinking, "Umm well that's everything I have to say, so if I don't JADE, I just stand there?" And I do remember standing there. It was so weird. The air was so clear even though I was a bit lost as to where the conversation was going.    Attentive listening helped there because searching for understanding of where the pwBPD is at, at the given time, that's a validation item that you can do when you're stuck without anything to say.

I will look into all the things you recommended and also look at the lesson list myself to see what applies to me.

You're most welcome blooming. One tiny piece at a time--each piece is progress. The recognition is often the hard step--and you've already done a lot of that. 

[isilme]

I didn't cave though and wished him a good night again.

Good boundary enforcement.     That was very hard to do I am sure, but the next time you find yourself facing enforcing a boundary with anyone, not just him, you will know you can do it.

It sounds like you managed to spend time in a good, safe environment that allowed you to still be able to choose when you needed to separate, and you were also very good at letting him know that the uncertainty of where you both stand with each other outweighs any "needs to be fulfilled".   

[blooming]

Good boundary enforcement.     That was very hard to do I am sure, but the next time you find yourself facing enforcing a boundary with anyone, not just him, you will know you can do it.

It sounds like you managed to spend time in a good, safe environment that allowed you to still be able to choose when you needed to separate, and you were also very good at letting him know that the uncertainty of where you both stand with each other outweighs any "needs to be fulfilled".  

Yes, I'm really happy with how things went yesterday! And this morning he messaged me saying he was sorry for his behaviour and that he shouldn't have projected his frustations onto me. I'm glad he sad that. And it means that he's still interested even though I rejected his offers last night, because he is still messaging me the whole day. So I'm really glad I enforced that boundary.

Curious to see how things will go on from here.

[CryWolf]

Hey Blooming,
how is your situation going?

[blooming]

Thank you for asking CryWolf! The situation is still quite vague, I'll try to summarize what happened since the wednesday we had dinner together.

Since that time I saw him two more times and I'll see him again tomorrow. On the sunday of that same week we had dinner together and went out for an evening stroll and some ice cream. We talked a lot and had some beers and just a really good time. I didn't plan on doing it, but when he kissed me things just escalated and I ended up staying the night. But I guess things like that happen when you're dating, so maybe I shouldn't fuss about it too much. The day after that he had to leave early but I stayed in his bed. So I guess it's a good sign that he's trusting me to be alone in his room already.

That sunday night we talked about a concert we both wanted to go to, which was that coming friday, so we decided to go together. In the days between sunday and friday we messaged eachother every day, sometimes more, sometimes less. Friday we first had dinner together and then went to the concert. During the dinner I tried to talk a bit about the situation, but it seemed like he wasn't really up to it. He said that he was having a really good time now, but that he couldn't give me any answers. I said that I found it hard that I didn't really feel like he really liked me or really wanted to spend time with me, but he didn't really reply to that. So it's all still very vague. He did say again that I really shouldn't worry about him being with anyone else, because he isn't. So I really need to try to trust him on that. I did see two dirty teacups with only one teabag on his table, so things like that make me think immediately that he had company. I hate myself for finding it so hard to trust him, because it's pretty much all based on things he's done in the past, but he has never done anything like that during our relationship.

Since friday we again talked every day, sometimes more/sometimes less, and yesterday (sunday evening) he kind of insinuated that we should meet up again, but he kept it quite vague. I decided to leave it with him, but he didn't really ask when I was available, so I found that quite difficult. I feel like it's mostly me asking to meet up. (The dinner on wednesday was because he asked to have dinner on the sunday before that but I couldn't so I proposed wednesday, meeting up on sunday was because I proposed it and the concert on friday was pretty much my proposal too I think). So out of insecurity I messaged him something today like "I'm not sure if it was on purpose that you didn't want to settle on a day to meet up again yesterday, so I feel a bit awkward asking this but... .Do you want to meet up sometime this week?" He didn't react well to that. Said I was making problems that weren't there. But we did agree on meeting up tomorrow. I regret sending that message to him. It was out of insecurity, but I know that he has told me on multiple occasions that I make problems that aren't there so that's why he's really annoyed by this I think. I'm scared I ruined something.

But, the problem is, I really don't know what he wants. Does he want this to become a relationship again, does he like me in that way, or does he just want the company and the intimacy without any of the troubles of a relationship? I really want to know this, but don't know how. Because I don't want to pressure him and I think that if I talk about these stuff too much I will surely push him away.

So, how to proceed? Any advice, any insights on the situation?

[Speck]

Hello again, Blooming.

It's great to get an update from you.

But, the problem is, I really don't know what he wants. Does he want this to become a relationship again, does he like me in that way, or does he just want the company and the intimacy without any of the troubles of a relationship? I really want to know this, but don't know how. Because I don't want to pressure him and I think that if I talk about this stuff too much I will surely push him away. So, how to proceed? Any advice, any insights on the situation?

I know that you seriously and ardently want to know what his intentions are with you, and this is perfectly understandable. I know you don't want to get hurt again. However, do you think you are able to settle down a bit and let Father Time shake out your questions regarding his intent?

I know that he has told me on multiple occasions that I make problems that aren't there.

As hard as it is to hear, he is giving you feedback here. Whether you actually are or not, is not the point. He thinks that you are. This may be a for him. So... .relaxing a bit in this regard may help, although I know it's not fun to not know where you stand with someone.

I hope this is helpful to you. Keep writing, keep processing!


-Speck

[blooming]

Hello again, Blooming.

It's great to get an update from you.

Aw thank you! So nice of you to say that.

I know that you seriously and ardently want to know what his intentions are with you, and this is perfectly understandable. I know you don't want to get hurt again. However, do you think you are able to settle down a bit and let Father Time shake out your questions regarding his intent?

I hope so, it's what I'm trying to do. Yesterday we met up again and we had a really nice time (in my opinion, of course I don't know exactly what he thought of it and I think it's weird to keep saying after every time we meet up "I had a really nice time yesterday", don't you think?). I didn't bring up anything about what our current situation is but we just had a nice evening and he acted quite affectionate, which was nice. He also was really open with his phone around me and I didn't see any messages by other girls, so that helps with me trusting him more. I hope I can keep up this settling down. It's hard though. But I don't want to ruin the way things are going now, so that helps as motivation.

As hard as it is to hear, he is giving you feedback here. Whether you actually are or not, is not the point. He thinks that you are. This may be a for him. So... .relaxing a bit in this regard may help, although I know it's not fun to not know where you stand with someone.

I hope this is helpful to you. Keep writing, keep processing!

You are totally right. I think he is right, at least to some extent. I overanalyse everything way too much and see problems where there are none. It is definitely a red flag for him, so I will try to let it go a little. I'm just so scared he will decide that he doesn't like me enough anyway and let me go again.