Mindfulness - possible traps

[maria1]

www.mindfulconstruct.com/2011/02/04/17-ways-mindfulness-meditation-can-cause-you-emotional-harm/

Please dont anybody take this as a criticism of mindfulness per se; it isn't. Its sbout how it can cause us harm if we use it a certain way. I post it because I believe 'mindfulness' can have a damaging effect and can stop us from connecting with our true emotions. It's a fine balance between managing our emotions, observing them and feeling them and working through the deeply entrenched beliefs that may lie behind them. I don't profess to having it right.

[livednlearned]

www.mindfulconstruct.com/2011/02/04/17-ways-mindfulness-meditation-can-cause-you-emotional-harm/

Please dont anybody take this as a criticism of mindfulness per se; it isn't. Its sbout how it can cause us harm if we use it a certain way. I post it because I believe 'mindfulness' can have a damaging effect and can stop us from connecting with our true emotions. It's a fine balance between managing our emotions, observing them and feeling them and working through the deeply entrenched beliefs that may lie behind them. I don't profess to having it right.

thanks maria1 -- you are the first person to say this here (to my knowledge).

My N/BPDx meditated for over 30 years and was a dedicated Zen buddhist.

He used to tell me he practiced zazen and then proceeded to say awful things about what a crappy little person I was.



I feel validated by your post 

[charred]

My exBPDgf stressed me out so much I was getting welts. She would antagonize me constantly, nagging for me to quit having anything to do with my exwife and to treat my daughter the way she thought I should, not the way I thought I should. I was torn between moving to be with my pwBPD... and giving her up and the stress was extreme.

Went to a T, who suggested mindfulness (Eckart Tolle's "A new Earth" to be exact... and I went to a bookstore and nearly didn't buy it as it was in the "New Age" section and I always viewed that as BS. Anyway a week after reading/doing mindfulness exercises... .  and I was least stressed I had been in years. I think it was the nature of the stress being that egoic weird... what should I do, what might happen, what could go wrong,... .  and my mind would race from catastrophe to bad thing, prodded by my pwBPD. Once the dust settled a bit, I realized that everything about the pwBPD... was that egoic type of stuff, there was little that seemed genuine, rational, necessary or good. I had felt off balanced somehow by my pwBPD and when I had my balance back... I no longer was very susceptible to her mind games, and after a few weeks, decided i was going to be the one to end the r/s, and I did, and it was the right decision.

As to dangers of mindfulness... well, living in the now... .  isn't going to keep you wrapped up in your issues, and for examining your issues, that is probably not the time to be mindful. I kept seeing a T, and though my original issue was at bay (stressing out)... had plenty more to work on... I was approaching 50 and holidays so I kept seeing him. Seemed for a while like a total waste... like there was little to fix... then some things came up that got me talking about my dad and it became clear that he was a raging NPD person, and that explained a lot (been estranged from him for over a decade... right choice.) Also some other issues made it clear that I had some kind of trauma issues and they may well be attachment ones... .  moved a lot of times, had a NPD father, a passive-aggressive mother (whose own mother died when she was 5 ... she is not a warm cuddly person) and then have had this horrible r/s with a pwBPD... .  so it looks like I have my own issues, and am finally getting to dealing with them. BPD is not something that is easy/likely to get fixed in another person... I would like my exBPDgf fixed so we could be together and it be nice... .  not happening, my dad... same story,. but I am with me till the end, so that is worth addressing, and T's can do pretty good work with PTSD type stuff, so it is promising.

As to mindfulness, I find I can compare the feeling of something in the moment with egoic stuff, and tell a big difference... the now, in the moment, is genuine, authentic and stress relieving. My exwife and I had a genuine though a bit boring r/s, and we still care about each other and have forgiven each other. My exBPDgf is a ball of egoic bad karma and the whole mindfulness exercises helped me to see it, to be stronger in resisting her charms (all I do is require her to be genuine and she bolts) and has taken me from stressed to relaxed. I don't think it is all that deep, rather common sense we forget; worrying doesn't solve anything ... .  pay attention to the people you are with and be present, forgive yourself for your yesterdays... nothing you can do to change them.

I would love to find some other truly useful techniques, information. So far mindfulness and these boards, and my T have made quite a difference... .  still have a ways to go.

[seeking balance]

I read this article and found it interesting... .  basically the first big thing to realize is meditation is not necesarily mindfulness.  I think folks think because they meditate they are mindful.

Overall, ANYTHING used to not deal with emotions is not going to help one become truly mindful.  Emotions (difficult ones) are... .  well... .  difficult. 

If you take a deep look into Linehan and DBT -  what you realize is mindfulness strategies are NOT about avoiding emotions, it is about controlling the maladaptive coping mechanisms the emotions caused.

People tolerate painful emotions in different ways - some use drugs or alcohol - others go from relationship to relationship - and stll others may do yoga or meditate... .  judging which one works best for you or me is really personal preference I suppose. 

[charred]

seeking balance-

Agree completely, saw the mindfulness as a way to lose the stress, but not blank out emotion. The idea of egoic vs genuine/authentic... seems to fit as well, and in my case anyway, just about everything from my pwBPD was of an egoic nature. It always seemed just a little off somehow, but I didn't know how to explain what was off... .  now looking at it, its obvious, the honeymoon/idealization phase was stroking my ego... the jabs later and the clinging, ego, the hater phase, mostly attacks on the ego.

[Suzn]

Mindfulness, to me, is a state of being completely present. Taking note of your surroundings, how they "are" and how you "are" in them. I think it's separate from the emotions one has, though it goes hand in hand. It's more the notice of emotions, being able to identify them and how they affect you. For instance, being mindful of when you are becoming angry, the physical effects, your breathing changes, your muscles tense, your palms may clinch and/or you can't think straight... etc.

Imho mindfulness meditation is likely more about calming the harmful physical effects to the body in this case, not trying to escape from the emotion. Furthermore, it can help one focus, to enter your Wise Mind, so that you can identify an emotion and track it to it's truer identity. For instance, anger=hurt. The sooner you can identify a core emotion, the sooner you will experience it and move through it.

Just my two cents. 

[laelle]

For me, mindfulness is just a xanax I dont have to take.  Its not about avoiding problems for me, it staves off panic attacks and helps me deal with myself better.

My problems are still problems, but the perspective changes.   They are problems I can accept and deal with VS problems that I am going to have a panic attack about and go off the deep end. It helps me to deal with my problems in a healthy way.

[myself]

I think just like anything it could be used in other ways than positive. Most times, hopefully not. If you're doing it right, that wouldn't happen. It's all about the focus. You don't always like what you see, but you get through. Mindfulness. As aware as possible, and then be even more aware. A tool becomes a way of life. If you're feeling something, feel it. It Really Is What It Really Is. There's a sense of peace involved when we help control the focus for our own betterment. It's very freeing.

[vanilla_essence]

I was introduced to the world of mindfulness by the ex. Pity she wasn't so mindful. I wasn't and I don't know if I am now. I prefer to say more aware and I can see how I'm behaving. It's not something I do everyday. I've followed Zen Buddhism for some years now. I tape into it when I need to.

I've also had a violent spiritual awakening that was induced shall we say by my ex. It was a kundalini awakening. All I can say is I didn't know what that was but sure as hell found out afterwards what that was all about. It's taken me years to come back down again. Just another nasty experience I had to live through due to the ex. I really don't like even writing about this cos it freaks me out. When it happened it was just wonderful. I had a total out of body experience. Little did I know what was to follow.

If anyone is interested here's a link.

www.mudrashram.com/kundaliniemergencies.html

I still get the spasms usually at night when lying down in bed. My ex was not qualified in any way shape or form to iniate this upon me. I'd almost forgotten about this until I read this post. I don't think it's anything magical. Perhaps a form of hypnotism. That's what it feels like anyway. Just another form of BPD control. And it worked.

[maria1]

Hi all and thanks for your responses.

I am just at the beginning of learning about mindfulness and I like to think of it as being in touch with the moment while being in touch with my emotions. For me personally it's not about meditation, although I am not averse to exploring meditation more.

When I was training as a psychiatric nurse I ran some relaxation classes. I was aware that the most seriously ill people couldn't cope with the usual autogenic relaxation techniques (where you focus on the physical feelings of the body relaxing). These people did however cope well with a type of relaxation based on transcendental meditation where you focus on one word and let the thoughts flow but try to not focus on them, just try to see them as traffic passing.

The website this article comes from teaches very basic concepts about getting in touch with our emotions and connecting with them. For me this has been the singular most important lesson since BPD relationship. Identifying the emotions has enabled me to challenge some of the beliefs behind the emotions.

I have seen 'mindfulness' used as a weapon and that disturbs me which was why I thought it interesting to post the link. I am uncomfortable when people say 'Well I practice mindfulness so I am very in touch with my emotions'. From where I am with it no individual is ever that complete to know everything about themselves and the whole point is to be open to experience.

I really don't mean to be negative about mindfulness but as Myself says, anything can be used negatively. I do think some people use it to disconnect from the emotions and then it must surely be unhealthy?

[livednlearned]

I am just at the beginning of learning about mindfulness and I like to think of it as being in touch with the moment while being in touch with my emotions.

Identifying the emotions has enabled me to challenge some of the beliefs behind the emotions.

That's so true for me, too. I tend to be very much in my head -- I wonder if that's true of a lot of nons? Ruminating, overthinking, trying to apply logic to everything, weighing my options, weighing pros and cons, I basically used thinking to handle everything, and had no idea that my feelings were equally if not more intelligent guides for making my way through the world.

The key to healing for me was not to pay attention to my thinking, or to learn mindfulness, although that is certainly a helpful tool. The key to my healing was to feel myself. I never applied how I felt to anything because I never treated feelings with any respect, or love, or understanding. They were so devalued and stomped on in my FOO that I didn't even realize there was a whole world of living and feeling going on out there and in here.

I had to punch through some awfully hard feelings to figure it out, though. I think that's what you're getting at, maria1. It's very easy to use mindfulness to dismiss the fearful and defensive walls we put up to protect ourselves from feeling the terrible loss and sadness of our FOO experiences, much less BPD experiences.

[beinggentle]

If you take a deep look into Linehan and DBT -  what you realize is mindfulness strategies are NOT about avoiding emotions, it is about controlling the maladaptive coping mechanisms the emotions caused.

Such a helpful discussion. Glad you posted Maria. And I agree what you're saying about some people using it to disconnect from emotions. I think that's where I was when I tried it a while back. That's what I thought is was for. I'd think ok, I'm supposed to focus instead on things around me, or nothing at all while I wait for this emotion to 'go away' so I can get back on with my day. But the emotions just kept coming back, or they'd just 'yell' louder in my brain, trying to get my attention. So your comment, Seeking Balance is very helpful. And yes, livednlearned - I am a big ruminater too. I try to sit with my emotions more now; just experience them while they're happening. They're tough though. And it often leaves me with more questions than answers.

[maria1]

For me I never stopped to really question my thoughts and what these told me about my feelings. I thought I knew myself quite well. In recent years though the emotions sort of started seeping out past the thoughts, sort of taking over. I was still reacting to the thoughts and the emotions but it all just got into a big mess. I've been holding in a lot of grief I think, grief overlaid with other grief through a number of losses.

What I've learned to do now is just pause. Before I react by talking or acting I stop. But also before I think I jump to the answer about something I stop; this helps me explore my emotional reactions more and how the thoughts link in. It's sort of basic Cognitive Behavioral stuff in a way. I do think meditation might help me because it will slow me down even more.

It's interesting about ruminations and logic possibly being important for nons. I have always felt that feelings mattered but I'm not sure how my FOO handled this. My father always tol me I was over sensitive. I have an impression of my mother being more emotional and the one to talk about feelings more but I can't really remember.

'It's very easy to use mindfulness to dismiss the fearful and defensive walls we put up to protect ourselves from feeling the terrible loss and sadness of our FOO experiences, much less BPD experiences.'



Yes I do think that's what I'm trying to get at. I think I see people doing it on the boards and i feel frustrated.

[livednlearned]

'It's very easy to use mindfulness to dismiss the fearful and defensive walls we put up to protect ourselves from feeling the terrible loss and sadness of our FOO experiences, much less BPD experiences.'



Yes I do think that's what I'm trying to get at. I think I see people doing it on the boards and i feel frustrated.

Why do you think it frustrates you?

[maria1]

Because we all have to grieve. If we don't do it now we will pay later. I have seen it so many times in my work and I see it here. We have to feel the emotions to get through to the other side but people have to find their own ways.

And if the pain gets too much they recycle. So it's incredibly difficult to go through the process. We grieve somebody who has 'died' because they aren't who we thought, they never will be again. I think recycling is so powerful because it's like bringing a loved one back from death. But it isn't real. We will just lose them all over again.

It frustrates me that people put themselves through it over and over.

[livednlearned]

It frustrates me too.

I think it's because I have been so bamboozled and tricked by slick talk. I have let thinking and logic and talking and humor and fancy rhetoric and high falutin' academic mumbo jumbo distract me from real feelings, pain and all. And that kept me from understanding what was real and true, which meant I kept going in circles.

It frustrates me because I was a sucker for it. In the thread where you originally posted this, I got so angry I had to step away.

[maria1]

I've always seen certain types of academic discussion as a way of avoiding anything that felt real for me. It's what I grew up with. It doesn't anger me now because I lived with it for such a long time. It means I bow out of the academic discussion and concentrate on the emotions.

I think I got good at bamboozling back with emotions- but two different types of brains never really get to meet in the middle.

I didn't realise you could see it was posted in another thread- it was split straight away. I think for good reason.

[livednlearned]

I've always seen certain types of academic discussion as a way of avoiding anything that felt real for me. It's what I grew up with. It doesn't anger me now because I lived with it for such a long time. It means I bow out of the academic discussion and concentrate on the emotions.

I think I got good at bamboozling back with emotions- but two different types of brains never really get to meet in the middle.

I didn't realise you could see it was posted in another thread- it was split straight away. I think for good reason.

I saw it before it was split and re-posted here -- I was following the same thread with interest. I've been trying to understand men, and it was a way to listen to some honest comments from men, altho I think ultimately it is about using language to obscure the real feelings.

What do you mean by being good at bamboozling back with emotions? And not being able to meet in the middle?

[yeeter]

Mindfulness, to me, is a state of being completely present. Taking note of your surroundings, how they "are" and how you "are" in them. I think it's separate from the emotions one has, though it goes hand in hand.


It's more the notice of emotions, being able to identify them and how they affect you. For instance, being mindful of when you are becoming angry, the physical effects, your breathing changes, your muscles tense, your palms may clinch and/or you can't think straight... etc.


The sooner you can identify a core emotion, the sooner you will experience it and move through it.

This very much resonates for how I think of mindfulness.  And I might associate emotional maturity to it as well.  (although I won't claim to have a great grasp of either... .  )

[maria1]

I mean that academics don't always want to hear emotional responses; it kind of throws them. In group discussions it can shift the focus away from the academic point to be made. But it sort of depends on the personality types in the group. I think sometimes there are opposite personality types and the two types find it hard to find common ground.

[yeeter]

I mean that academics don't always want to hear emotional responses; it kind of throws them. In group discussions it can shift the focus away from the academic point to be made. But it sort of depends on the personality types in the group. I think sometimes there are opposite personality types and the two types find it hard to find common ground.

Maybe certain types of 'academics' are trains to be logical and fact based.  If it were psychologists they might be more open to the emotional inputs?

Just wondering if the particular exposure is to academics that have been trained to rule out emotional aspects?  (engineers and physisists for example... .  Facts facts logic)

[livednlearned]

I mean that academics don't always want to hear emotional responses; it kind of throws them. In group discussions it can shift the focus away from the academic point to be made. But it sort of depends on the personality types in the group. I think sometimes there are opposite personality types and the two types find it hard to find common ground.

Maybe certain types of 'academics' are trains to be logical and fact based.  If it were psychologists they might be more open to the emotional inputs?

Just wondering if the particular exposure is to academics that have been trained to rule out emotional aspects?  (engineers and physisists for example... .  Facts facts logic)

Interesting point. I am wondering about this in my current new r/s -- new guy is a physician, and I suspect he is trained to not be emotional. Either that, or he is not emotional, and finds the work comfortable because there are low expectations. I suspect the latter -- his father and brother are engineers, so he would have had a similar low-emotion male role modeling growing up. My dad is also an engineer, very low emotional availability.

[myself]

Because we all have to grieve. If we don't do it now we will pay later. I have seen it so many times in my work and I see it here. We have to feel the emotions to get through to the other side but people have to find their own ways.

And if the pain gets too much they recycle. So it's incredibly difficult to go through the process. We grieve somebody who has 'died' because they aren't who we thought, they never will be again. I think recycling is so powerful because it's like bringing a loved one back from death. But it isn't real. We will just lose them all over again.

Wow, the part in bold above is pretty deep. Where does that come from, thinking we can even do that? Is it all just part of our 'dreams'? Our denial? Do we get so scared of life, at times, that we focus on what's 'dead'? There's a lot to that... .  

About emotions, and living them: I think I've been doing that, and it got me into trouble in some ways. It helped me be connected, harder to leave the relationship. If I had been being more mindful though, from the start, it probably wouldn't have gone down the ways it did because I would have been more balanced. Heart and mind would have been more together. One good thing that happens as we come through these situations is we're learning how to be our better selves, and then living it. My T says I need to feel my feelings, as far as they go, all of them. Work through them, accept them, release them. She also says I tend to think and think and think, as others here have mentioned you do, too. Think + Feel = Me.

[maria1]

Myself- I mean that the grieving we go through is similar to someone dying suddenly. We often go through a shocking change in behaviour; it's as if the person we thought they were has died, disappeared or gone just out of reach. So when they come back as they were it is as if a loved one has been returned from the dead, that powerful.

My exBPD accuses me of overthinking; he is right, but he also accuses me of over analysing when he just wants me to accept certain things and there I don't think he is always right although he is sometimes.

Is an emotional connection so bad? I suppose it is when we deny some thoughts which might be telling us to turn away from something damaging. It was ultimately my thoughts that took control to leave the BPD relationship. I kept thinking and saying 'this makes no sense to me'. I wrote it to him and to his ex wife when I went NC- 'He is behaving in ways that make no sense to me and I can no longer be his friend'.

Yeeter and Livedandlearned- my father was a maths teacher when he was younger but also an actor and theatre director in later life. He idolised academics and the world of academia. I remember him meeting a friend of mine who is married to a science professor at a top university here. His tongue was practically hanging out! Not because of who she was but because of her connection to somebody else who was a top prof! And the horrible part for me was I felt like he respected me a little more because I was friends with her- how twisted is that?

He loved linguistics and would debate academic questions about language for hours. He could also talk about emotions and life experience but in a very scientific/ empirical way. I am thinking that maybe it was a way of avoiding emotions.

[charred]

We grieve somebody who has 'died' because they aren't who we thought, they never will be again. I think recycling is so powerful because it's like bringing a loved one back from death. But it isn't real. We will just lose them all over again.

I think this is a brilliant quote and it fits. I had no interest in seeing my exBPDgf again... .  though it had been over 20 yrs, and I thought I was being over being abruptly dumped by her... .  but then she contacted me on FB, thought a call would be no risk, and hearing her voice just brought everything back... exactly like I was talking to someone returning from the dead, I was overwhelmed and confused/excited by the emotional flood and couldn't think straight... like seeing an apparition I suppose. The rest the experience was more like being terrorized by the un-dead however.

[FindingMe2011]

Maria,

I didnt quite get where this thread was going. If one looks around you can see tools are used for good and bad. This can hold true for almost anything. A hammer could be used to build a house. It could also be used to inflict harm. I then got to one your latter post, and it really resonated with me.

Myself- I mean that the grieving we go through is similar to someone dying suddenly

I had no idea where all this pain was coming from in the beginning. I would have a thought every now and then. "This pain, is so great, it has to be coming from somewhere else." Then right back to ex I went. I then explored PTSDs (  I thought this was for war veterans). I later realized, there was a great possibility, (I dont remember) I had suffered through these as a child. So when i became fixated(imagine that) on these words, it lead me to get on the "out of sight out of mind" bandwagon.(avoidance, cause the subconscious always travels the path of least resistance, and its my perception this runs deep on these boards). But for me and some others, we have children, so I see her, and

it's as if the person we thought they were has died, disappeared or gone just out of reach. So when they come back as they were it is as if a loved one has been returned from the dead, that powerful.

Back came the feelings, I had to find a balance.

We often go through a shocking change in behavior;

I do have narcissistic traits, as I believe many here do. So did I experience a narcissistic extinction burst, of sorts, along with a PTSD?

My exBPD accuses me of overthinking; he is right,

This was my way of avoiding my emotions, when they didnt fit, but my life also showed me, it was my survival skills I had developed.  I needed a balance. I took baby steps in growth, during the r/s, so at the end of 12 1/2 yrs, I had come a long way, but not nearly enough.

but he also accuses me of over analyzing when he just wants me to accept certain things and there I don't think he is always right although he is sometimes

I would get the  "You think your smarter than me, dont you", when I applied logic, her avoidance.  We both needed a balance. There were times I perceived her growing, and maybe she did, but not nearly enough.

Is an emotional connection so bad? I suppose it is when we deny some thoughts which might be telling us to turn away from something damaging

when we deny some thoughts, or feelings which might be telling

I dont think we should turn away, but confront this, in any type of r/s. The confrontation should show yourself or the other person, the misunderstanding, and provide more understanding and growth, for yourself, and the other. This is how I view the bond becoming stronger, not deteriorating.   I see this with my children. They once used to slam the door, and hide underneath their pillow, like it was going to go away. Time could curve it or lie to them and stuff it somewhere, but the behavior cant be denied. They now discuss these same type issues, eating dinner, watching tv, ect. ect., even in front of their friends they bring over.  We have a better understanding, and are closer to a balance.  Your bringing up of meditation, did have me recall an interview with the Dali Llama, I watched on TV. When presented with a very childish, light-hearted, joke. He was unable to comprehend it.  Balance.  I wish you well.  PEACE

[maria1]

Thank you finding me 2011- the 'turning away' I refer to is actually  the turning away I had to do from my exBPD. I turned away from the hold he had on me, the hold I had on him and started work on me.

One of the things that troubled me about NC was it disturbed my children that he had just gone. In a short time he had connected with them in the same way pwBPDs do with adults in relationships. They seem to find it easier knowing that I have LC with him, they feel able to express a wider range of emotions about their loss. NC seemed to create a fear of the unknown in them. They don't see him though. I'm working on my boundaries and contact with my exBPD helps me work on that and helps me teach my children things I never learned as a child.

I'm trying to support them with their feelings of loss, not just of my pwBPD but of their parents (my relationship with their dad). Helping them express their emotions and get some insight into the difference between thoughts and feelings helps me and helps them.

[maria1]

Charred- yes it is powerful. I lost my mother when I was 18 and my brother died when I was 31. I grieved for the lives they had lost but I only recently realised I avoid the pain of what I lost for myself. That was too painful. I think you have a very good insight into your emotional world and it inspires me to explore mindfulness meditation more. Thank you for sharing as honestly as you do.

[FindingMe2011]

Thank you finding me 2011- the 'turning away' I refer to is actually  the turning away I had to do from my exBPD. I turned away from the hold he had on me, the hold I had on him and started work on me.

One of the things that troubled me about NC was it disturbed my children that he had just gone. In a short time he had connected with them in the same way pwBPDs do with adults in relationships. They seem to find it easier knowing that I have LC with him, they feel able to express a wider range of emotions about their loss. NC seemed to create a fear of the unknown in them. They don't see him though. I'm working on my boundaries and contact with my exBPD helps me work on that and helps me teach my children things I never learned as a child.

I'm trying to support them with their feelings of loss, not just of my pwBPD but of their parents (my relationship with their dad). Helping them express their emotions and get some insight into the difference between thoughts and feelings helps me and helps them.

With children involved, it does give pwBPD, more weapons. I have had this discussion with my kids 12, 14. I understand how the house runs, when they are with her. The divorce papers include that the only contact is to be through email, unless there is a medical emergency. No emergencies since we have split, but tons of texts, and attempted phone calls. Over all, they, for the most part, understand what its  like to try relating to their mother, confusing to use their words. When they bring me issues, I dont make excuses for her behavior, but have taught them to defuse the situation. Its consistent, and thats all they are looking for. I have expressed, how this whole situation is half my doing also, admit when Im wrong, ect., ect., There just smaller, not stupid. Its not perfect, but we have an understanding, and know where we sit with each other.  It was over the holidays and my youngest handed me the phone. I said who is it? She said her mother. I calmly handed back the phone, and told her to email me. The youngest did this without any qualms, and we talked about it later.  I never received an email.  We will both keep learning, our children will benefit.  I wish you well, PEACE

[myself]

Myself- I mean that the grieving we go through is similar to someone dying suddenly. We often go through a shocking change in behaviour; it's as if the person we thought they were has died, disappeared or gone just out of reach. So when they come back as they were it is as if a loved one has been returned from the dead, that powerful.

Hi, yes, of course. We definitely do go through that. Thank you, it's a fascinating concept, with many angles to it. Going through grieving as I am right now, and having been through many recycles (or: Resurrections!), I've seen this process in much detail. Never quite put it in these terms, though. It did feel like bringing something back from the brink of non-existence. From being GONE. Strange, though, as well, as the person you thought was coming back seemed different now. Sometimes it has even felt as if some of us here on the site, myself included, have 'died' in certain ways, and are bringing ourselves back from it. Well: Here's to Living!

[charred]

Charred- yes it is powerful. I lost my mother when I was 18 and my brother died when I was 31. I grieved for the lives they had lost but I only recently realised I avoid the pain of what I lost for myself. That was too painful. I think you have a very good insight into your emotional world and it inspires me to explore mindfulness meditation more. Thank you for sharing as honestly as you do.

Thank You... .  I am sort of enjoying it.

I am finding it helps me to realize that I have more issues than I first admitted to. Starting to wonder if I have some kind of PD... certainly had the upbringing for it, and the ADHD may be hyperactivity due to other issues. Between ADHD and my pwBPD, and all the other little things... .  I am not surprised that I threw myself in to work and study and acquiring things, rather than people... .  my experiences have been that as I get to really like people... they leave my life, or if they stay they are disordered. That shouldn't always be the case... .  but at the moment, it covers everybody outside my family, and quite a bit of my family. Hope everyone's families are not as screwed up as mine. Used to think that wherever I worked was the most screwed up place around, now I have been so many places that it is clearly how they are messed up, not if... .  most the time. Always think of it as... .  the people that were idiots/lazy/mean when you were a kid... .  didn't change much in all likelyhood, they just got older, and they are the same people you run in to as adults and have issues with.

[FindingMe2011]

I'm working on my boundaries and contact with my exBPD helps me work on that and helps me teach my children things I never learned as a child.

  It was apparent to me that my ex, was the only person in my life, that I would except poor behavior from.( Actually later on, I also discovered, I did this with my mother.)  As the dust settled, and the anger had subsided somewhat, and we still had some contact, I found myself in this predicament. The children know enough about our situation, my behavior, my ex s' behavior, and they understand, I have an open door policy with them. As they would bring me issues, that they had with their peers, it was an excellent opportunity to introduce them to mental maturity, instead of piling on. To show them the ability, to be aware of their own behavior, establish boundaries, and how and why we should not accept poor behavior. It was amazing how much they could comprehend. But just as myself, we need little reminders, to not get sucked back in to the dysfunction. Ive never once, needed to use their mothers name. At 10 and 12, there are plenty of instances, to choose from. So they spend 50% of the time with her, they come to me, from time to time, (when the r/s, with their mom gets rough) and feel the need to tell me what she says. I reply mostly with a chuckle, and tell them " I know she does, she did it, while we were together. I didnt suspect it would change". It used to surprise them, that I had not much reaction.(hard in the beginning). So how is it, Im supposed to expect them, not to accept poor behavior, yet they see me, being hypocritical? I couldnt do it. She left me no other choice, and continues to rear her ugliness, from time to time. Shes' the only person, Ive ever did this with, or felt the need to. I now see this as one of the biggest steps I made towards, detachment, and letting go. Maybe some day in the future, this will change. Its up to her,if the past year and a half continues, I see NC continuing. It also brings up the fact, that through out all of this, her behavior falls right in line, with everything I learned.( I did this the hard way at first) I dont see how cracking the door open, is going to help me, her or our children. Not that I would recycle, but the drama involved is something I dont need, nor want. Ive gotten used to not being around people, that dont need constant monitoring in some form or fashion, or feel the need to stay one step in front of, it was too exhausting. We shared a trauma bond, that I will never forget, the good, and the bad. I no longer feel the need.

       Strange, though, as well, as the person you thought was coming back seemed different now.

This was when I realized, I had actually seen her for who she was. With no anger,sadness,love, or happiness. The blinders came off, for the first time in my life. It showed me how narrow alot of my past views really were. It was different, because I had grown. Erased the fairy tale, but except for sporadic happiness, what did I truly lose? What did I gain? The more I continue this path, the plus side gets greater, for me and my children.

 Sometimes it has even felt as if some of us here on the site, myself included, have 'died' in certain ways

All have felt this in some form or fashion. Keep working and pushing. Ive come to see that all the qualities, I thought I had lost, were just hiding for a while. What actually had died, was a whole lot of faulty thinking.

I'm trying to support them with their feelings of loss, not just of my pwBPD but of their parents (my relationship with their dad)

Its hard, for everyone, my kids got/get to feel the wrath from 2 adults they trust (hopefully). With no ability to control the situation, or have a say. For that, i have apologized many times to them, and made sure, they understood it wasnt their fault. At one point oldest had come to the conclusion, from watching and talking with her cousins (they also live in her household) that there was nothing I could do. I said "there is some truth in this, but the bottom line. We both acted poorly, and nobody made us get into a r/s. I hope you learn to make better decisions than we did." It was more understanding and growing. So I continue to do the best I can, learning, teaching, admitting my mistakes, making sure my kids dont walk behind me, or in front of me, but beside me. Just as expect everyone I love, NOW

[maria1]

'Maybe some day in the future, this will change. Its up to her,if the past year and a half continues, I see NC continuing. It also brings up the fact, that through out all of this, her behavior falls right in line, with everything I learned.( I did this the hard way at first) I dont see how cracking the door open, is going to help me, her or our children.'

We all have to make our own choices about contact. I wouldn't let my BPDex near my children because I realised, once I understood about BPD, that he pushed and pulled and triangulated with them in a way they don't need to be around. But he isn't their parent and was in their lives for less than a year, so I'm lucky I can make that choice. He doesn't trample my boundaries at all now because he knows I'll go NC if I feel that happening. Aside from all my emotional feelings about detachment and NC, NC can cause him to stalk me and I don't want any risk of him becoming so crazy he does something in desperation which would scare my children. I can manage it all better this way and have control where I need it.

However I have started to look at my relationship with their father in a different light. We have been split up for over 4 years and he has just moved in with his new partner who he has been with for that time. The boundaries stuff, validation and helping my children look after their emotional health is more important in their relationship with their dad and his new partner than with BPDex. Like an adult, they responded to BPDex because he filled a gap that was missing in their lives, both from their father and from me. That's been the biggest lesson for me.

[FindingMe2011]

He doesn't trample my boundaries at all now because he knows I'll go NC if I feel that happening.

This looks to me as a way to keep control ( you use this word) of a dysfunctional r/s

Aside from all my emotional feelings about detachment and NC, NC can cause him to stalk me and I don't want any risk of him becoming so crazy he does something in desperation which would scare my children.

This appears to me, as justification for your need to control a situation. NC could also have him (in time) move on and remove some of the dysfunction. When i first did this, I had strong feelings of guilt and shame come across me. Then we twist, turn, and neatly fit, to see what we want to see. The origin of why we break NC. I stayed in a dysfunctional r/s, with the excuse of our kids. When is, what is best for you going to come into play? Do you believe staying attached to this disordered  person is what is best for you?,  Or is this not important and the kids possibility of being scared is.    Does this sound logical? Is it possible things become too hard, and you subconsciously take the path of least resistance. Is it possible he will one day, become very dysregulated because of your threats of NC?... .  When i realized I didnt truly understand myself, and figured out this was going to take some time. This is what I told myself. Im going to completely detach, and at that time, I will re-evaluate this r/s, if its even available to me. For now Im going to ask for space, to do this. ... .  I cant help but to put myself in your new r/s shoes, and have to question his motives, and understanding... .  I also wonder how 3 father figures, in your children s' lives, is beneficial? It looks a bit confusing.

          Like an adult, they responded to BPDex because he filled a gap that was missing in their lives, both from their father and from me. 

Is this what your children told you?, or is this how you see it?... .  

What is it that would keep us in a r/s with someone whom we know is toxic/dysfunctional? The same thing, that put us in it, in the first place. Shame, fear, and guilt. This is at the core, not everything else we tell ourselves, that is just the bi-products

... .  I wish you well, PEACE   

[maria1]

Not exactly- the detachment is happening because he doesn't get what he wants from me. He is finding other sources to meet his needs. I don't meet his needs any more so his need for contact becomes less. My need for contact is another matter and I have to be aware of my own emotions under it. I don't need to threaten NC and I never have. After I reconnected with him there were two occasions he kept contacting me when I asked him to stop. I stopped responding. My children don't have 3 father figures in their lives. But they do remember BPDex and talk about him at times, wonder how he is. I don't think that's too unnatural. I am managing the situation on a way that, to me, seems the best way of detaching for me, my ex and my children.

I ended contact with BPDex 6 months ago. I have limited contact with him now and my children know that I have that. They dont see him. They won't meet my new boyfriend for a long time if at all. I learnt that lesson already. I kept BPDex largely away from them for a long time, but he quickly connected with them. I take responsibility for that.

CC has removed the dysfunction and he is detaching. It's working for me perhaps as the path of least resistance but its not easy. As I say we all have out choices to make about contact. If I truly am in denial I will know sooner or later but I'm trying to stay connected to the emotions that are still triggered through keeping up the connection. I had and would have other emotions with NC. If we are both detaching I don't see that it should be a concern. 

[nonhere]

Going back to the original post - this is a really interesting article.  Thank, maria1, for posting this.

I recognised a lot of things I've wondered about in the article.  Referring both to my last 3 years getting over this BPDr/s, and to an earlier period in my life, over 10 years ago.  At that time I was going to move a long way (about as far as you can on this Earth) to see if a r/s with someone I now believe was also a pwBPD could work out.  I started going to Buddhist meditation classes.  The monk leading the classes was a fantastic guy and great teacher.  I still think I got a lot out of this meditation practice (and still do, when I'm disciplined enough to do it).  But I knew that what I was proposing to do (move across the world) was a very risky undertaking.  I was worried about it, that I might have been making the wrong decision.

I remember wondering, so clearly, what I was doing.  And I wanted to ask the monk this question: "Is it possible to use meditation to make yourself feel better, or to cope more sanely, when the real problem is actually that you're doing something you shouldn't, that is harmful to yourself?  Is this what I'm doing?  Shouldn't I stop meditating, and address that actual problem instead?  If I stopped meditating, perhaps this problem would show itself to me "unpadded" as it were, and I'd have to solve it?  Then go back to meditating?".  I never did ask this question.  I'm sure this monk would have given an interesting reply; in the Buddhist centre he was part of there was an enormous amount of work getting done - monks grappling with the real world as well as meditating.

In the end, I did move.  And it was emotionally very harmful to me.  Though not just that, of course.  And looking back, I think that just possibly, that meditation practice enabled me (in a positive sense of "enabling" to do something that I simply had to do - give it a try, go and see - with less harm to myself than otherwise.  Because I was agonised over it: I knew this move was a hugely dangerous gamble; but I thought I'd never forgive myself if I didn't go and face the problem (this woman) face to face.  Perhaps, rather than deluding me, the meditation actually helped me realise that action had to be taken, and gave me courage to take that action - even though taking the action ended up devastating me emotionally?

And then, more recently: I look back at all the discipline I used to keep myself sane and healthy (mind and body), while I was getting over this latest r/s in the last 3 years.  Or rather, for the first 18-24 months, still hoping that something of it could be salvaged.  Which thought makes me think: what was the point of all that discipline I practised, if my life (and perhaps the discipline itself) was revolving around a delusion?    Would it perhaps have been better for me if I'd simply collapsed emotionally instead, thrown myself on someone's mercy, ranted and raged and got it all over?  (Whose mercy?  The BPDex's?  A replacement?)

I think I've led this question away from whether mindfulness meditation can be bad for you, and onto something more general: that the aftermath of this latest BPD r/s has dented my belief in any habit or practice I know (or have, or am - being enduring is a big part of my identity) that allows me to put up with difficult things.  Because I've put up with things I shouldn't have put up with.  It's confusing for me at the moment - I'm wondering whether there's any virtue in putting up with difficult things at all!  (I'm sure it'll turn out there is - it's just hard not knowing, still sifting through the rubble).  Right now, as in my question that I never asked the monk, I feel that I've used my abilities for a bad purpose.

Thanks for a great discussion on this thread.

[FindingMe2011]

Not exactly- the detachment is happening because he doesn't get what he wants from me. He is finding other sources to meet his needs. I don't meet his needs any more so his need for contact becomes less.

This was very sobering to me. When I learned of objectivity, and that i was attempting to being emotionally responsible for 2. My need to know was quickly put to the test... .  All that I was learning was true, my behavior as much as hers... .  Did your new r/s start, as a result of ex finding other sources.

 My need for contact is another matter and I have to be aware of my own emotions under it.


If I truly am in denial I will know sooner or later but I'm trying to stay connected to the emotions that are still triggered through keeping up the connection. I had and would have other emotions with NC.


The connection, seems to be keeping you from the emotions you would feel, if you suffered through the abandonment depression, that NC would bring on. Another slew of emotions, that you seemed to touch. Your unresolved core trauma... .  You mention different emotions with LC, as apposed to NC, could you explain?... .  My experience was they were the same, just a little more intense.  I needed meds to even keep myself somewhat balanced/functional. Is it possible your drug of choice is people?... .  With all this going on with you, do you feel you are giving this new r/s, its best possible start? Appears like it would almost have to start off on the triangle. Guess were getting off topic.  ... .  I wish you well, PEACE  

 

[maria1]

Hi nonhere

It's interesting that we can all use any tool we want to convince ourselves that one or other course of action is the right one. Mindfulness seems a very powerful one- I was reading a discussion with Oprah and the guy is it Eckhart? where she asks how do we know when it's OK to accept something and when we should try and change something (www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/12/bad-memories-eckhart-tolle-how-to-deal_n_2260002.html). I don't really think he answers the question. That's not to say that takes away the validity of mindfulness but I think we all have times when we really don't know the truth. I am told I am easily led ( by people who want something from me!) but I have an ability to stand firm when I believe in something. I have such a driver to do the right thing though I can sometimes really struggle knowing what the right thing is. Maybe a part of it is accepting that there are no right answers sometimes. If we are in denial time will tell and hopefully we can learn from it looking back.

'the aftermath of this latest BPD r/s has dented my belief in any habit or practice I know (or have, or am - being enduring is a big part of my identity) that allows me to put up with difficult things.  Because I've put up with things I shouldn't have put up with.  It's confusing for me at the moment - I'm wondering whether there's any virtue in putting up with difficult things at all!'

Isn't that resilience in the face of adversity a codependent trait? Maybe the answer is learning to value and trust yourself again. Maybe letting go of the ability to put up with difficult things needs setting aside if it is causing you harm. I always thought it was great I was so empathic and sensitive to others; now I see it's caused me real problems in my relationships and possibly in my parenting too.

Thank you for getting us back to the topic. Your post is just the sort of thing I was wondering about.

[maria1]

Findingme2011- the contact I have really is limited and small in time. We were together 10 months. I posted before that the r/s ended 6 months ago but it ended in May so 8 months ago- I had 10 weeks of NC then a couple of weeks of madness on and off, not recycling, trying to convince him any relationship was impossible because of all that had happened and because of how we were together. Since September things have settled down and I stopped initiating contact, having similar realisations about my own behaviour as you mention. That ebbs and flows a little but on the whole we are just moving apart from each other. I think I've seen BPDex maybe 3 times since September? Once since my new relationship started.

You say 'with all this going on' but there isn't really anything going on. I think the abandonment depression happened during NC and LC- I can never have a relationship with this man no matter what he does, including therapy.

With LC the emotions have lessened over time in a similar way to them lessening with NC. I imagined too much with NC. He became something in my mind that wasn't real. LC let me see the disorder up close and I find a sad and frightened child. I knew when I saw him I could never sleep with him again. He is seriously ill. He was not abusive toward me although I do believe he would have become so. I respect that he knew that more than I did. I respect that he saw me losing myself to the relationship. And I respect myself for the course I've chosen for now.

My new r/s didn't start as a result of ex finding other sources. He has had other sources throughout. They come and go as I think they did when we were 'together'.

The new r/s is starting off with me having been damaged by not just the BPD r/s but relationships prior to that. If it has to be triangulation then there is triangulation with all my history and I hope there isn't. We both talk about past relationships but the focus is that we are getting to know each other. The focus is that we have both learned from the past and are both trying to work on ourselves. I had 6 months on my own after 10 months with BPDex. It was tough and I felt some pretty deep despair. But I came through, not by dating but by leaning on me and by connecting with me. That work hasn't stopped and it might not be complete. I'm not running away from connecting with the core trauma- I'm actually moving further toward it.

[Grey Kitty]

I still think I got a lot out of this meditation practice (and still do, when I'm disciplined enough to do it).  But I knew that what I was proposing to do (move across the world) was a very risky undertaking.  I was worried about it, that I might have been making the wrong decision.

... .  

I remember wondering, so clearly, what I was doing.  And I wanted to ask the monk this question: "Is it possible to use meditation to make yourself feel better, or to cope more sanely, when the real problem is actually that you're doing something you shouldn't, that is harmful to yourself?  Is this what I'm doing?  Shouldn't I stop meditating, and address that actual problem instead?  If I stopped meditating, perhaps this problem would show itself to me "unpadded" as it were, and I'd have to solve it?  Then go back to meditating?". 

... .  

I think I've led this question away from whether mindfulness meditation can be bad for you, and onto something more general: that the aftermath of this latest BPD r/s has dented my belief in any habit or practice I know (or have, or am - being enduring is a big part of my identity) that allows me to put up with difficult things.  Because I've put up with things I shouldn't have put up with.  It's confusing for me at the moment - I'm wondering whether there's any virtue in putting up with difficult things at all!  (I'm sure it'll turn out there is - it's just hard not knowing, still sifting through the rubble).  Right now, as in my question that I never asked the monk, I feel that I've used my abilities for a bad purpose.

It is funny... .  I'm not a person of much faith, but the one bit of faith I do have is that mindfullness meditation (aka Buddhist practice) is something that changes me in a way that I like.

It doesn't seem to give me any answers I don't have already... .  it just (slowly and sometimes inexplicably) helps me listen to my heart and decide what I want to do in a real situation. And real situations are often very complicated... .  it can be very hard to see what I'll feel good about doing later. And all too often I don't do it, or don't do it as soon as I wish I had. 

But I don't find that mindfullness meditation makes me "feel better" and thus enables me to do difficult things I shouldn't do. Perhaps other sorts of meditation would do that. For me, mindfullness meditation is about feeling what I am experiencing right now, pleasant or unpleasant, exactly as it is, and noticing how I feel about it. (Or perhaps I should say mindfullness meditation is trying to accomplish this, and getting much value out of trying no matter how badly I actually am at doing it!)

[charred]

Mindfulness helped to destress, as most of it came from worrying about past/future, not being in the moment. I think being in the moment and not reacting egoically could be dangerous with a BPD person... .  you could enable taking more abuse. The two really useful things to do would be track (practice running) and learning "50 ways to leave your lover"... .  so you have all that in mind.

[Grey Kitty]

Mindfulness helped to destress, as most of it came from worrying about past/future, not being in the moment. I think being in the moment and not reacting egoically could be dangerous with a BPD person... .  you could enable taking more abuse.

My mindfullness practice does cut down stress by being more present. But the result I notice is that I am more connected to my values, and better able to recognize that I'm in an abusive situation and choose to stop the abuse or leave the situation.

I'm less likely to try to fight back, justify, argue, defend, explain, or do something else that makes the situation worse.

Did you have different experiences?

[jp254958]

Emotions are fleeting, unless we surrender to them. If we surrender to them, they can overtake our entire life, and everything can spiral out of control.

Mindfulness is about becoming aware of our thoughts and emotions, and also acknowledging that they can pass.

To say that meditation has a negative influence on natural emotions is a bit of a stretch.  If we have back pain, are we unintelligible / avoidant by taking Advil?  If a psychotic takes antipsychotic medication, are they ignoring their true selves?

I understand the original argument... .  that people can be avoidant of negative emotions that are a natural response to doing something right or wrong. Meditation, on the surface, could be misunderstood as a mechanism to avoiding natural emotions (sadness, healthy shame, etc.). But in reality, being mindful of our actions and thoughts makes us “better" people.  We reduce impulsive reactions that we later regret.  We become more conscious to choose love and empathy for others when we're mindful whereas we would be more inclined to react emotionally / mindlessly if we weren't practicing mindfulness meditation.

I've never heard of lives becoming worse for people when they started meditating.

[charred]

Mindfulness helped to destress, as most of it came from worrying about past/future, not being in the moment. I think being in the moment and not reacting egoically could be dangerous with a BPD person... .  you could enable taking more abuse.

My mindfullness practice does cut down stress by being more present. But the result I notice is that I am more connected to my values, and better able to recognize that I'm in an abusive situation and choose to stop the abuse or leave the situation.

I'm less likely to try to fight back, justify, argue, defend, explain, or do something else that makes the situation worse.

Did you have different experiences?

No, but the topic was traps and that is only thing I can think of. I tried the mindfulness exercises in presence of my exBPDgf, as I agreed to talk to her after much prodding, and found that she is too much of an assault on my senses to keep present... in fact I very much wanted to tune her out. Mindfulness helped de-stress me better than anything I have tried, including anti-anxiety meds... .  they made me feel weird and I couldn't sleep for a few days after trying them. I found that nearly everything that my pwBPD came at me with was egoic and just noticing that helped keep from being manipulated by it.

I suppose if you are in to the rat race and accumulating possessions rather than authentic r/s with genuine people, mindfulness could steer you the wrong way. (Looking at it backward I think.)

[livednlearned]

I've never heard of lives becoming worse for people when they started meditating.

I liked how you explained mindfulness in your post. Thanks jp.

Looking at your sentence here about lives not getting worse -- I agree. I think people are rarely harmed by mediation, and when I think of people I know who meditate, I think I can see the benefits for them, and being around them.

But I've also met people who dedicate themselves to meditation (going on retreats, living among monks in India, meditating dozens of times a day, etc.) and there are some who seem almost misled by their practice. I don't quite know how to explain it.

I agree with maria1 that meditation alone doesn't appear to be therapeutic enough to deal with deep emotional and relationship issues. If a person thinks, "I'm a follower of the Tao, or I'm a Buddist, or I meditate daily" and therefore I'm advanced in my self-understanding, that seems like flawed logic. Meditation helps us improve, but it is one tool. I could meditate to help me deal with my FOO, but I think therapy  -- the deep muddy yetchy dark hard kind -- is what ultimately helps us punch through to the shadows.

[yeeter]

You know, there are even therapy junkies out there.  Like meditation, or mindfulness, or self analysis, or anything - when the focus becomes the process of it, instead of the underlying content, it can turn into a distraction from much higher potential work.

[seeking balance]

You know, there are even therapy junkies out there.  Like meditation, or mindfulness, or self analysis, or anything - when the focus becomes the process of it, instead of the underlying content, it can turn into a distraction from much higher potential work.

Balanced approach tends to work best.

[maria1]

This has been a really interesting discussion. For me, my BPD relationship and recovery from it has opened an awareness to patterns of behaviour in me as well as a need for me to get in touch with the emotions and the thoughts below the surface of my first layer of consciousness, which is the one I've operated from forever.

I had a boyfriend who told me he was once diagnosed with cyclothymia, a mood disorder. He thought himself to be incredibly strong at 'managing' his emotions which he'd learned through teaching himself basic CBT techniques. As I got to know him more I found him to be brimming with self denial and, looking back now, pretty disordered. Not that my issues weren't at play too.

I think mindfulness meditation is a wonderful thing; I also think connecting with our emotions and understanding them is a wonderful thing. What concerns me is when people use any tool to stuff emotions or not listen to them; that's what I see as dangerous. The difficulty with self denial is we can find validation for our own truth very easily in many different places. And we can do it to avoid pain. That's why I posted this, because I think we are all on a path to ultimately face our pain and dig deep within it to recover. That doesn't mean that somebody who uses mindfulness isn't doing the work they might need to do as well, far from it.

[jp254958]

As seeking noted, balance, in all things, seems to work best.  Balanced diet.  Work/life balance.  Balance of listening and talking.  Balance of giving and receiving.  Balance of emotion and logic (Wise Mind). 

I guess anyone who builds their entire life around meditating could become lost in the practice and ignore what life has to offer.  They could also ignore their emotions/pain that we need to process to learn and become wiser, stronger people. Sadly, I think some people have had such a traumatic past that mindfulness may be the only practical way for them to improve their quality of life.  For example, pwBPD are usually averse to therapy... .  even if they get there, they can idealize an then devalue a therapist, and quit. Perhaps therapy threatens who they feel their fleeting sense of self at some point, so they give up.  Mindfulness, I would think, is far less threatening than dealing with real issues from childhood and addressing primitive defense/coping mechanisms.  So maybe in some cases, mindfulness is the best replacement for real therapy because it can help balance BPD emotions, and improve their quality of life and for others around them.

For the rest of us without BPD, balance is the best approach.  Just as doctors advise 30 minutes a day for exercise, spending 20-30 minutes per day on meditation is a good healthy practice.  Acknowledging our emotions and the reasons they're trying to surface and actually dealing with our issues is also critical to our self-development.

I guess this was just a long winded version of saying I agree with Maria and Seeking, with a few rare exceptions. 

[DesertChild]

I was taught meditation as a kid. Several times... .  and it helped me get past my BPDm.

That said, mindfulness, Zen Buddhism, and meditation should be considered separate. They *do* overlap, but because both mindfulness and meditation are deeply personal things, it shouldn't auto-tie to Zen Buddhism. And just because ONE Zen Buddhist was bad, shouldn't also mean that all Zen Buddhism is bad either. You don't know if they are doing it right or wrong. I refuse to make snap judgments on all peoples based on one person because that's what my BPDm does and I don't want to copy that behavior.

So I'll define each and how it's different to me and go into some length.

Meditation- It helps me accept the here and now. It's not merely watching the emotions, it's watching the emotions and saying, that is OK. I am perfectly fine feeling that way. It helps to open my senses beyond myself and also see myself as myself and ACCEPT it is real. This goes against everything I was taught as a child from my BPDm. She said emotions aren't real or provable. Meditation does more for me that just connect me to my emotional base. It connects me to my higher thoughts as well and the clutter that often builds up there. It helps me deal with my stress and to sort where and when that stress is coming from. By accepting it, then I take responsibility for feeling and thinking those things, so I can create a task list in order to make my current situation better. I get to ask things such as "Why do you think those things? Where did that thought come from?" And I often find myself surprised when I delve deeper. It helps me not to project on other people how I am feeling and take responsibility to change it instead. Meditation is definitely not about control, which would make it anti-BPD. My BPD mom hates meditation.

That is NOT mindfulness.

Mindfulness, I think you can do without meditation. When done wrongly, it can be like hyper awareness, thus you can become super critical, but it really doesn't transcend beyond that. When and if I use it, I use it to track things like where in my body the feeling is being bunched up. When I was suffering from flashes from memories I didn't know, it helped me track where the feeling was coming from, accept it, and then I used meditation to sort and deal with the responsibility of what the flash was. But mindfulness really doesn't help me open the memory up and explore it if I need to or feel like it. Meditation does that.

Zen Buddhism contains a lot more than just mindfulness. It also contains the eightfold path, being aware of your own actions, living in the moment for the moment (Dharma) instead of trying to be aware of the moment, and both being aware of yourself in the space and just being in the space simultaneously. Do you know those moments when you see something so stunningly beautiful and you have no words? Or those moments when you are doing something you enjoy and your mind turns off for just a few seconds and you somehow feel connected, yet aware of yourself. That's how I view Zen Buddhism. It's those moments of calm and interconnectedness without having to force it. Of course people within the religion won't get that--that's the nature of the human being. But just because they practice it wrongly, doesn't mean the religion itself doesn't hold value. Just like the Crusades happened, it doesn't make all Christians evil. I am not Zen Buddhist, however, I think trying for those small moments and to do better good is not such a bad thing. To me Buddhism teaches that if you want to better the world you have to understand yourself first and then pay the world back by giving of yourself honestly. Not such a bad philosophy.