Mindfulness - possible traps

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

www.mindfulconstruct.com/2011/02/04/17-ways-mindfulness-meditation-can-cause-you-emotional-harm/

Please dont anybody take this as a criticism of mindfulness per se; it isn't. Its sbout how it can cause us harm if we use it a certain way. I post it because I believe 'mindfulness' can have a damaging effect and can stop us from connecting with our true emotions. It's a fine balance between managing our emotions, observing them and feeling them and working through the deeply entrenched beliefs that may lie behind them. I don't profess to having it right.

[maria1]

www.mindfulconstruct.com/2011/02/04/17-ways-mindfulness-meditation-can-cause-you-emotional-harm/

Please dont anybody take this as a criticism of mindfulness per se; it isn't. Its sbout how it can cause us harm if we use it a certain way. I post it because I believe 'mindfulness' can have a damaging effect and can stop us from connecting with our true emotions. It's a fine balance between managing our emotions, observing them and feeling them and working through the deeply entrenched beliefs that may lie behind them. I don't profess to having it right.

[livednlearned]

www.mindfulconstruct.com/2011/02/04/17-ways-mindfulness-meditation-can-cause-you-emotional-harm/

Please dont anybody take this as a criticism of mindfulness per se; it isn't. Its sbout how it can cause us harm if we use it a certain way. I post it because I believe 'mindfulness' can have a damaging effect and can stop us from connecting with our true emotions. It's a fine balance between managing our emotions, observing them and feeling them and working through the deeply entrenched beliefs that may lie behind them. I don't profess to having it right.

thanks maria1 -- you are the first person to say this here (to my knowledge).

My N/BPDx meditated for over 30 years and was a dedicated Zen buddhist.

He used to tell me he practiced zazen and then proceeded to say awful things about what a crappy little person I was.



I feel validated by your post 

[charred]

My exBPDgf stressed me out so much I was getting welts. She would antagonize me constantly, nagging for me to quit having anything to do with my exwife and to treat my daughter the way she thought I should, not the way I thought I should. I was torn between moving to be with my pwBPD... and giving her up and the stress was extreme.

Went to a T, who suggested mindfulness (Eckart Tolle's "A new Earth" to be exact... and I went to a bookstore and nearly didn't buy it as it was in the "New Age" section and I always viewed that as BS. Anyway a week after reading/doing mindfulness exercises... .  and I was least stressed I had been in years. I think it was the nature of the stress being that egoic weird... what should I do, what might happen, what could go wrong,... .  and my mind would race from catastrophe to bad thing, prodded by my pwBPD. Once the dust settled a bit, I realized that everything about the pwBPD... was that egoic type of stuff, there was little that seemed genuine, rational, necessary or good. I had felt off balanced somehow by my pwBPD and when I had my balance back... I no longer was very susceptible to her mind games, and after a few weeks, decided i was going to be the one to end the r/s, and I did, and it was the right decision.

As to dangers of mindfulness... well, living in the now... .  isn't going to keep you wrapped up in your issues, and for examining your issues, that is probably not the time to be mindful. I kept seeing a T, and though my original issue was at bay (stressing out)... had plenty more to work on... I was approaching 50 and holidays so I kept seeing him. Seemed for a while like a total waste... like there was little to fix... then some things came up that got me talking about my dad and it became clear that he was a raging NPD person, and that explained a lot (been estranged from him for over a decade... right choice.) Also some other issues made it clear that I had some kind of trauma issues and they may well be attachment ones... .  moved a lot of times, had a NPD father, a passive-aggressive mother (whose own mother died when she was 5 ... she is not a warm cuddly person) and then have had this horrible r/s with a pwBPD... .  so it looks like I have my own issues, and am finally getting to dealing with them. BPD is not something that is easy/likely to get fixed in another person... I would like my exBPDgf fixed so we could be together and it be nice... .  not happening, my dad... same story,. but I am with me till the end, so that is worth addressing, and T's can do pretty good work with PTSD type stuff, so it is promising.

As to mindfulness, I find I can compare the feeling of something in the moment with egoic stuff, and tell a big difference... the now, in the moment, is genuine, authentic and stress relieving. My exwife and I had a genuine though a bit boring r/s, and we still care about each other and have forgiven each other. My exBPDgf is a ball of egoic bad karma and the whole mindfulness exercises helped me to see it, to be stronger in resisting her charms (all I do is require her to be genuine and she bolts) and has taken me from stressed to relaxed. I don't think it is all that deep, rather common sense we forget; worrying doesn't solve anything ... .  pay attention to the people you are with and be present, forgive yourself for your yesterdays... nothing you can do to change them.

I would love to find some other truly useful techniques, information. So far mindfulness and these boards, and my T have made quite a difference... .  still have a ways to go.

[seeking balance]

I read this article and found it interesting... .  basically the first big thing to realize is meditation is not necesarily mindfulness.  I think folks think because they meditate they are mindful.

Overall, ANYTHING used to not deal with emotions is not going to help one become truly mindful.  Emotions (difficult ones) are... .  well... .  difficult. 

If you take a deep look into Linehan and DBT -  what you realize is mindfulness strategies are NOT about avoiding emotions, it is about controlling the maladaptive coping mechanisms the emotions caused.

People tolerate painful emotions in different ways - some use drugs or alcohol - others go from relationship to relationship - and stll others may do yoga or meditate... .  judging which one works best for you or me is really personal preference I suppose. 

[charred]

seeking balance-

Agree completely, saw the mindfulness as a way to lose the stress, but not blank out emotion. The idea of egoic vs genuine/authentic... seems to fit as well, and in my case anyway, just about everything from my pwBPD was of an egoic nature. It always seemed just a little off somehow, but I didn't know how to explain what was off... .  now looking at it, its obvious, the honeymoon/idealization phase was stroking my ego... the jabs later and the clinging, ego, the hater phase, mostly attacks on the ego.

[Suzn]

Mindfulness, to me, is a state of being completely present. Taking note of your surroundings, how they "are" and how you "are" in them. I think it's separate from the emotions one has, though it goes hand in hand. It's more the notice of emotions, being able to identify them and how they affect you. For instance, being mindful of when you are becoming angry, the physical effects, your breathing changes, your muscles tense, your palms may clinch and/or you can't think straight... etc.

Imho mindfulness meditation is likely more about calming the harmful physical effects to the body in this case, not trying to escape from the emotion. Furthermore, it can help one focus, to enter your Wise Mind, so that you can identify an emotion and track it to it's truer identity. For instance, anger=hurt. The sooner you can identify a core emotion, the sooner you will experience it and move through it.

Just my two cents. 

[laelle]

For me, mindfulness is just a xanax I dont have to take.  Its not about avoiding problems for me, it staves off panic attacks and helps me deal with myself better.

My problems are still problems, but the perspective changes.   They are problems I can accept and deal with VS problems that I am going to have a panic attack about and go off the deep end. It helps me to deal with my problems in a healthy way.

[myself]

I think just like anything it could be used in other ways than positive. Most times, hopefully not. If you're doing it right, that wouldn't happen. It's all about the focus. You don't always like what you see, but you get through. Mindfulness. As aware as possible, and then be even more aware. A tool becomes a way of life. If you're feeling something, feel it. It Really Is What It Really Is. There's a sense of peace involved when we help control the focus for our own betterment. It's very freeing.

[vanilla_essence]

I was introduced to the world of mindfulness by the ex. Pity she wasn't so mindful. I wasn't and I don't know if I am now. I prefer to say more aware and I can see how I'm behaving. It's not something I do everyday. I've followed Zen Buddhism for some years now. I tape into it when I need to.

I've also had a violent spiritual awakening that was induced shall we say by my ex. It was a kundalini awakening. All I can say is I didn't know what that was but sure as hell found out afterwards what that was all about. It's taken me years to come back down again. Just another nasty experience I had to live through due to the ex. I really don't like even writing about this cos it freaks me out. When it happened it was just wonderful. I had a total out of body experience. Little did I know what was to follow.

If anyone is interested here's a link.

www.mudrashram.com/kundaliniemergencies.html

I still get the spasms usually at night when lying down in bed. My ex was not qualified in any way shape or form to iniate this upon me. I'd almost forgotten about this until I read this post. I don't think it's anything magical. Perhaps a form of hypnotism. That's what it feels like anyway. Just another form of BPD control. And it worked.

[maria1]

Hi all and thanks for your responses.

I am just at the beginning of learning about mindfulness and I like to think of it as being in touch with the moment while being in touch with my emotions. For me personally it's not about meditation, although I am not averse to exploring meditation more.

When I was training as a psychiatric nurse I ran some relaxation classes. I was aware that the most seriously ill people couldn't cope with the usual autogenic relaxation techniques (where you focus on the physical feelings of the body relaxing). These people did however cope well with a type of relaxation based on transcendental meditation where you focus on one word and let the thoughts flow but try to not focus on them, just try to see them as traffic passing.

The website this article comes from teaches very basic concepts about getting in touch with our emotions and connecting with them. For me this has been the singular most important lesson since BPD relationship. Identifying the emotions has enabled me to challenge some of the beliefs behind the emotions.

I have seen 'mindfulness' used as a weapon and that disturbs me which was why I thought it interesting to post the link. I am uncomfortable when people say 'Well I practice mindfulness so I am very in touch with my emotions'. From where I am with it no individual is ever that complete to know everything about themselves and the whole point is to be open to experience.

I really don't mean to be negative about mindfulness but as Myself says, anything can be used negatively. I do think some people use it to disconnect from the emotions and then it must surely be unhealthy?

[livednlearned]

I am just at the beginning of learning about mindfulness and I like to think of it as being in touch with the moment while being in touch with my emotions.

Identifying the emotions has enabled me to challenge some of the beliefs behind the emotions.

That's so true for me, too. I tend to be very much in my head -- I wonder if that's true of a lot of nons? Ruminating, overthinking, trying to apply logic to everything, weighing my options, weighing pros and cons, I basically used thinking to handle everything, and had no idea that my feelings were equally if not more intelligent guides for making my way through the world.

The key to healing for me was not to pay attention to my thinking, or to learn mindfulness, although that is certainly a helpful tool. The key to my healing was to feel myself. I never applied how I felt to anything because I never treated feelings with any respect, or love, or understanding. They were so devalued and stomped on in my FOO that I didn't even realize there was a whole world of living and feeling going on out there and in here.

I had to punch through some awfully hard feelings to figure it out, though. I think that's what you're getting at, maria1. It's very easy to use mindfulness to dismiss the fearful and defensive walls we put up to protect ourselves from feeling the terrible loss and sadness of our FOO experiences, much less BPD experiences.

[beinggentle]

If you take a deep look into Linehan and DBT -  what you realize is mindfulness strategies are NOT about avoiding emotions, it is about controlling the maladaptive coping mechanisms the emotions caused.

Such a helpful discussion. Glad you posted Maria. And I agree what you're saying about some people using it to disconnect from emotions. I think that's where I was when I tried it a while back. That's what I thought is was for. I'd think ok, I'm supposed to focus instead on things around me, or nothing at all while I wait for this emotion to 'go away' so I can get back on with my day. But the emotions just kept coming back, or they'd just 'yell' louder in my brain, trying to get my attention. So your comment, Seeking Balance is very helpful. And yes, livednlearned - I am a big ruminater too. I try to sit with my emotions more now; just experience them while they're happening. They're tough though. And it often leaves me with more questions than answers.

[maria1]

For me I never stopped to really question my thoughts and what these told me about my feelings. I thought I knew myself quite well. In recent years though the emotions sort of started seeping out past the thoughts, sort of taking over. I was still reacting to the thoughts and the emotions but it all just got into a big mess. I've been holding in a lot of grief I think, grief overlaid with other grief through a number of losses.

What I've learned to do now is just pause. Before I react by talking or acting I stop. But also before I think I jump to the answer about something I stop; this helps me explore my emotional reactions more and how the thoughts link in. It's sort of basic Cognitive Behavioral stuff in a way. I do think meditation might help me because it will slow me down even more.

It's interesting about ruminations and logic possibly being important for nons. I have always felt that feelings mattered but I'm not sure how my FOO handled this. My father always tol me I was over sensitive. I have an impression of my mother being more emotional and the one to talk about feelings more but I can't really remember.

'It's very easy to use mindfulness to dismiss the fearful and defensive walls we put up to protect ourselves from feeling the terrible loss and sadness of our FOO experiences, much less BPD experiences.'



Yes I do think that's what I'm trying to get at. I think I see people doing it on the boards and i feel frustrated.

[livednlearned]

'It's very easy to use mindfulness to dismiss the fearful and defensive walls we put up to protect ourselves from feeling the terrible loss and sadness of our FOO experiences, much less BPD experiences.'



Yes I do think that's what I'm trying to get at. I think I see people doing it on the boards and i feel frustrated.

Why do you think it frustrates you?

[maria1]

Because we all have to grieve. If we don't do it now we will pay later. I have seen it so many times in my work and I see it here. We have to feel the emotions to get through to the other side but people have to find their own ways.

And if the pain gets too much they recycle. So it's incredibly difficult to go through the process. We grieve somebody who has 'died' because they aren't who we thought, they never will be again. I think recycling is so powerful because it's like bringing a loved one back from death. But it isn't real. We will just lose them all over again.

It frustrates me that people put themselves through it over and over.

[livednlearned]

It frustrates me too.

I think it's because I have been so bamboozled and tricked by slick talk. I have let thinking and logic and talking and humor and fancy rhetoric and high falutin' academic mumbo jumbo distract me from real feelings, pain and all. And that kept me from understanding what was real and true, which meant I kept going in circles.

It frustrates me because I was a sucker for it. In the thread where you originally posted this, I got so angry I had to step away.

[maria1]

I've always seen certain types of academic discussion as a way of avoiding anything that felt real for me. It's what I grew up with. It doesn't anger me now because I lived with it for such a long time. It means I bow out of the academic discussion and concentrate on the emotions.

I think I got good at bamboozling back with emotions- but two different types of brains never really get to meet in the middle.

I didn't realise you could see it was posted in another thread- it was split straight away. I think for good reason.

[livednlearned]

I've always seen certain types of academic discussion as a way of avoiding anything that felt real for me. It's what I grew up with. It doesn't anger me now because I lived with it for such a long time. It means I bow out of the academic discussion and concentrate on the emotions.

I think I got good at bamboozling back with emotions- but two different types of brains never really get to meet in the middle.

I didn't realise you could see it was posted in another thread- it was split straight away. I think for good reason.

I saw it before it was split and re-posted here -- I was following the same thread with interest. I've been trying to understand men, and it was a way to listen to some honest comments from men, altho I think ultimately it is about using language to obscure the real feelings.

What do you mean by being good at bamboozling back with emotions? And not being able to meet in the middle?

[yeeter]

Mindfulness, to me, is a state of being completely present. Taking note of your surroundings, how they "are" and how you "are" in them. I think it's separate from the emotions one has, though it goes hand in hand.


It's more the notice of emotions, being able to identify them and how they affect you. For instance, being mindful of when you are becoming angry, the physical effects, your breathing changes, your muscles tense, your palms may clinch and/or you can't think straight... etc.


The sooner you can identify a core emotion, the sooner you will experience it and move through it.

This very much resonates for how I think of mindfulness.  And I might associate emotional maturity to it as well.  (although I won't claim to have a great grasp of either... .  )

[maria1]

I mean that academics don't always want to hear emotional responses; it kind of throws them. In group discussions it can shift the focus away from the academic point to be made. But it sort of depends on the personality types in the group. I think sometimes there are opposite personality types and the two types find it hard to find common ground.

[yeeter]

I mean that academics don't always want to hear emotional responses; it kind of throws them. In group discussions it can shift the focus away from the academic point to be made. But it sort of depends on the personality types in the group. I think sometimes there are opposite personality types and the two types find it hard to find common ground.

Maybe certain types of 'academics' are trains to be logical and fact based.  If it were psychologists they might be more open to the emotional inputs?

Just wondering if the particular exposure is to academics that have been trained to rule out emotional aspects?  (engineers and physisists for example... .  Facts facts logic)

[livednlearned]

I mean that academics don't always want to hear emotional responses; it kind of throws them. In group discussions it can shift the focus away from the academic point to be made. But it sort of depends on the personality types in the group. I think sometimes there are opposite personality types and the two types find it hard to find common ground.

Maybe certain types of 'academics' are trains to be logical and fact based.  If it were psychologists they might be more open to the emotional inputs?

Just wondering if the particular exposure is to academics that have been trained to rule out emotional aspects?  (engineers and physisists for example... .  Facts facts logic)

Interesting point. I am wondering about this in my current new r/s -- new guy is a physician, and I suspect he is trained to not be emotional. Either that, or he is not emotional, and finds the work comfortable because there are low expectations. I suspect the latter -- his father and brother are engineers, so he would have had a similar low-emotion male role modeling growing up. My dad is also an engineer, very low emotional availability.

[myself]

Because we all have to grieve. If we don't do it now we will pay later. I have seen it so many times in my work and I see it here. We have to feel the emotions to get through to the other side but people have to find their own ways.

And if the pain gets too much they recycle. So it's incredibly difficult to go through the process. We grieve somebody who has 'died' because they aren't who we thought, they never will be again. I think recycling is so powerful because it's like bringing a loved one back from death. But it isn't real. We will just lose them all over again.

Wow, the part in bold above is pretty deep. Where does that come from, thinking we can even do that? Is it all just part of our 'dreams'? Our denial? Do we get so scared of life, at times, that we focus on what's 'dead'? There's a lot to that... .  

About emotions, and living them: I think I've been doing that, and it got me into trouble in some ways. It helped me be connected, harder to leave the relationship. If I had been being more mindful though, from the start, it probably wouldn't have gone down the ways it did because I would have been more balanced. Heart and mind would have been more together. One good thing that happens as we come through these situations is we're learning how to be our better selves, and then living it. My T says I need to feel my feelings, as far as they go, all of them. Work through them, accept them, release them. She also says I tend to think and think and think, as others here have mentioned you do, too. Think + Feel = Me.

[maria1]

Myself- I mean that the grieving we go through is similar to someone dying suddenly. We often go through a shocking change in behaviour; it's as if the person we thought they were has died, disappeared or gone just out of reach. So when they come back as they were it is as if a loved one has been returned from the dead, that powerful.

My exBPD accuses me of overthinking; he is right, but he also accuses me of over analysing when he just wants me to accept certain things and there I don't think he is always right although he is sometimes.

Is an emotional connection so bad? I suppose it is when we deny some thoughts which might be telling us to turn away from something damaging. It was ultimately my thoughts that took control to leave the BPD relationship. I kept thinking and saying 'this makes no sense to me'. I wrote it to him and to his ex wife when I went NC- 'He is behaving in ways that make no sense to me and I can no longer be his friend'.

Yeeter and Livedandlearned- my father was a maths teacher when he was younger but also an actor and theatre director in later life. He idolised academics and the world of academia. I remember him meeting a friend of mine who is married to a science professor at a top university here. His tongue was practically hanging out! Not because of who she was but because of her connection to somebody else who was a top prof! And the horrible part for me was I felt like he respected me a little more because I was friends with her- how twisted is that?

He loved linguistics and would debate academic questions about language for hours. He could also talk about emotions and life experience but in a very scientific/ empirical way. I am thinking that maybe it was a way of avoiding emotions.

[charred]

We grieve somebody who has 'died' because they aren't who we thought, they never will be again. I think recycling is so powerful because it's like bringing a loved one back from death. But it isn't real. We will just lose them all over again.

I think this is a brilliant quote and it fits. I had no interest in seeing my exBPDgf again... .  though it had been over 20 yrs, and I thought I was being over being abruptly dumped by her... .  but then she contacted me on FB, thought a call would be no risk, and hearing her voice just brought everything back... exactly like I was talking to someone returning from the dead, I was overwhelmed and confused/excited by the emotional flood and couldn't think straight... like seeing an apparition I suppose. The rest the experience was more like being terrorized by the un-dead however.

[FindingMe2011]

Maria,

I didnt quite get where this thread was going. If one looks around you can see tools are used for good and bad. This can hold true for almost anything. A hammer could be used to build a house. It could also be used to inflict harm. I then got to one your latter post, and it really resonated with me.

Myself- I mean that the grieving we go through is similar to someone dying suddenly

I had no idea where all this pain was coming from in the beginning. I would have a thought every now and then. "This pain, is so great, it has to be coming from somewhere else." Then right back to ex I went. I then explored PTSDs (  I thought this was for war veterans). I later realized, there was a great possibility, (I dont remember) I had suffered through these as a child. So when i became fixated(imagine that) on these words, it lead me to get on the "out of sight out of mind" bandwagon.(avoidance, cause the subconscious always travels the path of least resistance, and its my perception this runs deep on these boards). But for me and some others, we have children, so I see her, and

it's as if the person we thought they were has died, disappeared or gone just out of reach. So when they come back as they were it is as if a loved one has been returned from the dead, that powerful.

Back came the feelings, I had to find a balance.

We often go through a shocking change in behavior;

I do have narcissistic traits, as I believe many here do. So did I experience a narcissistic extinction burst, of sorts, along with a PTSD?

My exBPD accuses me of overthinking; he is right,

This was my way of avoiding my emotions, when they didnt fit, but my life also showed me, it was my survival skills I had developed.  I needed a balance. I took baby steps in growth, during the r/s, so at the end of 12 1/2 yrs, I had come a long way, but not nearly enough.

but he also accuses me of over analyzing when he just wants me to accept certain things and there I don't think he is always right although he is sometimes

I would get the  "You think your smarter than me, dont you", when I applied logic, her avoidance.  We both needed a balance. There were times I perceived her growing, and maybe she did, but not nearly enough.

Is an emotional connection so bad? I suppose it is when we deny some thoughts which might be telling us to turn away from something damaging

when we deny some thoughts, or feelings which might be telling

I dont think we should turn away, but confront this, in any type of r/s. The confrontation should show yourself or the other person, the misunderstanding, and provide more understanding and growth, for yourself, and the other. This is how I view the bond becoming stronger, not deteriorating.   I see this with my children. They once used to slam the door, and hide underneath their pillow, like it was going to go away. Time could curve it or lie to them and stuff it somewhere, but the behavior cant be denied. They now discuss these same type issues, eating dinner, watching tv, ect. ect., even in front of their friends they bring over.  We have a better understanding, and are closer to a balance.  Your bringing up of meditation, did have me recall an interview with the Dali Llama, I watched on TV. When presented with a very childish, light-hearted, joke. He was unable to comprehend it.  Balance.  I wish you well.  PEACE

[maria1]

Thank you finding me 2011- the 'turning away' I refer to is actually  the turning away I had to do from my exBPD. I turned away from the hold he had on me, the hold I had on him and started work on me.

One of the things that troubled me about NC was it disturbed my children that he had just gone. In a short time he had connected with them in the same way pwBPDs do with adults in relationships. They seem to find it easier knowing that I have LC with him, they feel able to express a wider range of emotions about their loss. NC seemed to create a fear of the unknown in them. They don't see him though. I'm working on my boundaries and contact with my exBPD helps me work on that and helps me teach my children things I never learned as a child.

I'm trying to support them with their feelings of loss, not just of my pwBPD but of their parents (my relationship with their dad). Helping them express their emotions and get some insight into the difference between thoughts and feelings helps me and helps them.

[maria1]

Charred- yes it is powerful. I lost my mother when I was 18 and my brother died when I was 31. I grieved for the lives they had lost but I only recently realised I avoid the pain of what I lost for myself. That was too painful. I think you have a very good insight into your emotional world and it inspires me to explore mindfulness meditation more. Thank you for sharing as honestly as you do.

[FindingMe2011]

Thank you finding me 2011- the 'turning away' I refer to is actually  the turning away I had to do from my exBPD. I turned away from the hold he had on me, the hold I had on him and started work on me.

One of the things that troubled me about NC was it disturbed my children that he had just gone. In a short time he had connected with them in the same way pwBPDs do with adults in relationships. They seem to find it easier knowing that I have LC with him, they feel able to express a wider range of emotions about their loss. NC seemed to create a fear of the unknown in them. They don't see him though. I'm working on my boundaries and contact with my exBPD helps me work on that and helps me teach my children things I never learned as a child.

I'm trying to support them with their feelings of loss, not just of my pwBPD but of their parents (my relationship with their dad). Helping them express their emotions and get some insight into the difference between thoughts and feelings helps me and helps them.

With children involved, it does give pwBPD, more weapons. I have had this discussion with my kids 12, 14. I understand how the house runs, when they are with her. The divorce papers include that the only contact is to be through email, unless there is a medical emergency. No emergencies since we have split, but tons of texts, and attempted phone calls. Over all, they, for the most part, understand what its  like to try relating to their mother, confusing to use their words. When they bring me issues, I dont make excuses for her behavior, but have taught them to defuse the situation. Its consistent, and thats all they are looking for. I have expressed, how this whole situation is half my doing also, admit when Im wrong, ect., ect., There just smaller, not stupid. Its not perfect, but we have an understanding, and know where we sit with each other.  It was over the holidays and my youngest handed me the phone. I said who is it? She said her mother. I calmly handed back the phone, and told her to email me. The youngest did this without any qualms, and we talked about it later.  I never received an email.  We will both keep learning, our children will benefit.  I wish you well, PEACE

[myself]

Myself- I mean that the grieving we go through is similar to someone dying suddenly. We often go through a shocking change in behaviour; it's as if the person we thought they were has died, disappeared or gone just out of reach. So when they come back as they were it is as if a loved one has been returned from the dead, that powerful.

Hi, yes, of course. We definitely do go through that. Thank you, it's a fascinating concept, with many angles to it. Going through grieving as I am right now, and having been through many recycles (or: Resurrections!), I've seen this process in much detail. Never quite put it in these terms, though. It did feel like bringing something back from the brink of non-existence. From being GONE. Strange, though, as well, as the person you thought was coming back seemed different now. Sometimes it has even felt as if some of us here on the site, myself included, have 'died' in certain ways, and are bringing ourselves back from it. Well: Here's to Living!