About to separate from wife

[empathic]

Hi all,

it feels like I've been on the undecided board forever. The past months I have found the situation increasingly unbearable, and yesterday was the final straw for me - when my wife started an argument followed by rage. I told her this was it and that I have made my mind up that I want to move out. She panicked and decided to tell the children before they went to school, a bad move that she later regretted.

A little back history is that about 9 months ago I moved out for one night, but she talked me into coming back home and continuing living together as friends - something I accepted back then.

This time it feels different, since not much has changed in those 9 months. Eventhough rages and bad moods are more infrequent I feel like a visitor in my own home. I sleep in my own smallish room while she's had the big bedroom. She's decided on furniture and is the only one who has a proper work desk (yeah my fault too for being codependant).

So last evening when I get home she hasn't eaten or slept at all, and is a wreck. Thought I would have to drive her to the hospital. Bombards me with questions about how I feel or what I do and don't (do you still see your therapist? what did your parents say? etc etc).

On the positive side is that she now seems to realize she needs to do something about herself, that she needs to treat her depression, so she will try to see a doctor today.

She wants to stop me from moving out... .she wants to delay it, also suggests that we could continue living as friends (for real now). Wants us to continue travelling together. Tells me she likes me just as much as before (could have fooled me for the past 7-8 years... .).

Don't know what to make of it. Kids also ask me now when I will move out. I know it's her "pull" side that's come out now in the 11th hour, but it still makes me feel rather terrible.

I know I can't continue living like this for my mental and physical health. I can no longer concentrate when at home, don't get anything done. It also affects my job, and has for a long time.

Thanks for any input.

[empathic]

Oh, I'll add this question: am I doing her a disservice by trying to be too supportive? It's hard to be the villain and a caretaker at the same time.

This morning she wanted to lie next to me in my bed and just talk randomly about issues, to lessen her anxiety. Today her mother is visiting her.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey empathic, I've been in your shoes, my friend.  Towards the end, like you, I felt like a stranger in my own home.  At that point, I refused to share anything personal w/my BPDxW because I had been burned too many times.  After being treated like a doormat, and then fighting fire with fire, I eventually came to practice disengagement, which helped me but not our marriage.

Those w/BPD are experts at manipulation, in my view, so I suggest you be ready for the F-O-G.  It helps when you can identify which string is being pulled.  E.g., OK, that's a threat (Fear); that's using the kids (guilt); you owe me more (obligation).  You get the idea.  Forewarned is forearmed.

Suggest you be careful to note the difference between being empathetic, which is caring, vis-a-vis taking responsibility for someone else's well being, which is codependent.

I nearly destroyed myself physically, emotionally and financially in my marriage, so I get what you are saying.  The bottom line is that you will have to endure short term (relatively) pain in exchange for long term happiness.  In any event, that's the goal: to be happier.

Only you can determine the right path, but we're here to help.

LuckyJim

[Lucky Jim]

P.S.  You're not the Villain, so don't beat yourself up!

[HurtinNW]

I think in terms of what is best for her or you, doing things like lying next to her bed and listening to her talk may seem supportive, but if what you want is out of the relationship, you are dragging on the torture for both of you.

I'd suggest stepping back and asking what will be best for your kids. No matter where you are at, focusing on their needs will help guide you to clarity.

Co-parenting with a disordered person is going to be tough, so this is a good time to practice your skills in keeping calm, staying out of the FOG, and working on your side of issues.

My personal opinion is to reduce your contact with her until you both stabilize. You need to break the cycle of high anxiety for both of you. Focus on those kids. Perhaps consider looking into a Divorce Care group. When I split form my long-term ex of 15 years (not BPD but he had his own issues) I took my kids to a Divorce Care group. It was super helpful for the kids in learning it wasn't their fault, how to process their own feelings, etc. The Divorce Care folk had a group at the same time for us adults and that was tremendously helpful for me. You might see if there is something like that in your area.

[empathic]

Hey empathic, I've been in your shoes, my friend.  Towards the end, like you, I felt like a stranger in my own home.  At that point, I refused to share anything personal w/my BPDxW because I had been burned too many times.  After being treated like a doormat, and then fighting fire with fire, I eventually came to practice disengagement, which helped me but not our marriage.

Those w/BPD are experts at manipulation, in my view, so I suggest you be ready for the F-O-G.  It helps when you can identify which string is being pulled.  E.g., OK, that's a threat (Fear); that's using the kids (guilt); you owe me more (obligation).  You get the idea.  Forewarned is forearmed.

Suggest you be careful to note the difference between being empathetic, which is caring, vis-a-vis taking responsibility for someone else's well being, which is codependent.

I nearly destroyed myself physically, emotionally and financially in my marriage, so I get what you are saying.  The bottom line is that you will have to endure short term (relatively) pain in exchange for long term happiness.  In any event, that's the goal: to be happier.

Only you can determine the right path, but we're here to help.

Thanks LJ. Wife has requested us to sit down tonight and talk about this, so I'll think of your words then.

I also disengaged a lot a few years back, like a survival mechanism.

Wife has talked to a few wives of our mutual friends already. Got a message from one of the husbands that the guys wanted to get together with me and talk next week over a drink. He did not mention what he had in mind, but it's obvious that his wife has talked him into that. I don't really have had much contact with them otherwise. I initially accepted, but think I may have to cancel it after thinking about it. Not really ready for extra pressure right now.

[empathic]

I think in terms of what is best for her or you, doing things like lying next to her bed and listening to her talk may seem supportive, but if what you want is out of the relationship, you are dragging on the torture for both of you.

I'd suggest stepping back and asking what will be best for your kids. No matter where you are at, focusing on their needs will help guide you to clarity.

Co-parenting with a disordered person is going to be tough, so this is a good time to practice your skills in keeping calm, staying out of the FOG, and working on your side of issues.

My personal opinion is to reduce your contact with her until you both stabilize. You need to break the cycle of high anxiety for both of you. Focus on those kids. Perhaps consider looking into a Divorce Care group. When I split form my long-term ex of 15 years (not BPD but he had his own issues) I took my kids to a Divorce Care group. It was super helpful for the kids in learning it wasn't their fault, how to process their own feelings, etc. The Divorce Care folk had a group at the same time for us adults and that was tremendously helpful for me. You might see if there is something like that in your area.

Thanks for your advice. Yes, I will indeed try to focus on the kids. My wife got a number to a Family resource center in our town when she went to see a Dr.

I don't want to get involved in another MC process, but if they have resources for the kids, or for individual parents that could be great. I know that the school has some form of gettogethers for children of divorced parents here.

I would like to reduce contact with wife right now, but she needs me around to lessen her anxiety apparently. Not a situation I like to be in as I find it very stressful.

My own anxiety goes up and down right now - one minute I feel tremendeous relief about finally having started this process, the next I feel anxious about the unknowns and a bit of sadness thinking about what we once had, at the very start of our relationship.

[formflier]

 

Empathetic,

I'm a stayer at heart, so please understand that is where I come from.  I also have come to the realization that it is highly likely my marriage will not work.

I have changed a bunch of things, and I am a different person now.  If my wife would like to change and lead a more healthy life, that is her choice, it's also her choice to choose a different path.

Communication:  I'm curious about your reasoning behind not wanting to do MC or back out on drinks with the guys.

My recommendation:

Step 1:  Clarify the principles that you want to uphold in a r/s,

Step 2:  Take every opportunity to clearly and lovingly state your position and choices and invite your wife to share her thoughts.  If it turns abusive, leave the conversation.

So, I will venture a recommendation, but also want to say that I am interested in your reasoning for not communicating, and that may change my recommendation.

Go to MC and go talk with the guys.  Make those conversations about you and your choices.  Your wife may not rise to the occasion, but give her the chance, and the choice to do so.

Note:  The meeting with the guys thing is probably worth it's own thread.  Triangles are normally bad, but not always.  I want you to meet with them, but with proper prep work here.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

My own anxiety goes up and down right now - one minute I feel tremendeous relief about finally having started this process, the next I feel anxious about the unknowns and a bit of sadness thinking about what we once had, at the very start of our relationship.

Hey empathic, These are all normal feelings.  Why do we cling to things that are unhealthy?  We hold onto the familiar, no matter how harmful, it seems.  You could say that we get negatively attached.  Yet the familiar could be stealing our spirit.

In the words of W.H. Auden, "We would rather be ruined than changed."  We have no idea how good it will feel to break free from those attachments.

Unlike formflier, I'm skeptical about your meeting with the guys, which sounds contrived by the wives.  There's a danger that you will feel like they are "ganging up" on you to apply not-so-subtle pressure.  Suggest you determine whether you're going out of a sense of obligation or because you want to.  There's a difference.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

Unlike formflier, I'm skeptical about your meeting with the guys, which sounds contrived by the wives.  There's a danger that you will feel like they are "ganging up" on you to apply not-so-subtle pressure.  Suggest you determine whether you're going out of a sense of obligation or because you want to.  There's a difference.

LuckyJim

Oh, I'm skeptical, of course it is a contrivance.  If your position (stance, values, whatever) can withstand that type of meeting, then you probably have them right, if a group of guys can talk you into some new course of action, then the issue is not with the meeting, it's with you.

There is a small chance this could be a healthy motive (and not a contrivance).  With proper boundaries and prep, you can give them, and your r/s, that chance. 

Note:  One of the reasons that I left an alibi to change my view in the future is that if you have never done a meeting like this before, try it.  If you have already done a bunch of them, and they have all gone south because they were part of a manipulative plot, then skip it.

Same with MC.  If you have tried a bunch and they are just forums for speech making, skip it.  If some of the previous experiences have been positive (good growth), then give it another shot.

Big picture:  In life, I don't recommend people avoid things or make decisions based on fear, stay away from FOG.  If you are NOT doing MC or a meeting because you "fear" (think) it will go badly,    check yourself, control your fear and go to MC or the meeting with the fellows.

If you KNOW that it won't go well because you have experienced it multiple times before and there is no evidence to show this will be any different, then you KNOW what you are getting into.

Do you see the difference in FEAR and KNOWING?

FF

[empathic]

Separation has been put on hold for a while as wife is in too bad shape right now. Dr got a bit irritated that she had not dared try the sleeping pills. I convinced her to take them yesterday, but she still woke up at midnight with anxiety then hardly got any sleep at all. So she's still a wreck.

She's going to her mother this weekend. She needs someone around (or a call away) 24/7 right now basically, not sure if it's a subconscious defense mechanism against abandonment, but she's genuinely ill I would say. So it's really hard for me to not constantly be in caretaker mode.

Regarding meeting the guys, thanks, I hear what both of you say. FF, the issue I mainly have is that it's too early since me and wife haven't decided anything regarding the separation yet - not sure how to defend something then.

Wife told me she hadn't told the wives anything regarding separation, just that things were tough and that she was feeling anxious. Still, as I'm not sure about the agenda for meeting the guys I might cancel it - if nothing else because I might have to be home to care for my wife.

[formflier]

if nothing else because I might have to be home to care for my wife.

I'm a words guy, I focus on the language people use because that is usually the language they talk to themselves with.

Self talk is a powerful thing, it drives assumptions, it drives the default.  Once you start realizing that what was assumed to be the default, is actually a choice you are on the cusp of personal growth, perhaps a lot of it.

What happens if you change things to?, I might choose to care for my wife this weekend.

What happens if you change things to?  My wife may or may not to choose to care for herself, I will make healthy choices for me and my r/s and respect my wife's choices, even if I don't agree with them.

So, how do you find the "right time" to meet with the fellows?  How many times have you met with them before? 

Yes, I am pushing you to pick a different dynamic, I am pushing you to choose something a bit uncomfortable for you.  Leave your wife out of it for a bit, focus on you, let you wife do her own thing. 

Put on happy face, agree to meet the guys, listen and make no decisions  Start a new thread about what you think they are going to be after you about.

Oh, STOP TALKING ABOUT SEPARATING FROM YOUR WIFE. 

I'm going to modify Yoda's advice, there is no talk, do, or do not.

Theory:  We nons (me included, trust me, many that follow my posts are chucking at this advice) tend to believe that we can convince pwBPD with our words that we (the nons) are right.

Do you really think that one day, in a fit of calm reason, that your wife will say, "Ahh, empathic, I worship the wisdom that is you.  I have realized that you are right, we should separate, I should begin therapy to fix the problems that I have been burdening you with all these years, "?

Pretty good fantasy, but that is what it is.

If you want to separate, do it.   

FF

[Lucky Jim]

not sure if it's a subconscious defense mechanism against abandonment, but she's genuinely ill I would say. So it's really hard for me to not constantly be in caretaker mode.

Hey empathic, At the risk of sounding cold, I would say: Don't underestimate what a pwBPD will do in order to manipulate you.  Yes, it's a subconscious defense mechanism.  No doubt she has genuine symptoms -- by BPDxW once went to the hospital with a bad back instead of a Thanksgiving dinner that she was dreading.  In your W's mind, the symptoms are real, I'm sure.  Yet on some level you sense that she is happy to have you, in your words, "constantly in caretaker mode."  It's a stealth attack, so be careful.  As FF suggests, let your W do her own thing.  You are not responsible for the well-being of another adult.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

Don't underestimate what a pwBPD will do in order to manipulate you.  

I could tell stories,

Listen, one of the reasons that I want you to stop talking about separating is that fuels the fire.

I have a hunch that you need help on boundaries and "sticking to it"

If you set something and stick to it, even in the face of a huge extinction burst, you will end up with a better r/s.

If you cave in, "the monster" grows bigger, and much worse.

To be blunt, if you want to separate, you are going about it the wrong way  I assure you!

If you want to see what your r/s can do, how much better it can be you are going about it the wrong way

Don't beat yourself up, and please don't ignore this warning either.

https://youtu.be/_akwHYMdbsM

Trust me, you are going the wrong way,

FF

[HurtinNW]

I agree with the others, she is not going to be able to discuss a separation in a meaningful, productive way. If she was capable of that you'd probably not be separating.

Remember, you are dealing with a disordered person here.

Her physical symptoms probably are real, and probably are the result of her anxiety and panic around this. My ex constantly had physical symptoms whenever things weren't going his way. Headaches, arm twinges, mysterious pains... It was after coming here I realized this is common with BPD/NPD.

I will also say I don't think dragging this out in the end is good for your wife. Sooner or later she is going to have to deal with it, and the longer you drag it out, caretaking her, the worst it will be for her, because she needs to learn how she is going to move forward.

[teapay]

Empathetic,

It sounds like your W is tanking because you are trying to separate.  Is that typical or was she having difficulty for some other reason?  Tanking due to separation is one way to get you back, particularly if you have kids that need care.  That is pretty powerful pressure to pull you back.  If your W can't take care of the kids with you gone you'll need some plan for handling this.

Are the guys that want to talk with you your good friends, who know you and your difficulties?  If not, like Lucky, I'd be very skeptical.  I've been through similar talks with guys from our churches, generally husband's of wives and Elder friends of my wife.  The end result is generally them pressuring to stay with FOG and condoning alot of bad behavior that they don't have to put up with.  If they are you friends, that is a differnet story.

[Grey Kitty]

This sounds like manipulation/emotional blackmail/holding herself and her healthy hostage to keep you.

Whether she is aware she's doing it or not, the result is the same.

And the result of you caving in to it is also the same--nothing is going to change or get better in your marriage.

And I gotta say that talking about separation with your wife isn't going to help anything. This is one of those ":)o or do not, there is no try" kind of situations. Leave or stay. Don't discuss that decision with her.

And if you cannot enforce boundaries to protect yourself from her abusive and controlling behavior while staying, leaving sounds better to me.

[empathic]

(thanks for all the great advice in the thread, will have to respond gradually, trying to sort out my thoughts)

Empathetic,

It sounds like your W is tanking because you are trying to separate.  Is that typical or was she having difficulty for some other reason?  Tanking due to separation is one way to get you back, particularly if you have kids that need care.  That is pretty powerful pressure to pull you back.  If your W can't take care of the kids with you gone you'll need some plan for handling this.

It's typical for when we've touched on the subject previously. It's made it very hard to talk constructively about the relationship in the past. She hasn't been able to care for the kids this past week. I think she's starting to get back on track, but I'm not sure. Her mother is practically living with us now as support. That's great, but not a lasting solution of course.

When the kids were smaller I found a separation close to impossible, as I worried about their wellbeing too much to consider going through with it. I think it would be possible this time, if my wife can get treatment (which she seems willing to). She's expressed wanting a 10-4 arrangement though (me having 4 days). I'm opposed to that of course, but maybe it could work as a start, or some other arrangement with more frequent switches.

She's got a trip planned with a friend this coming weekend that I really want her to go on, as it would give me some breathing space. She's talked about cancelling it.

Are the guys that want to talk with you your good friends, who know you and your difficulties?  If not, like Lucky, I'd be very skeptical.  I've been through similar talks with guys from our churches, generally husband's of wives and Elder friends of my wife.  The end result is generally them pressuring to stay with FOG and condoning alot of bad behavior that they don't have to put up with.  If they are you friends, that is a differnet story.

No, they are not close friends to me at all. Our kids play together, we've had couples dinners etc. My wife now tells me that the gettogether had been planned since long by one of the guys. I believe that, but still not sure I feel up to going as things are. I'd much rather talk to some of my coworkers really.

[formflier]

 I believe that, but still not sure I feel up to going as things are. I'd much rather talk to some of my coworkers really.

This is the kind of thinking I am interested in seeing you change.

Instead of waiting for life conditions to be right for you to act, I want you to be the leader and act in order to effect change in life conditions.

You are the leader.

If you leave this up to your wife, what are the chances of a better r/s (either separated or not)?

Yes, you will ALWAYS have a r/s with her because of the kids, so, consider again your answer to the above question.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

She's got a trip planned with a friend this coming weekend that I really want her to go on, as it would give me some breathing space. She's talked about cancelling it.

I predict cancellation, if she's anything like my BPDxW.  The fear of abandonment is often too overwhelming, and their insecurity unmanageable, so don't count on any breathing space.  You may need to take steps to carve out your own alone time.  Just my guess . . .

LJ

[teapay]

What is your assessment of your wife's ability to take care of the kids alone if you separate.  If talk of separating knocks her out of comission, can she hack taking care of the kids without you?  10-4 might be a fantasy, but you probably have the best assessment of that.

Not being able to talk constructively about it can be pretty frustrating.  I think it is good to try, though, even in small doses to see what her cards are, but ultimately have your own plan on how to get where you want your life and kids to be.  You're probably the only one thinking and seeing clearly.

What's her mother make of this?

[ArleighBurke]

You sound like me... .

I realised I was wanting my wife to agree to me leaving - but of course she never will.

And there is NEVER a "good time". (I left on Easter weekend)

[Grey Kitty]

This 10 - 4 arrangement is based on what? Is it the first thing your wife said?

You are very used to letting her get her way, or asking her permission for everything. You may need to do it... .but make sure your not doing it just out of habit?

[empathic]

 I believe that, but still not sure I feel up to going as things are. I'd much rather talk to some of my coworkers really.

This is the kind of thinking I am interested in seeing you change.

Instead of waiting for life conditions to be right for you to act, I want you to be the leader and act in order to effect change in life conditions.

You are the leader.

If you leave this up to your wife, what are the chances of a better r/s (either separated or not)?

Yes, you will ALWAYS have a r/s with her because of the kids, so... .consider again your answer to the above question.

FF

I hear what you're saying. Right now my wife is in such a bad shape that I _have_ to be the leader. It could change fast, I would not be surprised if there's an anger phase around the corner. I will do my best not to back down though. Right now I need to focus on the kids as she's not able to.

[empathic]

What is your assessment of your wife's ability to take care of the kids alone if you separate.  If talk of separating knocks her out of comission, can she hack taking care of the kids without you?  10-4 might be a fantasy, but you probably have the best assessment of that.

In normal circumstances she would be able to take care of the kids, she is a good mother. Her problem is being alone, she can't stand even the thought of that. That's where the 10-4 idea comes from. From my viewpoint it's not a good solution, I've always had a strong connection to the kids and I don't want to lose that.

What's her mother make of this?

Her mother knows what my wife is like, there have been many outbursts over the years. When we met, my wife was not fond of her mother. Her mother doesn't really say anything to me directly about it, and I'm fine with that - it's like we both know what the deal is. She's sad about the situation though, she doesn't want the marriage to end.

[teapay]

Going through this with my wife more than a few times I think focusing on your kids with your MIL help is the best you can do in the short term.  Taking off work becomes a problem for me so I dread these times and feel for you.

I know my W couldn't take care of our kids by herself for any length of time, at least not until they are older.  I simple business trip for a few days, usually results in some diaster waiting at home.  If you've seen the end of the movie Poltergeist, where the house implodes into a hole to hell, that is what I foresee happening if she is given that responsibility even under the best conditions.  I know I'll have to take the major share of custody when we split which entails it's own set of problems and difficulties relating to childcare.  It becomes less of an issue of just leaving but of throwing out.

If not 10-4, what do you envision as acceptable and feasible---50/50?

[empathic]

Going through this with my wife more than a few times I think focusing on your kids with your MIL help is the best you can do in the short term.  Taking off work becomes a problem for me so I dread these times and feel for you.

I know my W couldn't take care of our kids by herself for any length of time, at least not until they are older.  I simple business trip for a few days, usually results in some diaster waiting at home.  If you've seen the end of the movie Poltergeist, where the house implodes into a hole to hell, that is what I foresee happening if she is given that responsibility even under the best conditions.  I know I'll have to take the major share of custody when we split which entails it's own set of problems and difficulties relating to childcare.  It becomes less of an issue of just leaving but of throwing out.

If not 10-4, what do you envision as acceptable and feasible---50/50?

My wife mainly had problems taking care of the kids when they were younger. I tried to avoid going on business trips back then, when I did go it was always with a knot in my stomach.

My main fear right now is that the kids get too enmeshed. My wife can't stand being alone but that is not a responsibility that should be put on the kids.

Best thing right now would be for my wife to get a regular job, part-time or not. She has way too much time sitting at home and feel sorry for herself as it is now.

50/50 would be acceptable for me as it is now. I think it would be for my wife too given some time.

[empathic]

This 10 - 4 arrangement is based on what? Is it the first thing your wife said?

You are very used to letting her get her way, or asking her permission for everything. You may need to do it... .but make sure your not doing it just out of habit?

It was among the first things she said, yes. I don't really want to decide anything with her until she's more stable (she's gotten meds now). I'm open for less time in the start, but want to go 50-50 as soon as possible.

It's very difficult for me to have any discussion with her right now, it is more like rambling... ."Will I still be able to see your parents?", ":)o you still like me somewhat?" etc. She gets some form of anxiety attack every half an hour.

[formflier]

I don't think you "got" the point of Grey's post.

You are potentially about to start a high conflict divorce process.  Most likely it will start amicably and at some point her feelings will change.  At that point, "game on, ".  Her imagination is the limit.

Even if you are well prepared that process will hit you like a ton of bricks. 

You will have to fight and "take" things from her.  Your posts don't display any of the attitude needed to survive, let alone "win" a process like what you are considering.

Note:  You can get there, we can help.  And, there is a chance a more "assertive" you may be able to be more successful in the r/s that you have now.

There is a certain wisdom that you will need to couple with assertiveness.

How does all of this sound to you?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Empathic, the whole pattern of your marriage is one of accommodating your wife's feelings, moods, and whims, out of fear of abuse from her. You are starting to peek out of the kind of fog you've been in, but those habits and patterns are persistent.

Going into separation/divorce/custody with that attitude is like a lamb circling the slaughterhouse with signs saying "I'm very tender and tasty".

And it isn't just you that will suffer from this. Your daughter will suffer too, and you owe her better. You are the mentally healthy parent. You have a responsibility. Live up to it.

Please go post on the Legal Board here describing your separation/custody situation and what you want and how you hope it will work.

The senior folks there are very pragmatic... .and most of them learned the hard (and EXPENSIVE!) way where that attitude go them.

You need a strategy to get what is best for you and your daughter. And you need to make sure nothing you do works against you.

It was among the first things she said, yes. I don't really want to decide anything with her until she's more stable (she's gotten meds now). I'm open for less time in the start, but want to go 50-50 as soon as possible.

It's very difficult for me to have any discussion with her right now, it is more like rambling... ."Will I still be able to see your parents?", ":)o you still like me somewhat?" etc. She gets some form of anxiety attack every half an hour.

Note--I'm not suggesting you have a discussion with her about custody right now, or that you ask for 50/50, or even ask for 4/10 (in your favor, not hers).

I'm saying you need a good strategy for taking care of your daughter, and you need to work toward it.