When Do They Feel Guilt or Shame?

[UmbrellaBoy]

The more I think of it the more I realize how messed up it is.

Guilt about hurting someone is supposed to be an altruistic emotion. It's purpose is to encourage you not to hurt them anymore or to make it right, etc.

But it's like for my guy, his response to guilt over "hurting" the ex wasn't to actually do what was best for the ex, but rather just to go back (ultimately hurting him more long-term) just to assuage his own discomfort from the guilt.

So it's like instead of responding based on the logic implied by the meaning of the guilt (doing what's best for the person), the guilt just became an illogical discomfort that he had to "compulse" by soothing it in the moment. And so, paradoxically, an emotion with an altruistic logic or cause... .is dealt with in a totally selfish way, totally defeating its own purpose in him.

[Ironmanrises]

The more I think of it the more I realize how messed up it is.

Guilt about hurting someone is supposed to be an altruistic emotion. It's purpose is to encourage you not to hurt them anymore or to make it right, etc.

But it's like for my guy, his response to guilt over "hurting" the ex wasn't to actually do what was best for the ex, but rather just to go back (ultimately hurting him more long-term) just to assuage his own discomfort from the guilt.

So it's like instead of responding based on the logic implied by the meaning of the guilt (doing what's best for the person), the guilt just became an illogical discomfort that he had to "compulse" by soothing it in the moment. And so, paradoxically, an emotion with an altruistic logic or cause... .is dealt with in a totally selfish way, totally defeating its own purpose in him.

Astute observation Umbrella.

In bold.

And that paradox... .

Is catastrophic... .

On those whom are closest to them... .

Us.

You.

Me.

[bb12]

So it's like instead of responding based on the logic implied by the meaning of the guilt (doing what's best for the person), the guilt just became an illogical discomfort that he had to "compulse" by soothing it in the moment. And so, paradoxically, an emotion with an altruistic logic or cause... .is dealt with in a totally selfish way, totally defeating its own purpose in him.

... .which begs the observation: if selfishness is at the heart of BPD, and everything (including guilt & shame) is about them and their needs and soothing, were we in effect non-existent? Just a mirror to try to reflect back any semblance of their good and deflect off all of their bad?

Were we so damaged as to settle for - and even want - this?

BB12

[Octoberfest]

So it's like instead of responding based on the logic implied by the meaning of the guilt (doing what's best for the person), the guilt just became an illogical discomfort that he had to "compulse" by soothing it in the moment. And so, paradoxically, an emotion with an altruistic logic or cause... .is dealt with in a totally selfish way, totally defeating its own purpose in him.

... .which begs the observation: if selfishness is at the heart of BPD, and everything (including guilt & shame) is about them and their needs and soothing, were we in effect non-existent? Just a mirror to try to reflect back any semblance of their good and deflect off all of their bad?

Were we so damaged as to settle for - and even want - this?

BB12

I can't speak for everyone, but I was just head over heels to fall in love for the first time.  I was 19 years old and had never dated before- it was like getting hooked on heroin or something.  New, and exciting.  It turned out to be a lot like what you described.  But I wouldn't say that I wanted it or settled for it from the get to.  To say that would be to assert I had both eyes open and knew exactly what I was dealing with, which is the furthest thing from the truth.  I was high on life that I finally had a girlfriend.

I will agree though, I personally believe that the Non is little more than a tool for the pwBPD to use in their quest to sooth themselves. For us to have been anything else requires an awareness of oneself as well as several other things that pwBPD do not have.  Careful when you say the word selfish though- remember, these are emotionally stunted people.  Children are selfish- but that is because they don't see anything outside themselves, not because they see everything and choose themselves over everything else.  That again requires an awareness of things that pwBPD do not have.

[Aussie0zborn]

I know my stbx wife felt guilty at times but I see no shame. We've just started on settlement and she has asked for 100% of EVERYTHING. (Three houses). This is the woman who was goingto lose her house when I met her and I bought into it and gave her and her kids a quality of life they only ever dreamed of. And she asks for 100% ? I don't see that she has any shame, hence posting this topic in the first place and with all the great replies I'm still not sure where her sense of shame is. I dont lose sleep over it... .its just a curiosity thing. I'll keep reading.

[DragoN]

I dont lose sleep over it... .its just a curiosity thing.

Same here.

[maxen]

if selfishness is at the heart of BPD, and everything (including guilt & shame) is about them and their needs and soothing, were we in effect non-existent? Just a mirror to try to reflect back any semblance of their good and deflect off all of their bad?

Were we so damaged as to settle for - and even want - this?

BB12

1: i used the phrase once, "do i not exist?" i also used "i'm not just an emotional punching bag." i really don't think my stbxw is capable of fully understanding that the person she is seeing is another human, to whom she owes basic debts of consideration. her SOs are there to supplete something in her.

2: in my case, yes. i was clearly replaying a dynamic that was established in my early life, grasping after a recognition that wasn't going to come. my mother is paranoiac and has to be right about everything, and one of my two previous serious gfs was a narcissist. now, my w has hugely attractive qualities and i valued them so much, but she never, ever addressed my issues (responding either with backbiting or silence) and that triggered the pattern, a sick pattern of pleading and anger when the pleading didn't work, but it was the pattern i knew. this has to stop.

[Waifed]

I believe my ex truly felt shame when I caught her cheating. She outwardly raged and cried uncontrollably for two straight days. She would not let me leave her side and repeatedly apologized for two straight days. Part of this was probably because she knew I was going to leave her.  BTW, towards the end of Day 2 it turned in to me "Torturing" her.  Shame only lasts for a while I guess.

[Ironmanrises]

if selfishness is at the heart of BPD, and everything (including guilt & shame) is about them and their needs and soothing, were we in effect non-existent? Just a mirror to try to reflect back any semblance of their good and deflect off all of their bad?

Were we so damaged as to settle for - and even want - this?

BB12

1: i used the phrase once, "do i not exist?" i also used "i'm not just an emotional punching bag." i really don't think my stbxw is capable of fully understanding that the person she is seeing is another human, to whom she owes basic debts of consideration. her SOs are there to supplete something in her.

2: in my case, yes. i was clearly replaying a dynamic that was established in my early life, grasping after a recognition that wasn't going to come. my mother is paranoiac and has to be right about everything, and one of my two previous serious gfs was a narcissist. now, my w has hugely attractive qualities and i valued them so much, but she never, ever addressed my issues (responding either with backbiting or silence) and that triggered the pattern, a sick pattern of pleading and anger when the pleading didn't work, but it was the pattern i knew. this has to stop.

In bold.

I used same exact phrases too.

Her response.

Silence.

Just f¥cking silence.

And that... .

Silence... .

Echoes still.

[huhhuh]

" ... .no one else liked it ... .so set it free again!"

Haha... Very funny rewritten 

[EdR]

if selfishness is at the heart of BPD, and everything (including guilt & shame) is about them and their needs and soothing, were we in effect non-existent? Just a mirror to try to reflect back any semblance of their good and deflect off all of their bad?

Were we so damaged as to settle for - and even want - this?

BB12

1: i used the phrase once, "do i not exist?" i also used "i'm not just an emotional punching bag." i really don't think my stbxw is capable of fully understanding that the person she is seeing is another human, to whom she owes basic debts of consideration. her SOs are there to supplete something in her.

2: in my case, yes. i was clearly replaying a dynamic that was established in my early life, grasping after a recognition that wasn't going to come. my mother is paranoiac and has to be right about everything, and one of my two previous serious gfs was a narcissist. now, my w has hugely attractive qualities and i valued them so much, but she never, ever addressed my issues (responding either with backbiting or silence) and that triggered the pattern, a sick pattern of pleading and anger when the pleading didn't work, but it was the pattern i knew. this has to stop.

In bold.

I used same exact phrases too.

Her response.

Silence.

Just f¥cking silence.

And that... .

Silence... .

Echoes still.

Yeah, that silence is really the hardest part. Had the same experience (different situation though). Is there actually a way to break the silence? Did anyone succeed?

Because the only way I can break the silence is probably by saying the 'wrong' things, or just waiting for them to come back to you (which eventually always seems to happen).

[fromheeltoheal]

Interesting vignette:

I took my borderline out to sushi, which she loved, when not triggered.  She sat there the entire meal barely stuffing the desire to rage for no apparent reason in a crowded restaurant, a look on her face that would have been appropriate had a dog farted when she was constipated.  

I 'tolerated' it, but as we were leaving I said "thank you for dinner Heal", strongly implying that she didn't thank me, which she didn't, too hung up on her own sht to be courteous.  She immediately said she had, and went into "what, so you want me to say it several ways?", and then launched into 'thank you' in several different stupid accents.  But she knew she hadn't, and knew I knew; the shame immediately overtook her, and she now needed ice cream, a favorite soothe device, which we got.  She then sat in a booth in the ice cream shop with the most intensely ashamed look I'd ever seen, and shifted the conversation to something benign.  Of course I let it go, knowing by then that any pressing of the matter would prompt a rage explosion; dysfunction all around.

[Ironmanrises]

Ed... .

They break the silence... .

When/If they return.

That is what mine did.

There will not be a third time.

[maxen]

I 'tolerated' it

heel, i see you've put 'tolerated' in quotes, so i'm going to run with it. at our last (disastrous) meeting, she accused me (amongst many, many other things) of 'only tolerating' certain things about her. these things would include pass-out drunkenness, massive disorganization, complete passivity as a housemate. in her mind, whether on account of the BPD or growing up in a household where her father never said anything chiding to his appalling wife ever, every single facet of her personality was to be embraced and cherished. well i loved her through the drinking, though it was hard sometimes, but on what planet do all couples just worship everything about their spouses?

[fromheeltoheal]

I 'tolerated' it

heel, i see you've put 'tolerated' in quotes, so i'm going to run with it. at our last (disastrous) meeting, she accused me (amongst many, many other things) of 'only tolerating' certain things about her. these things would include pass-out drunkenness, massive disorganization, complete passivity as a housemate. in her mind, whether on account of the BPD or growing up in a household where her father never said anything chiding to his appalling wife ever, every single facet of her personality was to be embraced and cherished. well i loved her through the drinking, though it was hard sometimes, but on what planet do all couples just worship everything about their spouses?

It wasn't about worshiping to me, it was about taking the easier path; it was much easier to stuff what was on my mind, because any sort of pressing into an adult conversation would result in blame and rage, and it just wasn't worth it.  I give myself credit for seeing the issues that needed to be discussed, having that awareness, although the stuffing it was chickensht on my part, and it wasn't until it got so incredibly painful that I said fck it and bailed.

I think it is possible to love someone despite their defects, maybe partly because of them, and a great relationship makes the things you don't like about a person tolerable because the things you do like are so much bigger.  That's with ordered personalities, not disordered ones mind you.

[maxen]

a great relationship makes the things you don't like about a person tolerable because the things you do like are so much bigger.

 

oh indeed. her point was that nothing should be just tolerated, everything should be loved or passed over in silence. i found it odd to the point of discomfort that she never had any issue with my habits. it was like she wasn't paying attention.

That's with ordered personalities, not disordered ones mind you.

check.

[fromheeltoheal]

a great relationship makes the things you don't like about a person tolerable because the things you do like are so much bigger.

 

oh indeed. her point was that nothing should be just tolerated, everything should be loved or passed over in silence. i found it odd to the point of discomfort that she never had any issue with my habits. it was like she wasn't paying attention.

That's with ordered personalities, not disordered ones mind you.

check.

Yes, to me that's the black and white nature of the disorder, unfortunate since most of life is gray.

And she wasn't paying attention, she couldn't, her own hell was a full time job.

Thanks for the insights maxen!