Successful boundary setting with MIL Part 3

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Mod Note:  Part 2 is located here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345792.0;all

Regarding the grout.  

In person, did you ask her to show you her concern?  

Was this ever discussed further?

I didn't, and it wasn't. It felt too risky. She was in the middle of the biggest move of her life, an emotional minefield with bigger fish to fry. H was on high alert, anxious and feeling her feelings. It didn't feel like the right time to bring this to their attention. I just needed a confirmation look-see for my peace of mind.

And I'm realizing that that's the way they set things up a lot. Always a crisis, always most important, no one else's feelings ever rise to that level of priority.

(OBTW..I've done lots of tiling and been around lots of tile people and I would not understand "grout coming out")

I've seen grout chip out after years and years of use. It happened in our bathroom 10+ years after installation, probably because of an unstable subfloor. I used a sanded grout in MIL's bathroom that was fairly thick, only a few months old when she complained.

I had major doubts there was an issue with it, and I saw her complaining coming a mile away. Helped to take the sting out.  

Regarding mindset whenever he brings up his Mom.  Stay "neutral and curious"...realize that there is little chance he is expressing something that can be taken at face value.

Your attitude is it's important to understand your husband in the way he wants you to understand his words

Makes sense. In the past, I thought truth was important so I would speak to what I was seeing. This felt like scalding water to him, so he's nervous. It'll take time for him to open up again, and a lot of this 'expressing interest in a neutral and curious way.'

[pursuingJoy]

Mod Note:  Part 2 is located here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345792.0;all

Regarding the grout.  

In person, did you ask her to show you her concern?  

Was this ever discussed further?

I didn't, and it wasn't. It felt too risky. She was in the middle of the biggest move of her life, an emotional minefield with bigger fish to fry. H was on high alert, anxious and feeling her feelings. It didn't feel like the right time to bring this to their attention. I just needed a confirmation look-see for my peace of mind.

And I'm realizing that that's the way they set things up a lot. Always a crisis, always most important, no one else's feelings ever rise to that level of priority.

(OBTW..I've done lots of tiling and been around lots of tile people and I would not understand "grout coming out")

I've seen grout chip out after years and years of use. It happened in our bathroom 10+ years after installation, probably because of an unstable subfloor. I used a sanded grout in MIL's bathroom that was fairly thick, only a few months old when she complained.

I had major doubts there was an issue with it, and I saw her complaining coming a mile away. Helped to take the sting out.  

Regarding mindset whenever he brings up his Mom.  Stay "neutral and curious"...realize that there is little chance he is expressing something that can be taken at face value.

Your attitude is it's important to understand your husband in the way he wants you to understand his words

Makes sense. In the past, I thought truth was important so I would speak to what I was seeing. This felt like scalding water to him, so he's nervous. It'll take time for him to open up again, and a lot of this 'expressing interest in a neutral and curious way.'

[formflier]

In the past, I thought truth was important so I would speak to what I was seeing. 

I've thought this way millions of times. Often to my detriment.

Now I try to "be curious about what I'm seeing"?   Let them fill in the blanks...let them deal with the questions and clarify.


Switching gears

I also wonder if "we" (or you in this particular case) need to have two different mindsets.   

One which gives lots of latitude and grace...for matters of opinion.

Another for "matters of fact" where we choose not to rescue or in any way protect disordered people from "facts"

"Grout coming out" is a factual thing.  (at least IMO)  What do you think would happen if you had asked for a pic so you could start thinking about how best to solve the issue?

Best,

FF



Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

PJ, I gotta say one more time how much I appreciate you posting here. It's validation-palooza  

Samesies! It is wild that we experience so much of the same, because our people are in completely different roles. But, lack of boundaries, am I right? Half the time, I don't know if MIL is his mom, his child, or his spouse. He seems to shift through each of those roles with her. Up until a few months ago, I realized that we were both comparing relationships to kids to the relationship with his mom. Once I caught onto what was happening, I quit drawing parallels. When he did, I'd say, where appropriate, "Um no, that's not the same at all, or shouldn't be. One is a parent, and one is a child."

Instead of SO drama, H is getting a high volume of standard somatic complaints from SD23. She needs attention but can't discuss too much SO drama because (my sense is that) there is something that doesn't add up. She doesn't want to draw too much attention to the BF for some reason.

Oh my spidey senses are tingling. Definitely something curious there. Any guesses as to what might have happened?

Can you say more about that? How did he express interest and did he see how it applied to you and MIL?

Some of his interest is just lucky timing and stars aligning. He expressed that he felt stuck between me and his mom, expected to fix it all, but powerless to do anything. I explained the Karpman triangle dynamics, how I learned that when I felt stuck and powerless, I was usually playing the role of victim. This piqued his interest. He is violently opposed to ever feeling like the victim, because in his mind he's a strong tough guy and can't be taken advantage of. Playing victim goes against his grain. It seems to click with him. In general, I think it feels good to be reminded that you have agency.

He was curious about the triangle so I went on to explain that I also see him playing the rescuer role. I've given him examples of how this plays out with his mom and where it goes wrong. He already saw this in himself with other relationships, so he seemed interested in hearing how it was also playing out with his mom.
 

You seem like a very kind and compassionate person who would not ask him to "stop talking to, visiting, or seeing your mom." I wonder if those are things that MIL has said to him. 

I wonder that too. The longer I'm married to him, the more thankful I am that I don't hear their conversations. I think I would be pretty angry.

My H has said something similar. A while ago SD23 crossed the line and H was furious with her. In anger, he said to me, "I got rid of (employer), I got rid of (ex-wife), but I'm stuck with SD23."

Which is true. He is stuck with her.

Wow that he admitted this. H would never, not with a negative connotation. He talks like he is the most blessed person to be dealing with his aging mother. I think this 'my mother, the blessed Madonna' act is in response to my perceived attacks on her. I suspect that if I lay off and take FF's suggested neutral approach, he'll eventually come back to at least a normal baseline of frustration. No one goes through caring for an aging parent without some level of frustration, to say nothing of caring for an aging BPD parent.

Did you go through a stage of grief before finding acceptance that MIL is part of being in this marriage?
 

Girl. Listen. I love this man. I do. But the levels of grief I have had to navigate...

His lack of boundaries are not just an issue with his mother. His ex, either BPD or NPD, was a major issue for the first 4 years. Zero boundaries. He was still her emotional caretaker. All of his money went to her, I was carrying the full financial burden. She felt like she could still access him when she needed him. I told him I felt like I had 60% of a husband.

An ex is one thing. No one really wants the ex around, so we had a bit of common ground to work from. An MIL is quite another. I tried so hard to let things go. I wanted to like her and make it work. I tried soo hard to get him to understand how it was hurting me, believing that he cared. (It was really hard to accept that he was not in a position to care about my hurt.) And then my grief was all tangled up with of the other stages, mostly anger and denial. It felt so messy.  

Sometimes I hear people here going through the grieving and anger stages and I just want to hug them through the monitor and say, "Hang on, I promise better days are coming. You'll wake up one day and you'll have peace and clarity you didn't think was possible. All these things that dictate your experience right now - you'll be able to let them go and live a fulfilled and happy life."

And the grief isn't over. I still have rough days. Helps to slow down and cry, and remember what I chose. If one day I'm presented with different information, I'll make a different choice. Until then, I'm choosing to be here.

That makes sense. I can see, then, why he would say that it's better to "let it go" (meaning you and MIL having a relationship) instead of trying to maneuver the boundary around visiting your home. He probably notices that the compartmentalizing is preferable to the conflict.

Absolutely. And I like to think he was recognizing his limitations, even if he couldn't verbalize that. He knows he can't/won't go toe-to-toe with her. When I see this as his choice and my role is to respect his limits, it really takes the edge off.

I'm not naive enough to think that they won't continue to blame me for everything, but it's my choice to accept or reject these notions.

What I really appreciate in your story is that the element that kind of stripped you of strength (being treated almost like a third wheel) was also a source of empowerment (you can roll out of the triangle).

Thank you for this. Wow. I never thought about the link between being stripped of power being the driving force behind rolling off the triangle, but i absolutely see it now. This is a refreshing take.

Where do you fit in the dynamic? Do you ever feel like a third wheel? Do you ever wonder how much is blended family stuff? The concept of the stepparent feeling like the 'other' is common. I absolutely feel like I'm on the outside when it's just H and his kids. Kids prefer it that way, so it takes elbowing from H and I to make space for me. My H is really good at helping me with the elbowing. It would be so hard if he didn't. Do you feel alone in the elbowing?

[pursuingJoy]

As much as I wish my mom was someone else's problem, I've learned having my H step in and help her is often not a good solution.    

I appreciate your feedback, Mata, and I found your story validating. Thank you!

In response to FF's inquiry about whether or not it's best for the spouse to stay out of the dynamic, I believe that decision depends on the people involved. In my case, H refuses/is unable to set a boundary. If I try to set boundaries during social visits, I'm attacked by her, then by him. This makes regular social interaction more risky and complicated. Less interaction means more potential for positive interactions, and less stress for all. It's the least bad option that works best for us at this time.

Mata, what would work or has worked in your situation?

[pursuingJoy]

"Grout coming out" is a factual thing.  (at least IMO)  What do you think would happen if you had asked for a pic so you could start thinking about how best to solve the issue?

I think you make a good point that applying different types of mindsets is helpful.

As far as the grout, maybe you can help me with something. Past experience, my instinct, is telling me that if I'd focused on the factual, it would have felt invalidating to H and MIL. Can someone explain why I think that? I can't figure it out.

[formflier]

 it would have felt invalidating to H and MIL. Can someone explain why I think that? I can't figure it out.

So..."feelings equals facts" is a "hallmark" of BPDish type stuff.

Generally speaking, validating feelings is important and can help smooth out the relationship.

Also consider your responses and their feelings to be a spectrum.

At some point on the spectrum it's appropriate to validate and ignore factual issues.

At another point it's appropriate to "not save them" from dealing with the "facts", even if they feel invalidate...or feel you are a monster or feel...xyz.

Our job is to help smooth things and be emotionally intelligent...our job is NOT to insulate them from the world.

Asking for better understanding (through a pic) is not you intentionally invalidating or hurting them.  If they experience the world (after being unable to find grout coming out)...let them have that experience...don't get in the way.

So..perhaps it plays out like this.  

Hubby comes to you  "blah blah blah Mom says grout coming out"

you: "Oh my...what does it look like?

him:   "dunno"

you:  "Oh...well..let's contact MIL and ask for a pic to sort out a way forward."

him:  "blah blah we can't do it because"

you:  "hmm...she doesn't want it corrected?"  (see where you refuse to get drawn into conflict...you are curious..perhaps perplexed)

him:  some nonsense answer..she is the way she is

you:  "Babe...how should we solve this?"

Anyway...eventually you either rationally solve it or you directly ask hubby why he raised the issue.

Which flows into why raise unsolvable issues?

See how you keep handing it back?

Goal...they either stop raising nonsense issues with you or they start solving stuff.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

That makes a lot of sense, FF. Thanks!

[livednlearned]

It is wild that we experience so much of the same, because our people are in completely different roles. But, lack of boundaries, am I right?

   yes. You also seem focused on relationship success, in addition to well-being for yourself. At the same time, the changes you're making are focused almost exclusively on you, and what you are responsible for.

That's not an easy gambit.

Half the time, I don't know if MIL is his mom, his child, or his spouse. He seems to shift through each of those roles with her.

Does he ever get angry at her? Even if he doesn't express it outright, he must, no? Where does H's frustration and hurt go? I have to assume that when there isn't a third person in the triangle with them, then her ire or disappointment must be directed at him?

Definitely something curious there. Any guesses as to what might have happened?

The makings of a Jerry Springer episode  

He is violently opposed to ever feeling like the victim, because in his mind he's a strong tough guy and can't be taken advantage of

Interesting. My H is like that too.

The longer I'm married to him, the more thankful I am that I don't hear their conversations. I think I would be pretty angry.

Does your H have a strong moral code? If he does, my guess is that he doesn't let her trash talk you. It sounds like his mom has to undermine you in clever ways, maybe because he doesn't indulge her in demeaning you?

My SD23 saved her worst talk for conversations with BPD mom. I overheard them Facetiming and came across DM messages between them (about me) on a shared computer. It made me sick to my stomach at the time but in retrospect, I'm grateful because it put a lot of things in perspective. SD23 is my first experience with waif BPD and I missed a lot of things because of that. Her conversations with BPD mom were an eye opener and tipped me off that the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

He talks like he is the most blessed person to be dealing with his aging mother. I think this 'my mother, the blessed Madonna' act is in response to my perceived attacks on her. I suspect that if I lay off and take FF's suggested neutral approach, he'll eventually come back to at least a normal baseline of frustration

That's kinda what I did with me and H. We were in neutral for a while and then had a relatively successful SD23 visit before we moved. I think he felt both supported by me and grateful that SD23's worst instincts were thwarted. He commented that SD23 was becoming more mature, which is a funny thing to say about a woman who sends poop emojis to her dad when she's on the toilet  

I think what he noticed but didn't understand is that my boundaries were locked down so SD23's behaviors were contained. I was also rolling my wheel in and out when I felt like it.

Maybe when I'm completely out of the triangle, he feels like he's alone in this, but when I'm too far in he gets too much of SD23. If I am both in and out without things getting worse, he can manage better? I don't know. He seems to want me to be around when she's visiting, while understanding the boundaries I have asserted. He knows she's a lot even when it comes to socializing.

I love this man. I do. But the levels of grief I have had to navigate...

Sigh. We woulda made good grief buddies. At this point, I'm kind of through the big grief, myself. H and I both have ex partners with a PD, as well as siblings who are pretty disordered. I suspect my dad is the golden child of a BPD waif and H's parents have traits, too. It's a lot of dysfunction over multiple generations and I thought we were battling this stuff together.

It was a gut punch to discover that the love of my life not only had a daughter with BPD, but he wouldn't even entertain the idea she might be. He will agree yes, this thing is grey, it's enormous, it has four legs, it has a trunk and tusks and a good memory, but suggest that it's an elephant? No. Inside my head I was like, How can you have lived among all these elephants and not see that SD23 is one?

I tried to deal with my grief by getting him to see she was an elephant. Nope.

I had to grieve alone and sort this puzzle out alone while staying connected to him.  

Where do you fit in the dynamic? Do you ever feel like a third wheel? Do you ever wonder how much is blended family stuff?

To me, third wheel is the icky feeling that someone is in a spousal role with my spouse, competing with me over something that is singular and sacred.

Blended family stuff honestly seems like a cake walk in comparison.

I have an excellent relationship with my older step daughter (SD26) and a surprisingly good relationship with her brother (SS21). I was step mom in my prior marriage (my son's half brother). I never found any of them napping on my side of the bed, they didn't come into my bedroom or bathroom while I was in it. They didn't try to sit on H's lap or try to hug him while he had his arms around me. They seem grateful that I have social instincts about when to spend time together and when to give them space. The family kind of turns to me for guidance when it comes to that stuff, second-guessing H at times. I've even spent holidays with the kids and H's ex MIL and her husband.

These complex family gatherings are surprisingly easy and other than a few hiccups early in our marriage, I am given a lot of respect and say in how we function as a blended family.

In the beginning with SD23 I could tell she needed special care and out of compassion for that, I was extra careful. That's part of the lesson I learned. Compassion without boundaries is how I ended up becoming a third wheel. It's taken years and a lot of learning to figure out where things went over the ledge.

[GaGrl]

Everyone knew my H's ex was "crazy," but no one had a name for it til H and I married. My cousin ( Masters level sociology and psychology) and I were pretty open in speaking about those in our extended family with personality disorders. At least for those on the receiving end, naming it is good.

But I had no idea of the dysfunction I was wading into -- ex, husband with uCPTSD, golden child son, black sheep daughter, adopted (foreign) daughter who left at age 18 with minimal education and coping skills. It had been so long since the family had any semblance of "normal," they couldn't have described it if they had to.

And I shook it up, by being in love and by being me.

I went through denial pretty quickly, then stayed in anger a long, long time. Conflict with the ex was high for 8-9 months. Somewhere along there I really "got" boundaries and the Triangle and managed to extricate from most of the conflict.

I do believe I have modeled boundaries and assertiveness for all of my step-children. I can talk with them pretty bluntly about what the line is -- usually around what I will or won't allow re: their mother's behavior. She still ticks me off.

Every day with my H is worth what it took to get here. But I had no idea what I was wading into, until I was already up to my knees in muck.

[pursuingJoy]

And I shook it up, by being in love and by being me.

I found this super validating, GaGrl. I don't have time for a full response now, but just want you and livednlearned to know that particular phrases you share send chills down my arm and make me tear up. I'm so, so thankful that you're here, that I get to talk to you, and that you're willing to share your story. THANK YOU.

[GaGrl]

I found this super validating, GaGrl. I don't have time for a full response now, but just want you and livednlearned to know that particular phrases you share send chills down my arm and make me tear up. I'm so, so thankful that you're here, that I get to talk to you, and that you're willing to share your story. THANK YOU.

Isn't it the BEST when a phrase sums up an experience that resonates with others?

The "by being me" part of it speaks to our genuine nature, to a level of knowing ourselves, of health and stability that we could not relinquish in the midst of the functionality in which we found ourselves.

Although the experience showed me where I could be better, and I learned from it.

[livednlearned]

The "by being me" part of it speaks to our genuine nature, to a level of knowing ourselves, of health and stability that we could not relinquish in the midst of the functionality in which we found ourselves.

This comes through very vividly and strongly in your posts, GaGrl. I can get drawn into a whirlpool of explanation of my own making whereas you seem to demonstrate boundaries powerfully and simply in how your phrase your responses.

I've learned a lot from you 

I'm learning so much from this thread, too 

[GaGrl]

This is an excellent thread!

[pursuingJoy]

At the same time, the changes you're making are focused almost exclusively on you, and what you are responsible for.

lnl, you're doing the same. I'm borrowing your strength these days. It makes such a difference to know someone else gets it. I have to say very little. Sometimes you describe it for me.

Does he ever get angry at her?

No. Never angry. He has admitted that she's hurt his feelings, but he may or may not tell her about it.

Even if he doesn't express it outright, he must, no? Where does H's frustration and hurt go?

Oh he gets frustrated and dumps it on kids, more rarely at me. Sometimes he'll become unreasonably angry about something random, something political or at work. To be honest, I worry about this. I think it's why he drinks.

I have to assume that when there isn't a third person in the triangle with them, then her ire or disappointment must be directed at him?
 

Huh. Having an aha moment. You are 100% correct, and this upsets their weird dynamic, which is why they are perpetually seeking a third party to scapegoat. Most recently they're both angry at his 27 year old daughter who lived with MIL for a few weeks between apartments. D27 had the nerve not to call MIL when she was going to be home late and now she's "rude, self-absorbed, and inconsiderate."

The makings of a Jerry Springer episode  

HA! Keep me posted my curiosity about the r/s is piqued.

Does your H have a strong moral code?

Yes, and a very specific one. Respect for authority is probably his #1 value. Same with yours? How do your H's values play out?

If he does, my guess is that he doesn't let her trash talk you. It sounds like his mom has to undermine you in clever ways, maybe because he doesn't indulge her in demeaning you?

Had not considered this. I don't know their conversations, so I can't say for sure. Based on what I've seen and know of him, it is probable that he hears her out, then doesn't say anything, or changes the subject, or reassures her her that I really love hanging out with her, but am insecure and screwed up because of my family. I could be wrong, just going off of the clues I have.

My SD23 saved her worst talk for conversations with BPD mom. I overheard them Facetiming and came across DM messages between them (about me) on a shared computer. It made me sick to my stomach at the time but in retrospect, I'm grateful because it put a lot of things in perspective. SD23 is my first experience with waif BPD and I missed a lot of things because of that. Her conversations with BPD mom were an eye opener and tipped me off that the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

Yikes. Kind of a mixed blessing but yeah, that would have been hard at first. Did H know about this? How did he feel? Was D23 ever confronted, or did you chalk this up to an experience best left to consider as informational?

That's kinda what I did with me and H. We were in neutral for a while and then had a relatively successful SD23 visit before we moved. I think he felt both supported by me and grateful that SD23's worst instincts were thwarted.

Boundaries work! Does H appreciate that?

He commented that SD23 was becoming more mature, which is a funny thing to say about a woman who sends poop emojis to her dad when she's on the toilet  

Ummmm... Lol

Maybe when I'm completely out of the triangle, he feels like he's alone in this, but when I'm too far in he gets too much of SD23. If I am both in and out without things getting worse, he can manage better? I don't know. He seems to want me to be around when she's visiting, while understanding the boundaries I have asserted. He knows she's a lot even when it comes to socializing.

What do you think it is about pwBPD that is so draining in social settings, especially one on one?

Sigh. We woulda made good grief buddies.

Right?   Wish I'd been around for you a little earlier, and you for me. Still 100% worth it to talk through now.

It's a lot of dysfunction over multiple generations and I thought we were battling this stuff together.

I had to grieve alone and sort this puzzle out alone while staying connected to him.  

The grieving alone while trying to stay connected gave me chills when I read it. It was hands down the hardest part. There were moments I was so overwhelmed with all of the sadness, I questioned whether it was worth staying.

It was a gut punch to discover that the love of my life not only had a daughter with BPD, but he wouldn't even entertain the idea she might be. He will agree yes, this thing is grey, it's enormous, it has four legs, it has a trunk and tusks and a good memory, but suggest that it's an elephant? No. Inside my head I was like, How can you have lived among all these elephants and not see that SD23 is one?

I had a hard time not laughing - you're funny, the situation is not funny. But we laugh so we don't cry, right? Do you think on some level that he knows? Deep, deep down? He just can't say it out loud?

To me, third wheel is the icky feeling that someone is in a spousal role with my spouse, competing with me over something that is singular and sacred.

I motion that this be the formal definition of third wheeling henceforth. All in favor...seriously. When I tried to explain to people, I'd get the, "Are you sure...? Maybe not...? You're too sensitive...? She didn't mean...?" I had to reach a point where I stopped looking for outside affirmation, and just settled inside of me that how I felt, was enough reason. Period.

Blended family stuff honestly seems like a cake walk in comparison.

I do agree that blended family stuff is way more straightforward than dealing with BPD. I haven't had the successes you've had, we are still sorting through a LOT of dashed expectations and hurt feelings, mostly between my kids and H. But blended family stuff did not level my marriage the way his mom/BPD did.

I never found any of them napping on my side of the bed, they didn't come into my bedroom or bathroom while I was in it. They didn't try to sit on H's lap or try to hug him while he had his arms around me.

Ummm yeah no...this is not ok. Wow.

I am given a lot of respect and say in how we function as a blended family.

Yes MA'AM I love it. This is awesome. They're lucky to have you as a part of the family.

Compassion without boundaries is how I ended up becoming a third wheel. It's taken years and a lot of learning to figure out where things went over the ledge.

I can so relate, you nailed it. Before I met MIL, I heard over and over about her suffering having lost her son to suicide and husband unexpectedly after minor health issues. My empathy pumps were fully prepped and primed by the time we met. Looking back, I think that was instinctively intentional on H's part. It's how he paves the way for her behavior.

The 'off' moments started from the beginning. Sometimes I let it go and chalked it up to annoying aging parent. Sometimes, even at the beginning, I set boundaries I felt were appropriate and I naively assumed it was dealt with because she didn't repeat the same behavior.

Only it wasn't dealt with, because this is a personality disorder. Her technique is to feel you out, find the cracks, and shift her tactics. She undermined, little by little, year after year. I had no idea how enmeshed my husband was. I listened to and respected his many explanations, even though my gut was telling me something was off.

But last year's confrontation was a wake up call we all needed. The waify act cracked, and I thank God for that. In fairness to them, I know it was a jolt to the family system when I set hard and fast boundaries last year. They were genuinely confused about what they perceived as a change of heart, I guess? To date, they don't get it, but they've started to accept it. I had to step back and give them time to grieve the loss of a soft landing.

[pursuingJoy]

It had been so long since the family had any semblance of "normal," they couldn't have described it if they had to.

This is very insightful. My H was definitely in a season of long term turmoil when I met him. His tolerance for upset was wayyyy too high.

And I shook it up, by being in love and by being me.

I need this to be a song lyric. absolutely perfect.

I do believe I have modeled boundaries and assertiveness for all of my step-children.

I hope I can do this for my stepkids. Their mom is like my MIL. Thankfully, H has been more receptive to feedback about his ex because he's emotionally separated from her. He's been able to set better boundaries with the ex, but because he hasn't dealt with his mother-enmeshment, he doesn't see where his ex is hurting his kids. It hurts to watch. I have to walk a fine line between making observations, then letting go of the outcome because my advice wasn't requested.

Every day with my H is worth what it took to get here. But I had no idea what I was wading into, until I was already up to my knees in muck.

So good to hear from someone on the other side.  My H has many redeeming qualities. I don't talk about them here because I'm usually hurting, but he really is a very loving, fun, and hard working person. In good moments he is validating and affirming and responsive if I need something.

I think the most profound marriage advice I ever got was, " Marriage is hard because people change." I think it's about learning when to protect your needs and when to shift for the greater good. An extreme of either won't work.

[Mata]

Mata, what would work or has worked in your situation?

For things that I would have wanted to delegate to H in the past (so I didn't have to directly deal with my mom), I now decide whether it is something I'm personally willing to do or not.  We've been married for 19 years, so our default at this point is to do things as a team.  But when dealing with my mom, I've come to think of myself as single. I think 'what do I want to do, what can I handle?'  If I decide to do something, then I like to run it by H.  (This is an approach we mutually agreed to.)  He's a much more emotionally healthy person than me, and many things seem easy for him to figure out, so I like to use him as a sounding board, or to double check myself.  Sometimes he'll shrug, and say "that seems reasonable."  Other times, he'll tell me it doesn't seem healthy, but says "whatever you feel you need to do though."  Also, I ask him to help me in a more direct way now.  It used to be 'help me by doing this thing for my mom, because it will make my life easier."  Now, its more 'I'm exhausted from dealing with my mom, can we talk about it, or can you help me make a plan for what I could try next time.'  I think this has been working better for us because it still allows him to be a helper (his natural instinct) without pulling him into the triangle with my mom. 

[pursuingJoy]

Mata, this is absolute genius. Thanks for sharing!

[livednlearned]

they are perpetually seeking a third party to scapegoat.

Interesting to think about this.

This is an interesting way to understand SD23's relationship drama and the recent break-up with BF, something I hadn't thought of until you phrased it like this.
 

Keep me posted my curiosity about the r/s is piqued

If I think of the drama in terms of triangles, SD23 was amplifying beefs with BF to get sympathy and attention from H and BPD mom. BF is captain of the scapegoats so he's in play constantly.

My theory is that two different parents dealing with SD23's triangulation in two different ways led to two completely different stories with BF scapegoating at the center.

H engages SD23's triangulations with (name your scapegoat), no matter how petty or small or meaningless the scapegoat's actions might seem. On BPDFamily, it's described as validating the invalid. Imo H does this because he believes it keeps SD23's drama to a manageable low boil that he finds tolerable. Validating SD23 beefs with scapegoats is his way to tune her out while still technically being present.

H provided constant supply of attention so he got low-level BF triangulation: BF plays too many video games. BF doesn't respond to texts immediately. BF lost the key to her car.

Whereas BPD mom is erratic and unreliable. SD23 has to tap dance harder and faster to get BPD mom's attention and she never knows how mom might respond, if at all. Last December, SD23's needs were on tilt. She was getting acceptable amounts of attention from H, but not from mom, who had instructed the siblings to ignore SD23 because of the code red level daily texts. A recipe for some top-shelf attention seeking.

BPD mom ignored SD23 so she got high-level BF triangulation: BF pushed me.

Next thing we know, mom had driven to SD23's apartment to kick BF out.

H didn't know why and didn't press for details, he was just told that SD23 was at mom's without her car, and she broke up with BF.

SD23 seemed to know that BPD mom and H would not compare notes, and that he wouldn't ask too many questions.  

Interestingly, BPD mom then became scapegoat in the "H saves SD23 from BPD mom" triangle.

Between you and me and the Internet, this part sets my hair on fire. H's need to save SD23 is not grounded in facts for a guy who seems to really prize facts. Even just for the sake of following a story I had some minor questions that H wasn't comfortable asking ... that's what happens when you're walking on egg shells  

(Also, my sincere concern is that H is inadvertently enabling SD23 to engage in future false allegations. She has a history that includes the stirrings of this behavior, going back to high school when she alleged a teacher touched her inappropriately, something she later retracted.)

BF was secretly moved back in a few months later. SD23 eventually told H and SD26, but not BPD mom, who, when she discovered it, seemed (inexplicably) un-phased. At least, this was according to H.

Pass-the-scapegoat changed when BPD mom increased SD23 attention and shortly after, BF was restored as scapegoat.

Next, he was kicked out again.

I suspect these triangles will continue to shift like this is because there is no reality in which SD23 willingly lives alone. The BF triangle is rather magnificent because it's a constant source of conflict that keeps a couple sets of triangles going at once:

BPD saving SD23 from BF
H saving SD23 from BF

Right now, SD23 is working on a new triangle. BF moved into an apartment with a mutual acquaintance who is advocating for BF's reinstatement. This is fascinating stuff, because SD23 seems to be casting herself as the victim of a bully who is going to successfully force BF back in the apartment. Cue intermission.

Same with yours? How do your H's values play out?

If you've ever read Understanding the Borderline Mother, H is the Huntsman.

"The Huntsman's sense of self is ruled by strict codes of behavior, such as a strong work ethic, honesty, loyalty, or religious doctrine...Others admire him for his outstanding performance, dedication, and integrity...The Huntsman compensates for feelings of inadequacy by hard work, outstanding performance, dedication, and dependability. The Huntsman is humble, even if professionally successful. He does not seek adulation or fame. He gives credit to others, prefers to be anonymous...He represses and disavows his own emotions; thus, he does not perceive his own happiness to be important...he is ruled by his conscience, which prevents him from violating principles of loyalty and fidelity...he defines his self-worth in terms of the degree to which his behavior is congruent with his principles."

That's H to a tee.

What do you think it is about pwBPD that is so draining in social settings, especially one on one?

A staggering desire to get insatiable needs met by others.

Do you think on some level that he knows? Deep, deep down? He just can't say it out loud?

He knows.

My empathy pumps were fully prepped and primed by the time we met. Looking back, I think that was instinctively intentional on H's part. It's how he paves the way for her behavior.

He sounds so much like H.

Did H know about this? How did he feel? Was D23 ever confronted, or did you chalk this up to an experience best left to consider as informational?

I did let H know that I had read messages between SD23 and BPD mom. First I had to work through the guilt of discovering the messages and then continuing to read them   Eventually the dam broke and I told him everything I did and read.

He was almost as curious to know what I discovered as I was. And it was an important turning point in our relationship because I didn't go ballistic, handled it confidentially, and used the info to improve things in my relationship with SD23 instead of attack her. I don't think he knew that information was going to end up in my strengthened boundaries but he knew it was getting used to decrease conflict in our marriage and that was important to him. Probably the part that was most challenging for him, tho not a surprise, is the degree to which SD23 was informing on him to BPD mom. If I could guess the end result of discovering that this goes on, I would say that H lowered his loyalty to SD23 a notch, didn't feel so bad about moving 3000 miles away, and doesn't engage in "H saves SD23 from BPD mom" as much. When it does happen, there is an unspoken acknowledgement from me that SD23 is just as likely to throw H under the bus with BPD mom as vice versa.

when dealing with my mom, I've come to think of myself as single

This is so affirming, Mata.

I see H doing a version of this in how he manages his relationship with SD23. He's flying solo 98 percent of the time now. When I am enlisted, I know he feels vulnerable and is struggling. It's hard to watch because I would love to support him. I've had to learn that when it comes to SD23, I have to put myself first at the expense of others rather than vice versa. It hurts to see H be collateral damage.

[formflier]

Wow...I knew there was drama with SD23..but...wow. 

Best,

FF

[Mata]

 Even just for the sake of following a story I had some minor questions that H wasn't comfortable asking ... that's what happens when you're walking on egg shells  

Your observation on this point is a light bulb moment for me!  I do not naturally ask people questions as they tell me something, it has always felt uncomfortable.  I have to make a conscious effort to do it, and even then I get an uneasy feeling.  I've always thought I must not be an inquisitive person.  But that has never seemed quite right to me, I love to learn new things and a big part of my job involves doing research. 

It never occurred to me that growing up walking on egg shells around my BPDmom probably hard-wired this avoidant behavior into me.  I never wanted to question her on anything, so as not to set her off.  Sometimes I just didn't want to know more...I still do that to this day.  I mostly take her statements at face value and ask as few questions as possible, because honestly trying to dig deeper rarely clarifies anything and leads to her lying or getting upset.  So If asking questions = drama & disregulation, then that would explain my ill-ease in naturally asking questions now. 

Great food for thought, thank you!       

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

Good resource to use when trying to figure out what questions are ok to ask.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I never wanted to question her on anything, so as not to set her off.  Sometimes I just didn't want to know more...I still do that to this day.  I mostly take her statements at face value and ask as few questions as possible, because honestly trying to dig deeper rarely clarifies anything and leads to her lying or getting upset.  So If asking questions = drama & disregulation, then that would explain my ill-ease in naturally asking questions now.

I'm glad you recognize that you are curious and inquisitive, and that you have a part of your life where this is reflected back to you. It says a lot about your internal strength 

Knowing to not ask questions was likely a masterful and effective survival skill, and I imagine it also protected you from going along with her fabrications. That had to be an essential form of self-preservation.

I sense pretty intense red zone feelings from H when I feel puzzled about a SD23 story and want to clarify. The only way I can make sense of her is through the prism of BPD, and then things become remarkably clear.

Huh. Your insight makes me wonder if the reason why H compartmentalizes his relationship with SD23 is in part because I ask questions and that makes him uncomfortable.

Also, that link FF shared was a life-changer for me. Asking validating questions might be the single-most important skill I've picked up from friends on these boards.

[pursuingJoy]

It used to be 'help me by doing this thing for my mom, because it will make my life easier."  

Now, its more 'I'm exhausted from dealing with my mom, can we talk about it, or can you help me make a plan for what I could try next time.'  

Mata, I've been thinking a lot about the difference between these two statements. Positioning them side by side resonated with me. H used the first statement. Over time, I resisted or offered alternatives, which resulted in him shutting me out of their relationship completely.

Why didn't I see the signs? It seems so obvious now. MIL was clingy and a part of our relationship from the beginning. Before we married, the three of us talked about buying a house together. She was a little quirky, but H seemed supportive when I set really small boundaries, so I assumed we were on the same page. Her behavior got worse, I became the target, and he got smaller and smaller.

In fairness to him, he must feel so disappointed that he didn't get the support out of this deal that he thought he was going to get.

I sense pretty intense red zone feelings from H when I feel puzzled about a SD23 story and want to clarify.

Your insight makes me wonder if the reason why H compartmentalizes his relationship with SD23 is in part because I ask questions and that makes him uncomfortable.

I'm glad Mata brought this up. We also share this dynamic of fearing questions, and not just my questions, but my judgment. It feels so counter intuitive, but I've had to check my judgment and simply let them relate the way they insist on relating. Their relating has consequences of its own that will play out, and just letting it happen is an effective way of stepping off the triangle.

To show that I care, I ask how he felt. (Great link FF!) He is genuinely confused that I ask, and can't always answer, but it's been an effective shift for us.

lnl, your story had my blood pressure up also, you painted a fabulous picture. I felt like I was in a soap opera.

BF is captain of the scapegoats so he's in play constantly.

This doesn't sound sustainable.  

H engages SD23's triangulations with (name your scapegoat), no matter how petty or small or meaningless the scapegoat's actions might seem. On BPDFamily, it's described as validating the invalid. Imo H does this because he believes it keeps SD23's drama to a manageable low boil that he finds tolerable. Validating SD23 beefs with scapegoats is his way to tune her out while still technically being present.

Ooohhhhhh wow this was a lightbulb. I've seen this play out time and time again. I mean, props to them for learning ways to manage high conflict in the moment, but by validating the invalid, they're perpetuating a cycle. They're affirming the pwBPD's fears, sending the message, "Yes, you do need to act like this to get your needs met." Sometimes I want to shake H and say, "There's a more loving way to do this!"

H provided constant supply of attention so he got low-level BF triangulation: BF plays too many video games. BF doesn't respond to texts immediately. BF lost the key to her car.

So, what's the alternative? How would you like to see your H respond to these micro entanglements?

Whereas BPD mom is erratic and unreliable. SD23 has to tap dance harder and faster to get BPD mom's attention and she never knows how mom might respond, if at all. Last December, SD23's needs were on tilt. She was getting acceptable amounts of attention from H, but not from mom, who had instructed the siblings to ignore SD23 because of the code red level daily texts. A recipe for some top-shelf attention seeking.

BPD mom ignored SD23 so she got high-level BF triangulation: BF pushed me.

Next thing we know, mom had driven to SD23's apartment to kick BF out.

Oh wow that escalated quickly.

Interestingly, BPD mom then became scapegoat in the "H saves SD23 from BPD mom" triangle.

Between you and me and the Internet, this part sets my hair on fire.

Oh SD23 is good. Master level triangulation.  

BF was secretly moved back in a few months later. SD23 eventually told H and SD26, but not BPD mom, who, when she discovered it, seemed (inexplicably) un-phased. At least, this was according to H.

And they don't see what's going on?

Pass-the-scapegoat changed when BPD mom increased SD23 attention and shortly after, BF was restored as scapegoat.

My head's spinning.  

Next, he was kicked out again.

when does it stopppp?

Right now, SD23 is working on a new triangle. BF moved into an apartment with a mutual acquaintance who is advocating for BF's reinstatement. This is fascinating stuff, because SD23 seems to be casting herself as the victim of a bully who is going to successfully force BF back in the apartment. Cue intermission.

I feel like I've run a marathon.

I suspect these triangles will continue to shift like this is because there is no reality in which SD23 willingly lives alone.

This was triggering. The expectation from the get-go is that MIL would move in with us. She told me once that even if her son died before she did, I wasn't allowed to kick her out and I'd still have to take care of her. That always struck me as odd.

Her moving in has not been an option for 4 years. No matter how many times I've clarified this, I get the distinct impression that they're both ignoring me. At one point, I was researching what legal rights I had to evict her from my home, should they move her in without my consent. My logical brain now tells me that this is not as much of a danger as it used to be, but I also know from experience that all it would take is a catastrophic fall and he'd be packing her up to move in. I don't know what level of NOPE I have to communicate.
 

"The Huntsman's sense of self is ruled by strict codes of behavior, such as a strong work ethic, honesty, loyalty, or religious doctrine...Others admire him for his outstanding performance, dedication, and integrity...The Huntsman compensates for feelings of inadequacy by hard work, outstanding performance, dedication, and dependability. The Huntsman is humble, even if professionally successful. He does not seek adulation or fame. He gives credit to others, prefers to be anonymous...He represses and disavows his own emotions; thus, he does not perceive his own happiness to be important...he is ruled by his conscience, which prevents him from violating principles of loyalty and fidelity...he defines his self-worth in terms of the degree to which his behavior is congruent with his principles."

How do you know my H? Wow. So does that mean that your H was raised by a waif/hermit BPD? How did he come by these characteristics?

I often wonder why H chose me. I mean, I get it - I think we're wounded in ways that the other understands. H's ex-wife is either BPD or more likely, NPD. H hasn't addressed the damage done by his upbringing, or faced all of the dysfunction from his previous marriage...so...why me?

He was almost as curious to know what I discovered as I was.

How interesting. He didn't justify her behavior or try to explain it?

Probably the part that was most challenging for him, tho not a surprise, is the degree to which SD23 was informing on him to BPD mom.

How did this realization, that he seemed to care about how she was painting him, make you feel?

I was hurt for a long time that when I shared that I found MIL's behavior hurtful or offensive, he'd dismiss it, saying his mom was a great mom and didn't have "a mean bone in her body." I'm still trying to sort through what part of his dismissal was normal, because we're selfish creatures, and what part was conditioning.

He will not budge on the blessed madonna act. His mother is perfect and has done no wrong but he will admit that he didn't have good boundaries with her. The counselor tried to address this with him, reminding him that all three parties have responsibility in the relationship. He would nod his head in agreement, but when it came to accepting what his mom's role was, he'd get defensive again. 

He's flying solo 98 percent of the time now.

Same here. This is validating. I hate that it came to this. I know I did the right thing but I have felt a good measure of sadness and guilt for doing what probably feels to H like abandonment.

[Mata]

Knowing to not ask questions was likely a masterful and effective survival skill, and I imagine it also protected you from going along with her fabrications. That had to be an essential form of self-preservation.

I agree, now I just need to learn some new skills.   

Also, that link FF shared was a life-changer for me. Asking validating questions might be the single-most important skill I've picked up from friends on these boards.

I've been trying to use validating questions more.  Recently, my mom started talking about moving out of her assisted senior community and into an apartment.  I tried the asking questions approach, rather than telling her what I thought she should do, or just going along with it.  And it seemed to work, she basically dropped the issue with no drama, so far.  It felt awkward, and I don't think I'd do well on the spot.  But hopefully with more practice, it will be easier. 

[Mata]

Quote from: livednlearned on August 21, 2020, 09:57:31 AM
"The Huntsman's sense of self is ruled by strict codes of behavior, such as a strong work ethic, honesty, loyalty, or religious doctrine...Others admire him for his outstanding performance, dedication, and integrity...The Huntsman compensates for feelings of inadequacy by hard work, outstanding performance, dedication, and dependability. The Huntsman is humble, even if professionally successful. He does not seek adulation or fame. He gives credit to others, prefers to be anonymous...He represses and disavows his own emotions; thus, he does not perceive his own happiness to be important...he is ruled by his conscience, which prevents him from violating principles of loyalty and fidelity...he defines his self-worth in terms of the degree to which his behavior is congruent with his principles."

How do you know my H?  Wow. So does that mean that your H was raised by a waif/hermit BPD? How did he come by these characteristics?

This totally describes me too.  My mom is definitely a waif/hermit.  

[pursuingJoy]

Recently, my mom started talking about moving out of her assisted senior community and into an apartment.  I tried the asking questions approach, rather than telling her what I thought she should do, or just going along with it.  And it seemed to work, she basically dropped the issue with no drama, so far. 

Mata, this was a success! So glad it works for you! Asking questions is a way to put the ball (and the responsibility for choosing) back in their court. I also believe it can be empowering to choose for yourself, even though it's scary for BPD's.

MIL won't choose because she does not want the responsibility if something goes wrong, and she can stockpile attention-seeking fuel (scapegoating me) to use when she needs it.

She asked us to retile her bathroom. She kept telling me, "Just pick something." I refused, took H shopping with us as a witness, and I kept asking questions, getting specific about color, feel, price range. She became waifier as the day went on, but she finally made a choice.

[pursuingJoy]

In regards to H's upcoming beach trip with MIL...

He initially invited me. I said I wasn't sure I wanted to spend several days with her and I countered that he should take his kids with him and his mom to the beach, and I would plan to do something fun with my girls at the same time. Win for all. He was all for it.

Background: MIL doesn't get much out of her grandkids. She's not mean to them, they just don't serve to meet her needs. She seems indifferent, sometimes avoidant.

This am he let me know they got a place at the beach Sept 22-25. "Kids have school so they can't go." Per our conversation here about asking uncomfortable questions, I asked if he'd scheduled the trip that way because he didn't want to take the kids. He said his mom came up with the dates, that's when her sister's condo was available, he was just going along with it. I (in keeping with my new goal of suspending judgment) simply said, "Gotcha, that makes sense."

Taking a 3-day beach trip alone with your mom feels like one of those spousal things. I asked a few questions and he said his mom's cousin is also going, which kind of helps. He invited me for a second time and I said I'd consider it, depending on work.

It seems like when he and I do something, MIL wants the same OR he feels compelled to offer MIL the same. About 6 weeks ago, we took the kids to the beach for a day trip. The week after, he started talking about taking MIL to the beach because she deserved it.

Two weeks ago, he found a new park he'd never been to and the two of us planned a day trip to discover a new place together. On the way up, I asked if he'd ever been there (not sure why I asked, he'd already told me he hadn't). I was surprised when he said yes, his mom told him the day before that she had taken him there when he was small. He kept saying he didn't remember anything about it.

She's not really capable of supporting us in our independent relationship, nor celebrating anything we have or discover as a couple. Everything ties back to her, how she feels about what we're doing, and how she can get the same feeling we have. I guess? What am I missing?

I don't get upset about this anymore, but it still feels a little yucky. It feels like nothing is sacred.

[livednlearned]

In fairness to him, he must feel so disappointed that he didn't get the support out of this deal that he thought he was going to get.

Was it really fair, though, if he was expecting that of you? He seems to know from past experience that his mom is a handful.

Their relating has consequences of its own that will play out, and just letting it happen is an effective way of stepping off the triangle

This got me thinking. It's a fact that these relationships predate us. I'm wondering what the effect of validating this might (or does) have on MIL and her behaviors?

For SD23, I sense undercurrents of: Don't divide my dad's attention. And don't upset this dynamic (scheme?) I have going. Maybe inadvertently we validate this by stepping out of the triangle? Perhaps when MIL insists on spending time together as MIL/PJ/H it's a known source of conflict that effectively triangulates H. Why else would someone who perceives you as a threat want to spend casual time with you?

How would you like to see your H respond to these micro entanglements?

That's a great question.

I've been focusing so much on how I respond to these micro entanglements  

His response to micro entanglements is a mixed bag. No surprise there I guess. He does punt to SD23's therapist when she starts to really wind up, "What does your T suggest you do when you feel like this?" And he will start conversations with, "Hi SD23, I have 5 min to talk and then I have to go do xyz." Which she then tries to ignore but it's harder to do that in a waify way when he has stated his need upfront.

He has also gotten better at recognizing that SD23 shops around for attention, so if he doesn't answer right away he gambles that she will get support somewhere else. I'm grateful to my oldest stepdaughter for this because she's the liaison between the other side of the family. It's through her that we learned SD23 has pushed people over the ledge with compulsive texting. Until that happened, H didn't know SD23 was seeking support elsewhere. It used to be he felt he was her only rescuer, so he would drop everything, including physical intimacy with me, in order to tend her calls. I think the waif part of her recognizes that he loves to rescue so she provides that service   and they will probably always have that dynamic to some degree.

they don't see what's going on?

No? I guess?

I was there during the precise moment when the triangle shifted from "BPD mom saved SD23 from BF" to "H saved SD23 from BPD mom."

After BF was moved back in, SD23 let slip to grandma that BF was living with her again. SD23 said to H, "Grandma might tell BPD mom that he's living with me again and I'm worried about that." And H said, "You're an adult and you can live with whoever you want. Mom and step dad over-reacted." SD23's face lit up. "Mom and step dad did over react!"

After, I said to H, "What if SD23 gave them reason to be concerned about her safety?"

My intention was to point out that SD23 never seems to take responsibility for things. She is always the victim. I wish he would've asked, "How come mom and step dad responded like that?"

I guess I mention this because recognizing SD23's triangulation means not validating the invalid, and that is so embedded in H's relationship with her. He would have to have a major aha moment in which he could see his own complicity.

All I can hope is that my approach encourages H to take responsibility for what he says and does. One time he complained about SD23's texts and I say some version of, "How would she know it bothers you? There is a lot of positive reinforcement for texting often."

At one point, I was researching what legal rights I had to evict her from my home, should they move her in without my consent.

Oh wow. It's amazing the forces we mount against someone who can be described as a waif.

I also know from experience that all it would take is a catastrophic fall and he'd be packing her up to move in

Oooh. Good that you recognize this is a possibility. What are some preemptive measures that might help you avoid this scenario? I admit to heroic level pre-planning when it comes to SD23. She's a teacher with summers off. I am bracing for the request to come stay with us for months every year if there's no careful pre-planning. My dream is to have a house that is comfortable for friends to come stay, but I know it will become SD23's summer residence. Yesterday we went to see a potential home for purchase and I nixed it for that reason.  
 

So does that mean that your H was raised by a waif/hermit BPD? How did he come by these characteristics?

His mom passed soon after I met him so I didn't get to know her. Both his parents were pretty high-conflict and his dad seems to have remarried someone who seems waif-like to me. H was split black when he moved away for a job and that seems to have landed him in the scapegoat doghouse. His mom said some pretty awful things to him throughout his life that he kind of shrugs off but to me they are chilling to hear.

H hasn't addressed the damage done by his upbringing, or faced all of the dysfunction from his previous marriage...so...why me?

I wonder about this, too. Maybe your H was ready for growth he knew you represented.

H learned I was asserting boundaries while remaining emotionally regulated (over high-conflict issues with my disordered ex) and my hunch is he wanted that in his own life because it was missing in his. Plus, he was a few months past SD23's psychotic breaks when we met and he felt my presence was soothing. I could identify with the pandemonium he'd experienced in his life without adding to it or judging it.

How interesting. He didn't justify her behavior or try to explain it?

Only in passing. He seemed to view it as something BPD mom made SD23 do. SD23 is the victim, always. Victim = saint.

How did this realization, that he seemed to care about how she was painting him, make you feel?

That he was being smeared by saint SD23?

Honestly?

Satisfied. Because it was a peek under the waif wrapping paper. That happens to be what I see all the time. I guess it was validating.

One of the things I'm trying to understand in myself is where my compassion or empathy lies when it comes to SD23. Do you experience that with MIL?

I'm finding myself teeter between compassion and disdain. I have to check myself for my own thoughts and motives over even small stuff. Like yesterday, H and SD23 were on the phone and I needed help opening a jar. To my surprise, I found a degree of pleasure in diverting his attention from her. I can't think of anyone else I feel that with, although I know there is an origin in childhood (competing with my disordered brother for my parents' scarce affection and attention). The fact it comes out in my relationship with SD23 tells me that she's working those strings, not necessarily because of me, more because that's how hard she fights for attention. I don't like going down the disdain path because it leads me to immature thoughts and behaviors, even if they're innocent enough.

I want to feel unhooked, if that makes sense. Having compassion is a way to get unhooked, and boundaries are part of guarding the space for that compassion to exist. That's what I'm aiming for but some days I definitely feel disdain and petty.  

She's not really capable of supporting us in our independent relationship, nor celebrating anything we have or discover as a couple. Everything ties back to her, how she feels about what we're doing, and how she can get the same feeling we have. I guess? What am I missing?

Oof. It's so illuminating to hear someone else describe this.

This is one epic thread and even for chatty ol' me I'm surprised how long my posts are. But you describe these things that seems so specific and a thousand validation light bulbs go off. H and I even had a similar conversation about a park. I mentioned to H that I discovered a new park we could explore and the next thing I knew he and SD23 had gone there without me. It's so hard to describe to people why that might hurt your feelings without it sounding like you're whining about nothing.

To me, that is the menace about waif BPD. SD23 violates norms of civility in defensible ways. Kind of like me with the jar. What's wrong asking H to open a jar while he's on the phone? Nothing. But in that moment I remind SD23 that I am here and for an instant the thing she's fighting for is taken away.

I don't act on those feelings very often because I know there are better ones to have, and they're worth working towards. SD23 isn't there yet, and might never be.

I'm trying to find levity and humor in some of this stuff and that does work. And also feeling good in general, that seems to provide a degree of protection  

 

[livednlearned]

I tried the asking questions approach, rather than telling her what I thought she should do, or just going along with it.  And it seemed to work, she basically dropped the issue with no drama, so far.

That's an amazing outcome for a first go, Mata. Do you think she decided to drop it rather than reflect on your question (which would assume some degree of responsibility for making a choice)?

When a validating question lands bulls-eye with SD23 she becomes sheepish like she's been caught. Often she will use some kind of diversionary tactic to change subjects.

[GaGrl]

The "asking questions" scenario is startling to a pwBPD , especially one in Waif mode, because they are specifically looking to you to rescue them, have the answer, be the expert, etc. It alleviates them of any responsibility or accountability for the action they then take.