20+ Years Marriage BPD Wife Finally Wants a DIVORCE, What to do?

[kells76]

Just stepping in for a minute over from the Family Law board -- hello, MontanaDude  

As strange as it may sound, that seems like it went the best it could've. I'm not getting any vibes that she was totally spiraled or escalated -- though you do know her best.

I do not want to overwhelm her. I want to walk away from our next conversation on a positive note and with some direction. I'm not gonna give her letters or read my thoughts from my phone. She absolutely doesn't like that. I want to be succinct because she gets lost if I use long sentences.

110% right idea on not going in overwhelming her with everything you want to get on the table. I think you're headed the right direction with being very open to listening. Couple of other tweaks to your ideas could be:

"Babe... I'm just here tonight to listen to you, to hear you... nothing else" [ONLY say this if you can completely commit to not "having to" have your say that night)

"I'm so open to hearing what you're scared and worried about, if you're up for it"

[talking happens]

"Hey... that meant a lot. Anything else you'd like me to know tonight?"

[things wrap up]

And as weird as it sounds, you don't take your turn to talk right that night. Maybe get 2-3 of these "I'm just here to listen" sessions under your belt, to start those baby steps of turning around the dynamic between you guys. Lots and lots of room for her to talk and share, and get a different experience with you, where you empathetically listen. It'll take patience, yet if you can plan on that going in, it could pay off.

...

Part of me is leaning away from questions involving phrasing like "Can you explain" or "What does that mean", or questions starting with the word "You".

My gut feeling is that even those structures of questions may be too "harsh" for her in this vulnerable time.

Any time you can pivot to "We... together..." or "I just want to care about/listen to/hear you" seems like it'll get a better reception and lay a more positive foundation.

Thoughts? (From you, and/or from other members)?

...

One step at a time! Kudos to you for being willing to try something different and maybe uncomfortable for you.

-kells76

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[MontanaDude]

This is solid stuff! Thank you so much!

I feel like I constantly have to do mental gymnastics it's exhausting. At some point I need to know when to tap out. I feel like we're close because she said a divorce and at this point if I'd just been going along with it we may still be headed down that path. I just felt very strongly about asking her if she really wanted a divorce on Sunday and so far it seems it may have paid off. I'm just not ready to give up on my wife of 20 years unless that's what she wants.

Do you mean this entire thing or just this last convo that didn't spiral? It Def didn't feel like that convo escalated.

I think we struggle with even texting but talking can be even harder. Texting just feels so cold at times. But I know it gives us both time to better process.

I like your idea on just listening, caring, empathy. Hard part is I'm just not even sure what she wants to do right now? And I don't know if she knows.

So maybe phrase the questions like this?

I really want to listen and understand what you are scared and worried about?

Saying your heart gave up sounds extremely difficult, I'd love to understand what that means to you?

When I asked if you really wanted a divorce on Sunday you said you do not. If you want to share I'd love to understand what that means for you and us?

Thanks!

I'm definitely always willing to try harder and new things. I don't mind being uncomfortable. It's what I do for my entire career.

Just stepping in for a minute over from the Family Law board -- hello, MontanaDude  

As strange as it may sound, that seems like it went the best it could've. I'm not getting any vibes that she was totally spiraled or escalated -- though you do know her best.

110% right idea on not going in overwhelming her with everything you want to get on the table. I think you're headed the right direction with being very open to listening. Couple of other tweaks to your ideas could be:

"Babe... I'm just here tonight to listen to you, to hear you... nothing else" [ONLY say this if you can completely commit to not "having to" have your say that night)

"I'm so open to hearing what you're scared and worried about, if you're up for it"

[talking happens]

"Hey... that meant a lot. Anything else you'd like me to know tonight?"

[things wrap up]

And as weird as it sounds, you don't take your turn to talk right that night. Maybe get 2-3 of these "I'm just here to listen" sessions under your belt, to start those baby steps of turning around the dynamic between you guys. Lots and lots of room for her to talk and share, and get a different experience with you, where you empathetically listen. It'll take patience, yet if you can plan on that going in, it could pay off.

...

Part of me is leaning away from questions involving phrasing like "Can you explain" or "What does that mean", or questions starting with the word "You".

My gut feeling is that even those structures of questions may be too "harsh" for her in this vulnerable time.

Any time you can pivot to "We... together..." or "I just want to care about/listen to/hear you" seems like it'll get a better reception and lay a more positive foundation.

Thoughts? (From you, and/or from other members)?

...

One step at a time! Kudos to you for being willing to try something different and maybe uncomfortable for you.

-kells76

[formflier]

For you...no more saying the word "divorce"...no more saying the word "you"

When your mind says "you need to xyz.." switch to a more "open questioning" thing..."gosh..seems like there should be a way to work through scared feelings"  (see how it's ambiguous whose feelings you are talking about?  That way she can "grab it" if she wants...and if she really can't process right now...she can leave it.

When you say things like "you need to take a deep breath and calm yourself..."...you have tossed it in her lap...she has to do something with it...and if she is already not calm..most likely she will "toss it back" to you. (not what you want)

Last for now:  Lots of listening...make sure you have it right...do NOT JADE.

Example:  her..blah blah you xyz...and I was scared.

you:  I'm sorry you were scared...(pause for a while)

let's say there is back and forth and convo ends.

Now let's also assume that if she knew what you were "really" doing and thinking..she shouldn't have been scared.  DO NOT tell her this in same "listening" conversation...give it a couple days and in a very few words...in almost an "oh by the way.." kind of way, you can say something like

"Hey babe...was thinking about what you said a few nights ago.  I was trying to accomplish (fill in blank)..I'm sorry it was misunderstood.  (stop talking...yes...those few words) then lean in to give her a peck and then ask if she wants some water or tea.

If she wants to talk about what you said..she can raise it.  If she wants tea..get it for her and let the seed you just planted...germinate...very slowly.

When in doubt...LISTEN.

Best,

FF 

[MontanaDude]

Thanks for this. I'm letting it sink in and trying to make sure I understand.

So for me don't say the word divorce unless she mentions something? And don't say "You" if I'm asking her a question?

Why don't ask about the divorce question? Is that not a valid question to ask?

I'm trying to figure out how to best approach the questions during our dinner conversation tomorrow. She agreed to having dinner and talking about this stuff.

At this point she's expecting me home tonight from my trip and in bed with her and said she'll see me soon.

I really thought a lot of what we had been going through our entire marriage was just normal marriage stuff and some of the things you hear about being a woman (BTW I do not mean this in a sexist way at all) just her not being able to let go and forgive about things, getting super angry at times with no rational understanding, stuffing her feelings, depressed, anxious, irritable. And of course me being oblivious to some things and having no idea about how she felt about some things because she wouldn't express them to me with words. It's just very interesting as I've learned more about BPD and talked to other woman how it seems a mixture with BPD just magnifying everything for her.

I've literally felt like I was in the twilight zone at times. Hopefully now being able to understand how I can best navigate this and have effective conversations and communicate with her, maybe I can help save our marriage.

I'm literally willing to do whatever it takes and have been so far.

She also finally went to therapy on her own, the female therapist I found for us and she didn't go but rescheduled. She said she liked her. I meet with the same therapist again tomorrow and am very hopeful she'll be able to help us both. I have lots of my own work to do as well! I 100% know this.

Thanks so much for all your help.

For you...no more saying the word "divorce"...no more saying the word "you"

When your mind says "you need to xyz.." switch to a more "open questioning" thing..."gosh..seems like there should be a way to work through scared feelings"  (see how it's ambiguous whose feelings you are talking about?  That way she can "grab it" if she wants...and if she really can't process right now...she can leave it.

When you say things like "you need to take a deep breath and calm yourself..."...you have tossed it in her lap...she has to do something with it...and if she is already not calm..most likely she will "toss it back" to you. (not what you want)

Last for now:  Lots of listening...make sure you have it right...do NOT JADE.

Example:  her..blah blah you xyz...and I was scared.

you:  I'm sorry you were scared...(pause for a while)

let's say there is back and forth and convo ends.

Now let's also assume that if she knew what you were "really" doing and thinking..she shouldn't have been scared.  DO NOT tell her this in same "listening" conversation...give it a couple days and in a very few words...in almost an "oh by the way.." kind of way, you can say something like

"Hey babe...was thinking about what you said a few nights ago.  I was trying to accomplish (fill in blank)..I'm sorry it was misunderstood.  (stop talking...yes...those few words) then lean in to give her a peck and then ask if she wants some water or tea.

If she wants to talk about what you said..she can raise it.  If she wants tea..get it for her and let the seed you just planted...germinate...very slowly.

When in doubt...LISTEN.

Best,

FF 

[NonnyMouse]

I've seen some great progress in my relationship with my uBPDw. And I find it upsetting when I read here people thinking that talking or conversations is going to solve everything. To a first approximation I'd say that talking/conversations solve nothing! It's best to assume that they will actually make things worse. I know that in marriage counselling they seem to be fixated on talking through issues. I just don't believe that, especially not with BPD in the picture.

As has been said before:

Less is more.

If in doubt, STFU.

Don't raise contentious issues.

If contentious issues are raised just minimally and empathically respond. Single words or noises if possible. Seriously! Tell yourself that the issue will soon blow over. And congratulate yourself when it does!

[MontanaDude]

Thanks for chiming in. BTW what is uBPDw? Is that a BPD wife?

I'm slowly realizing conversations don't solve a lot. The challenge is I'm left wondering what the hell is going on?

Our last therapist was the one who let me know she had BPD. I had no idea what it was. I think he had a good balance of things but he triggered her and she was done. She wanted to see a female therapist and I was 100% on board with that. We've both now had 1 appt with the new one. I told her everything that happened and where we are at so we'll see how this goes. She's older in 60's with 2 kids and a widow. Seems very blunt and matter of fact which I hope will be good for my wife. I love bluntness. I have zero issues with someone calling me out for my stuff. In fact I encourage it and always ask for it in therapy. I want to be better always.

When you say the issues blow over eventually I have not found that to be the case. They just grow until it becomes a larger issue.

My wife has been dealing with a lot lately and I know she's overwhelmed. We'll see how dinner goes and I will do all I can to just listen and not get my agenda on the table at all.

I do think the "divorce" question needs to be addressed because otherwise I'm continuing to play the game of guess what's coming next, walking on eggshells and not knowing what she wants to do. She said we both need to work on ourselves which I agree.

I want to do this much differently and show her something has changed and keep her guessing. At some point though doesn't the question need to be asked. I meet with the therapist tomorrow and will see what she says based off the convo she had with my wife.

Thanks!

I've seen some great progress in my relationship with my uBPDw. And I find it upsetting when I read here people thinking that talking or conversations is going to solve everything. To a first approximation I'd say that talking/conversations solve nothing! It's best to assume that they will actually make things worse. I know that in marriage counselling they seem to be fixated on talking through issues. I just don't believe that, especially not with BPD in the picture.

As has been said before:

Less is more.

If in doubt, STFU.

Don't raise contentious issues.

If contentious issues are raised just minimally and empathically respond. Single words or noises if possible. Seriously! Tell yourself that the issue will soon blow over. And congratulate yourself when it does!

[mitten]

BTW what is uBPDw? Is that a BPD wife?

I'm slowly realizing conversations don't solve a lot. The challenge is I'm left wondering what the hell is going on?

uBPDw - stands for "undiagnosed BPD wife".  Confusing I know. 

Everyone that responded to your post has better coaching than I can give, however I'll just say my initial impression when reading your questions for your wife was that it's not practical to expect a person with BPD to be able to answer most of those questions.  And even if they answer the questions they may not be truthful or actually rational.  The person with BPD will think the reasoning they are giving is true, because it feels real to them, when in fact it is not.  So I agree with everyone else, you're better off listening and not asking specific things. 

[kells76]

And I find it upsetting when I read here people thinking that talking or conversations is going to solve everything. To a first approximation I'd say that talking/conversations solve nothing! It's best to assume that they will actually make things worse. I know that in marriage counselling they seem to be fixated on talking through issues. I just don't believe that, especially not with BPD in the picture

There's a fair point to what NonnyMouse brings up. As you've mentioned yourself, the pattern between you and your W, and then also your W's behaviors, didn't start overnight. These are some long-term, perhaps entrenched dynamics.

While you have 100% control over your 50% contribution to the dynamic, there is a true aspect to the statement that conversation won't change who she is. Personality disorders at their core aren't fixable by pharmaceuticals or by what someone else does or doesn't do. They're really, really ingrained postures towards the world, really entrenched and almost primal ways of being. Hence... personality disorder.

So the true point is that your wife will still be who she is, at the same time that you are working on your 50% contribution. It would take long-term commitment to some painful personal work for her to adjust that psychic structure. Not impossible, yet as NonnyMouse points out, it's not just having a better conversation that fixes her. So, that's fair to keep in mind. This is long-term stuff.

That being said, the work you do on your 50% can make a huge difference for you personally in the livability of the relationship, and can create a different "baseline vibe" between you guys where much less time is spent on "managing the crazy" and a lot more time is spent on enjoying the positive moments and disengaging from the irrational/negative times. I wonder if a lot of your guys' "relationship time" is spent on managing/dealing with her intense emotions... it's not impossible to change that together-time ratio to less of "you helping manage her feelings" and more of "you guys enjoying positive times, and you personally disengaging from doing her work for her".

...

Anyway. Lots of meta stuff. Which (again this phrase) long-term is hopefully helpful. Committing to staying in a relationship with a pwBPD (person with BPD, or traits/behaviors) can take a lot of non-intuitive skills applied for a long period of time. Not a weekend project, though for many it is worth it. Something each member decides individually.

Couple other thoughts:

it's not practical to expect a person with BPD to be able to answer most of those questions.  And even if they answer the questions they may not be truthful or actually rational.  The person with BPD will think the reasoning they are giving is true, because it feels real to them, when in fact it is not.  So I agree with everyone else, you're better off listening and not asking specific things.

Subtle point from mitten.

We hang so much weight on "the words that were said". Like, if my husbands' kids' mom (the reason I joined here) swears at one point that "she is a logical person", and then later, when it comes down to figuring out the kids' schedule, says one kid should have more time with him and one kid should have less, and then when pressed on it says "logic has nothing to do with it"... we get frustrated, angry, and we point to "the words that were said" -- "You said you were logical! This isn't logical!"

I'd join in mitten's caution against hanging too many hopes on specific words that get said (i.e., in answers to specific questions). Sure, a best-case scenario is that you get to ask your "do you really want a divorce" question, and at that time, she says "of course not babe, let's work it out". Part of what characterizes BPD is harmfully intense and (wildly) fluctuating emotions that, instead of facts outside leading to feelings inside, instead are the seed inside that leads to "creating facts" externally to justify the feeling.

If another conversation happens after that, and she is experiencing harmfully intense, strongly fluctuating emotions, she may justify those feelings by bringing divorce back up -- as it's also an intense and strongly emotional "external" thing that justifies how she feels inside.

You would be caught off-guard: "But babe, you said last week you were committed, you never wanted a divorce again..."

That would be really hurtful to your guys' relationship.

So, it's not to say "don't listen to anything she says". It's more to say -- listen for the emotions behind the words, and understand that if she is in fact dealing with BPD, then it's not going to help your relationship to hang a ton of weight on specific words she says. She may use words to "get out" feelings from inside, versus (as more of us do) use words to be really specific about communicating. It's the ol' "expression versus communication" debate over what speaking/writing are for. She expresses, you communicate. If we frame what she does as "well she must be communicating... just like I do"... that isn't a helpful direction forward for keeping that relationship together.

Understand that when she answers intense questions, she may be expressing a feeling in the moment, versus communicating a "stone tablet truth". If you can work with that, that can really help.

[kells76]

Why don't ask about the divorce question? Is that not a valid question to ask?

Good question.

I'm interested to hear what other members' takes on this are, too.

My first thought is twofold:

Don't do her work for her and Don't validate the invalid

Not doing her work: If she wants a divorce, she is an adult, and needs to figure out how to bring it up, negotiate, do the paperwork, etc. It's not appropriate to "help her" by bringing it up or reminding her of words she said. That's her job. If it's "too hard" for her to bring up what she said... that's for her to figure out. It may be uncomfortable to have a loose end there for a while... you can do it, you can sit with that discomfort. Bringing up "the past" or "what was said" with a pwBPD is rarely productive. Actions moving forward will tell you a lot more about what she wants, than asking her to clarify verbally what she wants.

Not validating the invalid: You don't want a divorce. So don't engage on or repeatedly raise a topic that you don't plan to participate in (your 50%). If she genuinely wants one, she will move forward with it in a way where the actions will tell you what she wants or doesn't want. I.e., if you get served papers, you will know generally where things are headed. Let her actions tell you what's going on. If you're committed to working on the relationship, choose not to validate things that aren't valid to you. Participate in relationship-building moves to the best of your ability. Bringing up or asking about "the divorce" may actually give it substance that it doesn't really have at the moment.

Anyway... just more thoughts.

One day at a time...

kells76

[Cat Familiar]

Totally agree with kells. Read her last two posts and commit those points to memory.

[MontanaDude]

Mitten, Kells everyone. Thanks so much. Wow you all have been extremely helpful.

This honestly in some ways has been more helpful than going to therapy. As in more direct, precise, actionable info.

Is there like an online video support group anyone knows about? If not I'd love to start one. A Zoom call with 5 or 6 people talking through issues. I've looked for a local support group and can't find one. Seriously people who've dealt with this have better info than therapist haha. I know I want to help others as well. And my daughter is also dealing with this and I need to start getting her help.

Ok... I'm following what everyone is saying. And yes there is no logic so I'm not sure why I try to be logical.

So... I came home after a 3 day trip away. Sleeping in bed with her,, hugging, saying I love you. Almost normal, not quite the physicality we had a month ago but it seems we're working our way there. I'm just not pushing. I let her give me the hug. It's a hard balance because I don't want her thinking Im putting it all on her. But definitely does not feel like we're headed towards divorce direction. And maybe she does still want it I truly don't know and to your point let her bring it up.

She's been wanting to talk about how we should move forward with the divorce and what my thoughts are on it. I haven't given her anything is it fair to just say, I don't want a divorce so let me know what you would like to do. Especially because I've been accused of being controlling in our marriage. Which I can fully appreciate her viewpoint on that. I've realized how much I've enabled her and have controlled things because she wouldn't make decisions.

Anyhow, we're meeting for dinner tonight and I want to make it a COMPLETELY different experience for her. Like blow her away where she's wondering what is going on with me. Usually I have to push for discussions.

So I'm gonna implement what you all said. Not gonna push or dig for answers. I want to lead it off with more along the lines of is there anything you'd like to discuss? She's anticipating a discussion about where we are and I'm sure she's expecting me to have all sorts of thoughts and ideas but I want to really make it about listening to her.

Thanks so much I'll let ya'll know how it goes. I'll post some of the questions I should ask and see what ya'll think. Thanks!

[kells76]

You got this! 

When in doubt...

Keep it light and pleasant -- "Babe, it's nice just being here with you... Any funny customers at work today?"

and/or

Fewer versus more words -- "Tell me more... all ears... "

She may or may not indicate she wants to do a "deep dive" conversationally... As long as you can know that ahead of time, that'll give her the "no pressure" vibes that may help things stay at an enjoyable level.

That -- the "no pressure, just nice being with you" vibes -- could be what "blows her away" as you mentioned.

One day at a time!

kells76

[MontanaDude]

You got this! 

When in doubt...

Keep it light and pleasant -- "Babe, it's nice just being here with you... Any funny customers at work today?"

and/or

Fewer versus more words -- "Tell me more... all ears... "

She may or may not indicate she wants to do a "deep dive" conversationally... As long as you can know that ahead of time, that'll give her the "no pressure" vibes that may help things stay at an enjoyable level.

That -- the "no pressure, just nice being with you" vibes -- could be what "blows her away" as you mentioned.

One day at a time!

kells76

Love this approach! I'll definitely try that.

Low pressure, let her do the talking. I'm a bit worried if she gets into the deep stuff but I'll just listen and not pile on words.

[MontanaDude]

Well it went better than could have been expected. I took her to a winery where they did Trivia and even though she didn't want to play it was fun listening and guessing on our own.

She drank some wine, I do not drink so I just listened to her talk. Lots of listening from me. Told her it was nice to just hang out.

Finally towards the end of the night she said well we didn't really talk about things so we probably should.

I just left it up to her and said I'm here to listen.

I did a lot of listening validating, and while some of it did get a bit deep I let her be the one to bring stuff up and I kept my talking to a minimum.

We talked about both seeing the same counselor and both being recommend the same book "Codependent No More" and laughed a bit about that. I actually realized about a week ago I met 5 criteria of being codependent and shared that insight with her.

I talked about owning my emotions and even though we both feel so much when the other person has high charged emotions I know I can only control My emotions and not try to fix hers.

She's still very scared and worried things will go back to how they were. I said I can appreciate that. She said she was willing to make the relationship work before even if it meant sacrificing herself. I empathized with her and said that sounds extremely difficult, and also told her I don't expect that and never would. I mentioned our fuel tanks need to be full so we can be our best selves and if she ever feels like she's sacrificing herself and wants to discuss it I'm here to talk.

My heart breaks for women, and wives struggling with this. They've given so much for so many years at their own expense and it seems like often us husband's are clueless. We want nothing more than to love our wives and be there for them. And on top of it all the hormone stuff, premenipousal just stacks it all on.

So I can help out more in ways I didn't know before, be there, Validate, empathize and work on me and being the best for her. I will be taking way more part on this forum as it's helped me tremendously. You all have been so helpful!

I'm still learning a lot and wanted to see what you guys thought about how I handled this convo today and if I could do a better job at validating her emotions or you have any other suggestions

I asked if she wanted to do a game night with some friends this morning.

Me:
630 work for tonight?

And I'm gonna make Crepes, eggs and bacon.

Her:
Ya. That sounds good. I want to be honest. I feel anxious about it. I can’t pretend like everything is “normal”. Does that make sense?

Me:
Absolutely. I can understand what you are saying. Thanks for being honest. Is there anything I can do or you'd like me to do to help with your feeling anxious?

I thought a game night would be a good break from the stress and chaos of late and help us both. That's why I wanted to make sure you were good with it.

Have a great day at work crushing it!

I love you

Her:
Not necessarily. I just can’t jump back like I’m great, as much as I wish I could.

I agree. It will be good. Thank you. I love you too.

Me:
Thanks for sharing with me how you're feeling.

Her:
I’m trying to just be real.

Me:
Funny Gif
Thank you. Me too.

[MontanaDude]

Quick update. I'm still hanging in there. Divorce is off the table at least for the time being. I'm of course anxious and worried it's still there for her and I'm sure it's at the back of her mind but I can only control what I can do and not worry about her.

I'm continuing to work on being the best person I can be for me, my kids and if she decides that's good enough for her to then great. And if not I don't want to be with someone who doesn't see the value in working on those things together and is unable to forgive.

She's at least committed to moving forward though it feels very ethereal if that makes sense? Like it's hard to even talk about anything with her that remotely is a serious conversation.

We're both doing individual therapy, haven't started marriage therapy "again" and I don't want to push for it as much as we need it. I've been on my own 4 times over the last month and will continue to at least lead by example which is the best way.

She says things like "She wants to just be" without clarifying so I am going to ask her to clarify what that means for her.

One of the most difficult things is sitting here wondering when she will get set off again and all hell breaks loose.

I'm doing my best to not engage and validate the invalid which is hard in practice. I'm still not 100% sure how to do this effectively.

It blows me away how everything I say tends to be viewed in a negative light and I literally don't know how to communicate with her past anything superficial and "easy". She throws conversations she doesn't seem to like back in my face

She has mentioned she doesn't have the capability to even talk about things but yet still wants to move forward?

And she still has so much pains, resentment, anger, hurts bottled up inside it comes out in any conversation that is remotely emotional and I'm left feeling again like I have to tuck my tail between my legs and retreat.

The emotional roller coaster of it all is completely draining and exhausting though I have learned to let go more, put her feelings and issues back on her, even telling her so and owning my stuff and working on me.

Just got done listening to "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality", finishing "Codependent No More" which I realized I was struggling and still am with codependency and in all of this while it's good to know I still feel as if there is no progress made to connect, engage, discuss anything remotely emotional or working on our marriage.

I know it's multiple things, time, consistency, effort, and allowing her to work what she needs to work on and I do the same.

I think we both have a lot of codependency which makes a relationship difficult. The difference is I have always had very high self esteem, don't let people get under my skin, and am able to forgive and move on. There are things she has mentioned it's clear she is harboring deep, deep resentment and hurt on and doesn't want to let it go, nor does she think she even can.

And in those times I start to question why am I going to continue to work so hard if she doesn't even think she'll ever be able to move past hurts? And if this is her bottleneck and anytime we talk about something remotely difficult she goes back to all the pains and hurts and that is the forefront of the conversation.

And then fails to recognize her part in it all, though I am not pointing that out of course. But I happily and readily admit my failures and things I have done, and that I am and have continually worked on improvement. The reality is we can move past things and do better. At least that's what I am doing and showing. She seems to be stuck.

What in the heck is the best approach here? Time, consistency, and learning?

[formflier]

  There are things she has mentioned it's clear she is harboring deep, deep resentment and hurt on and doesn't want to let it go, nor does she think she even can.

In another thread  kells76 posted something that is critical for you to understand and apply on it's most fundamental level...like the starting point of how you approach the entire relationship.

If you're able to radically accept (i.e., "I see that this is who she is") that she will likely always be someone for whom words are for emotional expression, versus communication of facts, then you may be able to find some workability in staying together.

I think it's important to read that a few times.

Really focus on the "feeling" and "emotion" when she says she (paraphrase) "doesn't know if she will ever get over it"...rather than her giving you a "fact"...or  "thoughtful judgment".

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

Thank you this is extremely helpful! Focusing on her words being more emotion and feeling driven which I can relate and understand because we all do this at times. The struggle is she reacts as if they are facts. And projects all the hurt, pain, resentment onto me in our conversations and no matter what I say she picks out the negative and I'm left feeling completely confused and more than anything stuck with her.

It's interesting she tells me because I am a good salesman I just analyze everything, I take her words and the conversations and spin them around... I 100% can appreciate this and this is her reality. As I've been in therapy I have talked through this and come to realize I am not spinning things around but trying to talk through it with her logically and it is definitely the wrong approach.

The way of thinking in working with someone with BP is completely illogical and not intuitive. It takes time for all this to sink in and practice it.

She is noticing "changes" which is for now me basically taking a step back and not saying a whole lot or trying to push issues and discussions. She has said "I want to just be" which I'm not sure what that means for her. She hasn't explained it, I wrote her a quick note today if she can tell me what that means for her so I can make sure I understand and can help do my part.

The lack of clarity in conversations is one of the most difficult things for me to wrap my head around and sit with. I'm learning to do better with it. It's just so counterintuitive to me. Talk, discuss, work through things, have resolution and move on. Ughhhh I wish it was that simple.

But... in all this. I do love her unconditionally to want to make this work and understand her better. Of course there are boundaries that if crossed I unfortunately will not be able to remain but I can;t even convey those to her yet because any "boundaries" or "ultimatums" are seen negatively. I will have to have the conversations soon but I'm allowing her time and space right now and will also discuss it more in therapy.

My poor wife literally can't even sleep right now. She tosses and turns. She has admitted though it's her "PLEASE READ" and she has to deal with it. I don't know how to help her besides reassure her I am here if she needs me. I know it's partly because she continues to bury, repress, harbor resentment and if we have a bad day it ruins her entire world, demeanor. I think it's partly why she "gave up" and doesn't feel like she has the energy to make the marriage work.

I'm looking into something called a healing separation and plan to discuss it with the therapist. To help give her the time and space she needs but yet specific time frames and rules of engagement for it. This is what she failed to give me any of with a "divorce" or separation. She couldn't say anything other than, she has to figure it out. I cannot sit in limbo for weeks why she figures it out. So I may need to take the initiative for my own mental health as well and propose something like this.

Anyone ever been in a healing separation or know much about it with a BP partner?

I think #5 is where we are at: https://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/why-and-how-to-pursue-a-healing-separation/

In another thread  kells76 posted something that is critical for you to understand and apply on it's most fundamental level...like the starting point of how you approach the entire relationship.


I think it's important to read that a few times.

Really focus on the "feeling" and "emotion" when she says she (paraphrase) "doesn't know if she will ever get over it"...rather than her giving you a "fact"...or  "thoughtful judgment".

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

The way of thinking in working with someone with BP is completely illogical and not intuitive. It takes time for all this to sink in and practice it.

Your thinking style appears very much like mine.  I'm an ESTJ...executive type...I love process improvement..facts...logical debate and all that.


I completely understand and agree with where you are coming from...because I was there and sometimes "go back there".

Still        there is nothing helpful in that attitude/point of view.

Remember..pwBPD are very sensitive, so they will pick up on "negative judgement ".    The attitude that I highlight is true yet it also will come through in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways.

What I find helpful is this..

What if the person you love actually spoke a different language...it kinda appears the same but on further reflection...it's a different language.  Not better or worse..just different.

So now your "attitude" is that you are interested in what this person you love is trying to say and you need to learn a new language to properly get that.


Can you step back and see how one of these is likely to be helpful...and the other...not so much.

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

Thanks for this!

BTW I am a ENFP - Campaigner on the 16 personality types.

I can fully appreciate what you are saying about the language. Makes sense. I hope it's not to late to learn her language better and salvage what we have. It feels based off her actions and words it may be to late... I'm definitely continuing to learn differently and she has even said she's noticed my efforts.

I am resisting slipping into old habits and not pushing issues and working through things logically.

Right now my goal is serving her, understanding her, listening, and working on myself more than any other time while learning new communication methods and more about BP even though she won't address it herself. I know there are things I can do to help us have a better relationship.

Thanks for the words of wisdom!

Your thinking style appears very much like mine.  I'm an ESTJ...executive type...I love process improvement..facts...logical debate and all that.


I completely understand and agree with where you are coming from...because I was there and sometimes "go back there".

Still        there is nothing helpful in that attitude/point of view.

Remember..pwBPD are very sensitive, so they will pick up on "negative judgement ".    The attitude that I highlight is true yet it also will come through in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways.

What I find helpful is this..

What if the person you love actually spoke a different language...it kinda appears the same but on further reflection...it's a different language.  Not better or worse..just different.

So now your "attitude" is that you are interested in what this person you love is trying to say and you need to learn a new language to properly get that.


Can you step back and see how one of these is likely to be helpful...and the other...not so much.

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

BTW @formflier what do you mean by pick up on negative judgement? I don't feel I'm judging her at all? She has said she feels judged and I'm trying to continue to understand how and what I am doing to convey that to her? She feels judged by a lot of people though and has brought that up throughout our marriage. Those people are so judgemental...

[formflier]

BTW @formflier what do you mean by pick up on negative judgement? I don't feel I'm judging her at all? She has said she feels judged and I'm trying to continue to understand how and what I am doing to convey that to her? She feels judged by a lot of people though and has brought that up throughout our marriage. Those people are so judgemental...

I'm sure that you are not "judging" her and that most normal people would agree.

This is us here...BPD and those that act in those "BPDish" ways are not the norm...right?  They are outliers.

So...super duper sensitive and will likely "see" judgment where there IS NO JUDGMENT.  (I think your experience with her validates this)

So...I see two broad choices.

1.  Convince her that her "judgment radar" is defective...not normal and she needs to adjust it.

or

2.  Be conscientious about  communicating in such a way that makes it harder for her to  "tag" you as "being a judger".

Please note my language...I said "make it harder"...not "make it so she never feels judged"...

There is no "solution" here that works all the time...yet this can be made lots better.  LOTS.

For the rest of the time, you can assume a neutral attitude and let her "call in rounds on her own position" 

Best,

FF

 

[MontanaDude]

Totally, I am tracking.

#1 definitely is futile!

#2 while hard is the obvious choice. The struggle of course is sometimes it seems like no matter what you say or do it's judgey... What do you mean by call in her own rounds? Sounds like a good analogy just want to make sure I'm tracking.

Thanks so much! This is some good stuff. Seriously really appreciate your help.

When's the party for "People with Spouses who have BPD so we can get smarter." I need to go to that party.

Thanks!

I'm sure that you are not "judging" her and that most normal people would agree.

This is us here...BPD and those that act in those "BPDish" ways are not the norm...right?  They are outliers.

So...super duper sensitive and will likely "see" judgment where there IS NO JUDGMENT.  (I think your experience with her validates this)

So...I see two broad choices.

1.  Convince her that her "judgment radar" is defective...not normal and she needs to adjust it.

or

2.  Be conscientious about  communicating in such a way that makes it harder for her to  "tag" you as "being a judger".

Please note my language...I said "make it harder"...not "make it so she never feels judged"...

There is no "solution" here that works all the time...yet this can be made lots better.  LOTS.

For the rest of the time, you can assume a neutral attitude and let her "call in rounds on her own position" 

Best,

FF

 

[formflier]

  What do you mean by call in her own rounds? 

Sorry..military analogy.  If someone is calling in an artillery strike..and you are next to them...and they are calling for round to land on their own position...at some point you leave if they won't listen to you.

Calling in rounds on your own position...

Hey many...this is hard stuff and lots of it is not intuitive and requires deep thought...and deep thought when a pwBPD has just scrambled your brains with a crazy azz argument..is unlikely to ever work.

So...take all this onboard and be DELIBERATE about being kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

Sorry..military analogy.  If someone is calling in an artillery strike..and you are next to them...and they are calling for round to land on their own position...at some point you leave if they won't listen to you.

Calling in rounds on your own position...

Hey many...this is hard stuff and lots of it is not intuitive and requires deep thought...and deep thought when a pwBPD has just scrambled your brains with a crazy azz argument..is unlikely to ever work.

So...take all this onboard and be DELIBERATE about being kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

All good I figured it was. I was army for 4 years. In the dental corps so no combat experience.

Thanks man I appreciate it. How long have you been with your spouse and how long have you known about BPD?

I'm only about 6 months into knowing she's dealing with it but I knew she was struggling our entire marriage. It seemed medication helped her be calmer but that isn't the underlying issue and so after her emotions for 20 years it all came boiling to the surface and I'm left spining wondering what the heck is going on!

I am committed to her and learning all I can to be a better husband for her and a better man for me. I can't see myself walking away unless marital boundaries are crossed and even though I've felt a lot of pains and hurts from her but I know it's not intentional and we're still battling through.

[formflier]

Hey...I'm retired Naval Aviator, whatever you imagine life flying off aircraft carriers is like...that's a pretty good picture of my first 10 years.  Second 10 years I was an active duty reservist, in charge of making sure other reservists were ready, I still flew but wasn't on the carrier and went all over central and south america using my plane to chase smugglers.

Later in that last 10 years I commanded 2 Navy shore installations and still got to fly a little bit while in those positions.

Anyway...I'm sure that military marriage masked BPDish type behavior ( and in my wife it leaned more PPD (paranoid) rather than BPD...) 

About 15 years into marriage we had a natural disaster that forced us from our home/farm for about 6 months.  Upon reflection I can see that my wife and I had dramatically  different mental health responses to those events. 

I clung to facts to prove the world was ok and she started accusing me of sleeping with women, having a secret life, having secret kids (yes..actually had a baby identified that was "mine" and at the last second before paternity testing..she decided it wasn't my baby but I still made the Mom holler from my manliness...on a regular basis.

Oh..the days when FF had a harem...I miss those days.. (not really but it was entertaining)

Essentially I would prove her theories wrong, which invalidated her...so the next theory came back even worse and worse...and worse...because I was pouring gas on her "fire" with "truth".

So several years of steady decline under one of the umpteen counselors we went to suggested I read SWOE (stop walking on eggshells). 

Then several years of horror as I learned boundaries and how to respond to BPD/PPD in a loving and healthy way...and then for several years things have been relatively calm.  We will have months where I would be hard pressed to find even a single example of "something off"..let alone BPD/PPD.

Now..in the last few days..she has been on the warpath and "projecting" her emotions at me...bigtime. 

At best my responses are "below average" and have inflamed things...so I need to "get back to the basics" while her "storm" passes.

Best,

FF

[mitten]

FF, what an adventurous story!  Both in your military career as well as your marriage.  Great to hear some of the history from someone with a longer knowledge of BPD.  Thanks for sharing your personal experience.  Hope the latest storm passes quickly. 

[MontanaDude]

Thanks for sharing FF! I'm a helicopter pilot, tried flying in the Army but couldn't because of glasses but did it on my own as a civilian. Almost got my instructor rating. I'm only Instrument rated, 190 hours. Was planning to do for a career but realized not enough money, and was gonna have to do a lot of crap flying and moving around. Anyways... another story.

Sounds like you have been through the ringer with your wife! WOW. I cannot even imagine going through that.

Do you find these storms happen often? As I look back at my marriage I realize it's every interaction that is negative for her. Her emotions get projected on me each time. Even with simple stuff and then she spirals until she has some sort of "mental reset."

I'm just biting my tongue for now, working on me and can't really talk about anything difficult outside of therapy who can help her pause and listen, reflect and engage in a constructive manner.

It's so disheartening at times and discouraging. Because I am now working on doing things differently because of what I know I am going to give it time to implement and see how things go, I just hope I can keep up the mental battle and stay strong. I've realized how unhappy I have been at times in this because I felt so lost, alone, and feeling as if I must just be this terrible husband who "makes her feel" all these things. But I know I am not and I know I am a great husband and father. Our kids our amazing and they have let me know I have always been a wonderful dad.

My heart breaks for her knowing she battles this my hope and prayer is she will recognize and get the help she needs.

I read the workbook "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and it was extremely helpful. I bought her a BPD workbook but that did not go over well at all... The interesting thing about it is learning the techniques, DBT and addressing it head on seems to make a world of difference for people. I just don't even know how to approach the topic with her, it's toxic each and every time. I want her to understand I don't view her as broken, or labeled, or crazy. We all have stuff to deal with and work through, if we can recognize and understand what it is why not get help from resources and people who can help us? For me it seems at a surface level like a pride and ego thing for her but I'm sure it's far deeper.

It's just very discouraging at times and a part of me wants to do a Healing separation so she can recognize this is her stuff to deal with and stop projecting it on me. My worry is she will just put her head down like she does, do her work and not address her issues. But I realize that's ultimately not my problem. I can only control and work on me. How do you help someone who doesn;t want to help themselves :-(

Thanks!

[kells76]

Hey MontanaDude, welcome back --

I'm just biting my tongue for now, working on me and can't really talk about anything difficult outside of therapy who can help her pause and listen, reflect and engage in a constructive manner.

Can you remind me, are either/both of you in therapy? Sorry if it's slipped my mind.

For me it seems at a surface level like a pride and ego thing for her but I'm sure it's far deeper.

I suspect it's a level of shame that is beyond anything we've experienced... so much so that even a "normal" thing like "I love you, I support you, maybe this workbook that has helped so many people can help you too, I'm giving it to you because I care about you" -- well, like you said, it goes over like a ton of bricks. Something that would be like a 0 or 1 / 10 on a "normal" shame-meter is a 8-9-10 of shame for a pwBPD.

So, you're right, it can come across as something that isn't shame -- as pride, self-image, ego, whatever -- yet I think that's covering up a profound sense of worthlessness that is excruciating to even "poke at" indirectly.

That's why I'm hoping that when you mentioned above "not being able to talk about stuff outside of therapy" that she is in fact going, because that'd be a very good sign. Also hoping that she is with a T who as you mentioned "can help her pause and listen, reflect and engage in a constructive manner". Fingers crossed. It would be an excellent sign if she has a trusting connection with a professional like that.

...

a part of me wants to do a Healing separation so she can recognize this is her stuff to deal with and stop projecting it on me

It's understandable that you'd hope she could recognize "whose emotional stuff is whose".

As you think about what she's like, and where she is in her journey, what do you think realistically would happen if you chose that?

...

Just want to say that overall, based on a lot of members' stories that I've read here, yours does sound more hopeful than others. I commend you for wanting to take ownership of "your stuff" and my hope would be that by modeling that behavior, and being willing to change some ways you interact (to "learn to speak her native language"), you guys can have more times of neutral or positive interactions and fewer times of emotional blow-ups running your marriage.

Hang in there...

kells76

[carpenter]

Montana Dude. Unfortunately I don't have much time right now but I can't not reply to your situation any longer.
Our stories are almost identical right down to our locations. I'm still not totally familiar with the forum and it's privacy guidelines so I won't ask what town/city you're in and I won't offer mine here now. If there is a pvt msg I'll try to contact you there.

[bugwaterguy]

I am also in a similar situation to MontanaDude.  I am married 25 years, with a wife threatening divorce.  I finished Stop Walking On Eggshells and the workbook.  Setting boundaries seems to be helping.

Advice from mitten, formflier, Cat Familiar, and NonnyMouse are all very helpful.  It is good to see folks having long term success.

Do you ever get to a point where you aren't "on edge" knowing that your wife could get upset at you over nothing?    Things are going fairly well right now.  I am waiting for a minor disagreement to set things off again.