I've felt like I'm going crazy...

[livednlearned]

What about ways to appear "confident" when you desperately want to always say the perfect thing to make her laugh or smile or want to be with you?

Codependence can have an addictive feel to it, and what you're describing sounds like codependence. What you want is to feel confident that you can make it through the moment without having a drink. But how to not have that drink? It's tough. Some people do it through interpersonal therapy (takes longer, apparently is more long-lasting, goes deeper), and some people will do CBT or DBT to change habits and replace dysfunctional behavior with better, healthier behavior. Basically, change habits.

Everyone has a different sweet spot about how to get there. I can tell you as a woman, there is nothing attractive about desperation or neediness. If you can't fake it till you make it, how about sticking to text messages for a while? Or email. Try to be light, confident and pay attention to how you feel when you change what you do.

Since the fact that I triggered her abandonment issues seems to be what caused her to break things off (she didn't rage or act spiteful, but rather sorry. Kept telling me she cared and didn't want to be someone who hurt me), while I get that I need to give her space and time to "miss me", she did text the other day, and I have yet to answer.

I'm not sure I see the fear of abandonment so much? I don't fully understand LDR, so how abandonment fits in is a bit of a puzzle to me. I don't quite understand how there can be a fear of abandonment when the long-distance sort of pre-empts the possibility for abandonment. It seems more like engulfment, though perhaps both are present.

So I'm wondering... .Would expressing my intent to be there with her, which I had promised before, even during this downtime, be a good thing to do, or would that send a more desperate message. She leaned on me and trusted me and feels, I'm sure, that I broached that trust.

Seems more desperate in the larger picture of what's been going on.

But she's going to need me soon as she got another ticket, and is already in severe financial straits. I can help her and was going to, so I'm wondering if doing so would possibly split me white, or send the message, as expressed above, that she can do whatever and suffer no consequences.

I guess I have a question in response to your question. If she split you white and didn't respect you at the same time, would you be ok with that?

The goal, for me, is to get her to come back, and use the skills I'm learning here to communicate better and be in her life as her romantic partner.

By romantic partner, do you mean back to having a LDR with nothing face to face?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[obliv326]

Thank you very much for your reply. This very much has an addictive feel, right down to cravings and the flood of endporphins when I hear from her, and now kind of withdrawal. It's not fun, and I'm going to make changes. I've already changed my behavior and I do feel better.  But I also know she'll be back and I want to be ready, like I said

We probably will stick to text messages, at least initially. Light and funny I can do.

So, to LDR and abandonment... .It was always assumed, I think, that i wouldn't always be a LDR. She's from the area, and while we never really discussed it, it was sort of assumed that she would eventually be back. So, no, it was never going to be a no face to face thing. As for abandonment, just the ending of the relationship. We talked everyday. I think she didn't want that to end and neither did I, and we wanted it to become something real. Not sure what engulfment means, but it's possible.

As far as desperation is concerned, I guess the reason I ask is since the abandonment or ending of the relationship that I did seems to have been the catalyst for her to end things, esp reading between the lines, I was wondering if taking a step to alleviate that might be in order.  I don't know, but I'm guessing not.

As far as splitting white with no respect, what would be the more difficult move... .getting her to respect me or getting her to split me white? I'm not particularly happy with not being respected, but I would have to imagine it is possible to regain both?

And by romantic partner, i would be a LDR initially, but like I said, the idea is to have face to face contact. And I wouldn't have to do all the work I did before. I hope that clarifies something.

[livednlearned]

This very much has an addictive feel, right down to cravings and the flood of endporphins when I hear from her, and now kind of withdrawal. It's not fun, and I'm going to make changes. I've already changed my behavior and I do feel better.

It does seem like a very one-sided relationship. Intellectually, you wrote that you recognize this one-sidedness (and resent it). Emotionally, it seems that you react to relationship pressures, even mild ones. You do have a choice to say no (as in, no more financial support), but doing so will probably create a lot of anxiety. That's pretty classic codependence.

So, to LDR and abandonment... .It was always assumed, I think, that i wouldn't always be a LDR. She's from the area, and while we never really discussed it, it was sort of assumed that she would eventually be back. So, no, it was never going to be a no face to face thing. As for abandonment, just the ending of the relationship. We talked everyday. I think she didn't want that to end and neither did I, and we wanted it to become something real. Not sure what engulfment means, but it's possible.

It might be helpful to read about enmeshment and engulfment. She may have much stronger fears about enmeshment/engulfment than abandonment, which would explain her satisfaction with the status quo of a LDR.

As far as desperation is concerned, I guess the reason I ask is since the abandonment or ending of the relationship that I did seems to have been the catalyst for her to end things, esp reading between the lines, I was wondering if taking a step to alleviate that might be in order.  I don't know, but I'm guessing not.

You asserted a boundary with her, and she didn't like it. Her response (to end it) is her way of saying she prefers the status quo -- which is to be in a LDR where, even when she comes to town, she can decide whether to be bothered with seeing you or not. She is resisting the boundary. Whether she is rejecting you remains to be seen. Given her financial dependence on you, do you think she will really end things with you?

As far as splitting white with no respect, what would be the more difficult move... .getting her to respect me or getting her to split me white? I'm not particularly happy with not being respected, but I would have to imagine it is possible to regain both?

She is probably going to split you white when she needs financial help, would be my guess. She has also already reached out.

Getting her to respect you means respecting yourself first.

[C.Stein]

As far as splitting white with no respect, what would be the more difficult move... .getting her to respect me or getting her to split me white? I'm not particularly happy with not being respected, but I would have to imagine it is possible to regain both?

I think you have to see you cannot get her to do these things for you.  What you can do is set some healthy boundaries for yourself.  How she responds to those boundaries will determine where the relationship is headed.

[patientandclear]

Just dropping in to say: I suggest you stop paying for her stuff.

The overtones of "I paid for you and now you are supposed to give me something in return" are probably off putting to many people, but for pwBPD, the feeling that they are expected to give something they feel ambivalent about giving because they "owe" the other person something, is often anathema, it seems. My ex wBPD was extreme in this regard--it made him feel indebted if I bought a cup of coffee for him. He wanted to be free to make his choices without obligation. Not all pwBPD are the same, certainly, and she may seem to want you to pay her obligations ... .But I'd guess that in her head, that is in tension with the conditions for genuine freely given love and respect.

When you described your hurt about this situation, you several times mentioned that you had given her all this stuff and now she isn't treating you well. Be wary of the thought trap of "giving to get." Give what you feel like giving, not to bind someone to you, make them dependent, make them stay.

[Grey Kitty]

So, to LDR and abandonment... .It was always assumed, I think, that i wouldn't always be a LDR. She's from the area, and while we never really discussed it, it was sort of assumed that she would eventually be back. So, no, it was never going to be a no face to face thing. As for abandonment, just the ending of the relationship. We talked everyday. I think she didn't want that to end and neither did I, and we wanted it to become something real. Not sure what engulfment means, but it's possible.

It might be helpful to read about enmeshment and engulfment. She may have much stronger fears about enmeshment/engulfment than abandonment, which would explain her satisfaction with the status quo of a LDR.

I'll second that possibility... .I recall several stories from these forums of people who were in an LDR, and it was "stable" but when their partner moved in with them or moved to the same town, things got really bad.

That makes some sense in the context of somebody with a huge fear of engulfment/enmeshment--when the physical distance which allows them to feel "safe" goes away, they kinda lost it.

There is no way to know that this woman you are seeing is like that... .but given how she behaved when she was coming to town to visit last time, it seems possible.

This very much has an addictive feel, right down to cravings and the flood of endporphins when I hear from her, and now kind of withdrawal. It's not fun, and I'm going to make changes. I've already changed my behavior and I do feel better.  But I also know she'll be back and I want to be ready, like I said

The best thing you can do is work on yourself and do what you can to shift your focus to yourself instead of her. Try to accept that she is who she is, and probably won't change much at all... .and work on making your responses more healthy.

As LnL said, you have to respect yourself first.

[obliv326]

It was one sided, but not always. It followed the classic BPD lines... .She was very attentive and fawning, then withdrew... .Came back a little... .Then retreated. The areas where it was almost always one sided were the BPD things... .Expressing emotions, communication, etc

And I am absolutely codependent. The point of the last couple days of inquiry is to get some answers so I can have some tools when she does eventually return. I don't think I have enough time to repair my self respect or change my lifetime of codependent habits. What I am looking for are some resources that I can use to help me until I can develop those skills.

I don't think her fear was enmeshment from what I understand. I think it's more afraid that she'll be " a disappointment." She said that the worst thing she could hear is "I'm not mad. I'm disappointed"... .And I said that to her when I got angry about not spending time together. This is another reason why I think she bailed, and was triggered by abandonment.  I think the willingness to maintain the status quo was the fact that I was the first person in her life to commit to really getting to know her. That's what has been suggested as a possibility, anyway.  It always seemed like she didn't know how to react, or would be distant, but didn't want to leave and just kept hanging on. I think why this is different is that she met a guy and feels emboldened, but it's not really a good match and I can't see it lasting. I don't think there's anything particularly special about the guy except he happened to be there and she wanted a replacement. Which is a long winded way of saying that I don't think enmeshment was the issue, but maybe I'm wrong.

Sorry if this sounds argumentative, but She didn't end things when I established a boundary. She ended things when I tried to start them again bc she has a temporary replacement on deck and is a little infatuated. Part of the reason I feel so crappy and angry is bc j jumped the gun and assumed she wasn't going to see me. If she does come back I'll at least make sure we have that wrapped up, and we make solid plans when she's in town. In fact, I'm thinking that when she does come back I'll make plans to go up there.

Given her financial dependence, I think she probably will restart things. I think she would anyway. The more I learn about BPD the more it looks like she really trusted me, in her weird way, and I didn't know how to recognize that.

And yes... .Getting her to respect me means respecting myself first. And pardon me for saying this, but that statement sounds a little dismissive. I'm very aware I need to be able to respect myself. I've tried all my life to find a way to break my codependency and fix what's wrong with me, and nothing has worked. Im trying again, and I'm doing a little better now, but I'm a long way to go. If you have advice here, I would really appreciate it. Sincerely. Just stating that I need to do something that I've spent my whole life trying to do is kind of rubbing it in, albeit unintentionally, I'm sure. I appreciate your words and your help, and I don't want to come off as rude.

[obliv326]

Patientandclear

Your words are appreciated, but let me say that I never engaged in this. Not at all. I never mentioned the money to her until the event that led to my giving the ultimatum... .If I gave to get anything, it was her trust and belief that I was there for her. I never brought it up. When I mentioned it here, it was more to demonstrate the fact that I had gone beyond the pale for this girl and how frustrated I was by what I saw as her lack of respect.  But I was very careful to never say or intimate that she owed me anything... .I never even mentioned when she didn't thank me

[livednlearned]

And I am absolutely codependent. The point of the last couple days of inquiry is to get some answers so I can have some tools when she does eventually return. I don't think I have enough time to repair my self respect or change my lifetime of codependent habits. What I am looking for are some resources that I can use to help me until I can develop those skills.

You may want to read up on the validating questions. What is particularly helpful about validation posed as questions is that it puts the onus of responsibility back on her to solve her own problems. People who are codependent tend to rescue/fix -- the emotional payoff feels great. You're worthy! Whereas what you're going for is to be a coach -- the emotional payoff is less. You have to stand by while someone flails. There is a middle way, and validating questions are part of that. This allows you to be caring and concerned, while also having the confidence in her that she can solve her own problems. She may feel afraid to solve her own problems, she also needs to do this for herself.

About respecting yourself... .is it that you know when you are behaving in ways that are not respectful to yourself, and aren't sure how to stop yourself from doing what you know is disrespectful? Or is it that you aren't sure what being respectful to yourself means (in practice)? I know they sound similar. One seems more about identifying your values, and the other seems more about how to assert boundaries (based on those values).

[obliv326]

I'm almost sure it's about asserting boundaries. This is what I was trying to do before our last argument. I had kind of done it with a couple things, but I had to have something to

Bargain with, which is why I made the ultimatum. I know what my values are, even if I can't always put it into words, and I don't know what to do to enforce my boundaries without feeling like I have to make a threat or worry that the relationship will end. I can do this in other relationships. I had a lunch date that cancelled on me yesterday, then wouldn't return my calls or texts and hasn't since. So I'm done.

But this girl scares me and I'm sure she knows it and it shows. A couple times I told her something bothered me and she made no effort to change until I was able to provide consequences, and then she started to respect that. The ultimatum was a way to try and enforce consequences. I don't know what else to use if the fact that I'm someone she cares about and what she's doing hurts, but that doesn't stop her. Getting mad doesn't stop her. Ultimatums did work a few times, and I only backed down on this one because I was worried that using it had triggered her.

That's a long winded way to explain that, but yes... .What can I use as a consequence of not respecting my boundaries, but also not triggering abandonment issues, AND not having her split me black for being a "meanie" when she gets in trouble?

[Grey Kitty]

That's a long winded way to explain that, but yes... .What can I use as a consequence of not respecting my boundaries, but also not triggering abandonment issues, AND not having her split me black for being a "meanie" when she gets in trouble?

Enforcing boundaries doesn't work quite that way.

The way they work is that she doesn't have to "respect your boundaries"... .but when she goes over them, you take action to protect yourself from the consequence of her crossing (or attempting to cross) them... .and she can still split you black or have abandonment issues. (Although the chance of that is reduced a bit)

In addition, the enforcement isn't about creating consequences (or punishment) for her--it is about protecting yourself.

This might be easier to explain in terms of the specific boundary she is crossing.

You can also read more about how to do it in these workshops here:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

[obliv326]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I guess my question is... .I initially believe I had set some pretty firm boundaries. If she did something that affected me, and she did that a lot, I would tell her, she would apologize, and would actually do what I asked. For example, I believe I deserve respect. We would make plans to chat at a certain time. She would show up 4 hours late. I would tell her that this was rude. If she showed up four hours late to meet a friend for a movie, how would they feel. She explained that she had severe OCD, which she does (I've seen the effects), told me that had happened, and that she would try to better. And she did.

Another time, she responded to something I wrote in a disrespectful manner. I told her I found it rude, and I didn't deserve to be treated like that. She agreed and changed the behavior.

And then, at some point, that approach, which I would think was fair and reasonable, started to change. I'd ask her a question or point out a behavior and she just wouldn't respond. This would get me frustrated, and I would express my displeasure. She then started accusing me of "flipping my lid" and saying that this "scared her"... .Even though I was perfectly calm. Then she just stopped responding to any attempt to define a boundary. I would have to chase her down and force a confrontation, and she would cry, and we'd reconcile. Then that stopped working... .And I had to threaten consequences, and finally make ultimatums.

Im so confused now. I guess all I can do is just walk away and wait for her to split white and come back, and the try to hit the reset button? Maybe something like "look, I'm not going to leave you, but if you value this relationship then I have to be able to trust you, and communicate effectively with you. And if you don't allow me those things, then you're telling me you don't respect the relationship and I'll have to protect myself" something like that? Because I just think that's going to turn me into a big meanie and she'll start shutting me down again. I'm really confused

[livednlearned]

 What I hear from your description is that, over time, she began to do things that hurt you, or bothered you, or disappointed you. When it happened, you did the right thing and communicated how you felt. She changed her behavior in response. Then, as to be expected in any relationship, other problems appeared. Rinse and repeat.

It's almost like a parent-child dynamic took hold, where she acted badly, you scolded her, then she complied. Did you ever give her positive reinforcement when she did something good? Like tell her how you appreciate when she calls at the pre-arranged time?

In the example you gave where she was 4 hours late, I can see why that would hurt your feelings. I have been in a relationship before where that kind of thing was chronic, and it really hurts. You can spend a lot of time waiting, ruminating, feeling hurt and angry.   Let's say she is going to be someone who is chronically late -- maybe this behavior never changes. You have a few choices in how you deal with this, maybe others that I'm missing. One choice is to get mad at her, in which case, she might rise to the occasion for a short while and then she's back to old habits. The other choice is to talk to her when you're in a good place, when the problem behavior is in a cooled off state. Put the issue in terms of you protecting yourself. "When people are late, it makes me feel ________. It'll probably happen between us, it's happened before and you saw how I got. I want you to know I'm going to take care of myself about this issue because I don't like how it makes me feel. If for some reason you're running late, I want you to know I'll wait 30 minutes, and then I'll go do other stuff. I can't guarantee I'll be around later if you call, although I'll always want to talk to you."

I'm not BPD, and I would have a hard time with the kind of dynamic where I am told to act this way or else.

You want to give her confidence that you know what you like, you can communicate how you feel, and you can take care of yourself, while at the same time reassuring her that you care about her, and understand that she does xyz, something you can deal with even if it causes you some distress.

That's why boundaries are not about controlling what someone else does. They are about protecting yourself, your feelings. And the consequences to violating these boundaries are usually ones that you feel you can live with, like waiting 30 minutes and then doing something else. It does require some acceptance on your part that she is someone who is chronically late. You are not likely going to change that behavior no matter how controlling you get, and definitely not without pushing her away.

[obliv326]

Thanks again for your response.

To answer your questions, generally, at the beginning of the relationship, it was done usually from a calm place. I was stern perhaps, but not really angry per se. When I noticed the same behavior, I would start to get more and more angry, and she would use that against me and accuse me of being "out of control".  I think as she began to devalue me she was less inclined to care about how I felt. I actually used that very mind if language you mention... .When you do this, I feel this, etc.

When she began to just ignore me when I would say these things, it's at this point that I really got off balance. I was made to feel as if my boundaries were somehow an annoyance, or that trying to have these conversations made me weak, and I was always looking for problems. Somehow, my boundaries became the problem, not her behavior. She actually said, after one argument, "why can't I just have something that's easy where I can be myself... ." Which I guess means she just gets to do what she wants and has no consequences and never has to communicate.

I also did use positive reinforcement. I would tell her that I appreciated it when she showed respect for my boundaries. The lateness stopped being an issue because we never really had solid plans. But the disappearing kept being a problem. I would tell her about it, she would agree that it was a problem and say she understood, and a couple days later she would do it again. Her obvious avoidance was a problem too... .If she knew I wanted to talk, then she would suddenly have plans, which would get extended, and her phone would die... .Or she would fall asleep at 7 wake up at 11 (right before she'd normally have to go to bed) send me a couple messages, and then, ostensibly, go back to sleep. There was always an excuse and therefore my trying to set that boundary was somehow unfair because she wasn't doing everything she could to avoid having an adukt conversation about a problem she caused. She just fell asleep. Or whatever.

[wanttoknowmore]

I dont think that it was you who created this chaos.  In the beginning (honeymoon phase), pwBPD is in a great mood, treats you like gold, says perfect things, behavior is consistent and amazing.

But after a few months, push-pull (zig zag) starts in her mind and behavior and speech gets erratic, unpredictable and irritating.  Non starts reacting to this inconsistent/erratic behavior as he is not used to this.

Non gets angry and frustrated... .says invalidating things or starts criticizing... .this leads to  worsening and pwBPD either starts raging outwardly OR goes in stony silence to push/punish the Non.

This ,sometimes leads to break up with pwBPD quickly finding a replacement or summons a past object to sooth herself... .some go to their family members/friends or just go lie in their bed for hours/days.

She comes out of this and feels worse and wants you to contact her .She feels shame so she will not call you but will wait for you to give a liitle cue . If you do (assuming she is out of dysregulation),

she will reply as if nothing happened and the r/s continues.

[obliv326]

Wanttoknowmore

Wow. This is exactly what happened! It's amazing that you can write a generalized pattern of behavior and it would fit so perfectly.

I can remember perfectly when some of these happened. We had just had a really great week connecting, and I thought that finally we had broken through and woukd get somewhere. That was the end of November. Since then, our relationship has been almost entirely texts, with 2-3 emails, 2 phone calls, and one dinner, accompanied by a friend. She was a terrible communicator anyway, but even worse on text. Almost never anything of substance, vanishing in the middle of a conversation with no warning for hours at a time. When I woukd try and enforce my boundaries, she just didn't respond. If I put 5 topics in a message, 4 of which were boundaries, she would respond to the one and just act as if the other stuff wasn't there. When I woukd ask why... .No response. I started to feel like I was the one out of line and that my questions were rude or making me appear weak. So I just stopped asking. If a problem popped up I just said nothing. And wouldn't you know it... .We started having problems because we misinterpreted each other's actions! Imagine that! This is compounded by the fact that I caught her lying multiple times but somehow I had interloped on her personal space by remembering something she said and then noting that it was different than what she said at a later time. Yes. She was acting offended that I didn't trust her when I had caught her lying many times before, and she was doing this in response to having been caught in a lie! And I was so confused at this point that I didn't even know how to respond, and I didn't even want to many times because I knew I'd just catch her in a bunch of lies! Ugh!

When she ended things, I do think the fact that she had met a guy emboldened her somewhat, but it is pretty clear that this was a case of her just lowering her standards and getting some attention as well as successfully managing to get revenge on me for walking away. The guy lives in the same city as me, and isn't going to be an option for replacement, really. I'm sure he won't be giving her financial support like me, and the two of them don't have the resources to fly back and forth. He was a convenient step, but certainly no long term relationship. It's pretty clear she knows this as well, because she has started to post very sexually suggestive posts on certain social media sites. Her solution seems to be to reach out for any kind of attention she can, and the easiest thing possible for someone like her is to degrade herself in a sexual way for attention. Of course, she's not going to get the kind of attention she needs, and I can't see this going well for her. It hasn't before, either, and she's gotten in some really bad situations, but of course never seems to learn. She was bragging that she spent grocery money on lingerie yesterday... .

I kind of wonder what's going to happen at the end of the month when she needs that grocery money? Hmmmmm

Anyway, thank you for your words. They helped me a lot.

when she comes back, if I want to assert a boundary, would a proper method for doing so will be to state it. Then say something like "this is important to me so I want you to read and acknowledge that you've heard me... ." I know that, since she has no honor, her word means nothing, but I care more about my self respect and I will at least be able to have that if I make her acknowledge that she knows what I have said and won't have any excuses as to why she chose to break a certain boundary except that she wanted to. If I have to confront her then, I can go right to being the bad guy for not letting her have her way.

Im so glad things conspired to make me attracted to someone like this. Yeah... .A whole month of being able to imagine that life is exactly the way you'd always hoped... .Better than that, even! Then you get to spend the rest of your life believing you've died and gone to hell.

[livednlearned]

She was bragging that she spent grocery money on lingerie yesterday... .

if I want to assert a boundary, would a proper method for doing so will be to state it. Then say something like "this is important to me so I want you to read and acknowledge that you've heard me... ." I know that, since she has no honor, her word means nothing, but I care more about my self respect and I will at least be able to have that if I make her acknowledge that she knows what I have said and won't have any excuses as to why she chose to break a certain boundary except that she wanted to. If I have to confront her then, I can go right to being the bad guy for not letting her have her way.

You're in a tenuous position with her at the moment, so explaining the boundary ahead of time probably won't get much traction, though you could try (casually bringing it up would be better than expecting her to understand the gravity of how you feel. Something like, "Hey, I'm rethinking the way I handle money, and won't be able to help out financially like I have in the past." No need to make the conversation more than it needs to be -- you are simply flagging for her that you have a new, strong boundary.

And then, you protect that boundary, hard! She will test the boundary, maybe trying what has worked in the past, or introducing some new tactics, so be prepared for that. Your response has to align with what you have said, otherwise there goes that self-respect, and her respect for your boundary (and probably you) will disappear too.

[obliv326]

Soo... .

Man.

It's been a freaking crazy couple weeks.

I had heard from her a week ago, and things were... .Okay? I told her I was doing fine. I was cool. I didn't show any negative emotion. I thought it was fine. I didn't hear from her for a few days.

She texted me again on Sunday. I was traveling and let it sit, then got back with her on Monday.

Things were a lot different. Better? There was some humor and lightness. There was talk of her coming back down here for a visit.

Then it got weird. She pulled back, and said that whatever was going on with me, she can't make our argument "unhappen", and that she's not over it. She said that she had asked for some space to deal with it, and she still needs space.

Given that I haven't initiated anything with her since the argument happened (that was 3/29) I'm pretty sure I've given her space.

The thing that strikes me about that comment is that... .There was no mention of "space" that night. She said that she didn't think we should restart our relationship because it was "for the best", she "didn't want to be someone that hurts me", etc. she said she didn't want to be with anyone, and asked me to "please go away", which I did... .I'm thinking that's an odd way to spin things. I mean, to me, it wasn't a request for space (that's actually what I would have asked for if she hadn't immediately started talking about ending things... .Or keeping them ended, I guess. But it certainly seems better than the alternative.

That was Monday. Yesterday we talked again. She stayed home from work bc she was sick. Things seemed to be going well. Then she mentioned that she an her roommates were low on food. My "white knight" kicked in, and I offered to send her some groceries.

She seemed... .Okay... .But as the day went on, she grew less open to the idea. She said she didn't want to be a charity case. I tried explaining to her that I didn't see her that way, but it didn't seem to help.

Then I remembered something I had seen in a video made by a girl with BPD. She was talking about how she didn't like to say thanks or to apologize bc she felt that it made her "beholden" to the other person. And it kind of clicked for me.

I told her that I was sorry for trying to hold over her head the fact that I had done her favors. I was wrong and I was sorry. I wouldn't do it again.

She had been silent for a couple hours, but then immediately responded with "I understand"


I told her theb that I felt like I understood how she processed things. I had not really gotten it until we had been apart for awhile, but I had studied and done lots of reading, and I saw now how I made her uncomfortable. For now on, I was going to take things less personally. I wouldn't force her into emotional situations. I would always try and see her side before I responded.

I said that I knew it would take time, but I didn't want to be someone who made her uncomfortable. Woukd she let me show her, starting now?

An immediate yes.

I asked if I could buy her groceries. Now she was fine with it, and things were smooth the rest of the night.

She texted me today, and we were having a nice little talk. Somehow, I made a sort of sexual joke, and her response wasn't so receptive. I stayed calm and just asked a couple questions, and she replied that she didn't want me to think that she had "some evil plan... ." I'm assuming she's responding to the way I responded about what happened after we broke up.

I simply said that I didn't ever think that. That I always thought we had good chemistry in that area and it was part of who we were. I didn't want her to ever think she couldn't talk to me about something, that included. She didn't respond to that.

So I apologized once more. I told her that, kind of like I was saying last night, I didn't always understand her thought process and would take things personally that she didn't intend as such. It was a mistake and that I'd made a lot of them but I felt like I had a better understanding of who she was now.

She finally responded to that by saying "I understand. Sorry, bed time"

I wrote back and said that I understood, and that I needed to go to bed too (I started a new job today, also) That she didn't need to apologize, and everything was fine. And to sleep tight.

Now, I'm guessing she didn't want to get into the sexual talk bc she prob doesn't trust me with it, and bc it has caused some pretty unpleasant clashes in the past. But I feel like what I did, trying to get across the point that I didn't see her point of view and I'm going to do my best to do that from now on, is a good thing? I don't want to force an "emotional" point but I figure if it's all me and I don't make her engage, that apologies are fair game?

I'm guessing there might be some "unpacking" of some issues soon... .Kind of like the past couple days. Other than stay calm, validate her POV, listen and try to keep things light, is there anything else that I should do? I was thinking about telling her to let me know if a topic bothered her. I'm really just trying to help us fix things, and it's hard for me to know if that's the case but I don't want her having any uncomfortable exchanges with me. So feel free to let me know and I'll just drop it. Or does that put too much of the onus on her to act and make her uncomfortable anyway? I don't know.

But I've used a lot if the things I've found out here, and she seems to at least want me around. I am prepping for that first time she pushes a boundary, but I'm prepared to say that I can't accept that behavior. I really have no intention of leaving her but at the same time she needs to respect my beliefs and boundaries. And that I'm going to go for the time being bc I don't want to make anything worse, but I want her to understand that while I love her very much, I have to love me first. Otherwise I'm no good to her or anyone else. And that what has happened is something that really bothers me.

Does this entire post sound like a good course of action?

[livednlearned]

Hi oblivian,

Sounds like some positive signs 

The groceries issue sounds like a rich example to learn from. When she says that she and her roommate are getting low on groceries, why not ask her a validating question. "Is there anything you would like me to do?" Let her be responsible for asking, let her be vulnerable and state exactly what she wants. If she is not ready to ask, or if she wants only validation, that's on her. Someone with engulfment issues will respond better when options are presented as choices.

I'm also wondering about the apologies. "I promise to not make you uncomfortable," probably set you up for "I'm sorry I made you uncomfortable." Over and over. It seems like over promising something not realistic. Especially because BPD is feelings driven. How can you not make her uncomfortable if she is feeling uncomfortable? It sets you up to appease her over something she has not explicitly asked you to do (although she may like the offer, who wouldn't!)

When you say you are prepping for the first time she violates a boundary, what do you mean by that? What boundary? How will you respond?

[obliv326]

As for the groceries, I know from experience that she won't ever ask me for anything. She'll present an issue and let me know she needs some help, but she told me she had a problem coming out and asking for help. I guess that makes sense, since she doesn't want to feel beholden to anyone or like she owes people favors?

As for the apologies, I think I needed to say that bc it de-escalated her level of discomfort and made her okay with the way it was framed... .And it's true... .I did take things personally. Granted, a lot of what she did was messed up in a normal relationship. I'm not sure how much malice was intended, although I do think I was split black at one point.

Now, I think she's splitting me back white. I'm trying to completely earn her trust back. But the fact that she changed her tune about the "end" of the relationship and saying it was "space" is pretty telling, I think.

I tried to outline how I would respond to the boundary thing toward the end of my last message. Does it sound doable?

[nrobinson]

My husband thinks my son and I are going to attack him, I force our son to attack him, his parents got a protection order against me so he can visit them., and when I could not be talked into a divorce they convinced him, he thinks it was his idea.and on and on am I crazy ?  What ?