Stuck

[IntoTheWind]

Moving to acceptance of the relationship seems impossible. No goodbye at all is almost too ugly to look at, it stimulates bitterness, grief, causes me to ruminate on every little confusing thing that happened as a way of formulating my own ending. It's an endless loop. The looping is easier to deal with now, but it's still there.

I can't frame this in a way that I can neatly put it away. I've had two other relationships, 3 years and 4 years. Ages 20-27. I'm 28 now and was trying to settle down and clear about it. Those other relationships ended because our lives were headed in different directions. Acceptance of those breakups lead to me looking back fondly, being thankful for the time I had with them, positive feelings; I know I could reach out to either of those people and they'd have my back if I really needed them (and I theirs).

I've tried to apply that same reasoning to my ex, looking back fondly; but thinking about any happy or positive memory cripples me because the immediate afterthought is how awful other parts of it were, the contrast between the good and bad is so stark. It's perpetual and exhausting.

The only way out seems to be reaching a level of emotional maturity I don't have access to yet, an epiphany that puts it into perspective. I've looked into philosophy, stoicism, Buddhism, woo woo ways that somehow detach me from my normal thought patterns. It just feels like temporary escapism/thought experiments.

I remember being in shock that people were still grieving these relationships for years after short amounts of time, but I do understand how that can happen now.

If I could go back I would 100% not repeat. I brought this onto myself by ignoring flags and participating in the game but the result is beyond what I thought could happen. It's getting in the way of my life. I dreamt about it last night which had made for a great Friday  

Looking for advice, mantras, just anything that can give me something to hold onto. Is there ever a time you can look back at this without emotion? Can future partners overwrite the damage?


 

[Ad Meliora]

I can't frame this in a way that I can neatly put it away. I've had two other relationships, 3 years and 4 years. Ages 20-27. I'm 28 now and was trying to settle down and clear about it. Those other relationships ended because our lives were headed in different directions. Acceptance of those breakups lead to me looking back fondly, being thankful for the time I had with them, positive feelings; I know I could reach out to either of those people and they'd have my back if I really needed them (and I theirs).

I don't have any catchy mantras for you IntoTW.  I can say this, 28 can be a tough age, an age of transition of true coming into adulthood.  At least that's what the photographer told me as she was taking pictures at my wedding when I was that age.  Marrying my college sweetheart at the time, for all the wrong reasons.   I have 20 more years on you and that many more years of healthy relationships to point to.  Okay, relatively healthy, let's say.  You see what one year with someone with BPD has done and how it has affected my outlook.  I think there's a BPD for everybody, just chance if you'll encounter them.  Well, you and I did.

I would use those relatively healthy relationships as a springboard forward and a reminder that you can be a whole and completely functioning adult in a functioning relationship.  It's a setback, and not something that can probably be "Mantra-ed" around. It's hear now, we have to face it.  Yes our exes were the devil but what about the demon they summoned in us?  Gotta deal, gotta get it in check and erased for good.  Who you gonna call?  Ghostbusters?

You know what makes me feel good?  I find someone I know I can get them to pee their pants if I tell the right joke and so I do what I can to make them belly laugh and run to the bathroom.  They may hate me for it, but they laugh all the way to the bathroom...   That's a IntoTW specific suggestion.

[IntoTheWind]

I would use those relatively healthy relationships as a springboard forward and a reminder that you can be a whole and completely functioning adult in a functioning relationship.  It's a setback, and not something that can probably be "Mantra-ed" around. It's hear now, we have to face it.  Yes our exes were the devil but what about the demon they summoned in us?  Gotta deal, gotta get it in check and erased for good.  Who you gonna call?  Ghostbusters?

You know what makes me feel good?  I find someone I know I can get them to pee their pants if I tell the right joke and so I do what I can to make them belly laugh and run to the bathroom.  They may hate me for it, but they laugh all the way to the bathroom...   That's a IntoTW specific suggestion.

Haha thanks Ad, you always make me laugh.

I wanted to do something spiteful today, I wanted to inform her friend about some of the things she had me hide about them being cheated on. I'm glad I didn't. I know I'd feel terrible immediately after, and secondly that group of friends she has is all she's got, I'm not sure what she'd do without them. I know what it's like for her when she's upset. I've seen what happens when a friend doesn't like her LinkedIn post so if I did that it'd be nuclear. It'd be malignant and unfair of me to do that. It bothers me that I even had the idea in the first place. for me I guess.

This was one of the first times I felt a deep sense of pity for her rather than disappointment and resentment. There's no way that she really understands how much she hurt me, and she definitely doesn't have the skills to make it right. I had the realization that even though this tipped my world upside down, it's almost selfish to personalize the dysfunction, I am making her behaviour about me. It was never about me; I was just there. Anyone else that willingly put themselves in her path would've been hurt too, every indicator that something was badly wrong was there from the start. We lived out the doll house fantasy there for a while but it didn't stick; I'm the only serious boyfriend she's had. She's stuck in this cycle, it's her life. At least I know I tried my hardest and was there when she needed me.

Pity is new. I don't like it, but it's better than anguish I guess  

[once removed]

The only way out seems to be reaching a level of emotional maturity I don't have access to yet

i often say that the concept that "time heals all wounds" is nonsense. it is manifestly untrue. if it were true, our exes would be cured. if it were true, some of us wouldnt struggle for years, if not forever.

of course, there is truth in it.

one thing that time does is dull the pain. eventually, lifes routines break up some of the more immediate, raw, painful thoughts and reactions to them. provided we dont sweep them under the rug, some of those more painful, yet challenging things, can be easier to revisit and explore down the road. my advice would be to take those things that challenge you the most, cause you the most pain, and try to mentally set them aside, and make a mental note to revisit them later.

one thing that we presumably do with our time is gain experience, in a literal sense. we have more experiences. those things can put past experiences in perspective.

some amount of time + experience is generally necessary to make the discoveries that you can use to grow, and to take those lessons into future relationships. one needs some success and some failure, coupled with their new found knowledge to put them into perspective, in order to take better stock.

after my relationship, it was obvious to me i had some issues. i didnt have a broader context or understanding to put them in. two more disastrous, failed relationships, a broader framework of understanding, and the opportunity to overcome my tendency to cope with the hurt by casting the blame off on the other person, and things started to click.

years later, i came to different/better terms with the relationship that led me here. my narrative of what happened looks very different than it did at the time, or even a year or two after that.

Is there ever a time you can look back at this without emotion?

yes.

like a lot of us here, my ex was lining up another relationship which she left me for, and im also certain that she cheated, possibly multiple times. it was all a huge blow, as it reasonably would be for anyone.

at the time, some of my loved ones very gently and tactfully tried to remind me that it really wasnt all that shocking a thing. i had emotionally abandoned the relationship for months before any of that (they had warned me at the time). thats not to excuse what she did. what she did was weak, not to mention incredibly hurtful. the mature thing for her to do would have been to see the writing on the wall and make the emotionally challenging decision to grieve and end the relationship. and of course, that would have been the emotionally mature thing for me to do, as well. we were both too weak to do it, so we each coped how we did.

back then the suggestion (that i had anything to do with it) would send me into a tailspin and cause me to ruminate for hours, and the only solace i could seem to find (it never lasted, and i sought out more and more of it) was that all of this was on her and that it was inevitable, that there was nothing i could have done differently (the fact that i could have done things differently is not to say i could have made the relationship work. our differences were too significant, and we were not meant to be.)

today (over ten years later), its just like "well, duh". while the relationship remains my most significant adult relationship, by far, and while i find i can still learn some lessons from it, its not really any different than looking back on say, a middle school or high school relationship, on an emotional level. we were kids, and its ancient history.  there is no pain attached to any thought i have of her.

so yes. you can detach from the wounds and reach freedom.

Can future partners overwrite the damage?

i would be very careful with seeing future relationships, or other people, as a/the way to heal. another person cant "fix" us. that is, in large part, what a lot of us were trying to do in the relationship that brought us here, and its what our exes were trying to do as well. its just that nobody knew that at the time.

it is certainly true that every relationship (of all kinds) is an opportunity to grow, in our capacity to love, in our ability to see ourselves and others. future relationships can and will be a healing experience.

those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Moving to acceptance of the relationship seems impossible

we dont grow overnight. keep reaching. youll get there 

[jaded7]

IntoTheWind

Just wanted to chime in here to say I understand. The ruminating and the suffering is, also, totally unlike anything I have ever experienced. Yes, I've had breakups from long relationships before...but the pain passed relatively quickly, some longer than others, but this...this

1.5 years of constant ruminating and going over and over and over the completely baffling situations and accusations (that weren't true), very often having 'discussions' with her in my head trying to explain- that's not what happened, that's not what you said, that's now what I did, that's not what I was thinking, but you said you'd ______, I'm not a _______ (sh*tty driver, sh*tty businessman, etc. etc).

Just this morning, I'm writing out pages and pages in a journal trying to make sense of certain situations, to see if I'm actually crazy or these things did happen AND they do not make sense.

"No goodbye is almost too impossible to look at" - IntoTheWind

I have the same issue. No closure. Just one 40 minute phone call of accusations, yelling, lies about what I did, lies about what she did, lies about what I said, things I failed at and name calling, shaming words and shaming tone.

I remained calm. I told her "I love you and sometimes when we get angry it's because we don't feel seen, I see you and love you"...slight pause and more accusations and name calling.

This is a person I loved. I was integrated into her family, spent lots of time with her son as a father figure, was loved by her Mom and Dad and sister and friends. That's all gone, no closure, and that last phone call.

I would like to just share this with you because I am in the same place as you. And it's been a long journey back to myself. I internalized the things she said and called me, internalized the sense of letting her down (which I have, at times, absolutely hated myself for...even though it's not true and I was put in so many 'tests' and no-win situations that I didn't even understand).

I for one think you have a great deal of emotional maturity. You show insight and self-awareness, you seem to have a pure heart, you express yourself so well. You even feel bad for having a little pity for your ex. You have empathy.

I think most of us can identify with the feelings you're having.

"The only way out seems to be...an epiphany"- IntoTheWind

That's exactly, I think, why I have spent untold hours reading sites on BPD, books on BPD, about narcissism, watching videos. I'm looking for the epiphany that will make me finally go

"AHA...THIS wasn't my FAULT" "There was nothing I could do differently"

It's shame, at least in my case. I know I don't deserve to take on this shame, but I do nonetheless. I also know that in my FOO I was shamed and blamed, constantly. I also know that my sexual abuse as a child makes me very sensitive to shaming and blaming myself.

[IntoTheWind]

IntoTheWind

It's shame, at least in my case. I know I don't deserve to take on this shame, but I do nonetheless. I also know that in my FOO I was shamed and blamed, constantly. I also know that my sexual abuse as a child makes me very sensitive to shaming and blaming myself.

Hey Rob, I’m glad you’ve got to this conclusion. That’s a great realization, that the emotions here may be disproportionate due to traumas surrounding that feeling.

[IntoTheWind]

IntoTheWind

It's shame, at least in my case. I know I don't deserve to take on this shame, but I do nonetheless. I also know that in my FOO I was shamed and blamed, constantly. I also know that my sexual abuse as a child makes me very sensitive to shaming and blaming myself.

Ironically I’ve just had a conversation with my mother about this situation and she ended up shouting some things about how I have apparently died and that I’m damaged for life because “that b**** has killed me”. I guess I’m uncovering some FOO issues myself. I tried to get her to confront how horrible it was to say that I wanted an apology but there’s no reasoning once it gets like that, extreme rage and blame shifting.

You’re not crazy. Being confused isn’t crazy. Trying to understand your confusion isn’t crazy either; it’s crazy-making because things just don’t add up and that’s the root of all of it. Things do not make sense and that’s what you’re left with. If I think of every situation, there’s a way I could’ve handled it better, the summation of all of these “better” ways of handling things is a completely different person with far more patience than I could ever have, a placid, unopinionated, docile, constantly happy-go-lucky person that doesn’t care about being invalidated or not having certain needs met. Would a relationship with that person have lasted longer? Probably not, they’d have got bored. Without the toxic background noise there wouldn’t have been a relationship.

The problem I have at the moment that there ARE things that were definitely wrong of me, that I regret (and tried to resolve), that I did not want to happen but I felt at my wits end. Those things particularly deeply shame me, because there are no two ways about it. I had those things held over my head and was told I was unforgiven the entire time. The only thing that gets me through that is remembering that regardless of what I said the feelings I felt at the time were justified regardless of my actions, and that how she made me feel is unacceptable regardless of what I said in return. Also, if it were the other way around I would’ve put extensive effort into understanding what happened for her to get upset in the first place, and how to prevent it again, like I did many times before that. The massive discrepancy in emotional support is just unacceptable. I think if I didn’t feel like I “needed her”, I would’ve broken up with her several times during the relationship.

[jaded7]

I tried to get her to confront how horrible it was to say that I wanted an apology but there’s no reasoning once it gets like that, extreme rage and blame shifting.
 

You just described the so-called 'fights' with my ex. They were not fights, not in any sense of the word. They were always attacks on me and my character, nearly always out of left field, almost always 'stories' about me not based in reality ( I even once told her, kindly and gently, "you seem to have stories in your head about me that aren't true and you react to those stories"...got nowhere with that) and consisted of me defending myself against untruths. Very, very often sudden explosions of anger to something I said that was meant to be kind and thoughtful! Like

• Hey honey, what time is your family getting in? I'll pick them up at the airport so they don't have to take the train our Uber- "I've told you you're a sh*tty driver and I'm never riding with you again and no member of my family is ever riding with you! When you say this it makes me feel like you don't listen to me!"

• Hi honey, I know you keep a list of food you like to bring camping, can you send me that list and I'll run to the store to get it for us? "You don't want to go shopping, you're just trying to cover your *ss!. Your worthless in a grocery store and it will just take me longer to fix it anyway!"
  Ummm. Ok, well, how about I come over and take you to the store so you can pick out the right stuff and I'll pay for it then? "You just want to see me!"
  - She had already gone to the store 3 days earlier, and didn't ask me to, didn't tell me, didn't share that she'd like me to, didn't mention it to me.

• After watching a movie at my home, on a weekend she'd committed to staying over at my place (on our shared google calendar she shamed me into making for the summer since I "ruined an entire summer by cancelling and forgetting plans we made" -not true at all- and "I'm a child for not keeping a google calendar", and "I don't prioritize our relationship"?- it was the most important thing in my life to me), she tells me she's going home. I ask why? It's on the calendar we made? Huge fight and anger because I asked her why she's going home when she made me make the calendar and shamed me for 'missing' events the previous summer.

These are not fights. This is anger and control and defensiveness and deflection and me trying to make sense of it, defend myself, point out the obvious.

I think your little interaction with your Mom has a lot to show you. You were brought up in a house with that person, that person showed you how you deserve to be loved and heard.

[IntoTheWind]

These are not fights. This is anger and control and defensiveness and deflection and me trying to make sense of it, defend myself, point out the obvious.

Cling to all of these things as absolutely undeniable proof of something you do not deserve.

My ex was mostly quiet bpd and didn’t rage at me, she would lock herself in rooms and cupboards or go behind a wall and need to go home, stomp off like a toddler. She’d also have a lot of “storms” and need me to pull her out of them over things other people have done/said. Hot/cold was common and by the end the nasty yet “innocent” comments/behaviours started such as tsking bad photos of me and leaving them on my phone to see; I spent ages thinking about whether those things were innocent or hurtful, or if the pictures were intentionally there to hurt me etc. she even bit me “down there” by “accident” and I didn’t know if it was on purpose.

I almost wish she’d gone on a verbal tyrade against me so I could 100% point to an event where I’m certain it was really happening.

Do I think this would’ve helped me feel better about the breakup? Probably not, I’d probably still blame myself for somehow triggering her.

You’re right about the Mum thing. We argued a lot growing up and I was always made to feel that somehow I’m interpreting it wrong or it’s for my own good. Probably why I’m so unsure if these things were real and bad.

[jaded7]

Cling to all of these things as absolutely undeniable proof of something you do not deserve.

I almost wish she’d gone on a verbal tyrade against me so I could 100% point to an event where I’m certain it was really happening.

Do I think this would’ve helped me feel better about the breakup? Probably not, I’d probably still blame myself for somehow triggering her.

You’re right about the Mum thing. We argued a lot growing up and I was always made to feel that somehow I’m interpreting it wrong or it’s for my own good. Probably why I’m so unsure if these things were real and bad.

You know, the verbal tirades (and that's not even close to all of them, or the constant little put-downs, passive aggressive comments, ghosting, evading, leaving me out of things with friends and holidays) are real, I know them. And I still say, I'm not sure if I'm wrong or not, if I'm bad or not.

So I go to...I wish she would have hit me over the head with a vase or something, THEN I could point to something that is obvious and clear. She did violently pull off a road in the middle of nowhere in in the dark and rain (in my car no less) and threaten to make me walk back (in an area I didn't know), she knocked my arm away when I tried to put it around her when she came to bed one night (twice), and she raged at me numerous times, one time pointing a finger in my face with a horrible face of absolute anger.

Still, those aren't enough to convince me something's wrong here. So you see, these things- at least for me- are not enough to let go of the self blame.

I too spent my entire childhood in fights and tension with my mother, with her then reporting me to my dad at the end of the day when he got home, where he would explode at me, sometimes violently, one time dragging me down the hall by my neck.

I wanted to be seen and heard by her- my ex and my mom. I wanted to be loved for who I am. I wanted to be understood. When she told me she loved me, I assumed (hoped) that meant she accepted me and wanted to support me and valued me, like I did her. No.

I know for me, this comes down to my FOO issues around my mom, and hoping, hoping someone would love me, trusting them when they said they did. I think you are right about your mom and would encourage you to look at that further. I suspect that is the root of your (my) confusion and our inability to really make any sense of all of this.

These things are deeply seated, they are our first frameworks for what love looks like, they influence our attachment styles, they make us confused when we are mistreated in adulthood by a person who is supposed to love us.

[IntoTheWind]

You know, the verbal tirades (and that's not even close to all of them, or the constant little put-downs, passive aggressive comments, ghosting, evading, leaving me out of things with friends and holidays) are real, I know them. And I still say, I'm not sure if I'm wrong or not, if I'm bad or not.

So I go to...I wish she would have hit me over the head with a vase or something, THEN I could point to something that is obvious and clear. She did violently pull off a road in the middle of nowhere in in the dark and rain (in my car no less) and threaten to make me walk back (in an area I didn't know), she knocked my arm away when I tried to put it around her when she came to bed one night (twice), and she raged at me numerous times, one time pointing a finger in my face with a horrible face of absolute anger.

This is 100% how I would feel too. I just remembered that my gf did hit me in the face, but it was a "play fight" where she was on top of me and cracked me in the jaw pretty hard. I say play fight but only she was taking part. I pushed her off me then she started pointing at me and chanting "you hit me you hit me" within earshot of her room mates, I remember telling her that she's scaring me. Then the next day started twisting my fingers, cracking my knuckles, punching me in the arm (not hard, enough to push my buttons, I assume she wanted me to snap?) and she stopped straight away when I said "I will not be in a physically abusive relationship". She then played out this exact same scenario again, same hit to the jaw, same reaction where she'd put her hands over her face like "oh my god sorry". But this time I left her to it, I didn't want to respond in any way that would prolong the punishment from the argument we'd had a couple of weeks prior so I just looked to the side and waited for it to pass. There was nothing I felt that I could do "no win" as you said. Even with THAT I still doubt myself. I know this isn't normal in a relationship, I guess this flawed thinking was always inside of me and but nobody decided to take advantage of it yet.

I too spent my entire childhood in fights and tension with my mother, with her then reporting me to my dad at the end of the day when he got home, where he would explode at me, sometimes violently, one time dragging me down the hall by my neck.

I had this but without the father coming home to take it out on me. My mother would just leave me to think about "what I'd done". I remember she threw a knife at the door out of anger once; "It was never going to hit you", "it was way above your head" she said at the time. I recall seeing the door had a huge chunk missing out of it. I mentioned this to her today and she just told me "you asked for a hamster so many times that week" - holy   .

I wanted to be seen and heard by her- my ex and my mom. I wanted to be loved for who I am. I wanted to be understood. When she told me she loved me, I assumed (hoped) that meant she accepted me and wanted to support me and valued me, like I did her. No.

100% this for me too.

I know for me, this comes down to my FOO issues around my mom, and hoping, hoping someone would love me, trusting them when they said they did. I think you are right about your mom and would encourage you to look at that further. I suspect that is the root of your (my) confusion and our inability to really make any sense of all of this.

These things are deeply seated, they are our first frameworks for what love looks like, they influence our attachment styles, they make us confused when we are mistreated in adulthood by a person who is supposed to love us.

All of this is so gross. When I compare my ex to my mum it's a similar dynamic except my mum would shout and get aggressive and my ex would get distant and stop communicating, same guilt tripping, and the same copious amounts of self blame and wanting to fix it and get it right. Same circular arguments. My ex is like mum-lite. There are some huge differences between the two, but I see how the training from my childhood has a huge part to play in this particular relationship. I kept it going for way too long because I enabled it. I can see now that this dynamic I had was just a numbers game, I just happened to find someone "just wrong" for me. I was primed for this relationship and have a lot of work to do. This was never ever going to change, just like my Mum hasn't. That's the first time I've said that and fully believed it. I'm able to apply that gross feeling I get from my mothers reactions to my ex now, which is helpful.

[IntoTheWind]

Maybe with the right person with the right boundaries and ways of “managing” her. We could’ve lasted. But looking back, I don’t know what I could’ve done differently to make it last AND be a happy relationship. Normal disagreements or situations lead to ridiculous, exhausting drama. Browsing belts for her birthday at a designer shop, the one the shopkeeper pulled out didn’t fit her, she has a meltdown because she feels fat (she wasn’t) but anyway. She’s now in meltdown mode, distant, stomping again, sulking, day ruined. She falls asleep in the car on the way home; then she’s mad because I wanted to go home separately to relax after another strenuous day. I was so mad at this point I left her in a hot car while I picked up a coffee for respite (expressing how this situation bothered me would've just made it worse). Very healthy. It was a full time job and she was both the employer and corrupt HR department.

The underlying feelings of shame and guilt, tendency to  ruminate and “fix” are 100% FOO related for me, I can start to separate that as a ME issue now and work on it.

But stories like the above were a weekly occurrence.Those WERE NOT ME, and were not my responsibility to “fix”. She was 25 but it feels like I’m describing a teenager. I’m embarrassed when I talk about these moments in retrospect but when you’re “in it” it’s different.

I hope anyone who’s monitoring this thread can arrive at similar discoveries as this feels like major progress.

[jaded7]

The underlying feelings of shame and guilt, tendency to  ruminate and “fix” are 100% FOO related for me, I can start to separate that as a ME issue now and work on it.

But stories like the above were a weekly occurrence.Those WERE NOT ME, and were not my responsibility to “fix”. She was 25 but it feels like I’m describing a teenager. I’m embarrassed when I talk about these moments in retrospect but when you’re “in it” it’s different.

I hope anyone who’s monitoring this thread can arrive at similar discoveries as this feels like major progress.

Managing 'her'. Mostly it was about managing her stories of me, then when she'd get mad try to figure out what happened. I did the very thing this board has taught me not to do, JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain...very little of arguing per se). I honestly believed if she just understood the truth then she wouldn't be upset, she'd see that I loved her, would see I didn't do anything 'wrong'. As this board has taught me, that just prolongs and deepens the dysfunction.

And yes, it felt like I was intreracting with someone who was using a child's reasoning. The responses were just so bizarre and completely unrelated to reality, then she'd insert a lie that was so transparent that it was almost comical. Very confusing.

I do hope that others reading this will perhaps get some insight into possible FOO issues. My therapist has, from the beginning told me that my suffering and pain- and it was really bad some days, I won't be more explicit because I don't want to trigger anyone- are developmental issues.

I have had a hard time understanding that, mostly because of the overwhelming pain and PTSD that has resulted- mostly just trying to survive. But it is starting to sink in. She was to an almost scary degree of the same personality type as my mom- tense, unaffectionate, critical and dismissive. I worried about her, tried to make her feel good and happy, was so, so supportive of her and ready to to anything for her, at any time.

The other thread on here, about the Vulnerable Child schema, is very much where my mind is heading these days. I recommend those of you who this thread resonates with take a look at it.