How do I start really believing that I deserve more?

[Seb]

Hi all,

I haven't really posted much on PI - I've sort of stuck around L3 for a while now, probably for too long.

I've been seeing a therapist and its helping, but I wondered if you could help me with this.

I have real trouble being angry with my exgf. I can't seem to muster any anger towards her. I want to heal and move on, but I feel like I'm still stuck at the bit where I still blame myself, and believe all of her projections about me on some level. Every time I start to think that I should be angry for the way she treated me, I feel tremendous shame and guilt and really start to beat myself up about the way this relationship ended.

I can try and be factual and objective, and look at what happened: I was 'straight', she was gay and closeted. She pursued me for months and months, literally forcing her way in to my life (verged on sexual assault actually), got me to come out to my family, I quit my job and applied to move to where her job was, and put my apartment up for rent. I was doing everything in my power to be there for her and to make us work, and right before the move, and right before it was her turn to tell her family, she dumps me and completely cuts me out of her life. I haven't heard a word from her in 9/10 months.

I still can't get over the level of cruelty in all this. I know she felt hugely guilty last time I saw her, and she cried and told me she knew I thought she was a "wimp".  She even told me that she would have found it easier if I'd been angry with her (because I wasn't). Looking back now I really wish if given her a piece of my mind - I wish I'd stood up for myself, along the lines of how dare you do this to me, after everything I've done for you. But I couldn't muster it then and I really struggle with this now.

I don't like being angry, but I really see this as key to helping me feel and believe that I deserve better than this. I know I do, I'm a kind person, and loyal and trustworthy, and have many more positive attributes than my ex - she always said this herself, and that I was out of her league - but how do I really believe it, deep down. I can't seem to get to that point yet.

I also think I have a hard time struggling to accept her illness. I think this ties in with my lack of anger towards her - what if it was all my fault and I drove her crazy like she said I did? She's certainly acted like I'm the most evil person in the world since she dumped me. The sheer speed with which I went from being dream girl to devil incarnate (for no apparent reason) is mind-boggling. I was well and truly dropped on my head with this one - one day she was there and the next she disappeared in to thin air.

I'm hoping some wise heads on PI can help me move on a little. Thanks 

[myself]

Hi Seb.

One less angry person in the world is fine with me!

You aren't responsible for your ex's actions or behaviors, and whatever illness or traits she may possibly have would not have been caused by you. You didn't 'drive her crazy'. If that's where she wound up, she was either already there or her lack of self discipline took her there.

You don't need anger to move on, or to live a better life. It may come, in time, or not. It's not a piece of the puzzle that absolutely has to be there. This is your own unique process, getting through this. My T said everyone has their different levels of things like happiness, stress, anger, etc. It's how to best deal with what's going on that's most important. You're one of the ones who choose to face your own healing. When you look honestly at yourself, do you see the kind, loyal, trustworthy, positive person you described here? Perhaps you're not angry with her because you *are* kind, loyal, positive!

You can believe (in Yourself) because you are already living it. You deserve You.

It's who you are!

[Suzn]

Seb anger can be a catalyst for growth. Where do you think feeling ashamed and guilty come from, was there a time you remember when you felt this way before? Anger is a healthy emotion when it's appropriate and you have a right to all your emotions.

[Grey Kitty]

I have real trouble being angry with my exgf. I can't seem to muster any anger towards her. I want to heal and move on, but I feel like I'm still stuck at the bit where I still blame myself, and believe all of her projections about me on some level. Every time I start to think that I should be angry for the way she treated me, I feel tremendous shame and guilt and really start to beat myself up about the way this relationship ended.

I believe that anger is a natural feeling to have at times. I don't think that anger itself is either good or bad--any more than gravity is good or bad. Both are simply forces that can be used in a wide variety of ways. So if you aren't feeling anger, accept that as what you are feeling. Remember--feelings are never wrong.

I think you will find it more productive to look at the guilt and shame you ARE feeling.

Can you elaborate more on the feelings you do have?

[sad but wiser]

Hi Seb!  Could it be that she is not the source of your self-esteem problems?  If that is the case, it would explain why you are stuck.  This "I deserve more" thing is a problem for me too.

[laelle]

I deserve better than this. I know I do, I'm a kind person, and loyal and trustworthy

I think it takes believing what you just said.  If believing that makes you angry or sad or intensely happy, its all ok.

Be kind to yourself.  You have been through so much.  How would you support a loved one who has gone through what you have?

You are judging yourself.  There is no judgement... .  feel as you feel.

[Seb]

  Thank you all for your replies, it really means a lot to me.

You aren't responsible for your ex's actions or behaviors, and whatever illness or traits she may possibly have would not have been caused by you. You didn't 'drive her crazy'. If that's where she wound up, she was either already there or her lack of self discipline took her there.

You don't need anger to move on, or to live a better life. It may come, in time, or not. It's not a piece of the puzzle that absolutely has to be there. This is your own unique process, getting through this. My T said everyone has their different levels of things like happiness, stress, anger, etc. It's how to best deal with what's going on that's most important. You're one of the ones who choose to face your own healing. When you look honestly at yourself, do you see the kind, loyal, trustworthy, positive person you described here? Perhaps you're not angry with her because you *are* kind, loyal, positive!

Thank you for this. I really feel that sometimes I'm too nice, and that me not being angry shows exactly what a pushover I am. I want to move on and forgive her. I think I see a girl who is so messed up, and full of self-loathing, and was more than happy to take and take from me, until she almost destroyed me. And she's the one who's called the shots, making me out to be the bad guy. People can't seem to get their head around it all, wondering how she lives with herself treating people like that. My best friend despises her, and called her pond scum the other day. Immediately I jumped to her defence. I said she wasn't pond scum, she was just scared and not very well. He couldn't understand it. He kept telling me I was too nice, that I should be angry for what she put me through. Thank you for your words, they mean a lot to me. I guess I have a strong capacity to forgive, and I'm sure that's a good thing in the long run.

Seb anger can be a catalyst for growth. Where do you think feeling ashamed and guilty come from, was there a time you remember when you felt this way before? Anger is a healthy emotion when it's appropriate and you have a right to all your emotions.

I really don't know. I've thought long and hard about this. I can't pinpoint exactly feeling this way before, but I can relate many of these feelings I have back to my father, and the hatred I had for him growing up. I'm pretty sure he's NPD, and there are many aspects of my relationship that I see as a reflection of my parents relationship. My father was rageful, cheating, controlling, cruel and violent... .   and yet there were times when he was the opposite, very remorseful, pathetic and crying as if he were a child. It used to make me feel very unsafe and unsure of who he was. One day he was violent with myself and my mum, the next he was telling everyone how amazing he was and we just had to smile and pretend we were this perfect family. It has definitely given me some issues. I think this is the reason why I didn't run for the hills when my ex came in to my life. I thought I could fix her. Her issues and her self-loathing were familiar to me. So I locked in, and felt that I had met my soulmate. My parents marriage was loveless. I never saw a healthy relationship model. I just saw a father who cheated constantly, then fought terribly in front of us, but stayed together. I think it gave me many issues that this r/s has subsequently exposed.

I went through a long period in my teens where my mother would come in to my room and have to remind me that the glass was 'half full'... . she had to coax me out of bed. I think she thought she was doing the right thing by staying with him, but it really has had such a negative affect on my self-esteem and worth. I had to listen to my father constantly insulting my sisters and I and our appearance. He would compliment my friends, telling me how beautiful they were, but never us. When I was 17, along with my twin sister, we kicked him out of the house after he started threatening to kill us all. This was how my parents split up. My mum never did it, we kicked him out and started the ball rolling. She finally plucked up the courage to divorce him. I was in a mess at this point, and within 6 months I was diagnosed with anorexia - tough times! I sought help and got better and back in to Uni.

So I think it's no wonder I related to such a destructive character. She was pitiful and pathetic, and constantly crying about how much she hated herself for being gay. Even when she was wrong, she would turn it around and cry and I'd comfort her. My father was the master at this. I'm trying to connect the dots from my FOO. I knew she was unhappy, yet I stayed and put up with her triangulating and lying to me. The mismatch between her words and actions really threw me... .   and I didn't know how far I could push it before walking on another emotional landmine. She had a photo of her and her ex in a photo booth up on her fridge the entire time we were together (and living together) and when I tried to say it made me uncomfortable to walk in to my kitchen and see that photo of them looking lovingly in to each others eyes, I was raged at, she would have a tantrum and a meltdown and I'd end up apologising to her, and calming her down.

I believe that anger is a natural feeling to have at times. I don't think that anger itself is either good or bad--any more than gravity is good or bad. Both are simply forces that can be used in a wide variety of ways. So if you aren't feeling anger, accept that as what you are feeling. Remember--feelings are never wrong.

I think you will find it more productive to look at the guilt and shame you ARE feeling.

Can you elaborate more on the feelings you do have?

Again, I sort of feel that I deserve all this. I tried, I really did. But the way she's acted since has made me start to question if I deserve all this? She dumped me, but accused me of driving her crazy. I hate it that she feels like that, especially when all I ever did was love her and tried to support her. But the feeling of being worthless, used and unwanted eats me up. I remember crying to a friend, asking, "why doesn't she want me?", when at first all she did was want me. She pursued me relentlessly, I was the love of her life, and then she ran away. I had put so much on the line for her - I'd come out to my family for her. It just makes me feel that she wanted me so much... .   then when she finally got to know me she saw something that she didn't like. It makes me feel defective and flawed, like I'm not good enough - something I've probably battled my whole life. Why didn't she want me? What did she see in me, once she got to know me, once I let her in, that made her run for the hills? She wanted me so much, then she got to know me, then she didn't. But... .   she not only didn't want me, she feels her life is better without me in it. It makes me feel very flawed and worthless. She didn't block me on facebook, and at new year posted a status about what a great time she was having, and how happy she was. Made me feel pretty rubbish.

I also feel like the way she's cut me out adds to this. Others here seem to hear from their exes. Mine has not tried to contact me once. She deleted me from facebook, etc, and has never once tried to ask how I am. It's been 9/10 months and she still wants nothing to do with me. Not a phonecall, a text, email, nothing. I just can't wrap my head around it. What makes her cut me out so completely when every other ex was always circling. I know I'm the only girl she's ever been in a serious relationship with (due to her being hugely closeted to most people), so my cousin and friends confirm that to me. I'm the only girl she's ever talked about a future with... .   yet I'm the only one she was wiped all existence off from her life. It makes me feel so horrible about myself and worthless. Her only other serious r/s was with a Uni bf who tried to commit suicide when she dumped him. She told me about this and how she knew she was doing the right thing because he was breaking his heart and she felt absolutely nothing for him, nothing. I should have guessed that I would be on the receiving end of this in a year.

I guess in some weird way, because she's made it clear that I'm to blame for the demise of our relationship I just want her to forgive me. For what I'm not sure, but to forgive me. I hate it that she's out there, hating me, not speaking to me. I just want to be forgiven and for things to be ok again.  

Hi Seb!  Could it be that she is not the source of your self-esteem problems?  If that is the case, it would explain why you are stuck.  This "I deserve more" thing is a problem for me too.

I absolutely think that she is not the cause of my self-esteem, you're right. I know I've had a really poor self-esteem for as long as I can remember. I think I'd done such a great job of covering it up and pretending I was fine - I have lots of friends, a lot of really great friends, but I'm a people pleaser. If anyone needs anything, they know they can ask me and I'll drop everything and be there for them. I think my ex saw right through this act and saw the girl beneath that liked to please and fix other people. I blame myself for not thinking more of myself when she showed herself to have very inappropriate boundaries straight away. I should have valued myself more. Instead I was flattered that someone seemed to like me so much - I'd never had that before.

I think when I could have, and should have, ended it I didn't want to in case I never found anyone that felt that way about me again. I know I deserve better than the way my ex treated me, but I just can't seem to translate that to believing it.  

I deserve better than this. I know I do, I'm a kind person, and loyal and trustworthy

I think it takes believing what you just said.  If believing that makes you angry or sad or intensely happy, its all ok.

Be kind to yourself.  You have been through so much.  How would you support a loved one who has gone through what you have?

You are judging yourself.  There is no judgement... .    feel as you feel.

Thank you, Laelle. I am very hard on myself, I always have been. I am re-training as a primary school teacher at the moment, and feel that I get so much out of helping the children from messed up homes. I think I treat them how I wanted to be treated myself. I know I would support a loved one and tell them not to be so hard on themselves... .   I struggle when it comes to myself. I have always been very hard and stern with myself. I beat myself up constantly, and the slightest mistake can send me to being so ruthlessly harsh. I guess I judge myself very harshly, and can't ever seem to cut myself the same slack that I automatically do for other people.

This is a learning curve... .   I'm trying to piece together why I feel the way I do and why I was attracted to such a destructive person. I'm beginning to see that we were a 'perfect' match, we were bound to happen when we met. She gave me, initially, that unconditional love I'd never had, and I built her up and comforted her and made her feel worthwhile and valuable. At the time I just couldn't understand what was happening when she suddenly transformed from completely adoring and worshiping me to hating me overnight, only to discard me and never speak to me again.

I think my case is complicated by her self-loathing about being gay. It's always that question - how much of it (if any!) is BPD and how much of it is her refusal and fear to come out to her family. It just adds to my confusion.

Thank you again for your replies everyone, it really helps to get it off my chest.  

[Seb]

... .   the fact that I forgot to include this shows it's probably something that is hugely shame-based - the fact that this was a gay relationship, my first gay relationship.

I've grown up feeling ashamed of who I am, and with a low self-esteem, unlovable and unworthy. I always knew I had trust issues with men. To me, men were cruel, unkind and scary, and made me feel bad about myself, and said nasty things to hurt me. I think I've naturally gravitated towards women because I feel safer. Whether I have always been gay and suppressed it, I don't know. My sisters and I were always expected to achieve and do well - when we weren't really given the support to do this. We achieved it against all the odds. We're all very successful professionally... . but personally we all suffer. We have very low self-esteem.  Although, I'm the only one who has ever been involved with a woman.

This is probably wandering off a tangent that is outside the realms of this board, so I apologise, but I do wonder whether part of my shame is based in my attraction to women. I found it hard telling my family - like I was letting them down because I wasn't doing as was expected of me.

I think all in all, throw in sexuality issues along with my FOO issues, and I can see that I grew up not feeling very worthy of love, and not very important. The only time I ever felt important was when I was protecting my mother. My sister and I were called her 'guard dogs'. We'd defend her and stand between her and my dad when he was losing it, from as young as 3/4 years old.

I didn't know that this background was setting me up and the perfect partner for such a destructive person, drawn to each other like magnets.

Just thinking out loud here... .   Thanks for listening.

[seeking balance]

... .   the fact that I forgot to include this shows it's probably something that is hugely shame-based - the fact that this was a gay relationship, my first gay relationship.

I've grown up feeling ashamed of who I am, and with a low self-esteem, unlovable and unworthy. I always knew I had trust issues with men. To me, men were cruel, unkind and scary, and made me feel bad about myself, and said nasty things to hurt me. I think I've naturally gravitated towards women because I feel safer. Whether I have always been gay and suppressed it, I don't know. My sisters and I were always expected to achieve and do well - when we weren't really given the support to do this. We achieved it against all the odds. We're all very successful professionally... . but personally we all suffer. We have very low self-esteem.  Although, I'm the only one who has ever been involved with a woman.

This is probably wandering off a tangent that is outside the realms of this board, so I apologise, but I do wonder whether part of my shame is based in my attraction to women. I found it hard telling my family - like I was letting them down because I wasn't doing as was expected of me.

I think all in all, throw in sexuality issues along with my FOO issues, and I can see that I grew up not feeling very worthy of love, and not very important. The only time I ever felt important was when I was protecting my mother. My sister and I were called her 'guard dogs'. We'd defend her and stand between her and my dad when he was losing it, from as young as 3/4 years old.

I didn't know that this background was setting me up and the perfect partner for such a destructive person, drawn to each other like magnets.

Just thinking out loud here... .   Thanks for listening.

This is your key - right here.

Shame is the roadblock to truly feeling worthy.  Regarding "coming out" - I literally had this conversation with a friend last night, being gay has a hidden shame in our culture.  I don't care how amazing a family is, when you are gay - society still casts shame, as such having any other "shame triggers" - this will be amplified.

For me, I had to look spiritually into my core self.  I had to get to a place where I accepted me as I am - all of it - and quit labeling things as good or bad.  Overall, being a human - I have value. 

Brene Brown in the book Daring Greatly is a book you may find useful in getting to the place of feeling worthy and facing shame.

Anger is necessary for grief as others have said.  From my experience, you are likely grieving a lot of things - not simply this relationship. 

We all have value simply because we exist - believe this, be responsible to this.

Being an adult, we get to heal the hurts of our childhood - it is a gift even if it feels hard while going through it.

You are on the right path, you are exactly where you need to be and you will be ok.  I tell myself this often to keep balanced.

Peace,

SB

[Finished]

I can only answer from my experience ... .  

I started believing I deserve more when I got tired of believing I deserved less. I couldn't continue feeling bad about myself. I couldn't continue beating myself up.

There were never going to be good answers. The past is the past and sometimes it's best to leave things in the past. The past can not be changed. Only the present can be dealt with and I want my present to be happy.

It takes too much energy to constantly beat yourself up. Eventually it will wear you out.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm hoping some wise heads on PI can help me move on a little. Thanks 

I think you are getting more to move "in" than "on" -- moving into your own feelings, understanding them more.

I suspect that moving "on" is going to come later. Be patient with yourself, and keep taking an interest in the lessons you are having to learn the hard way. It is *not* your fault that you were raised in the toxic version of "normal" that your FOO provided for you... .   just a lot of work for you now.

You do sound like you're moving in the right direction.

... .   the fact that I forgot to include this shows it's probably something that is hugely shame-based - the fact that this was a gay relationship, my first gay relationship... .   I always knew I had trust issues with men. To me, men were cruel, unkind and scary, and made me feel bad about myself, and said nasty things to hurt me. I think I've naturally gravitated towards women because I feel safer. Whether I have always been gay and suppressed it, I don't know... .   I do wonder whether part of my shame is based in my attraction to women. I found it hard telling my family... .  

I'm hearing a lot of self-doubt here... .   as well as a little ambiguity... .   I'm going to be blunt and just ask:

Are you certain of your sexual orientation, or are you still working it out for yourself?

[sunrising]

This is a great thread.   Seb, I could have written much of your initial post myself, although not nearly as well as you did.  The title of the post itself leapt out at me as precisely something I'm struggling with... .      I could actually make a list of things I've been able to rationalize since my relationship ended but still can't fully embrace them emotionally.  "I deserve better" would definitely be at the top of that list.   

I think I've relied on rationality too much for most of my life, causing me to rarely explore my emotions.  As this (failed relationship) has been the most traumatic experience of my life, rationality just hasn't been cutting it for me.  Since I've never really acknowledged or explored my emotions & rationality hasn't been enough, I'm left with a general deficiency of coping skills.   At no point in my life have I ever been anything close to what I would consider clinically depressed. I'm pretty sure I am now.

Back to the topic... .     I can rationalize all day long that I deserve better. But I'm not confident I truly believe that or that I'll live my life from here forward with true conviction that I deserve better.   I'm glad, though, that we're all here together exploring these things about ourselves.   

[Seb]

This is your key - right here.

Shame is the roadblock to truly feeling worthy.  Regarding "coming out" - I literally had this conversation with a friend last night, being gay has a hidden shame in our culture.  I don't care how amazing a family is, when you are gay - society still casts shame, as such having any other "shame triggers" - this will be amplified.

For me, I had to look spiritually into my core self.  I had to get to a place where I accepted me as I am - all of it - and quit labeling things as good or bad.  Overall, being a human - I have value. 

Brene Brown in the book Daring Greatly is a book you may find useful in getting to the place of feeling worthy and facing shame.

Anger is necessary for grief as others have said.  From my experience, you are likely grieving a lot of things - not simply this relationship. 

We all have value simply because we exist - believe this, be responsible to this.

Being an adult, we get to heal the hurts of our childhood - it is a gift even if it feels hard while going through it.

You are on the right path, you are exactly where you need to be and you will be ok.  I tell myself this often to keep balanced.

Peace,

SB

Thank you SB, I'll definitely look in to that book. I really do want to get to the core of why I feel the way I do. Even though I'm finding this journey incredibly lonely and painful, I do think I'm moving in the right direction. I think I've buried a lot of feelings over the years, and learned not to create drama - to put up and shut up. You're right, I am grieving a lot of things here, not just the end of this relationship. I think this was the first time I'd allowed myself to be so exposed and vulnerable. I trusted her so much and I felt so safe, for the first time ever in a relationship - how wrong was I? I think this has been a huge loss for me, as well as betrayal. I told my family about us because I didn't want to lose her, and the reactions weren't great. It took a few months for things to settle down. I overheard my twin sister on the phone to a friend of hers the night after I told them about my r/s, and she told a friend it was 'weird' to be around me now, and didn't know what to say or how to act. I was so upset when I heard this. I mean, this is an educated 29 year old doctor, who has many gay friends. She just couldn't tolerate it as easily in me. I'm glad I stood up for myself but it was hard. The initial feeling of rejection by them hit me hard. But at least I did it. My ex will forever run away from her sexuality. She was terrified that I'd out her to a mutual friend from her home city after she dumped me.

I hate that there's such a stigma of shame still attached to being gay.

I've re-read what you wrote about accepting me as a whole, who I am, and not judging, good or bad. That really resonates with me. Thank you.

I can only answer from my experience ... .  

I started believing I deserve more when I got tired of believing I deserved less. I couldn't continue feeling bad about myself. I couldn't continue beating myself up.

There were never going to be good answers. The past is the past and sometimes it's best to leave things in the past. The past can not be changed. Only the present can be dealt with and I want my present to be happy.

It takes too much energy to constantly beat yourself up. Eventually it will wear you out.

Thank you, Finished.

I agree... .   it just seems to take so much effort to continually beat myself up for things. Since seeing a T, I can see that my automatic response is to apologise. Someone bumps in to me, sorry. Someone wrongs me, sorry. I can never show them that I'm p'd off in case they're angry with me for being p'd off. I'm tired of totally invalidating my feelings and then getting upset when I continually get walked over. I'm working on allowing myself to show people if they've upset me. That way, they'll know that I've been upset, or didn't like something. I am so tired of being a people pleaser and doormat. It's allowed my ex to totally abuse my good nature and bleed me dry. My T has assured me I'm sane, and that I'm not the one with a personality disorder! How you can tangle with crazy and it can rub off hey. I think I've always known I've had issues regarding my confidence and how I view myself, I just didn't realise til now just how unhealthy this is, and how being grateful for any affection sets me up to be very vulnerable to people like my ex.

I'm hoping some wise heads on PI can help me move on a little. Thanks 

I think you are getting more to move "in" than "on" -- moving into your own feelings, understanding them more.

I suspect that moving "on" is going to come later. Be patient with yourself, and keep taking an interest in the lessons you are having to learn the hard way. It is *not* your fault that you were raised in the toxic version of "normal" that your FOO provided for you... .   just a lot of work for you now.

You do sound like you're moving in the right direction.

... .   the fact that I forgot to include this shows it's probably something that is hugely shame-based - the fact that this was a gay relationship, my first gay relationship... .   I always knew I had trust issues with men. To me, men were cruel, unkind and scary, and made me feel bad about myself, and said nasty things to hurt me. I think I've naturally gravitated towards women because I feel safer. Whether I have always been gay and suppressed it, I don't know... .   I do wonder whether part of my shame is based in my attraction to women. I found it hard telling my family... .  

I'm hearing a lot of self-doubt here... .   as well as a little ambiguity... .   I'm going to be blunt and just ask:

Are you certain of your sexual orientation, or are you still working it out for yourself?

I appreciate your bluntness. You're right, there is a lot of ambiguity there. That must be the shame still lingering. I don't want to wimp out here, not after I've done the hard yards these last fee years. I want to be happy, and I need to be honest.  I was happier than I've ever been with my ex, I felt more comfortable than I ever have before being with her. She and I clicked and I truly loved being with her. So, am I gay? Yes, I would say so.  I need to work on this. I certainly won't be put off from having a relationship with a woman again, even though this has burnt me more than any other. I loved her, or at least I thought I did. She is the only person I've ever loved. So even though certain people didn't react well to my r/s with her, I'm trying not to care. My ex is still in the closet, and miserable by all accounts. I don't ever want to live like that.

Thanks very much all, you've been very understanding and helpful. It's a strange new world to start dealing with, with open eyes. I want to be happy and proud of who I am. I'm re-reading your posts multiple times, its all very helpful to me. Thank you so much 

[Seb]

This is a great thread.   Seb, I could have written much of your initial post myself, although not nearly as well as you did.  The title of the post itself leapt out at me as precisely something I'm struggling with... .      I could actually make a list of things I've been able to rationalize since my relationship ended but still can't fully embrace them emotionally.  "I deserve better" would definitely be at the top of that list.   

I think I've relied on rationality too much for most of my life, causing me to rarely explore my emotions.  As this (failed relationship) has been the most traumatic experience of my life, rationality just hasn't been cutting it for me.  Since I've never really acknowledged or explored my emotions & rationality hasn't been enough, I'm left with a general deficiency of coping skills.   At no point in my life have I ever been anything close to what I would consider clinically depressed. I'm pretty sure I am now.

Back to the topic... .     I can rationalize all day long that I deserve better. But I'm not confident I truly believe that or that I'll live my life from here forward with true conviction that I deserve better.   I'm glad, though, that we're all here together exploring these things about ourselves.   

Hi sunrising,

I'm glad you're finding some benefit to this thread. The more I know of this illness and the people who get caught up in it, I see there are such distinctive traits in us. It's no wonder we can all see a lot of similarities in ourselves.

I know what you mean - we can take a step back and look objectively at the situation, and be appalled at some of the treatment we've endured. I'm pretty sure we all read each others stories and can see quite clearly that we deserve more. It's just hard to truly feel and believe it when it's us.  I know had a friend told me my story as if it had happened to them I'd be outraged. It's just when it's us its harder to do that. Why? This is the question isn't it.

I'm with you. I'm a thinker, I need to dissect and understand. My T has noticed that I like to make sense of why people do the things they do, why I do... .   yet it's not as comfortable to explore my emotions. I don't like feeling negative emotions, but apparently I need to be able to feel them and live with them if I'm ever going to work through this.

It's so hard, I know. I think if you're not used to working with your emotions this is a painful, yet valuable journey. Where are you now? How are you going about believing you're worth more? It's easy to say isn't it, but how do we really believe it. I like what SB said about not judging ourselves, good or bad, just accepting us for who we are, that we are valuable because we simply exist. Just like anyone else. This is hard for me - I've always put myself at that 'one down' position... .   my needs aren't as important as others. If someone goes without, it's me. If someone needs something, they have it. If there are no beds, I sleep on the floor because heaven forbid someone else does. Crazy examples like this. My mum moulded me in to that role. She's very similar in lots of ways, and has unwittingly placed me in that position too... .   it was always a case of, 'oh Seb won't mind'.

Hard work to process but worth it.

[seeking balance]

Even though I'm finding this journey incredibly lonely and painful, I do think I'm moving in the right direction.

We all feel lonely during this 

Loneliness is part of life - but, I know once I have that feeling how to handle it.  Sometimes, I sit in it and really know "this too shall pass."  Other times, I call a friend, go to yoga - move my body and the energy changes too.

What I have learned to do (or not do) is think someone other than me can change this - an inappropriate partner or friend only accelerates loneliness and is not a temporary band-aid any longer.

I think I've buried a lot of feelings over the years, and learned not to create drama - to put up and shut up.

(I just watched Brene on Oprah Super Soul Sunday, so bear with me on this point as it is fresh)

People who live in core shame believe they shouldn't have a voice - their self talk is "I am not worthy or I am stupid".

People who don't have core shame have a voice and their self talk is "I did something stupid"

Actions don't dictate core self worth - we are human, we all make mistakes.  Learning from the mistakes gives us humility and with humility we can connect to others. 

I think this was the first time I'd allowed myself to be so exposed and vulnerable. I trusted her so much and I felt so safe, for the first time ever in a relationship - how wrong was I?

The greatest strength is in the ability to be vulnerable - please don't sell yourself short on that fact.

You were not wrong - YOU were acting authentic.  We all want to be loved for just being ourselves... .   it is ok this was the person you first felt this with.  You did the best you could with the information you had, right?

I think this has been a huge loss for me, as well as betrayal. I told my family about us because I didn't want to lose her, and the reactions weren't great. It took a few months for things to settle down. I overheard my twin sister on the phone to a friend of hers the night after I told them about my r/s, and she told a friend it was 'weird' to be around me now, and didn't know what to say or how to act. I was so upset when I heard this.

I came out 20+ years ago and it was the "family tragedy."

5 years ago my 80 year old god parents were at my lesbian wedding - people just need time to get used to it. 

On the flip side, my sister who was the first family person I told, found religion about 10 years in and decided her children were no longer allowed to be around me... .   you never really know how someone will react, but it is not your issue - it is theirs.  Grieve what you need to, when you need to - but don't personalize someone else's reaction. (harder to do, I know).

Keep in mind, In the same way we have to grieve our own stuff around being gay, so does our family.  Try not to take the initial reactions personally... .   if over time they are not coming around, then you can focus on boundary setting.

Again, this is where so much shame can come from - if our family has doubts about us, how are we not flawed?  Be patient with yourself as you grieve the Disney life you probably dreamed about too.  The little secret nobody talks about, is gay or straight - there is no Disney "happily ever after".  Life is a series of ups/downs and we all do the best we can with what we know.

You are stronger than you know - how do I know this?  You had the courage to post here and you have the courage to come out... .   you will be ok Seb.

[Finished]

I agree... .   it just seems to take so much effort to continually beat myself up for things.

I think it takes more energy to beat ourselves up as we become healthier happier people. It's harder to convince ourselves of the negatives when we start seeing the good. After awhile the energy needed to continue beating ourselves up is exhausting.

I pay alot of attention now to the internal recordings in my head. I didn't realize how most of it is negative self talk.

[Suzn]

I think I see a girl who is so messed up, and full of self-loathing, and was more than happy to take and take from me, until she almost destroyed me. And she's the one who's called the shots, making me out to be the bad guy.

My father was rageful, cheating, controlling, cruel and violent... .   and yet there were times when he was the opposite, very remorseful, pathetic and crying as if he were a child.

It used to make me feel very unsafe and unsure of who he was. One day he was violent with myself and my mum, the next he was telling everyone how amazing he was and we just had to smile and pretend we were this perfect family.

Because this is what "good" girls do. Good girls don't cause problems, they don't get mad, they keep quite and pretend all is ok.

I think she thought she was doing the right thing by staying with him, but it really has had such a negative affect on my self-esteem and worth. I had to listen to my father constantly insulting my sisters and I and our appearance. He would compliment my friends, telling me how beautiful they were, but never us. When I was 17, along with my twin sister, we kicked him out of the house after he started threatening to kill us all.

Seb you've been in survival mode for the most of your childhood. Fathers don't threaten to kill their families, this was abusive.

So I think it's no wonder I related to such a destructive character. She was pitiful and pathetic, and constantly crying about how much she hated herself for being gay. Even when she was wrong, she would turn it around and cry and I'd comfort her. My father was the master at this. I'm trying to connect the dots from my FOO.

I absolutely think that she is not the cause of my self-esteem, you're right. I know I've had a really poor self-esteem for as long as I can remember. I think I'd done such a great job of covering it up and pretending I was fine - I have lots of friends, a lot of really great friends, but I'm a people pleaser. If anyone needs anything, they know they can ask me and I'll drop everything and be there for them.

Seb as hard as it is, her issues had nothing to do with you. Just as our issues have nothing to do with them, meaning your esteem issues started long ago. What does she need to forgive you for? Who's forgiveness are you searching for? You were a good girl back then and you're a good girl now, you always have been. Drop everything and be there for you, you get to have your turn and you are worth it.

[doubleAries]

Seb, I can relate in many ways to what you are going through. I am on this same path.

On a conscious level, I believe I deserve better. It's the unconscious level that's not getting up to speed. I don't know how to love myself. No one taught me. What they DID teach me was that I was a greedy selfish pig for having any needs at all--let alone "wants". That I should be filled with self loathing, because I was so loathsome. I don't believe that anymore. Not on the conscious level anyway... .  

So what I do instead is search for someone who will give me the love I need to give myself. But geez--who in their right mind would do that? Especially for "free"? OH! Here's an idea! How about if I have something to offer them? How about if I find a broken person and I fix them, so that (a) I can prove I have value and worth, and (b) they will be grateful and love me, in spite of the fact that I'm not really lovable? Been, there, done that, got that t-shirt. Several times. Didn't quite work out like I planned. When people become dependent on you, they become resentful. And when you become dependent on them for your self-value, you become resentful.

It's difficult. I am so far removed from "self love" that any attempts at it smack of narcissism to me and I immediately reject it. Sure wouldn't want to be a selfish narcissist!

When someone gets mad at me, I ALWAYS think it's because I've done something wrong. Why? Because I'm a bad person, obviously. I don't think this kind of stuff consciously. It plays itself out in the "self-talk" tapes that play in my head and I don't consciously pay attention to, but those messages still get through loud and clear. Now and then I catch a little of that self talk and I am astounded. I would NEVER dream of talking to anyone else the way I talk to myself! And not only that, but I'm getting really tired of being codependent. Being a help-aholic. Hmmm... .   maybe I am beginning to believe I deserve better. What does it mean to take care of yourself? and Self respect and our sense of ourselves

doubleAries

[sad but wiser]

DoubleAries, Thanks for this!

Sure wouldn't want to be a selfish narcissist!

  That is me all over!

[Seb]

Thank you all for your replies, and suggestions, they really help me a lot and I'm so grateful. Thank you.

SB, I've just ordered that Brene Brown book from Amazon, looks good! Thanks for the suggestion.

I've been feeling a little better today getting things off my chest. I really appreciate all of the kind words from everyone. I became quite emotional reading them actually. It feels good to have support out there somewhere.

I definitely have the become the master of negative self-talk. I'm someone that thinks I'm stupid, rather than I did something stupid. I wonder how I'll ever begin to change that?

My T has tried to get me to 'sit' in the negative emotions and to feel them. It's hard, I hate feeling anything bad and will do anything to push them away, so allowing these negative emotions to exist with me is a strange new concept.

I defintely did the best I could at the time, and although I still beat myself up about what happened, I suppose nothing I did would have changed the outcome. I couldn't love her enough so that she would miraculously start loving herself. I did think I could at the time. When she told me how much she hated herself, how unnatural she was, I should have sat up and taken notice. It's been a big learning curve for me, and I will never be as naive in the future. When someone tells me they're not good at relationships, and that they're always meant to be unhappy and alone... .   I'll listen. I have such stronger 'fixer' tendencies, this is going to be a work in progress. But this r/s has opened my eyes.

Time and learning about myself and this illness has also allowed me to really ask myself if it was *her* I was missing and craving. In reality, she isn't the type of person that I want to end up with. I don't want to be with someone who will treat me so cruelly and without empathy. I also know I don't want someone who will run away at the first sign of trouble and cut me out. I don't want someone who will lie to me and have emotional affairs with exgf's behind my back, as if I'd trapped her in a r/s. I don't want a gf who will manipulate me and demand that I assume a caretaker role.  Thanks to this site, I can see this all quite clearly, and it's good to remind myself of that.

I think for a long time I was so upset because I'd lost her - the girl I came out for. It was such a risky move, to me anyway, and for her to ditch me high and dry like that was such a blow. I just wanted her back, regardless of how she was now showing herself. Thank goodness she has given me space because it's only now that I can see exactly what I'd have let myself in for had she come back. I deserve better - and I guess it's going to be a journey I take with another girl.

I also worry that I'll never find anyone that loves me as much as she did (or at least pretended to). I think that's why I stayed in it when my better judgement should have told me to run. I still do worry now that I'll never meet anyone that will love me.

Regarding my sister. I know she loves me, I know she does, and no matter what I know she'll stick by me in the longrun... .   but she really showed herself when I told them about my exgf. She hated me being with her. She says it was because she didn't like her, and that may be true, but I know her... .   she's been moulded by my family too. In her eyes, it's not right unless we are the perfect family: husband, 2.4 children, big house, you name it. She will take a lot of coming around on this. I've always felt that she views me as an extension of her - weird thing to say I know. She judges me very harshly. She loves me dearly and will defend me always, but she and I have always had this relationship where anything I do reflects on her. She feels that I have to live up to the image she wants for herself. We argued once, when my ex and I were still together. She was mad at me and her for being overly affectionate in front of one of her friends in a beer garden (we weren't, at all, just hands on legs, that type of stuff). Afterwards she was mad at me because she hadn't told her friend about me yet. I was flabbergasted! I told her there's no need to warn people, just to get over it, we weren't doing anything wrong. As it escalated she told me to: "go F*** your girlfriend". I was so upset. She would have said that to me had I been sat there with a boyfriend. My sisters feel very uncomfortable with it being me. They both sometimes bring her up in an argument, as a point to criticise me over. The last time this happened I told them to carry on because it was just highlighting what bigots they are. Like I said, they're both educated and have gay friends, but they're not as tolerant and accepting when it's me.  I've distanced myself anway from them, as I moved to a new city last summer, but I know this is something that will take time with them. My mum, on the other hand, has been very supportive. She has not once been anything other than loving and understanding. My cousin, my exes friend (that's how I met her), was glad she dumped me because "She's not good enough to be in our family". It's like an uphill battle with my lot. There's always the image to uphold. We're all successful - doctors, dentists, teachers - and it's like me being gay is this massive letdown. I guess it'll take a lot more courage to get through it, but I'm determined to do it. I've come this far, and I don't want to be unhappy forever.

I've been proactive in seeking therapy - something I can take as a silver lining from the bad experience with my ex last year. I think both of my sisters could do with some counselling too, but at the moment they're not doing anything about it. My twin acknowledges that the way she feels about herself isn't healthy and that she could do with speaking to someone, but I"m not sure if she ever will. So I view that as a strength on my part. At least I'm being proactive in getting emotionally healthy.

Thank you for saying that it isn't my fault. I sometimes forget that the way I grew up and the things I witnessed and experienced weren't normal. My mother really tried her best with the knowledge that she had at the time, but it has definitely had a major impact on our esteem. I think it was confusing to be told one thing by my father and then to experience another - it made me doubt myself and my perceptions. I still have the feeling that my interpretations are off and others are valid - simply because they're someone elses, and mine are mine.  

I would say that my grandfather was an alcoholic - a guess, but pretty sure - who was violent to my grandmother and my dad (who was an only child). My dad had a stammer as a result and grew up pretty much defending his mother when his father would rage at them. My dad told me all this. And in spite of everything he went through he was expected to succeed, which he did professionally, but emotionally he was a mess. Like I said, he would be a monster one day, he was cruel and would think nothing of calling me 'fat' or a 'carthorse' which was his favourite insult. Then the next, cry and apologise and ask for forgiveness. It's all very confusing, and did nothing but make me feel guilty for hating him, or making him cry.

He even called me 'butch' when I was 14.  Not that there's anything wrong with being butch, but I've never been butch in my life. I played hockey internationally at schoolgirl level and was athletic, but he would always pat my stomach and tell me to drop weight because I was a carthorse. I was probably 8 stone when he was saying this, and very fit, so hardly a carthorse. It's funny how these insults and digs stick with you. I think every girl just wants to hear their father tell them they're beautiful.

I played hockey with a friend who has this amazing dad, and I remember being so jealous of her. He was fab, and in my eyes was the perfect dad. One day, after my dad had hit me the day before across the face, we were standing on the hockey pitch chatting and for some reason I told her my dad had hit me - I never told anyone, so couldn't believe I had. The shock that came across her face shocked me, and I quickly added: 'oh it was an accident'.  I wanted to tell people, but I was so conditioned to keeping up the act.

I think this was a form of gaslighting? Being told one thing and experiencing another? Everyone loved my dad, he was the 'poor guy' that lived with 4 women. We'd sit there as he'd act all charming and joke with everyone, and inside it was this eternal conflict. How come I hate him if everyone else loves him?

But you're right, Suzn, how I behaved is what we were expected to do. Sit there, shut up and pretend it's all fine.

Even now I see my dad and he will tell his new girlfriend what a great time we had growing up, and we'll have to agree with him, when all you feel like doing is shaking him and saying, 'What? You were there - do you remember how unhappy you made us?'.

DoubleAries, thank you for the links, they're very helpful, and I've printed them out to have a look at. What you wrote - that's exactly how I feel. I know on a conscious level that I deserve more, but it's getting that to sink to the unconscious that I'm having trouble with. What you said about not ever dreaming of speaking to yourself in the same way that you speak to others - I've said that to my T.  He's trying to get me to see that I need to be kind to myself, like I am to others. I'm guessing this will take quite some time. But at least maybe us pinpointing the problem is a big start?

I still think it's no coincidence that my biggest satisfaction from teaching is that I can help the kids from troubled backgrounds. I get so much out of helping them, and giving them the love and support they need.  I know it's because I can give them what I needed when I was their age. The stuff they tell me is incredible. I said to my sister the other day, it's remarkable that we never once let slip to anyone in school what was going on at home. I guess we were trained well not to let the side down. Plus my mum was a teacher in the school!

So... .   next steps for me? Working on changing the negative self-talk. Accepting me, as I am. Accepting that I'm gay and that it's ok. Telling everyone that I'm gay, not feeling the need to hide it from people. Working on my core shame with my T. Easy hey!  

I'm so grateful to this place and to you all for helping me. It certainly makes me feel less alone. Thank you for being so kind and supportive, your words mean so, so much to me. I'm going to print out all of your replies to keep on me and read.  

[Grey Kitty]

I definitely have the become the master of negative self-talk. I'm someone that thinks I'm stupid, rather than I did something stupid. I wonder how I'll ever begin to change that?

Uhm... .   when you catch yourself thinking I'm stupid, follow it up by beating yourself up for the negative self-talk  (Yes, I AM kidding!)

Seriously though... .   just noticing that you are doing it is a start.

Perhaps you will notice times when you would have beat yourself up and realize that you didn't do it this time.

I defintely did the best I could at the time, and although I still beat myself up about what happened, I suppose nothing I did would have changed the outcome. I couldn't love her enough so that she would miraculously start loving herself. I did think I could at the time. When she told me how much she hated herself, how unnatural she was, I should have sat up and taken notice. It's been a big learning curve for me, and I will never be as naive in the future. When someone tells me they're not good at relationships, and that they're always meant to be unhappy and alone... .   I'll listen. I have such stronger 'fixer' tendencies, this is going to be a work in progress. But this r/s has opened my eyes.

Time and learning about myself and this illness has also allowed me to really ask myself if it was *her* I was missing and craving. In reality, she isn't the type of person that I want to end up with. I don't want to be with someone who will treat me so cruelly and without empathy. I also know I don't want someone who will run away at the first sign of trouble and cut me out. I don't want someone who will lie to me and have emotional affairs with exgf's behind my back, as if I'd trapped her in a r/s. I don't want a gf who will manipulate me and demand that I assume a caretaker role.  Thanks to this site, I can see this all quite clearly, and it's good to remind myself of that.

I think for a long time I was so upset because I'd lost her - the girl I came out for. It was such a risky move, to me anyway, and for her to ditch me high and dry like that was such a blow. I just wanted her back, regardless of how she was now showing herself. Thank goodness she has given me space because it's only now that I can see exactly what I'd have let myself in for had she come back. I deserve better - and I guess it's going to be a journey I take with another girl.

I also worry that I'll never find anyone that loves me as much as she did (or at least pretended to). I think that's why I stayed in it when my better judgement should have told me to run. I still do worry now that I'll never meet anyone that will love me.

Well... .   that BPD honeymoon/idealization period is pretty hard to top. But what inevitably follows just isn't worth it. So at some level I hope you never do find love "like that" again.

The rest of what you wrote up here sounds like you really are making progress over here at personal inventory. Keep it up, and this insight will prepare you for something better to follow, I'm sure. I'm really impressed.

So... .   next steps for me? Working on changing the negative self-talk. Accepting me, as I am. Accepting that I'm gay and that it's ok. Telling everyone that I'm gay, not feeling the need to hide it from people. Working on my core shame with my T. Easy hey!  

You're absolutely on the right track there!

My life didn't come with a guarantee that the important things that I needed to do would all be easy. If yours did, I'm gonna trade mine in for the kind you got! 

[Suzn]

I definitely have the become the master of negative self-talk. I'm someone that thinks I'm stupid, rather than I did something stupid. I wonder how I'll ever begin to change that?

Seb our histories are similar. This topic above is something I've delved into just recently. What I realized was in my childhood I would try to avoid punishment by attempting to be a "good" girl or be perfect. I also realized that my abusers were who they were, they had their own histories to battle, just like your father did, it wouldn't have mattered how perfect I was.

I agree with Grey Kitty about the negative self talk, you have to become aware of it when it starts in your mind and say stop. Literally, tell yourself "stop it right now, I am not stupid, or insert whatever negative aspect you are telling yourself, you are lying to me and I won't hear it" I used this method and it helped a lot.

You are right about the beauty of these boards, when one is ready and willing, they help open up an awareness we never had prior. Three different advisors gave me tools to use in this "I'm stupid"/negative self talk aspect that I am using today. One was simply "you can't walk on water" so why do you try? Reminding myself that as talented as I am I can't do this so give up the being perfect.   

Second was to write down 5 things I've done or do well when I'm feeling this way. Third was to remember that child is still within us, our selves that never had a true protector. Talk to the child in you with your self talk, replace the negative talk with positive reinforcement such as "I know your hurting or scared or nervous but I have you, I have your best interests at heart and "I" will be protecting you. You are safe and all is well."

My T has tried to get me to 'sit' in the negative emotions and to feel them. It's hard, I hate feeling anything bad and will do anything to push them away, so allowing these negative emotions to exist with me is a strange new concept.

I'm so glad you are working with a T during this time. This is something I've worked with my own T about too. One of the best pieces of advice from her in regards to feeling negative emotions was, during feeling these emotions, remind yourself at the same time "you are ok". Meaning, it's a negative emotion and we are learning to deal with those appropriately, they won't kill ya. They are painful at times and grieving doesn't feel good but not all emotions feel good. Grieving, however, is an important part of your growth, you have much to grieve Seb and it's a process. It takes time, be patient and kind to yourself.

I defintely did the best I could at the time, and although I still beat myself up about what happened, I suppose nothing I did would have changed the outcome.

This is a great realization. Our inner child controls our emotions which in turn means our emotions can control us. Beating yourself up, I have found, is being heavy handed with the child within us. Not the way to treat a hurting child is it?

I also worry that I'll never find anyone that loves me as much as she did (or at least pretended to). I think that's why I stayed in it when my better judgement should have told me to run. I still do worry now that I'll never meet anyone that will love me.

Seb I want you to meet someone, her name is Seb. Learn to love yourself first and doors will open. Trust that you will be tested by this universe.

I would say that my grandfather was an alcoholic - a guess, but pretty sure - who was violent to my grandmother and my dad (who was an only child). My dad had a stammer as a result and grew up pretty much defending his mother when his father would rage at them. My dad told me all this. And in spite of everything he went through he was expected to succeed, which he did professionally, but emotionally he was a mess. Like I said, he would be a monster one day, he was cruel and would think nothing of calling me 'fat' or a 'carthorse' which was his favourite insult. Then the next, cry and apologise and ask for forgiveness. It's all very confusing, and did nothing but make me feel guilty for hating him, or making him cry.

This is who he is. This was the best he could do. Seeing that he had his own history, his own demons to battle. Understanding this can help you in the process of forgiveness someday.

I think every girl just wants to hear their father tell them they're beautiful.

Yes they do. 

how I behaved is what we were expected to do. Sit there, shut up and pretend it's all fine.

This is one way, if not the only way, core shame grows. Talking about it now is key. One of the things Brene Brown speaks of is "shame cannot survive where empathy exists."

[sad but wiser]

Seb - absolutely stop the negative self-talk!  Just be sure that you aren't standing on the street talking loudly to yourself, shaking your head violently, of people will cross the street to get away from the crazy person!  Just kidding.  Hang in there, time will heal many things.   

[Seb]

Seriously though... .   just noticing that you are doing it is a start.

Perhaps you will notice times when you would have beat yourself up and realize that you didn't do it this time.

Thanks all for the support, I really appreciate it. I wish I knew you all in real life!

Grey Kitty, yep, I think this is something to take as a positive. To highlight the negative self-talk is something that needs work, and to notice and be aware when I do this, well, it's a start. It probably wont change overnight, but at least I can work with something.

I know there are things that need to change, and this is a big one for me. The negative talk and shame is probably why I can't shake the bad projections that my ex so masterfully passed on to me when she dumped me.  I can't seem to shake the feeling that the problem was with me, that who wouldn't run away once they got to know the real me - who can blame her - and that she'll be much happier with the next girl, who wont bring out that side to her. I know this is silly, but it's there, and I know that's down to the way I view myself. Like there's something wrong with me, and I am to blame. If I had more confidence I would be able to back myself and know that I tried everything I could to make her happy, and to make our relationship work... .   and I wouldn't believe the bad things she thinks about me. In fact, I'd be outraged that anyone has treated me so appallingly. I can't seem to get to that point yet.

Really got to work to change this.

You're right, the honeymoon/idealisation was unlike anything I've ever experienced before. I've never felt as loved and adored by someone else, ever.  So it's a huge shock to wake up one day and realise that this person has gone, for no discernible reason, and they're not ever coming back. You're really left wondering *What did I do wrong?* I think I was so in to the idealisation I didn't want to face reality. It's confusing when the person who once couldn't get enough of you - everything about you was amazing in their eyes - transforms in to someone you don't recognise and cant fathom. I ignored for far too long the lies and the secret contact with the exes. At the same time as telling me she was madly in love with me and wanted to marry me and would die without me, she was emailing an ex fling to say that she was worried she was making a mistake. Why didn't I leave then? It made no sense to me. It was like she felt I'd trapped her in this relationship, and yet she was the one who came after me, who made every plan, and made things so serious so early on. I guess the sheer speed with which our r/s transformed from amazing to ugly, combined with the fact that she has wanted to blame me, has made me believe that the problem is with me, and not her.

I know that the way she was able to walk away so quickly means that the feelings weren't real. I didn't want to face that for such a long time, because it was far too painful. But I'm ok to admit that now. She never loved me like she said she did. She didn't know me. I don't ever want that again, you're right. I want someone who is mature enough to work at something, and to see the good and the bad, who wants to get to know me for me, and not what I can do for them.  This means I need to change myself - and stop being a person that 'advertises' myself for what I can do for others. I don't want to be known as the person who does anything for anyone.  I need more self-respect than that.

Coming out is so hard - and I've already mentioned this to another member - I feel embarrassed that I'm doing it so late. I'm 30. I had a girlfriend, but now we're not together, those that knew about us have automatically started setting me up with guys. I've told them no, I'm not interested, and so I've been single since my ex dumped me. It just seems like this huge hurdle to have to go through all over again. I will. I don't want to be a wimp, but it feels so lonely and isolating right now. I move back to London in the summer - away from this small city my ex and I live in, the one I moved down to for her - and in my head I feel like that's a milestone to turn over a new leaf, and start afresh. But like I said, I feel so embarrassed that I've let it go on for so long. I think I'll feel worried that everyone will feel like I've lied and cheated them all my life. My family really don't make it easy either - there's such immense pressure not to let the side down that I know they'll be so disappointed. Not my mum, but my sisters will. I know it. They knew about my ex and really gave me such a hard time over it. I'm learning not to care as much... .   but it still stings to be on the receiving end of hurtful comments all the time.

I know there's that saying - people show themselves through their actions, and so I know when my sisters react with anger and upset, it's their feelings coming through that have nothing to do with me. My mum and I had this conversation on the phone this morning... .   it just takes a while to sink in and for me to start believing it.

Suzn, what you said about learning to love myself is so right, but so hard. I just don't know where to start with this. I guess it's changing the self-talk, and to start being kinder to myself.  My ex hated herself and I thought if I loved her enough that would change, I could help her see how amazing she was. But of course, we all know how it works. It's no wonder she can't sustain relationships when she hates herself so much. I agree though, I need to love me fully before I can give myself to a relationship and be a healthy, equal partner. I want that in a partner too, not someone damaged and unhappy. Those fixer-uppers, who I could prove my worth to, no longer appeal to me.

I've been so naive. I've always - miraculously - seen the best in everyone, and really do trust people when they tell me something. I've always prided myself on being a good judge of character. Before this debacle I always thought I could easily spot the good and the bad people - guess I was really wrong this time!

What you said about treating the inner child in me with more kindness, I agree, this seems like a good place to start. I'll definitely try it. My T said this to me as well. He said to try and give my inner child the same love and care that I give to the children in my class. Seems like a good idea, and something that I know I've never tried before. When I think of how negatively I speak about myself, to myself, it's no wonder I can't seem to muster any real inner-confidence. I've smashed that to smithereens long ago! I wonder if I can start  building that up now, at my age?

If I'm being honest, right now I feel all over the place, and I'm just about keeping it together. I have so much stress to deal with at the moment with school/work, and all this emotional turmoil that no one else is seeing really doesn't help. I feel so uncertain of the future, of what I'm doing, where I'm going, how I'm going to manage - everything just feels like it's swelling up on top of me and I'm all on my own. I'm just not sure I can cope with everything. It's so hard. I can't see what my future will be like, and I hate feeling so adrift and isolated.  I know I'll get there eventually, I always do, somehow. Just feels really really hard this time.


Thank you again, Grey Kitty, Suzn and Sad but wiser. Just being able to talk to people like you all make it so much more tolerable, you really have no idea just how much it comforts me to be able to get all this off my chest. Thank you all so much.  

[seeking balance]

I know there are things that need to change, and this is a big one for me. The negative talk and shame is probably why I can't shake the bad projections that my ex so masterfully passed on to me when she dumped me.  

The ex highlighted this feeling for you, however, your T will likely be able to help you get to the root cause... .   it didn't start with your ex, that much is something I know for sure.

I know that the way she was able to walk away so quickly means that the feelings weren't real.

Her feelings were real in the moment she said them... .   she is just not capable of sustaining them through her actions do to HER emotional issues.  It was an "aha" moment for me when I accepted it wasn't about me - it was real for us both, however, I was the only one of us capable of sustaining it. 

Coming out is so hard - and I've already mentioned this to another member - I feel embarrassed that I'm doing it so late. I'm 30.

Yes, it is hard - use your T to work through all the emotions that come with it.

Embarrassed how?  There is no right/wrong way to come out - it is a personal experience.  Some people know their entire lives and others come out in their 60's - what has you embarrassed.

A little advise from me that is unsolicited, but I wish someone would have told me - you are really about 16 in your emotional state of dating... .   this is when a lot of people have their first loves and learn to date and trust.   Keeping your own emotional maturity in mind and cultivating this will help you choose wisely next time.  The intense emotions of real love & sex that you experienced with her - the majority of society learns to handle those in their late teens.  It is also not coupled with shame - being mindful of this is really really important.

I've been so naive. I've always - miraculously - seen the best in everyone, and really do trust people when they tell me something. I've always prided myself on being a good judge of character. Before this debacle I always thought I could easily spot the good and the bad people - guess I was really wrong this time!

ok - so you made a mistake... .   last I checked, you were human, right?  Humans make mistakes - we all do... .   this does not mean we are bad or always wrong - simply human.  Be kind in how you judge yourself and others even - this quality in you is good in its essence.

If I'm being honest, right now I feel all over the place, and I'm just about keeping it together.

That is 100% normal right now - all we can do is our best - your best right now is very much good enough.  It is ok to fall apart as you work through all this - it is big stuff.

,

SB

[Finished]

SEB,

You may have mentioned this and I missed it so please forgive me if this is a repeat question.

I know this is your first same-sex relationship but is this also the first time you have ever been in love?

[Seb]

Finished - yes, this was the first time I've been in love, or thought it was love. I'm not so sure anymore 

I had 2 long-term boyfriends before my ex, one 2 years, and one almost 6 years, and I never felt anything close to how I felt about her.

SB... .   embarrassed that I'm 30 and coming out. I'm just expecting people to feel like I've been lying to them and they'll feel I've let them down.

When you say emotionally I'm about 16 when it comes to dating - is that because this was my first 'real' relationship, with love and true emotions involved? I have definitely been naive, romantically.

[Finished]

Finished - yes, this was the first time I've been in love, or thought it was love. I'm not so sure anymore 

I had 2 long-term boyfriends before my ex, one 2 years, and one almost 6 years, and I never felt anything close to how I felt about her.

SB... .   embarrassed that I'm 30 and coming out. I'm just expecting people to feel like I've been lying to them and they'll feel I've let them down.

When you say emotionally I'm about 16 when it comes to dating - is that because this was my first 'real' relationship, with love and true emotions involved? I have definitely been naive, romantically.

Well, you know there is no love like your first love. So part of what you are experiencing is that. The first love hurts like no other and feels great like no other. Add into the mix that your first love was with an emotionally disordered person and I'm sure the feelings were off the charts.

Also, I struggled with the "Was it love or not debate". Finally I decided that ... .   for me it was love. Whether my ex's mental issues means he can sustain love or engage in it healthily is irrelevant. His mental illness does not define my feelings.

There is a huge difference between love and a healthy relationship. Just because I loved him doesn't mean the relationship was healthy. They are two separate items that occur simultaneously and can and do affect each other. So don't worry whether it was real for her. It was real for you and that is what matters. Take pride in the fact you are able to love.

Look ... . I don't know how to say this without saying it directly ... .   You have to let go of the embarrassment surrounding coming out at 30. I can tell you ... .   as a gay man ... .   Even if you had come out at 20 you would still be behind our heterosexual counterparts. Unfortunately that is normal.

Why? Well the majority of society is heterosexual (go figure LOL). There are few role models out there for us growing up. In many cases the area we grow up in can cause us to suppress who we are out of a shear need to survive. No one teaches us how to date. Honestly, in many cases we just don't know what to do. And as much as I would like to say that "It's just like straight people" it isn't. No clue what it's like for two women but men are socialized to be the bread winner, top dog, macho, suppress emotions, etc ... .   Put two of us in a house together and, while love is love, the dynamics are very different. To this day I still struggle with dating.

Because of this, even a 20 year old tends to regress back to 13 when it comes to dating and then have to play the catch up game. The one thing I've noticed is that it doesn't take 7 years to get from 13 to 20. It's much shorter usually. So you will get there faster than you realize I'm betting.

Maybe by straight society you are behind but by gay society ... .   Well it's about right ... .   We all start out a bit behind ... .   Hopefully the day is coming when that will change and gay kids can grow at the same rate as straight kids ... .  

However, I'm going to point out something ... .   You can enjoy getting to go back to 13 while at age 30. It's scary but it's also fun to get to relive that part of our lives as an adult because the rest of us is more mature and we can make better choices ... .   It's fun to get to go clubbing or hanging out with friends until 3 a.m. ... .   Couldn't do that at 13 (at least not with my parents :-) ... .   I loved my early 20's ... .   It was great being 13 trapped in a 20 year old body ... .   You may find that you like being 13 in a 30 year old body ... .   Enjoy it because by the time you are 35 you will be 35 and will look back at your "teens" and miss them ... .  

So beating yourself up for being "behind" is very self-defeating. You are who you are right now. Take pride and joy in that. Just remember it could have been worse. You could have lived in the closet until you are 50 or 60 or 70 and then tried to come out. I've seen it happen and it's heart breaking. Those people have lost a lifetime of the joy and love they deserved. You are only 30. It's not old. You have plenty of time for everything.

Try to be kind to yourself ... .   From what I've read you seem to be attempting to do it all at one time ... .   No one can do that ... .   We all have limits ... .   You are going to ok :-)

[Finished]

I also just had a thought. Many times pwBPD are frozen emotionally at a younger state.

With your coming out at 30 ... .   Your dating emotional state was also younger ... .   So is it possible that part of the attraction was you were both emotionally closer to the same level?

If that is true ... .   Then consider this ... .  

You would have grown up emotionally and she wouldn't. Eventually you would have left her if she hadn't left you because you would have become an adult and the chances are that she never would have.

It might be that this was your "starter" relationship. It's just a thought.

[Seb]

Finished, I think you've touched upon some very valid points here.

It embarrasses me (oh gosh, more embarrassment!) to admit that I am probably way back, considering where I am with this being my "coming of age" relationship.  The funny thing is, when I was with my ex-boyfriend of 6 years, I felt very mature and wise. We had a very happy relationship and we ended on very amicable terms. I admit now that the level of love I had for him didn't compare to the love I felt for my ex, but we had a very calm and, what I thought, mature relationship. I don't feel like I deceived him - at the time I truly cared for him very deeply, and felt that was what 'love' was. It's only now I can look back and say that it wasn't the love I felt for my ex-girlfriend. We rarely argued, we were best friends and got on very well. That's why the shock ending and the nasty nature with my exgf truly shocked me. I've never fallen out like that with a partner. And for no reason  

But... .   I am starting over, and coming to terms with the fact that I am gay. So, yep, you're right, and so is SB. I am starting off at a very young age, lesbian-dating wise. I think I clung to my ex-girlfriend because I was scared I'd never find anyone that would love me as much as she did - and me her. I clung to her for so long after she'd dumped me because I didn't want to go back to how I was before. I had come out for her. Without her I would never have done it. So it was a devastating blow to be left high and dry like that - she knew what a risk I was taking, and she swore to me that she would never leave and love me always. I felt safe to come out, and then, three months later, she upped and left.

I can admit that I probably miss that aspect, having a person I truly loved. I miss being with her, I miss having a partner, lying next to her at night, and holding her hand - having a companion.  At first I thought that those feelings were exclusive to her - but they're probably not. I'm hoping they're not. When I think of her I still get those pangs of sadness and pain. I'm hoping that I can find all that happiness again with another girl, but real and longlasting this time, and reciprocal on her part.

I have no doubt what you said about me eventually leaving her is true also.  I was getting to the verge of tangible frustration with her. I was finding it increasingly harder to walk on eggshells around her, and tolerate her mini-meltdowns, her tears as the answer to everything. I was also finding myself becoming more uncertain of her, and felt that her secretive nature, her lies (which I knew of) kept me from trusting her. She would say one thing - and then do another. Whenever I pointed this out to her she would turn it around and have a meltdown, headbutting a wall, the waterworks, you name it. So yes, I was definitely becoming more aware of her emotional state - I remember telling my sister I was shocked at how emotionally fragile she was. Her reactions were also so disproportionate to the trigger. I was becoming more aware that something wasn't quite right.  But I stayed and was devastated when she dumped me, even though I had all of these thoughts - which says more about me I know.

At first I felt grateful for what she gave me, but I did feel as if I wanted more from her - more than she was showing she was able to offer me. I had begun to notice her not treating me as well as I thought she should, or once had. I didn't realise I was in the devaluation stage at this point. She was suddenly withholding sex, she was being secretive, irritable, and over-sensitive. She cried once because I didn't get up to welcome her at the door when she came in from work - forget that I was in the middle of doing work and was trying to meet a deadline. I had started to notice that she was becoming very different. I said to her one day, as we were lying in bed, "still treat me like new". She had definitely stopped doing all the cute little things I'd come to expect. I also pointed out to her that I felt she just loved the chase, such was the difference between the idealisation/devaluation. She was crazy about me when she thought I was hard to get, I was her mate's straight cousin. Once she had me, she definitely lost interest. Or at least that's how it felt.

So yes, as I grew in that relationship - or what felt like growth - she did show herself to be increasingly immature to me.  She dumped me after a week of her panicking that I was on the verge of leaving her. She text me multiple times in the week leading up to the break up looking for reassurance that I wasn't thinking of leaving her. I must have been showing my frustrations at her behaviour more and more. So yes, I think you're right, I probably would have ended it eventually. I hope!

SB, and Finished, thank you for pointing out the positives in all this - I can treat this as a fresh start. What a painful way to be inducted in to all this - with a disordered and wounded person - but without her I'm not sure I would ever have had this opportunity. So... .   maybe that's the silver lining in all this? She's given me the opportunity to finally learn to accept and love myself.

Good news is for me, I look young! I may be 30 but I'm constantly getting ID'd! Hopefully I'll keep being baby-faced for a few more years! I really should try to look at all the positives - I'm starting a new career that I love and I can start dating openly. Easier said than done. One day at a time, but thanks for helping me see the positives.

I would like to think that she meant all of those things at the time. I could sustain those feelings, and she can't. Hell, it's taken me such a long time to fall out of love with her. Even as she's showing me she's disordered, I still have strong feelings for her, and have to possibly accept that I will always love her on some level - hard to reconcile with myself, considering she's been so unkind to me. I have to let go of it, and always try to remind myself that this isn't personal. She tried her best, but couldn't sustain it. I tried too, and that's ok. I just wish the person I fell in love with could return that to me.

Thank you for making me feel less alone in all this.