How to develop interests as "half of a couple"

[Depression = 72% of members]

My H works hard and has been adamant about having his own time to do his thing. His hobbies are very guy thing, things I don't share. He does make effort to do some things with me, but I know they are not things he really enjoys. We have no friends as couples. He doesn't like socializing like that.

The arrangement we had, which formed in the early years of our marriage where he felt resentful that marriage restricted him and also for being the chief wage earner was that the house and kids were my job, and his job was his job as well as some man things ( in his mind ). In his free time, he was off to do what he wished. Since his job was demanding, I agreed that he should do this. To ask him to watch the kids would be an awful scene. If I wanted to do something, I would get a sitter.

Those of us who are responsible for kids can identify with the fact that kids are 24/7. There really is no "off time" even if one can get a sitter for a short break, but certainly not all the time. The kids come first. I basically functioned as a single parent for years- single meaning yes, my H did support us, but it was me and the kids most of the time, while H was at work. Yes, we did some family time, but that was much less.

Now the kids are older. I actually have some freedom but have no clue how to integrate into the social world or develop new hobbies. H still likes to do his own thing. Besides the kids, we don't have common interests. It is actually a good thing to not be together all the time- we'd fight, and also I don't want to be enmeshed. But I don't fit in well- my married friends do things in couples. When I go to some things I am the awkward spare wheel. I have female friends, but they do things with their husbands. I am not single so a singles group isn't appropriate. I am absolutely not looking for male companionship, so would not even want to go there.

One of my own issues is teamwork. We are not a team. Planning to do things together results in him doing something he doesn't want to do, but he feels obligated. He might even enjoy it, and sometimes he does, but he can not bring himself to agree a lot of the time. Sometimes I think that agreeing with me feels so engulfing that he has to disagree to keep from feeling that way, and also it maintains a position of control for him.

Often we just argue for no reason at all. His first response to a suggestion I make is often negative, so by the time we come up with an agreement, my enthusiasm is worn out. I don't mind doing things on my own, but when I am in a group of couples who seemingly enjoy the same things, I feel sad. So some activities just exacerbate the feeling of being a spare wheel.

I have struggles with being married yet living at least emotionally in a way as if I was single ( and not looking). This bother me more than it does my H. He's not cheating ,I know that, but emotionally, he is an island. He has tough emotional boundaries. I know he is attached, but he has to have a large degree of unattachment to not feel trapped and resentful.  I would like more teamwork, but that doesn't seem possible as it seems if he does something I want, it is a concession, not something he wants too.  I would be open to suggestions from others about how to carve out their own lives in an appropriate way, in a social world that is either single or couples, and I am not really either in the social world.

[Notwendy]

My H works hard and has been adamant about having his own time to do his thing. His hobbies are very guy thing, things I don't share. He does make effort to do some things with me, but I know they are not things he really enjoys. We have no friends as couples. He doesn't like socializing like that.

The arrangement we had, which formed in the early years of our marriage where he felt resentful that marriage restricted him and also for being the chief wage earner was that the house and kids were my job, and his job was his job as well as some man things ( in his mind ). In his free time, he was off to do what he wished. Since his job was demanding, I agreed that he should do this. To ask him to watch the kids would be an awful scene. If I wanted to do something, I would get a sitter.

Those of us who are responsible for kids can identify with the fact that kids are 24/7. There really is no "off time" even if one can get a sitter for a short break, but certainly not all the time. The kids come first. I basically functioned as a single parent for years- single meaning yes, my H did support us, but it was me and the kids most of the time, while H was at work. Yes, we did some family time, but that was much less.

Now the kids are older. I actually have some freedom but have no clue how to integrate into the social world or develop new hobbies. H still likes to do his own thing. Besides the kids, we don't have common interests. It is actually a good thing to not be together all the time- we'd fight, and also I don't want to be enmeshed. But I don't fit in well- my married friends do things in couples. When I go to some things I am the awkward spare wheel. I have female friends, but they do things with their husbands. I am not single so a singles group isn't appropriate. I am absolutely not looking for male companionship, so would not even want to go there.

One of my own issues is teamwork. We are not a team. Planning to do things together results in him doing something he doesn't want to do, but he feels obligated. He might even enjoy it, and sometimes he does, but he can not bring himself to agree a lot of the time. Sometimes I think that agreeing with me feels so engulfing that he has to disagree to keep from feeling that way, and also it maintains a position of control for him.

Often we just argue for no reason at all. His first response to a suggestion I make is often negative, so by the time we come up with an agreement, my enthusiasm is worn out. I don't mind doing things on my own, but when I am in a group of couples who seemingly enjoy the same things, I feel sad. So some activities just exacerbate the feeling of being a spare wheel.

I have struggles with being married yet living at least emotionally in a way as if I was single ( and not looking). This bother me more than it does my H. He's not cheating ,I know that, but emotionally, he is an island. He has tough emotional boundaries. I know he is attached, but he has to have a large degree of unattachment to not feel trapped and resentful.  I would like more teamwork, but that doesn't seem possible as it seems if he does something I want, it is a concession, not something he wants too.  I would be open to suggestions from others about how to carve out their own lives in an appropriate way, in a social world that is either single or couples, and I am not really either in the social world.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't have any suggestions. I want to follow this thread as I have been having some of the same experiences/thoughts. I have looked at meet up groups that are for females but none of them look appealing to me. I want somebody to do something with but don't know how to get out there and make friends. Sometimes, it feels like being that awkward kid in middle school all over again.

[formflier]

 I would like more teamwork, but that doesn't seem possible as it seems if he does something I want, it is a concession, not something he wants too.  

Can you explain the concession thing a bit more?

Why does it matter that he "wants" to do it ... .or not?

FF

[formflier]

 

Can you describe to us what "more teamwork" looks like?

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, the best way I can describe teamwork is players working towards a common goal. There can be different roles, the quarterback has a role, so does the kicker, but I assume that neither of them go on to make up their own plays without consulting the team. I assume that they share a common goal- to win the game, attend practice together and that they are both there because they both like football. They also may have their own interests outside football, but at least they share that.

With my H, I feel as if we are on different teams, with each one deciding whether or not to let the other one win. We don't share common interests, so if he comes along with me, I know he really isn't interested, and vice versa. I don't mind that we have different interests, but we don't seem to have shared ones.

Also, if I bring up an idea, he is likely to say the opposite. Sometimes I find myself JADEing, explaining myself. I hate that. I usually stop. I can't explain it, it is just a fantasy, but it would be the difference between saying " hey I like this, and him saying I like this too" or " I like this" "Well I like that, or why don't you like that".  I don't expect this all of the time. No two people are alike. I just wish I felt like there was some of it.

[formflier]

  so if he comes along with me, I know he really isn't interested, and vice versa. 

But... .he does come... .right?  And sometimes you go with him?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

With my H, I feel as if we are on different teams, with each one deciding whether or not to let the other one win. We don't share common interests, so if he comes along with me, I know he really isn't interested, and vice versa. I don't mind that we have different interests, but we don't seem to have shared ones.

Why is it so important to you that you have common interests? What did the two of you do before you had kids? What did the two of you do together when you were dating? I have been trying to dig into my memory banks and think about that stuff because, like you, there are times when it feels like we live in two different worlds.

I wonder if there is a way to shift your thinking so that you can see that you are on the same team. How did you raise kids together? How have you stayed married this long?

[vortex of confusion]

  so if he comes along with me, I know he really isn't interested, and vice versa. 

But... .he does come... .right?  And sometimes you go with him?

I think I understand what she is getting at. I am not sure if it is a BPD thing or a woman thing though. 

It reminds me of the song "I want you to want me". I can recognize that my husband and I both do things that we might not necessarily want to do or even enjoy doing. I have to watch myself because I know that I will sometimes get caught up in the whole, "Why doesn't my husband sincerely WANT to be with me and do stuff with me?" I want to be able to have him come with me without having that, I don't know how to describe it, attitude that is kind of reluctant. There are times when I feel like I am the last person on earth that he wants to hang out with and do stuff. The scary part is that if I 100% honest with myself, I feel the same way about him at times. I want both of us to enjoy being in each other's company and it is obvious at times that neither of us are feeling it.

[Notwendy]

Yes, it means a lot when he comes with me. His interests are out with the guys stuff and work related things where wives/ spouses are not included. In fact, much of what he does with the guys is exclusive so I don't have the opportunity to go with him.

I feel left out of much of that. I'm more interested in things like religion than he is. That is very family oriented. He will come with me sometimes but I often go alone.

We are not as religious as your family and so I don't mind that it isn't my H's thing, and that I go alone, but I don't feel there is a place for me among couples, families, and singles.

It isn't something we can both do for each other. His stuff is exclusive, and I feel I am dragging him to my stuff.

[Notwendy]

Vortex, most of the kids' younger years were when I was painted black. My H was gone most of the time- work, his interests, whatever. I raised them.

He did try to make things better, become more involved but raising the kids is my job. Sometimes we do things as a family but when he wants to. Sometimes I even forget to include him as I am so used to him not being available.

He expressed that he was very resentful of being tied down when the kids came along. It was not to find someone else. He did what he felt was his part as far as financially supporting us. But his resentment and anger was too much for me. I cut him loose, emotionally. He was free to come and go and do his own interests, as asking him to do something with us led him to accuse me of not letting him do what he wanted to do.

He has made some positive steps to undo this, but it is hard for me to forget this. For most of the time I have felt like a single person emotionally, even though I have been married and faithful the whole time.

Some of this is my fault. I think have bad memories when it comes to thinking of us as a couple- so that even if he is willing, I sometimes have a hard time believing it.

[Notwendy]

What did we do before kids?

It's strange- when we met we both had nice circles of friends, and did things as couple. We had shared friends as well. I knew who he worked with and was invited to his work related social events. I also worked and he was included in mine.

The change came when we moved while the kids were young for his job. He had a whole new world, and I was excluded from it. In fact, he didn't want me around his new job until he established himself, and now that he has, it is still a precedence. I have not known most of the people he works with since we moved here. I also don't know his friends.

I worked part time, but his job paid more. At this point, he did a complete Jeckyl /Hyde, announced that his position of main wage earner allowed him to call the shots. Prior to this he pitched in with the kids some. He denies saying this but one say he announced that he would not change diapers. If I asked him to do anything that involved the kids, he refused. If I expressed concern that we were growing apart, he would rage at me. After this we were like passing ships in the night. I built a life around the kids. He had his life. Sometimes he would step into ours but only when he chose to. Asking him to would not go well.

The main difference is that now that the kids are older, I have the void. His life is much the same. I am looking for ways to do more things as me, alone,  in that space.

I realize that I am fortunate that my H supports us and brings us financial stability. I think he is more willing to do things now that the kids are older, but he still likes to do his own thing. Problem is that I didn't feel I had the space to do my own thing and now I need to learn to do that. He is sometimes willing to step into my life, but after years of exclusion from his, I don't even know much about it.

We have grown apart in some ways but we function as a family in the basic sense. I think one problem is that I feel the divide more than he does. I think he prefers it this way, or he would have been concerned about it. This is why I want more to do on my own.

On rare occasions we have met up with friends from where we used to live years ago, and the difference is striking. It makes me wonder just how this happened. It was like I married someone else.

[formflier]

and I feel I am dragging him to my stuff.

I would recommend... .more dragging.  If he starts to complain... .let him suggest something you can do together... .

Watch actions... .not motives... .not desires... .

FF

[formflier]

  but it is hard for me to forget this.

How much of this is your fault... .?

Hmmm... .

Anyone want to suggest a better word that forget... .?

FF

[formflier]

  I think he is more willing to do things now that the kids are older, but he still likes to do his own thing. Problem is that I didn't feel I had the space to do my own thing and now I need to learn to do that. 

Is what you stated here healthy for him? 

Could you rephrase this to talk about his actions... .vice his motivations... .?

Great thread... .

Notwendy,

We've chatted before about some similarities in our r/s... .but with sexes swapped.  Very interesting and informative to me to get a female "reaction" or point of view... .I hope my first reactions also help.


FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I know that being co-dependent contributed to this issue, so I do accept fault in this. I didn't have a strong role model for being a wife and mom- so I was easily influenced by my H's moods and criticisms- which he blamed on me. Because my FOO had issues, I believed him.

I see your point in bringing someone along if they are willing, but not if they are angry about it. I had enough of "dragging him" along while he gave me the ST over it. I know that I didn't handle our disagreements well- lots of JADEing, crying, and being blamed for it which ended up with me sobbing and feeling like I was crazy. It was much easier to just let him be.

Forgiving is one thing, forgetting learned patterns is another- it is a work in progress for me. I should give him more credit for trying. These earlier arguments were more upsetting to me than to him at the time. He had his job- which although was a challenge and a responsibility- was also an area where he felt validated. I was mostly home with kids, feeling criticized. I fell apart.

I hope this view from the female side is helpful. I think many marriages deal with "men are from Mars women are from Venus" but when we bring poor relationship skills into them, these can be exacerbated.

I also think it is good for each person to have their own interests in a relationship. Much of what I did was related to the kids- schools, their sports. However, as they get older, I realize I need to make some effort- to join a women's group, book club, - independently. I started a job too, but would like some hobbies.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

and I feel I am dragging him to my stuff.

I would recommend... .more dragging.  If he starts to complain... .let him suggest something you can do together... .

Watch actions... .not motives... .not desires... .

Also, look at your different interests as opportunities to talk... .If he goes sometimes, at least he's familiar with the activity, people and events so when you go alone you can share your experiences with him (as your husband... .not girl-friend... .whole other topic  )

[Grey Kitty]

I'm thinking that developing interests, activities, and friends for you to invest time with is your best bet. You can invite him when it could work out... .but it isn't going to go well if you push him.

An old friend of mine once lamented the end of a large singles group associated with a church that was for singles to hang together and not feel incomplete as not part of a couple... .NOT as s meat market. Dunno if such things still exist near you.

[Fian]

My wife and I do things together, however it can be a challenge to find things to do together.  I love video games, and my wife does resent that I play them so much.  But we do spend time together too.  The way I look at it, together activities fall into 5 categories:

1.  She likes it, I do not.

2.  She likes it, I find some enjoyment in it.

3.  She likes it and I like it.

4.  I like it, and she finds some enjoyment in it.

5.  I like it, and she does not.

The key are items 2-4.  Don't expect to have a happy time if you are trying to force the other to do 1 or 5.  One way to try and not force him to do what he doesn't want to do is to tell him that you would like to spend more time with him, and ask him to suggest ideas on what he would enjoy doing with you.  You make suggestions too.  If he gives a strong negative action towards something, try and suggest something else.  Or maybe suggest something that neither of you have done to see if it is something that you might find that you would both enjoy doing.

Now, when he is doing something on his own, you still do need to do on your own.  One activity that my wife found some enjoyment in was sewing classes.  They were attended only by women, and you could go without your spouse.  You might find taking classes that fit your interest could be a way to spend some time with others.  You can also look for solitary activities.  My wife found that she actually likes some video games (although a different type than the ones I usually play).  So if we are watching a TV program that I like a lot more than her, she just starts to play one of her games instead.

[waverider]

I think this is a common problem, I have been through this. prolonged isolation can mean that living a component of your lives in parallel is alien.

To this end he knew early he needed an independent component and so has established this. you on the other hand never realized the importance and occupied yourself fully with family concerns, not leaving room for yourself. once the family side of it reduces you are left with a big hole. It is not just a matter of spending more time pursuing your interest as more of nothing is nothing. You are having to start from scratch.

Having him involved in your interests is probably as much about validating your interests as worthwhile, but it backfires as he is obviously reluctant.

I am a firm believer that it is healthy for someone to have their own stand alone interests without the requirement of partners shared enthusiasm, as there will always be a shortfall somewhere creating resentment.

The most common areas are sports and hobby related as you are with a completely fresh group of people who have a common enthusiasm for something. Trying to just make it social gatherings does leave that "something is missing" element.

More stereotyical gender orientated activities can be better for some people then there is no threat or guilting about not being expected to join in.

My particular thing is kayak fishing, and the other guys who also do it are seriously into it. It takes me out of my everyday existence and is great for recharging the batteries, providing a feed and keeping fit at the same time. My partner could not do this even if she wanted to, historically all her "interests" were mirrors of mine, typically she wouldn't stick to it as the enjoyment and enthusiasm doesn't come from her core. That would taint it for me. So she just lets me get on with this without feeling the pressure to mirror it.

My first few interests were less important to me and were really only practice runs to establish a precedent for developing my own thing. They were not important to me then any teething problems with establishing that precedent were not as upsetting. Dont underestimate the ability of your own interests to trigger abandonment dramas, so simply establishing your right to it can take some work

[Notwendy]

Waverider, I think you are right about the abandonment fears. I think that played into his refusal to watch the kids. A passive aggressive way for it to be harder for me to go and do something, because to do so, I would have to find a sitter.

I agree with you that it is a good idea to have our own interests. I have considered myself to be independent, and I did a lot of things on my own. However, once kids were here, I had to consider them.

I found that if I had an interest, he would be critical of it, call me "obsessed" with it. He has eased up a bit now.

[waverider]

Waverider, I think you are right about the abandonment fears. I think that played into his refusal to watch the kids. A passive aggressive way for it to be harder for me to go and do something, because to do so, I would have to find a sitter.

I agree with you that it is a good idea to have our own interests. I have considered myself to be independent, and I did a lot of things on my own. However, once kids were here, I had to consider them.

I found that if I had an interest, he would be critical of it, call me "obsessed" with it. He has eased up a bit now.

I faced a lot of resistance (and thats an understatement) to establish my own slice of the world, but it was well worth it and we are both better off for it now, so it is no longer resented. It is a bit like a boundary though and has to be fought for in a consistent way.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I have the opposite problem, because of jealousy and the fear of abandonment my uBPDw will want to do everything with me (that is, unless you can guarantee there is 100% chance that no women will be present).

So there's very little that I do, and can then share with her afterwards... .and then she'll complain we don't talk enough.  When we're discussing something we were both at I feel like a little old lady gossiping at the picket fence.

But somehow since she wants to do 100% of the things I choose to do she resents it when I don't want to do 100% of the things she wants to do. 

[waverider]

I have the opposite problem, because of jealousy and the fear of abandonment my uBPDw will want to do everything with me (that is, unless you can guarantee there is 100% chance that no women will be present).

So there's very little that I do, and can then share with her afterwards... .and then she'll complain we don't talk enough.  When we're discussing something we were both at I feel like a little old lady gossiping at the picket fence.

But somehow since she wants to do 100% of the things I choose to do she resents it when I don't want to do 100% of the things she wants to do. 

How do you feel about not having much time to do things for yourself?

[Notwendy]

Waverider- yes, these acts of resistance were subtle. I didn't really pick up on them. My H has traits, I would not call it full BPD, so in a way, ( except for raging) his actions are subtler than my mother's are. He hates it when I am gone and he is home, but that doesn't mean he is paying attention to me. He was quite happy to be reading or doing something but he wanted me home. So, if I started something he would complain, make comments, or just be unavailable and I would have to find a sitter. Because of the way I was raised, I didn't see this as a boundary to defend, and being a people pleaser, I would cut back on things that he seemed unhappy about. I did find this aspect of him to be odd. To me, loving someone would include encouraging them to do the things they were happy doing. I would have friends who went to women's groups, or dance class, or go running, and their husbands would naturally step in to watch the kids so they could do this. One friend of mine was very talented at decorating, and so at times, she would decide on her own to paint a room. My H would need to know every detail if I were to to that and argue over the choices I made- to the point where I lost interest in the idea in the first place.

It was as if what I wanted to do was debatable. My friends' H's knew that their wives needed some space in the marriage to be themselves. They may not like the color of a room, but they know that their wife does, and they are OK. They also have their likes expressed as well.

Mine seems to get upset whenever my personality emerges- and he sees that I may have different ideas, likes or dislikes. Since my tendency is to back down when I sense his resistance, I did. Now, I know I have to get past that.

Isitherorisisme- both responses, not getting too close- doing much of your own thing in a marriage and not doing anything alone is the result of poor boundaries. PwPD's can see their partners as extensions of them- so the idea that the partner has different ideas or interests isn't something they embrace. However, I think fear of engulfment can also play a part- which I think is why my H wants me around, but keeps his distance.

[waverider]

yes fear of loosing something can drive them, but having what they get as a result can be over bearing for them. hence the constant contradictions. Meanwhile we loose perspective trying to appease.

The appeasing needs to stop as a motivator, and that is not easy.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I have the opposite problem, because of jealousy and the fear of abandonment my uBPDw will want to do everything with me (that is, unless you can guarantee there is 100% chance that no women will be present).

So there's very little that I do, and can then share with her afterwards... .and then she'll complain we don't talk enough.  When we're discussing something we were both at I feel like a little old lady gossiping at the picket fence.

But somehow since she wants to do 100% of the things I choose to do she resents it when I don't want to do 100% of the things she wants to do.  

How do you feel about not having much time to do things for yourself?

It sucks... .Even today I'm going to stop by the office my sister-in-law works at to drop something off... .I'll get all sorts of questions about why I didn't let me w do it (after all, according to her, when she wants, that's her job).

when their goal is isolating you, but they can't openly express that it degenerates into an hour long discussion taking the scenic route to their real point... .

[waverider]

It sucks... .Even today I'm going to stop by the office my sister-in-law works at to drop something off... .I'll get all sorts of questions about why I didn't let me w do it (after all, according to her, when she wants, that's her job).

I used to get hauled over the coals for stopping off for a coffee while I was doing the shopping. Now I can dissapear for a large part of the day to do my thing and be back when i am back. It is possible but it means extreme drama to get there. For me this included trashing things, vile notes, self cutting, medication ODs etc

when their goal is isolating you, but they can't openly express that it degenerates into an hour long discussion taking the scenic route to their real point... .

Not sure if the goal is isolation rather a fear of not having a control or awareness of what you are up to, which comes from a deep seated mistrust in you, or anyone else, always expecting to be betrayed and abandoned. Isolation is the consequence.

Often it is a projection from someone who is deceitful themselves passing the same expectation of deceit on to others .eg I would be sneaky, so you are most probably the same'. This normalizes their own thought patterns.

I simply refused to go into endless discussion and consequent JADE about what I had been doing. I would go off and do something for myself if she continued down that path. Of course that added fuel to the fire, but repeated calmly and consistently. I stopped getting angry, I always came back and the sky did not fall down as a result. She eventually stopped seeing it as a threat.

Apart from giving me space it ultimately reduced some of her insecurities.

There is no easy way to do it though

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Not sure if the goal is isolation rather a fear of not having a control or awareness of what you are up to, which comes from a deep seated mistrust in you, or anyone else, always expecting to be betrayed and abandoned. Isolation is the consequence.

no easy way to do it though

Thanks, I'm still a little hesitant with the kids still in the house... .Or I'm just procrastinating... .

[formflier]

Thanks, I'm still a little hesitant with the kids still in the house... .Or I'm just procrastinating... .

Interesting... .

Might be a good thing to start a new thread on this... .I challenge you to write out a post about what you would like to do... .and how you think it would go at home... .we might be able to give you some pointers on doing it in a healthy way... .

Isolation stinks... .bad... .  So does feeling watched all the time... .

FF