My biggest fear :)

[Depression = 72% of members]

OK... . I am back and now I have a plan.  A good plan which has been vetted by a very experienced psychologist (experienced in BPD/ NPD/ PTSD) and I have our family doctor on board as well... .   I went down the road of splitting up temporarily but my heart was never in it.

So as I was enforcing boundaries he became very nasty (felt like I wasn't listening to him).  I believe that things escalated because I had inadvertently taken a very black and white stance on boundary enforcement. 

Those around me in the real world said ENOUGH!  If he doesn't get help then be done and move on!  Problem is that that isn't where my heart is.  Maybe that is the right answer for some but not me and not today.

I shared with the therapist that I believe for him to get help, he needs to be at least at a baseline (medicated for extreme anxiety and working a job that is consistent with his abilities).  Based on his personality and the BPD/NPD/OCD/PTSD mix if I left him today -- he'd just find someone else to suck onto and start the cycle all over -- never getting the help that he needs  I know that ultimately that is not my problem but I have a lot invested in this relationship including a son so I'm going to fight for it. 

1.  I spoke to him about the fact that I hear him that this job isn't going to work for him.  Now what are we going to do about it?  Agreed to apply for jobs and I agreed to help him look, help him submit resumes/ cover letters.

2.  He absolutely needs to be medicated for the anxiety/ aggression.  There is a clear physical issue that is handicapping him.  I got the name of a psychiatrist, have spoken with our family doctor, and have a referral ready.  He is a good friend of the therapist (a psychologist).  I also have the names of three proposed medications on hand... . one has none of the sexual dysfunction sides effects that would make my husband insane (or at least more insane than he already is ).  My husband will shortly have an appt with our family doctor and I am going to have her bring up the anxiety with him (already having been briefed by me).  I suspect that the floodgates will open - he's very emotional and really struggling and I bet she can convince him that there is a better way to live.  He's confiding in the applicance repair guy... . so I figure that he will open up with the GP that he respects!  Manipulative I know, but I have tried and failed at all direct routes.

3.  Once he is back on stable ground (yes I realize that this is probably a long shot but gotta try), get him into DBT therapy with the therapist under the guise of PTSD/ or relationship counselling.  The guy is absolutely considered a specialist and he assures me that he has had significant success.  He's happy to play whatever ruse will get him there.

4.  Work on my communication skills with my husband.  He still feels like I don't hear him/ care about him.  Next time things escalate - don't take such a hard stance.  It didn't do any good and he kept upping the ante on me.  I managed to stop the cycle on this last round by simply saying "stop treating me like this.  I don't deserve it."  It acknowledged that I was in pain from the things that he was going and didn't threaten him.

5.  I have already met with a lawyer/ got a separate bank account/ removed overdraft from our joint account so that if he completely flips a NUT I am prepared.  I now understand the local laws and my rights.  I also spoke to the police and have a contact who is prepared to come out here if hubby gets out of control with the sole intended purpose of calming him down.

Its a good plan!  I think!  I like it.  Back to feeling empowered

[allibaba]

OK... . I am back and now I have a plan.  A good plan which has been vetted by a very experienced psychologist (experienced in BPD/ NPD/ PTSD) and I have our family doctor on board as well... .   I went down the road of splitting up temporarily but my heart was never in it.

So as I was enforcing boundaries he became very nasty (felt like I wasn't listening to him).  I believe that things escalated because I had inadvertently taken a very black and white stance on boundary enforcement. 

Those around me in the real world said ENOUGH!  If he doesn't get help then be done and move on!  Problem is that that isn't where my heart is.  Maybe that is the right answer for some but not me and not today.

I shared with the therapist that I believe for him to get help, he needs to be at least at a baseline (medicated for extreme anxiety and working a job that is consistent with his abilities).  Based on his personality and the BPD/NPD/OCD/PTSD mix if I left him today -- he'd just find someone else to suck onto and start the cycle all over -- never getting the help that he needs  I know that ultimately that is not my problem but I have a lot invested in this relationship including a son so I'm going to fight for it. 

1.  I spoke to him about the fact that I hear him that this job isn't going to work for him.  Now what are we going to do about it?  Agreed to apply for jobs and I agreed to help him look, help him submit resumes/ cover letters.

2.  He absolutely needs to be medicated for the anxiety/ aggression.  There is a clear physical issue that is handicapping him.  I got the name of a psychiatrist, have spoken with our family doctor, and have a referral ready.  He is a good friend of the therapist (a psychologist).  I also have the names of three proposed medications on hand... . one has none of the sexual dysfunction sides effects that would make my husband insane (or at least more insane than he already is ).  My husband will shortly have an appt with our family doctor and I am going to have her bring up the anxiety with him (already having been briefed by me).  I suspect that the floodgates will open - he's very emotional and really struggling and I bet she can convince him that there is a better way to live.  He's confiding in the applicance repair guy... . so I figure that he will open up with the GP that he respects!  Manipulative I know, but I have tried and failed at all direct routes.

3.  Once he is back on stable ground (yes I realize that this is probably a long shot but gotta try), get him into DBT therapy with the therapist under the guise of PTSD/ or relationship counselling.  The guy is absolutely considered a specialist and he assures me that he has had significant success.  He's happy to play whatever ruse will get him there.

4.  Work on my communication skills with my husband.  He still feels like I don't hear him/ care about him.  Next time things escalate - don't take such a hard stance.  It didn't do any good and he kept upping the ante on me.  I managed to stop the cycle on this last round by simply saying "stop treating me like this.  I don't deserve it."  It acknowledged that I was in pain from the things that he was going and didn't threaten him.

5.  I have already met with a lawyer/ got a separate bank account/ removed overdraft from our joint account so that if he completely flips a NUT I am prepared.  I now understand the local laws and my rights.  I also spoke to the police and have a contact who is prepared to come out here if hubby gets out of control with the sole intended purpose of calming him down.

Its a good plan!  I think!  I like it.  Back to feeling empowered

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[allibaba]

6.  Continue having a good life for me and for my son.  He doesn't have to climb on board but we are definitely taking care of ourselves

[4now]

I am glad to see that things are on a better path.  You are to be applauded for your commitment to making it work.  You are following your heart on that one and a lot of people might not understand it, but I do and think you should follow what you feel is best to do. 

Your plan does sound like a solid one and it sounds very workable.  I wish you the best! I hope it all begins to come together for you and your family.

Take care!

[allibaba]

4now at least I know that if and when I get to the end of the line (where separating is the only option) then I exhausted all resources trying to find an answer and I will have some peace knowing that I have done my part.   

[Grey Kitty]

  I'm glad to see the empowered Allibaba back!

The plan sounds good to me. Having a whole team working on it sounds great! I really don't have much to add to it.

This part which is more looking back does leave me a few thoughts.:

So as I was enforcing boundaries he became very nasty (felt like I wasn't listening to him).  I believe that things escalated because I had inadvertently taken a very black and white stance on boundary enforcement.

I see two aspects of black and white absolute boundaries:

First, and very good, I do believe that boundaries work better when they are firm and clearly defined. Being vague or mushy with them simply doesn't work well.

Second, it is possible to miss the original point, which is protecting ourselves and our values by using boundaries. In the workshop BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence I found this quote:

Defending boundaries (without values) tends to be shallow, reactive, and confrontational

I will not tolerate you getting in my face (stated aggressively)

If you do things I don't like, I will respond by doing things that are equally distressing to you

You weren't there when I needed you, so I wasn't there when you need me

I don't see anything that you did like this, but it is something to watch out for.

My only other thought is that this is a time for as much genuine validation as you can manage, especially since your H is in a state where he can listen to you now.

[waverider]

The best thing about drawing up boundaries at this point is that you are doing it objectively, with advice and a clear head, rather than on the run and reactionary, which is what GK is referring to. When not clearly thought out they can be unbalanced and controlling.

Still be careful though this is still very much about you and how YOU interact, a pwBPD does not change overnight as a result of ultimatums and desperate promises.

The same triggers and issues are likely to arise a few weeks/months down the track. the real difference will be still be about how you will handle it. Your partner seeking T should be regarded as providing longer term results rather than the immediate future.

[momtara]

I just read your whole story.  It's very frustrating because he is really crossing some lines.  You are in a place that I was in two years ago - I figured out exactly how to tiptoe around him, and ignore threats, etc. and then he would calm down and I'd be happy that our family was normal again.  I was so used to doing this that I didn't realize how often I had to look over my shoulder, how many people I had stopped being friends with, how often I had to temper what I said, how nervous I was to get an email or a text from him, even during the good times... .

My husband also would figure out what mattered to me most and threaten it.  It starts killing the trust and love you have, even if slowly.

One weekend, I finally decided to stand up to it.  I pointed out obvious lies.  I caught him in others.  I provided proof.  I didn't back down.

So he called the cops and told them I had abused our son.  I guess I had always wondered how far he would go, and now I got to see.

I talked to various lawyers.  I really didn't want to rock the boat.  Like you, I saw my husband's good side.  But one lawyer pointed out to me that if the police had called child services, and our kids got taken away, I could spend weeks fighting to get them back.  One of our kids was a baby. 

Of couse, that's a worst case scenario, but I realized I had lost control of the situation.  It is NOT normal to have to worry that your husband, rahter than supporting all of your efforts to take care of the family and please him, constantly criticises them, then goes as far as to say you're an abuser!

Anyway, I got a restraining order because he had harassed me the day after all that too.  Then I dropped the order in exchange for a few things, like him being out of the house for a few months, going to a family therapist, etc.

The mistake would have been if I let him in too soon, without making a list of EVERY bad behavior that needed to change.  Not just some.  Everyhting.

It was only after all this that he finally started acknowledging his problems, and he still lied about some, until I said I was getting a divorce.

Not everyone is the same.  However, I encourage you to make a list of all the behaviors that are unhealthy and that he has to stop doing.  These guys get comfortable and go right back to your patterns.  If you could have weekly therapy for him or both of you, at least there would be another person in this matter who could butt in if things get bad.

I also want to warn you that he could get significant custody, possibly 50/50, as courts want to make sure both parents see their kids these days, and BPD is hard to prove.  The law works in your favor if you do most of the childcare, and especially if you live in the house.  So if one of you must move out, make sure it's him.

Standing up to someone like this is risky.  Yes, he may leave you.  I thought my husband would.  But he didn't.  Of course, the kids played a part in that.

I don't want you to get to be 60 years old and wished you hadn't had to live with so much fear.  I used to get diarrheah when my husband was threatening something.  It felt good when he went back to his non-stressed self.  But was that enough?

You should feel comfortable in your own home.  If you don't want to leave, you don't have to.  I just don't want it to get to a point where the police get involved, and it seems close.  I don't want to give advice, because I don't know how far your husband might go if you really DO stand up to him.  It is hard to know.  I just wanted to give you my perspective, that's all.  It may be truly worthless.

I will say this, though:  Carry a tape recorder.  He could get a restraining order vs. you just like you could get one against him.  If he threatens to hurt you, son, dogs, or anything else, at least having the recorder will be some proof of what you have endured.  A journal helps too.

[Rockylove]

   I am so happy that you're in a better head space... . I was concerned about you!  You're going to be fine... . regardless of whether he follows along or not

[allibaba]

Unfortunately I don't think that my husband and I are going to make it out of this one... .

Yesterday we went boat shopping (unbelievable, I know) but one of his primary complaints is not knowing enough fun people in our area (he's very social and we live in a very dull area).  I'd been talking to one of my friends who has lived here all her life... . and she suggested that we buy an inexpensive boat and get out on the many lakes.  So we went looking.  On the way to put the deposit on the selected boat... . I reminded him that we needed to stop at the grocery store there because we were out of his granola bars (I had packed the last one for the shopping excursion)... . we were the next street over and I had warned him that this errand needed to be done before we went home.  Well he lost it.  In the car, calling me a liar and a ' f b ' and a 'f c' who couldn't organize anything.  Clearly I don't love him because I don't care about him and don't listen to him and started listing the reasons that he hates me.  I started the day with him explaining that he will never leave our house and he will never get divorced... . he will grow old and be miserable and suck me dry for every penny. 

So my son is in the car -- and he starts driving like a lunatic (not to mention the verbal abuse).  I told him to please stop speaking to me like that or he needed to stop the car.  Well he slams breaks and yells 'get the f out'. I'm barely out of the car and he sped off.  He would have hurt me if I hadn't jumped out so fast.

I was about 20 min from home.  I flagged down the next car... . I live in the country and it was two young men going to bail hay at the family farm.  Come to find out the family farm was on my road and they took me the whole way home.  I got home to find that he had once again blocked me from getting into the house by putting our generator in front of the door in the garage. 

Momtara, Thanks for your thoughts.  I genuinely appreciate them.  I do feel that I am at the end of my road here.  Its odd.  Its very peaceful.  I previously thought that it would be some big drama that caused me to feel this way (odd that I don't consider being left on the side of the road a big drama - that probably speaks volumes).

I believe that there are some people on this earth that are sick and that can find help and have a better life... . and I believe that there are some people that are addicted to being mentally sick and abusing people.  I knew this before I started down the road to a healthy life.  I thought my husband was in the first category, but it occurred to me yesterday that I don't believe that he is.  I think that he's one of the second and I don't want to spend my life in turmoil.  If nothing else, if I don't get healthy... . I won't be healthy for my son and if I ever have another relationship I will carry it into that new relationship.

[allibaba]

I sent him a message saying:

"You are pushing me out of your life again.  Just like you did in 2008.  If you hate me/ can't stand me (which is how you act)... . tell me... . calmly and honestly... . and we'll figure out a way for your to get on with your life and find what makes you happy.  I'm not like your ex-wife.  I love you too much to be nasty to you."

I know that this message will do little but make him angry.  I'm ready for that.  I told him in no uncertain terms that he must stop blocking me from getting into the house.  I am going to calmly request that we separate.  I have done everything I can... . and he believes that I am his problem. 

I do honestly believe that I have a shot at having a good and healthy life without him.  I can be a good and stable parent.  With him in the house, there is no stability for our son. 

So what now.  I've sent the separation message over the bow and I am going to apply for a divorce based on emotional abuse.  He has every right to be in the house... . right up until the point that he blocks me from entry or puts my stuff at the end of the driveway (its coming).  If and when that happens I will go to court to apply for an ORDER for exclusive possession of the house... . and kick his butt out.  I don't want it to come to that... . but if it does.  I will.

     

[waverider]

That's so hard, I sense a real feeling of resignation, even relief, as though the hard decision has been taken away along with doubt.

[allibaba]

You are spot on waverider... .

Resignation, feeling that I don't have a choice, mixed with some relief.

Knowledge that I am about to enter hell... . mixed w the feeling that it doesn't really make a difference because I am already in hell.  He wants the comfort of being able to abuse me and he wants a free ride in life.  If at any point he made an effort perhaps I could reconsider.  But he prefers the status quo and that's not good enough.

[allibaba]

And I have finally realized that its ok to leave him without some big incident.  I don't need to get hurt for it to be ok to dissolve our marriage.  There is a weird sense of calm.  I won't go into details -- but he has hurt me before... . physically.  Never bad enough to require medical treatment... . but bad enough that it had an impact.  He has hurt all of my dogs before.  Two needed serious surgery (one happened in 2008... . the other in 2010)... . vet bills of $5,000 collectively.  One is lucky that she is alive.  Both were accidents... . but does not make it ok?  No.  I am coming out of the fog here... . why I am working so hard to help this man?  Why have I protected him?

While I feel that he would only hurt me in a rage, the rages are frequent.  Let's be honest.  :)o I really want to live like this?  I know that I can't expose my son to this.  It was ok when I thought that the rage was an extinction burst and that the behavior would become extinct... . but I now doubt that.

I am grateful to this site because its teaching me how to be healthy... . and I can finally separate his unhealthiness from mine.  I came into this relationship really broken 10 years ago.  :)espite the craziness, I actually feel like a much better more whole person.  Ironic isn't it?

[patientandclear]

Allibaba, a couple of things.

IF your H is in the first category -- someone who can make himself learn and get better -- it probably will not happen IN your r/s.  He sounds like he is similar to my exH, the man (not BPD) that I've written to you about before -- I needed to be gone, gone, gone, for quite a while, before he could see that I was not the source of the bad feelings.  So long as I was there, he could not resist the temptation to find me to be the source of all that was wrong, and to expect me to be the solution.

Your H is his own solution but I think he cannot see that with you there.

Which is why an actual ending is probably the greatest gift you can give him.  Then the decision about whether to be in the first or second category is really posed.  You'll find out in time which it is.  By that time though, I doubt you'd want to resume.  My loving feelings toward my exH just cannot be restored, it turns out.  I admire a lot of what he's done since & I will always care about him, and he's the father of my kid, so we will always be connected, but -- my tenderness and romantic love toward him was finally killed by so much mistreatment and abuse.

(And that left me open to fall in love with a man wBPD!  But that's another story.)

You are being very brave to put out there, for yourself and for us, things like the injury to yourself in the past and the injury to the dogs.  I know it's hard to actually say those things, knowing that they have implications about what you should do that you've not wanted to pursue for a long time.  I've been there too.

I hope you don't mind if I flag for you that your communications with him today put him in the driver's seat.  :)o you really want to do that?  "If you want to push me out of your life ... . tell me ... . and then we will ... . ".  ?  :)oes he really need to take further steps for you to decide?  Is this up to him?  What if he doesn't follow your loving, logical and sensible instructions about how to proceed?

You seem to be saying that if he desists/since he desisted blocking your access to your house you will resume with him.  ?  Is that where you are?

I think you are onto something important when you observe that being left by the side of the road doesn't feel like a major incident.  Was your son still in the car with him?  While he was driving like a lunatic?  Was your son in the house with him when he had barricaded you out?  These are major violations of your right of access to your child, the vulnerable person you (between the two parents) are best situated to protect and care for.  I really identify with this sort of "desensitization" toward extreme behavior.  It happened to me in my marriage.  Sort of like "well, I already endured that horrible thing last week, and this isn't more horrible, so, there's no new line being crossed."  It's very much like the frog in the pot of water being brought slowly to a boil -- there's no bright line.

Yet today something in you is telling you yesterday's events mattered.  I just want to validate the heck out of that instinct.  It is so hard to hang onto when you're the frog in the pot, but: jump out now!  You're in time to save yourself and your son.

I know it's scary but it seems like it's time for you to switch into decision/action mode.  Because of XYZ you, Allibaba, are doing ABC.  No bargaining with him.  Your messages to him convey that maybe you are still waiting to see if he will do what you want ... .

[arabella]

Just wanted to reach out with a

I know this feels like the end of the road. It some ways it is, but I think it is also the beginning of a new road. The one you were on wasn't going anywhere good so you're making the decision to change directions.

All of those things you listed in your plan (a few posts up)? They can still happen. Your H can still get help. You can still be there - just at more of a distance. Hold on to that feeling of empowerment! I agree with patientandclear, the ball is in your court now, don't give away your power. Be brave.

[patientandclear]

... . and now I feel like I've violating the "righting reflex" point that someone (UFN? WR?) posted here a bit ago -- you yourself wrote that you were ready to take some actions, and now here I come along urging you to take those actions, and maybe that will unconsciously trigger an instinct to defend against the advice you were already giving yourself.

I'm sorry!

You yourself are being a hell of a guide for yourself.  Just follow what you know.

[Grey Kitty]

All I have to say is    Stay strong, allibaba! You will get through all this.

That and I'm sorry to hear how things are turning out.

 GK

[momtara]

I'm sorry this happened.  But he is putting you and your son in physical danger and your son should not grow up thinking this is how you treat someone.  I know what it is to be attached.

The email you sent is excellent.  It gives him the responsibility for causing the split, so he can't blame you.  It takes the high road so he can't say later that you were just as bad.

It concerns me that he keeps blocking you out.  He could fight for at least 50/50 custody out of spite.  He should leave, not you.

It also concerns me that you have none of htis behavior on tape.  These guys can lie.

Document, write it in a journal.  Lawyers can give free consultations.  See if you can file a motion to get him out of the house.

I don't know how it is in your state, but sometimes filing for divorce based on emotional abuse isn't muh better than just filing a no fault divorce.  It just means bringing up a lot of evidence, spending more money, and having to prove stuff.  SO talk to several lawyers to see the best way to go.  

Courts also sometimes don't factor emotional abuse of the mother into how they decide custody of the kid.  If your husband is a good dad, then having it split equally isn't so terrible, maybe, but you want to at least have equal if not more time with your son.  So make sure you keep (or get) your own records of what you do - bring him to the doctor, etc.  If you have school memos`

, recepits, etc, get those too.

YOu need to separate, in my opionion, until he commits to real change and shows evidence of it - not just half change.  You are living a life in which you can't even say the wrong thing or mention granola bars without him being set off.  He knows he can ontrol you.  You are being as kind and loving as anyone can.  Having to have your dogs threatened?  Telling you to leave the car?  These are bordering on physical abuse.  

It almost caused you physical harm.  Your son does not need that.

I was hesitant to leave my husband.  I know that good men are hard to find.  But you have to start thinking of yourself as your own team, and your son is on it.  :)ocument, be smarter than he is.  

You will realize how good it feels to be able to breathe, when you have a little distance and are around normal people who aren't afraid of making mistakes with their spouses.

Believe me, I get it.  Please keep

posting.

[momtara]

and please get a micro tape recorder and keep practicing with it.  stick it in your sock if you have to.  use it every time you talk to him on the phone.  save any texs and emails with him claiming your dogs have disappeared.  of course, he will have locial explanations about all of this.  that's why you need to just keep taping.0111111111

[momtara]

sorry - logical explanations.  my kid is messinG WITH MY KEYBOARD!

[waverider]

This topic has now been locked as it has reached 4 page limit

It is also now more appropriate to the Undecided Board to avoid run messages being promoted on the Staying Board.

The latest posts have been opened as a new thread on the Undecided Board

Re: My biggest fear, Continued from Staying Board

Waverider