Resiliency: Seven steps

[Harri]

Psychological resilience exists in people who develop psychological and behavioral capabilities that allow them to remain calm during crises/chaos and to move on from the incident without long-term negative consequences. Psychological resilience is an evolutionary advantage that most people have and use to manage normal stressors.

Resilience is not a trait that people either have or do not have. It involves behaviors, thoughts and actions that can be learned and developed in anyone. [Taken from the American Psychological Association https://tinyurl.com/ydfvzm2 ]

Ms. Brand's [author of “The Best Kept Secret: Mother-Daughter Sexual Abuse”] steps to resiliency are as follows:

  1. Awareness:  Victims first need to gain clear knowledge of the trauma that they experienced.

 2. Separation:  There must be a fundamental psychological separation from the abuser.

 3. Connection: Victims need opportunities to connect with healthy, safe adults: advocates, teachers, relatives, coaches, mentors, therapists.

 4. Responsibility:  A meaningful, positive self-concept grows out of successive acts of responsible behavior.

 5. Empathy:  To become a survivor, one must demonstrate both awareness and empathy.

 6. Laughter: To be able to laugh at particular circumstances requires us to step back and to assume a new point of view.

 7. Compassion and love for self and others:  The victim’s psychological, philosophical and spiritual interpretations of his or her traumatic experiences are critical, often overlooked parts of the recovery process.

So who wants to take an in depth look at resiliency in the context of healing from the childhood abuse we experienced?  We can share what worked, areas we still need help with, or even if we are just starting out.

[Learning2Thrive]

So who wants to take an in depth look at resiliency in the context of healing from the childhood abuse we experienced?  We can share what worked, areas we still need help with, or even if we are just starting out.

Yes, I would. I’m headed to bed right now so will check tomorrow to see what the assignment may be.

Good topic, Harri.

L2T

[Harri]

I'll be looking forward to hearing from ya! 

Assignment?  Start wherever and talk about whatever.  Tis a casual convo!

   Sleep well.

[Turkish]

#6. I have a "sick and twisted" sense of humor as my T observed. It helps me cope. And it's funny.  If it amuses me,  mission accomplished.  Humor in a dark world. 

What are the other points again?

[Learning2Thrive]

I don’t want to overload one post, so I will deal with each step separately.

1. Awareness

It took me decades to become fully aware of the magnitude of abuse that occurred.

At the time when the childhood abuses were occurring, as the oldest child my expected role was to rescue and protect my siblings by bearing the brunt of the abuse (verbal and/or physical) and then console/comfort the abusers to de-escalate the situation.

In current verbal or emotional abuse situations (much lower level situations), I am generally able to recognize the abuse pretty quickly but often have a freeze response to it (ignore it/say nothing) the first time, giving the person benefit of doubt and make a mental note to be more aware/prepared/cautious for the next interaction.

L2T

[Skip]

The Survivors Guide (right margin) has 3 Sections - Remembering (steps 1-7), Mourning steps 8-14), Healing (steps 15-21). Click on each step to get a popup explanation of each.

Is there anything significant that is in one plan model and not the other?

[Skip]

They both start with awareness... .

I am in a breakthrough crisis, having gained some sense of my abuse.

REMEMBERING [Step 1]: For many survivors, this first step represents the first sign that their past has caught up with them. Survivors at this point often experience a "breakthrough crisis": something happens to release a flood of old memories, feelings and even physical sensations of the abuse. Although this crisis does not necessarily destab ilize all survivors, for many it can be the most harrowing time in recovery, and it often provides the impetus to finally face the past.

For those of you who experienced less severe abuse, the breakthrough crisis may manifest itself not as a new crisis, but rather as a low-grade, perpetual state of disorganization in which everything that can go wrong does go wrong. This reinforces your anxiety, depression and shame all your worst feelings about yourself. Survivors of extreme and prolonged physical and/or sexual abuse in which terror or violence typically occurred often experience a more dramatic breakthrough crisis. This is usually triggered by some event: seeing a movie, engaging in a relationship that unexpectedly turns abusive or having a sexual experience that somehow parallels the childhood sexual abuse. This leaves you feeling like the scared little child again, lacking any sort of adult control over your life. You may even think you are going crazy and may come up with all sorts of possible explanations for what is going on.

As a child, you developed formidable psychological defenses to protect yourself against this massive assault, and you probably continued to rely on these rigid defenses well into adulthood, until they no longer worked for you. This is where you may be now. In a breakthrough crisis, your psyche realigns itself in order to bring the past into harmony with the present. Like an earthquake, this realignment results in the release of powerful feelings and energy, and can create periods of disorganization, helplessness and incredible fear. If you are a survivor of truly severe abuse, you may have mini-breakthrough crises as each new set of abuse memories surfaces, although these smaller crises are usually not as tumultuous as the first.

The breakthrough crisis is actually quite normal, although it certainly does not feel normal to you. Crises are scary. You have been used to screening out all stimuli that might trigger your out-of-control feelings, only to feel that now you have lost control over your mind. Although it is frightening to do so, it is best in the long run to let these feelings out. Rest assured that this is a temporary experience which will gradually subside as you express feelings and develop a more flexible type of control over your life.

Although the breakthrough crisis is normal, you should take special precautions during this time to preserve your safety and to promote healthy integration of these memories and feelings. Anyone is vulnerable in a crisis, and there have been reports of survivors attempting suicide or engaging in other self-destructive behaviors in response to the crisis. Remember that the Chinese definition of crisis translates to "danger and opportunity." Your task during the breakthrough crisis is to minimize the danger to yourself by reaching out for help while riding the tidal wave of feelings safely into shore.

1. Awareness:  Victims first need to gain clear knowledge of the trauma that they experienced.

[isilme]

1. Awareness:  Victims first need to gain clear knowledge of the trauma that they experienced.

Trying.  Even at 41, I am still learning what things were actually quite off, or strange.  When you don't know how other families work, it's hard to know yours is messed up, or that you are being abused.

"Mother is the name of God on the lips and hearts of all children." - Byron (I think, I read it in The Crow graphic novel, it's in the movie).

I read the part where Eric reforms a junkie mother for the sake of her little girl.  It was very hard, as I'd hoped and wished mine could "just love me enough" to rehab herself.  I know in my mind it's not that simple, and her inability to change had little to do with what she felt was love for me.  

Anyway, I think this is a step that repeats over and over as you see more of life, see how your friend's families work, etc.

2. Separation:  There must be a fundamental psychological separation from the abuser.

Agreed.  I needed to be apart from both of them to hear my own voice in my own head.  And to grow strong in myself at all, to be less enmeshed.

3. Connection: Victims need opportunities to connect with healthy, safe adults: advocates, teachers, relatives, coaches, mentors, therapists.

This can be hard.  I want to like people and be liked, but I know I have trouble with some black and white thinking.  I want to share with someone "all good" but that is a unicorn.  I am finding safe adults as an adult.  As a teen, and a child, I trusted no one.  Anytime I did share, it was repeated back to my parents and I was punished for daring to talk.  Even my stepbrother "narced" on me for telling him how strict my dad was.  Hell, H's mom made a few unfortunate comments when we were just starting to date and our parents met that got me slapped for claiming to be "Cinderella".  All I did was honestly describe my day (chores... .more chores, childcare for step-siblings kids.  stepmom was exacting in house cleaning and care for her grandkids).  

4. Responsibility:  A meaningful, positive self-concept grows out of successive acts of responsible behavior.

Not sure about this one.  Is this saying we need to not sit in victimhood, blaming forever the misfortune we faced and accept that we have power to have a better life as an adult and not visit this pain onto others?  That's what I'm getting, it's what I hope I manage to try to do.  I want to be a survivor, not a victim.  

5. Empathy:  To become a survivor, one must demonstrate both awareness and empathy.

I hope I have appropriate empathy.  Sometimes I feel it's too much, others I worry I've turned off too many emotional switches to avoid pain.  

6. Laughter: To be able to laugh at particular circumstances requires us to step back and to assume a new point of view.

My earliest defense mechanism.  Jokes that to others are on the dark side, a bit inappropriate.  

7. Compassion and love for self and others:  The victim’s psychological, philosophical and spiritual interpretations of his or her traumatic experiences are critical, often overlooked parts of the recovery process.

Not sure where I stand on this.  Back to step one, it ping pongs back and forth a bit as I remember something new, make a connection I'd missed, so this is not a straight set of "steps" to follow in a line and be done, but a repetitive cycle of things to keep in mind for the rest of our lives.  

[zachira]

Sometimes remembering or actually ever becoming aware of what the trauma is, are not a required part of recovery and can be detrimental to a person's recovery as the attempts to recover memories is just too destabilizing. Bottom up therapies like Sensory Motor Therapy work to ground a person in their body and to acquire a felt sense of self which allows for stabilization and having a sense of well being. Top down therapies like Cognitive Behavioral often rely too much on memory work, and are often ineffective with the most severely traumatized people. Pre-verbal memories which occur before 2 years of age are not recoverable in a verbal form, and this is often true with severe traumatic memories that occurred at any time in the life cycle. There is hope for recovery from severe trauma, even for those who may never really be able to know what actually happened.
 

[Harri]

L2T Good work.  Awareness is tricky because trauma can resurface and each time there can be a new aspect or we are able to identify something that either adds to the picture or changes it even in slight ways that leads to new insight about the impact of the abuse.  Putting a name on our experience is empowering and puts the responsibility for the act where is belong, on our abusers.

Skip, I think the two are complimentary for sure.  They offer different ways of looking at the same thing.  The Survivors Guide is a fuller, more specific outline.  Just a different way of looking at recovery which is something very complex and confusing (for me anyway).  Anything that will help me have surer footing is good.  I do think that the steps to resiliency can help not just those of us who are trying to heal ourselves but offer more pro-active ways of helping us, our kids, etc work through trauma.  For me, thinking about developing resiliency is a more active process and is empowering in ways that the survivors guide does not give me. 

When I first came across this particular list, what caught my attention was when Julie Brand said (paraphrased) that when looking at the ACEs* the damage does not have to be permanent... .the damage can be abated if intervention, focused on developing resiliency, is implemented.

*ACE refers to Adverse Childhood Experiences.  My notes from Julie Brand's talk:
ACE study:  Adverse Childhood Experience questionaire by Kaiser Permanente. see also; https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280739.0   
ACE study: 10 question survey answered by 17k people.  Identifies and clarifies link bet ACEs and long term physical and mental health issues. W/o addressing the issues the survivors stay victims and are at risk for health issues, addictions, etc.   1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 males experience some sort of sexual abuse. 

Lots of people with high ACEs are doing fine though.  What makes the difference?    Early intervention is important.  Resiliency!  A big negative is not dealing with the abuse.

A bit of an aside but I think very pertinent to any conversation about resiliency on this site, not just for us but also for parents in relationships with a mentally disordered person:  The problem with thinking that we’re utterly resilient, that this positive inclination cannot be damaged or destroyed, is that it ignores the possibility of negative events affecting the kind of people we become. Negative events might include missing out on meaningful relationships in our early years, not getting the kind of nurturing we need through a major life transition, or, at the extreme, experiencing abuse or neglect. From The myth of Resilient Children:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/encountering-america/201302/the-myth-resilient-children

Okay, so I think part of what I am getting at with the difference between the Survivors Guide and The steps to resiliency is that the Survivors Guide is more self focused, more 'let's see where we are' and resiliency list is more proactive and can be a guide for parents or even those of us struggling to find a direction to work with our inner kids and help us heal.  As a note, there are many lists of how to develop resiliency online.  I find this one particularly relevant for us here.

Skip, how do you see it?  Is resiliency not a good place to focus our efforts?  How does it fit with the Survivor's Guide in your mind? 

Isilme, I am not forgetting you... .I will be back!

[Harri]

Turkish, I almost missed you!  Horrors!

Yes, I think you have the humor down.  It is a good way to distance yourself and put the abuse in a different context.  I think though it can be used to hide or avoid dealing with the pain.  There is a balance that must be reached, as with anything.  Detaching rather than avoiding, gaining perspective rather than engaging in rumination... . 

Resiliency is a choice and a mind-set.

Isilme, thanks for joining! 

With "Connection: Victims need opportunities to connect with healthy, safe adults: advocates, teachers, relatives, coaches, mentors, therapists." I read it to mean just being around more healthy positive people not necessarily sharing my story.  Just going out to the store and watching a family interact at the check out... .especially if they have kids.  Are they patient, flustered, etc. helps me feel connected.  having relationships with others who are natural nurturers like teachers, coaches ... .all are good for giving confidence and a feeling of self worth without necessarily needing disclosure of our history. 

Isilme (regarding Responsibility):

Not sure about this one.  Is this saying we need to not sit in victimhood, blaming forever the misfortune we faced and accept that we have power to have a better life as an adult and not visit this pain onto others?  That's what I'm getting, it's what I hope I manage to try to do.  I want to be a survivor, not a victim.

More from Julie Brand:
Victims gain independence by learning to be responsible for their own behavior. They need safe opportunities to practice being responsible and adults to supervise them and to help them process their experiences. So yes, very much so.  To me it speaks of owning our own behaviors and reactions, not blaming others for what is ours to own.

I think Julie Brand is talking about being in a place where it is okay to make a mistake, to work through an issue and have  support and understanding coupled with firm boundaries from a person who is not going to get into the weeds with us.

With regard to empathy, it is good to have empathy for others, but we need to have it for ourselves.  We need to be able to see us as a small defenseless and innocent child who did not deserve to be treated in abusive ways.  I used to feel self-loathing and contempt for being dumb enough and naive enough to be so taken in by the lies and delusions of my mother.  I haven't felt that way in a long time.  I can now see me as I would look at any other little kid going through the same thing and feel nothing but protectiveness, love and compassion and anger for the way they are being treated... .and a determination to make changes in their life.

To me, the fact that you ping pong back and forth with the last one on loving yourself and others and compassion makes sense as healing is not a linear process. 

Thanks everyone for your comments.

[Harri]

Sheesh!  What is wrong with me?  I keep forgetting to respond to people!  grrrr... .

Zachira, that is true.  Memories are not required but knowing that abuse did occur is I think.  There has to be some sort of awareness for sure.  Thank you for making that clear.

[JNChell]

Harri, it’ll be a moment before I can contribute here. I just wanted to stop by to say hello, and that I hope you’re doing well.

[Learning2Thrive]

2. Separation - Yes. Very necessary.

I made many small and large attempts at separation from my late teens thru mid 30s, including moving thousands of miles away. Then, joining the military. She still kept trying to keep me bonded emotionally to her FOG. I separated (emotionally) from my mother about 90% while in my mid-40s but didn’t have knowledge or full understanding of what was really going on. That kept a glimmer of the impossible dream alive.

 I’ve only recently discovered much deeper layers of deception, manipulation and reality. No more. Please. Thank you. Whew... .I am glad that part is over.

I like being my own self.

  L2T

[Harri]

Physical separation is important and even necessary sometimes for healing to occur.  You can't heal in a place where the abuse is ongoing that's for sure.  

Separation also and maybe more importantly refers to a psychological separation.  "There must be a fundamental psychological separation from the abuser.  If victims continue to identify with their familial perpetrators, they may minimize the abuse, make excuses for the abuser and deny the degree of harm. Victims must perceive themselves as different from their abusers—not of the same character. They must make the conscious choice to separate."

Harder with relatives who were the abusers.  Separation can be physical, emotional, psychological.  the last is the most important.  "i am not like her, I will not be like her, I have a diff character, would never do that to my kid or another kid".

The closer the perpetrator is the harder it is to separate.  With parents where it went on for years or was subtle and covert the clarity is hard to reach.  "mom touched me, she knew what she was doing and it was her fault"  Connect with strong healthy people who will confirm you as a survivor not a victim.  

The above quote is taken from Julie Brand M.S. and her talk on Resiliency.  Her steps were developed to help those of us who were sexually abused by our mother's but they can apply to healing from any type of abuse.

L2T wrote:  

She still kept trying to keep me bonded emotionally to her FOG. I separated (emotionally) from my mother about 90% while in my mid-40s but didn’t have knowledge or full understanding of what was really going on. That kept a glimmer of the impossible dream alive.

Understanding and labeling the abuse as abuse is so important.  We gain strength by doing so even if the process sometimes brings us to our knees.  Emotional/psychological separation is so hard to achieve.  I was still enmeshed only 15 years ago... .and I don't mean just tied to her in my head but my whole life, still living at home.  So I am still finding areas where I am emotionally tied.  almost every trigger I have can be traced back to her and the abuse... .if I am still being triggered, even with her dead, how free am I really?  

L2T, what has helped you detach emotionally, other than physical distance?  For me it is awareness, labeling the abuse and taking action of my own.  Developing a sense of agency in how I respond to the abuse now as an adult gives me a sense of power that I never had as a kid or even as an adult still living in the midst of all the abuse and chaos.  I was just reading about sense of agency and how important it is and how we get a sense of power and ability by working on healing... .it gives a purpose and sense of power.  As you can tell, I was quite affected by what I read.  I feel like I now have the words to describe part of my healing journey... .which is another thing that helps:  sharing and writing things out helps me process.

[Learning2Thrive]

Harri wrote:

L2T, what has helped you detach emotionally, other than physical distance?

Being able to speak about the abuse outloud and share it safely with people who actually heard me and believed. At last. Therapy... .and here... .and bits with trusted friends.

I’m very sensitive to not being believed about the abuse (or even the perception that someone may not believe me). Having been FOG’d and gaslit from early childhood, I learned not to trust anyone—including my own memories even though I viscerally KNEW my mind wasn’t lying to me and the whole situation was so wrong. I fiercely stand up for my truth now. I am more skilled in choosing who I can safely share with.

However, this last summer I suffered several emotional flashbacks from a few (relatively benign) work situations that were pretty overwhelming.

Ongoing self-education and drive for self improvement has been critical for my growth.

L2T

[Learning2Thrive]

3. Connection  - Interesting that looking at my answer to your question above, connection is what I think has helped me progress toward healing and resilience. You have been a big part of that, Harri. From reading your posts over the years, I felt a connection to you and empathy for your experiences. Not saying I experienced everything you did or that you experienced everything I did, but the level of betrayal by our mothers is quite similar.

Feeling a sense of family here with my sisters and brothers who also endured and are seeking a path toward healing makes life more bearable and even enjoyable in ways healthy (from birth) people probably can’t relate to.

L2T

[Libra]

1.   Awareness:  Victims first need to gain clear knowledge of the trauma that they experienced.

I was very late with this. It took the caretaking of my terminal FIL and his ill wife in 2017 to make me realize that I CAN actually give, be empathic, and am not a bad person. It took the next rage from my mother to see that this was not normal, and that I did not have to take this over and over again.
In a sense, I worked it backwards: my self-worth improved, which allowed me to take a step back and start standing up for myself.
I am 42 now. 42 years of thinking I’m not good enough. It’s crazy…

2.   Separation:  There must be a fundamental psychological separation from the abuser.

This started with daring to go NC with my mother after her last rage. I think it was the most painful thing I have ever gone through. It made me physically ill and largely emotionally unavailable to my primary family for a couple of months. I could not have succeeded without the support of DH, this board and T.
I still need to work on it, though I have made lots of progress: I no longer feel I have to fix everything for my mother. I can leave her feelings with her. I am a separate person now.

3.   Connection: Victims need opportunities to connect with healthy, safe adults: advocates, teachers, relatives, coaches, mentors, therapists.

Yes. But how do we know if someone really is healthy or safe? I had a very isolated childhood. It was just the 4 of us, almost always. I have only recently realized how extremely lonely I really was. My best friend in our second to last house was a rosebush! I managed to somewhat break out of that confinement in my teens, only to get sucked into other unhealthy dynamics. When I’d finished middle school I was convinced of staying on my own for the rest of my life, and I definitely did not want any children. It is a miracle I found a grounded, safe partner in DH. I took a huge leap of faith, getting married at 24. I am still grateful every day for the relationship we have and the growth it has allowed me.

4.   Responsibility:  A meaningful, positive self-concept grows out of successive acts of responsible behavior.

This goes back to what I said at awareness: It took great emotional input and upheaval to start believing in myself. This clearly had to happen outside of the primary family environment (because that environment is so ‘tainted' with expectations, tradition, etc.). My FIL was no angel, but he always treated me with respect, boundaries and - at the end – unspoken gratefulness. This gave me a new belief in myself. Smaller achievements across the years did keep me going, but never gave me the catharsis I had last year.

5.   Empathy:  To become a survivor, one must demonstrate both awareness and empathy.

I have both now. But not always at the right moment. Healthy empathy requires distance, objectivity. It means validating, walking alongside someone. It does not require you to take on the other persons’ feelings, nor the responsibility. I have a long way to go yet …
And I want to be more than a survivor!

6.   Laughter: To be able to laugh at particular circumstances requires us to step back and to assume a new point of view.

Unfortunately I lack this with regards to emotions. It is my brothers’ defense mechanism. I take everything to heart, I see it as my responsibility. Is this ‘trained’ behavior, purely character related, or a mix? I strongly suspect I will not suddenly get a wicked sense of humor after 42 years though.

7.   Compassion and love for self and others:  The victim’s psychological, philosophical and spiritual interpretations of his or her traumatic experiences are critical, often overlooked parts of the recovery process.

This is a hard one. I don’t really understand what it means. What is the difference between compassion and empathy?  Is this the same as Radical Acceptance? I know am very self-critical. Up to the point where it can freeze me into inactivity. This can then easily become a downward spiral. I haven’t figured out how to recognize, let alone correct this yet.

Thank you for this Harri, you do make us think! 

Libra.

[Libra]

Hi again,

This resiliency thread has set me thinking …

I had some long talks/discussions with DH over the weekend. At some point I stated that we copy what we see as a child, because that’s our reality, that’s what feels normal. This met with serious opposition from DH.

Some background is required here:
DH was beaten as a child. I knew this, but I was still shocked to get some inkling of the extent. His father was a frustrated, authoritarian bully who knew where to hit and how far he could go. The abuse lessened as DH got older. By the time I met my FIL, he was still authoritarian, but his new partner had mellowed him down considerably. His background and character was so different from my own parents, that I somehow managed to stand my ground towards him, and we always got along quite well.

Getting back to that opposition now:
DH says he knew from a considerably young age that what his father was doing (the beatings, as well as the general way he treated his wife) was NOT right. He decided from a young age that – if he ever had a family – he would do it all utterly different. And he has, for which I admire him greatly.
He has also always managed to have a good relationship with his father. Somehow, he accepted that this was part of their common past, and they maintained a close bond, right up till the end. Many things were left unspoken, true. But they respected and valued each other.

So…going back to the following statement:

Resilience is not a trait that people either have or do not have. It involves behaviors, thoughts and actions that can be learned and developed in anyone. [Taken from the American Psychological Association https://tinyurl.com/ydfvzm2 ]

What fundamental difference is/was there between myself and DH? Why was he able to clearly differentiate himself and to keep his own voice, whereas mine was drowned out for so many years? As much as I admire DH for his resiliency and steadfastness, it does make me question myself: why was I so much weaker?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts,

Libra.

[Panda39]

Hi Libra,

To me your experience and your husbands are apples and oranges. 

Someone once posted an article here about abuse and guilt. (I'm completely paraphrasing and generalizing here) Children of Narcissists don't have guilt involved, Children of Alcoholics don't have guilt involved, but the difference with BPD was the high level of guilt used on the children, keeping them attached, keeping them as an extension of the BPD person, to me, the abuse by someone with BPD is so much more subtle that it is much harder to see than blatant physical abuse.

Your husband had blatant abuse in his face, obvious abuse that he most likely didn't see happening in the world around him so it was easier to see that it was wrong.

The more subtle abuse of a BPD abuser and the conditioning you likely received that probably normalized those off behaviors make it immensely more difficult to see let alone to respond to.

Panda39

[Harri]

hi L2T.  Thank you for highlighting how beneficial it is to be in a group like this.  I am glad that sharing my story has helped you form a bond   Seeing parallels and common themes is a way to relate and open up to each other.  Changing perspective is so vital too.  Just the slightest shift makes a difference.

I fiercely stand up for my truth now. I am more skilled in choosing who I can safely share with.

I understanding that drive to defend your truth and that feeling of having to do so.  Have you found that as you heal you become more confident in yourself and that drive to fiercely defend your truth has been reigned in a bit?  Or is that not an issue? 

However, this last summer I suffered several emotional flashbacks from a few (relatively benign) work situations that were pretty overwhelming.

It is hard when our pasts creep in and color present day interactions.  Were you able to use any of the tools here to help you through?  How did you handle these situations once you realized they were triggering you?

Thanks for the great input L2T!  Part of being resilient is learning how to manage our past when they creep into the present so I think, as difficult as the flashbacks may be, it is all good and leads to even more healing.  Good work!   

[Libra]

Panda39,

I can see what you mean. It's true that the blatantly obvious abuse is easier to distance yourself from than the more subtle emotional abuse. Thank you for putting that in perspective. It's hard to discern the differences sometimes when it's right in front of your nose.

It is, however, also a known fact that domestic violence is often passed on from generation to generation.
My H defends his own fathers actions by saying that's just the way he was raised.
So what then is the difference between DH and his father?
Why is it that one child consciously chooses to do differently, where another will perpetuate the abuse?
Is this resiliency, character, something else?

Going too much off topic here, I know... .but I still wonder... .

Libra.

[Panda39]

I don't think this is so off topic... .the question is why are some people able to end the abuse/dysfunction and others continue to perpetuate the abuse/dysfunction?

I think there are as many reasons your FIL and DH handled the challenge of physical abuse in different ways, as there are differences between them.  The time period in which they were raised, maybe where they were raised, their own temperaments/personalities, their mothers, how well their mom's took care of themselves when they were pregnant, what there infancy was like, the other people in their lives and their interactions with them... .positive vs negative... .the list can go on and on.

I also had another thought too. 

I don't have a BPDmom but do have a critical mom and for a long time before and after my teen years I tried to please her, to be perfect, to make her happy, proud of me, love me.  But during my teen years I rebelled... .The subconscious thought was probably something like if you think I'm so stupid, so horrible, such a bad child then fine I'd act that way. So for 2-3 years I was a hot mess and sort of gave up the fight to win my mom over, gave up fighting her opinion of me and gave up on myself esteem... .maybe your FIL just gave into it, he internalized the negative messaging and became the negative message and acted in the way he was taught and maybe your DH didn't, maybe he had better self esteem or a better sense of right and wrong.

I'm rambling... .thinking out loud.

Maybe it's simply a choice, my son has an alcoholic dad he is 25 has never had any alcohol and may not ever.  He saw how alcohol affected this dad's behaviors, his dad's life, how it affected our marriage and led to divorce, how it lost his dad his job, his retirement, his driver's license... .he watched his dad hit rock bottom. He chose not to take that path.  He chose not to mirror his father's behaviors because of all the negative consequences.

I'm not sure I'm making any sense... .this is just a train of thought, I'm curious what other's think or if anyone has had a discussion with a Therapist about the reasons one person perpetuates abuse and one person is able to end it.

Maybe your husband has mastered more of the 7 items listed than his father did.

Panda39

[Libra]

I don't know enough of my FILs childhood environment to try to understand how that may have impacted his future behavior.
There was a WW of course, and famine and poverty. Many lived through that however, and many different paths were chosen afterwards.

I do think choice has something to do with it, but I suspect there’s more to it than that.
If your wife begs you to stop hitting your son, and the answer is ‘Don’t worry, I know where to hit so it won’t show’, then you KNOW what you’re doing is not acceptable.

One other difference between myself and DHs’ story though is that my childhood was very isolated, whereas DH has a large, healthy extended family. I myself have learned a lot about healthy family dynamics thanks to this extended family. As a kid, DH often stayed over at aunts & uncles with similar-age kids. His grandfather died early, but his paternal grandmother had a very good and strong influence on him as a child as well (which is confusing, because she did not have that influence on her oldest son). So yes, he had the opportunity to see how different family units worked. That may be a strong factor in being able to distance yourself from dysfunctionality and choose another path for yourself.

I too am curious what others think.
I know that many members here have consciously decided to do things differently than their parents. I admire their strength and determination. And I wonder what gave them the insight to distance and redefine themselves.

Thank you for thinking out loud Panda39, your Panda-sense helps me look at things from different angles.

Libra.

[Learning2Thrive]

... .
I understanding that drive to defend your truth and that feeling of having to do so.  Have you found that as you heal you become more confident in yourself and that drive to fiercely defend your truth has been reigned in a bit?  Or is that not an issue?  

The stronger, more confident and accepting of myself that I am, the less fiercely I feel compelled to defend.

JADE rarely works well for me as I can escalate when pressed by jerks  (the “Oh, HELL no attitude.”). It’s difficult not to JADE when the conversation is with someone that matters to me.

But, I am practicing. I would say little by little I’m noticing that offering respectful, awkward pause (silence) in place of JADE generally works quite well for in-person conversations/confrontations.

It is hard when our pasts creep in and color present day interactions.  Were you able to use any of the tools here to help you through?  How did you handle these situations once you realized they were triggering you?

Yes, the tools were very helpful. Some of the things I did incuded: Slowing down. Not reacting immediately. Noticing my emotions and what it reminded me of. Feeling the old stuff. Writing down the new stuff. Documenting appropriately. Taking time to consider a response instead of a “reaction.” Provided documented reports to upper management.

Thanks again, Harri.  

L2T

[Learning2Thrive]

4. Responsibility - this one is really hard for me, but maybe not in the way most people would think. You see, I learned at an extremely young age that in order to change a situation I had to be responsible for it. So I took responsibility for SO MANY THINGS that were never my responsibility to begin with. Things like figuring out middle of the night escape routes for younger siblings and myself when my parents fights turned violent (starting around age 8 or 9, if I recall correctly), buying food and clothes for myself and siblings (starting around age 11), trying to make sure none of the kids triggered mother. Accepting blame for her losses, shortcomings and flat out failures so she could feel better about herself.

My default mode is “responsible” whether I should be or not. Learning how to stay on my side of the road and only accept responsibility for my own issues, shortcomings and obligations has been one of the most difficult concepts to master.

I still bobble with only accepting responsibility for only that which is mine. And then end up JADEing myself to myself.  

Progress... .baby steps.

L2T

[Harri]

I can leave her feelings with her. I am a separate person now.

That is so important.  I think several of us still struggle with this part I know I do though it is getting easier and easier to peel away the layers of abuse and deception.

I no longer feel I have to fix everything for my mother.

Yes.  Separating, or differentiating from our abusers is so important.  What helps me in addition to just working on me, is thinking about this 'helping/fixing behavior' as a means of control for me.  If I can help or fix then I do not need to feel the anxiety or guilt, neither of which are healthy, but are really about me and my issues.  I imagine it as me violating another persons boundaries when I try to step in and help/fix (control... .for me anyway).  I have no business there and I have no right to take away the other person right to make their own choices.  I can still remove myself though.

It took great emotional input and upheaval to start believing in myself. This clearly had to happen outside of the primary family environment (because that environment is so ‘tainted' with expectations, tradition, etc.). My FIL was no angel, but he always treated me with respect, boundaries and - at the end – unspoken gratefulness. This gave me a new belief in myself.

I would add that it also took a willingness to look within and accept responsibility for your own healing on top of having positive influences in your life.  Yes, being able to see through the damaged lenses you had and learn to accept what was offered to you without reacting or pushing it away in fear is vital to developing resiliency and healing. 

I found it so hard to work on myself while still living with my family.  It was impossible to see beyond all the dysfunction and not blame myself and take on too much responsibility (which is also as dysfunctional as taking on no responsibility IMO).

Empathy is the ability to see the damage done and understand the emotions of the victim... .this means being able to see this in us.  Your question about the difference between compassion and empathy is an excellent one, as is looking at how it plays into radical acceptance.  I do not know all the answers, but I would like to explore this with you, perhaps in another thread.  I say another thread because I think it is a very important discussion worthy of its own place on the board.  Go for it!   

I am always happy to talk about this stuff, though I do not have the answers.  I like thinking about all this and getting different perspectives so thanks for joining in!

[Harri]

Libra, what you say about your husband knowing that being beaten by his father was not healthy and knowing not to copy his behavior fits very well into this discussion as Panda said. 

Why is it that one child consciously chooses to do differently, where another will perpetuate the abuse?  Is this resiliency, character, something else?

Yes.    A lot of factors play into a persons resiliency including socio-economic factors, personality characteristics, family structure, outside influences, etc.

Psychological and social aspects of resilience: a synthesis of risks and resources
Table II.

Negative environmental factors for resilience: risk factors for psychosocial problems.
Poor pre-, peri-, and post-natal care of mother and child   Highly implicated in cognitive, behavioral, or emotional dysfunction
Abject poverty   Adds deprivation and stress on farmilies, making coping more difficult, and diminishing opportunities for personal growth
Abuse/neglect/molestation   Remarkably associated with difficult development, and later manifestation of symptoms
Family dysfunction/discord/upheaval   Imposes an environment of chaos and instability on children who benefit most from stability predictability, and nurturance
Parental psychopathology   If untreated or managed, has been shown to affect offspring in two ways either by genetic vulnerability, or by adding to the chaos and turmoil (above)
Inadequate/poor schools   School is one of the most vital preventative and rehabilitative allies we have in our struggle against the loss of children in society. Schools can often make up for the psychosocial deficits elsewhere in a child's life
Lark of significant nurturing adults   Perhaps the most salient, crucial loss of all the necessary ingredients in the life of a child
Absence of mentors and models   Related to the above, but is often adjunctive or can even serve as a surrogate or replacement, especially for older youth
War/culture of violence and chaos   Need not be graced by descriptions of egregious harm
Forces majeures (natural disasters)   Can destroy families, inflict brutalizing injuries and losses, and remove any semblance of stability

Remember, having one loving, stable parent or influencing adult who can validate and give unconditional love can make a huge difference. 

Have you ever taken the ACE 'test' I referenced above? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280739.0  see how you do and see how your resiliency score is.

[Harri]

L2T:  Okay, I'm not laughing at you but this made me laugh:  

And then end up JADEing myself to myself.

Yep, same here... .and I can do the karpman drama triangle solo too... .it is quite the sight.

Responsibility is tricky.  I think in terms of resiliency it is important that we accept responsibility for our own behaviors and reactions and taking steps to change what needs to be changed within ourselves.  Owning our reactions, being able to say our behaviors begin and start with us now that we are adults regardless of what may have happened in the past.  all of this is enough to deal with so lets put down the task of trying to be responsible for others as you say L2T.

Good thoughts.

[Libra]

Quote
I can leave her feelings with her. I am a separate person now.
That is so important.  I think several of us still struggle with this part I know I do though it is getting easier and easier to peel away the layers of abuse and deception.

Side note here: I can do this, but I have to actively work it. It does not (yet) come naturally. I suspect I actually have more trouble doing this with others at the moment than with my mother, because I know I have to really watch that with her. Doing this with my children, for example, is a lot more difficult. 

What helps me in addition to just working on me, is thinking about this 'helping/fixing behavior' as a means of control for me.  If I can help or fix then I do not need to feel the anxiety or guilt, neither of which are healthy, but are really about me and my issues.  I imagine it as me violating another persons boundaries when I try to step in and help/fix (control... .for me anyway).  I have no business there and I have no right to take away the other person right to make their own choices.  I can still remove myself though.

I can’t help thinking that you are being very stern on yourself here, Harri.   
Those feelings of anxiety and guilt should not have been placed on you in the past.
Yes, they are your issues. I understand you wanting to control anxiety and guilt by stepping in to help/fix. I completely get your logic of not wanting to violate the others’ boundaries.
I think people with healthy boundaries though, will often not even let you get that far. They will draw their line and you will not be violating their boundaries. My H is VERY good at this, and I had a hard time learning to cope with it, because it felt like rejection. I was not used to not being needed.
Removing yourself, is all too self-punishing IMO. It is taking on the responsibility of the other persons’ feelings or reactions. The base assumption should be that the other person has healthy boundaries they can communicate, and they will not feel controlled/offended with your reflex of trying to fix or help.
If I have misinterpreted, I apologize.   

Yes, being able to see through the damaged lenses you had and learn to accept what was offered to you without reacting or pushing it away in fear is vital to developing resiliency and healing.

Well said. I had not looked at it from that angle: our own perception of self is so askew that we need to learn to accept other, healthier views of ourselves from others. It’s very true: I still don’t know how to react to – or rather accept - the simplest of compliments. There’s a tiny voice in the back of my mind that will always find a ‘reason’ for the compliment.

I found it so hard to work on myself while still living with my family.  It was impossible to see beyond all the dysfunction and not blame myself and take on too much responsibility (which is also as dysfunctional as taking on no responsibility IMO).

I did not manage to work on anything while still living with my FOO either. I was too enmeshed and guilt ridden.
Maybe taking on too much responsibility is due to the inability to differentiate? I agree it is just as dysfunctional as taking no responsibility/avoidance.

Thank you for sharing your brain waves Harri 

Libra.