well, this is new

[Depression = 72% of members]

Well, wednesday night was bad, I slept in the other room.  Thursday, she seemed in a better mood.  Then some bad news from the IRS.  I expected hell when I got home.  But, it was not hell.  She was talking about having people over for the weekend, doing things together, cooking.  I was quite surprised at the rapid change to a good and hopeful mood.

Then she was looking though her calendar, and pointed to next saturday, ans said that was the day she was ovulating... .

Keep in mind, we havent so much as kissed in a month and a half, she gets dressed behind closed doors, and just the night before she was talking about getting a divorce and how much I have ruined her life.

So, at first I ignored it.  Then 10 minutes later, she asked me what I thought.  I figured there's no way to properly answer that question that won't result in a major dysregulation, so I basically told her that I am ready to have a child, putting it back on her for her to tell me she is ready.  I was somewhat suspicious she was bringing this up so that I would react in a way that gives her a reason to rage at me.  And when I responded differently, I think it threw her off.  A few minutes later, she said that everyone is telling her not to have children.   

A few minutes after that, we went to bed.   And that's when the dysregulation began.  She asked why I would want to have children with her if I still thought she had been violent with me.   Then she denied hitting me and holding me down, saying "I was just sitting on you, I wasn't holding you down!"  She wanted me to admit that she never hit me or held me down, and that I only called police to control her.  I replied by saying that my memory is that I struggled to break free, and had a bruise the next day that lasted two weeks, and that my memories and recollections of that night were just as valid as hers.  Then she kicked me out of the bedroom.  I gladly slept in the other room.

This morning, I went to an alanon meeting.   She sent a text saying she doesn't want to do anything with me all weekend.  Okay.  I came home, was taking a nap in the other room, and she came in and told me she is going to go on a vacation by herself, or else she would wind up back in the hospital.  So, she booked a ticket with her frequent flyer miles plus credit card, and now she is gone for two weeks.

Interestingly, as i was taking her to the airport, she was crying, and basically saying that she didn't make me in debt, that she couldn't work, and is on disability for a reason.  Then she asked if I was wearing my wedding ring - I showed her that I was.  then she remarked how this is the first time in two years we have been apart.  And before she got on the plane, made a comment about how I am going to be glad to get rid of her, and I told her that I will actually miss her - and that is true.

Soo.  I see this as good.  Good to have the peace and quiet.  Good for her to do something on her own. 

I just find it strange that me telling her I was ready to have a child (a half truth - I feel like my end is ready) is what set her off.

[maxsterling]

Well, wednesday night was bad, I slept in the other room.  Thursday, she seemed in a better mood.  Then some bad news from the IRS.  I expected hell when I got home.  But, it was not hell.  She was talking about having people over for the weekend, doing things together, cooking.  I was quite surprised at the rapid change to a good and hopeful mood.

Then she was looking though her calendar, and pointed to next saturday, ans said that was the day she was ovulating... .

Keep in mind, we havent so much as kissed in a month and a half, she gets dressed behind closed doors, and just the night before she was talking about getting a divorce and how much I have ruined her life.

So, at first I ignored it.  Then 10 minutes later, she asked me what I thought.  I figured there's no way to properly answer that question that won't result in a major dysregulation, so I basically told her that I am ready to have a child, putting it back on her for her to tell me she is ready.  I was somewhat suspicious she was bringing this up so that I would react in a way that gives her a reason to rage at me.  And when I responded differently, I think it threw her off.  A few minutes later, she said that everyone is telling her not to have children.   

A few minutes after that, we went to bed.   And that's when the dysregulation began.  She asked why I would want to have children with her if I still thought she had been violent with me.   Then she denied hitting me and holding me down, saying "I was just sitting on you, I wasn't holding you down!"  She wanted me to admit that she never hit me or held me down, and that I only called police to control her.  I replied by saying that my memory is that I struggled to break free, and had a bruise the next day that lasted two weeks, and that my memories and recollections of that night were just as valid as hers.  Then she kicked me out of the bedroom.  I gladly slept in the other room.

This morning, I went to an alanon meeting.   She sent a text saying she doesn't want to do anything with me all weekend.  Okay.  I came home, was taking a nap in the other room, and she came in and told me she is going to go on a vacation by herself, or else she would wind up back in the hospital.  So, she booked a ticket with her frequent flyer miles plus credit card, and now she is gone for two weeks.

Interestingly, as i was taking her to the airport, she was crying, and basically saying that she didn't make me in debt, that she couldn't work, and is on disability for a reason.  Then she asked if I was wearing my wedding ring - I showed her that I was.  then she remarked how this is the first time in two years we have been apart.  And before she got on the plane, made a comment about how I am going to be glad to get rid of her, and I told her that I will actually miss her - and that is true.

Soo.  I see this as good.  Good to have the peace and quiet.  Good for her to do something on her own. 

I just find it strange that me telling her I was ready to have a child (a half truth - I feel like my end is ready) is what set her off.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Does she still have a job?  How can she just take off for two weeks vacation?

Interesting twist... .

FF

[maxsterling]

Does she still have a job?  How can she just take off for two weeks vacation?

Interesting twist... .

FF

It's a teaching job, and doesn't start for another month.

[formflier]

 

So... .what did you "tell" her with your actions and words... .

When she asked about what you thought about the baby... .I took that as a respectful question asked respectfully (properly... .)... .you gave it some thought and gave her your answer.

Do I have this part right?

Then... .it seems she started to dysreg... .and started asking... demanding... or talking about ridiculous things (in a disrespectful manner)

I'm curious how you figured out when to speak to her... and when to leave the room?  

Why not just get up and leave... .or get up... state a boundary... .give her a choice... .then stay or leave... .

Or just state boundary and leave...

What are you planning on doing while she is gone?

FF

[formflier]

Does she still have a job?  How can she just take off for two weeks vacation?

Interesting twist... .

FF

It's a teaching job, and doesn't start for another month.

OK... .my bad.  I had gotten the impression she had started working some or doing things over there.

FF

[maxsterling]

FF - I viewed the question regarding the baby as one of those trap questions.  The underlying reason is not that she wanted the answer to the question. Rather it is like "Max is painted black right now, totally evil ass, but I am not feeling it right now.  I need to throw him an impossible question to prove what a ass he is."  I think we have all experienced those, where things seemingly are going well, and then the curve ball that has no possible way of answering satisfactorily. 

As soon as she asked the question, I knew what it was.  She wanted me to respond about how things are too unstable right now, so she can twist that as me blaming her, and therefore solidify that it is me that is preventing her from getting what she wants in life.  After all, I have always balked at that question before, and always leads to dysregulation.

Since I knew I was facing a melt down anyway, I responded in a way that says I am ready, which then challenges her.  And she fell apart, as I expected.

As for what I am going to do with myself - heal.  Try to regain some weight, hang out with friends, hobbies, enjoy peace and quiet.

[an0ught]

Hi maxsterling,

good for you that you are able and confident enough to adapt your approach. When we become too rigid, too predictable we become easy to game. You refused to give her the relief of a known and reassuring fight and face her with a real question with potential consequences of course she melted down. Too much. In some way - provided it is financial feasible - it is really the best solution she is going away for two weeks. She needs a break from home and from you - not that anything is wrong with home or you.

Take good care of yourself, 

a0

[formflier]

You refused to give her the relief of a known and reassuring fight and face her with a real question with potential consequences of course she melted down. 

Exactly!

This is a go to issue... .so keep thinking about how you can give truthful answers... .but not become predictable.

How do you think you will answer it next time?

FF

[babyducks]

As for what I am going to do with myself - heal.  Try to regain some weight, hang out with friends, hobbies, enjoy peace and quiet.

You Go Max. 

[Sunfl0wer]

So do you think she used the good ole easy, "baby card" fight just to start a fight on purpose because... .

She had plans to leave, felt slightly guilty for leaving, therefore wanted a fight so she could make the fight the reason of her unplanned trip?  Pretending it was just last min/impulsive decision based on your unreasonableness, your fault?  Hence... .no need to her to stick around during ovulation week as you won't procreate with her anyway. (Therefore justified in leaving you. So she cannot find herself guilty of any wrongdoing, provide sufficient fight/distraction over the idea that she, as a wife who can just up/leave, come/go as she pleases)

It sounds to me that she couldn't justify her behavior with your bad behavior, and paint herself a victim of you, therefore she went to her plan B... .

She painted herself a victim of her disorder instead, with statements that she would be in hospital otherwise, & she gets disability for a reason.

These were just my immediate thoughts.  Likely though, much focus on her and her intentions can be a bit of a distraction from things and not as helpful?

I like how FF thinks and analyzes/places importance less on her behavior, refocusing on you and your experience and response to her.

So... .what did you "tell" her with your actions and words... .

When she asked about what you thought about the baby... .I took that as a respectful question asked respectfully (properly... .)... .you gave it some thought and gave her your answer.

Do I have this part right?

Then... .it seems she started to dysreg... .and started asking... demanding... or talking about ridiculous things (in a disrespectful manner)

I'm curious how you figured out when to speak to her... and when to leave the room? 

Why not just get up and leave... .or get up... state a boundary... .give her a choice... .then stay or leave... .

Or just state boundary and leave...

What are you planning on doing while she is gone?

FF

I see how important it is to unFOG by simply caring for myself.  This is often easier seen in another persons experience vs in my own.  Easier for me to maintain my focus on another vs self caring behaviors.  I appreciate reading the interactions to sort this out for myself.

So what will you do while she is gone?

How do you decide when to remain in one conversation vs another?



 

[babyducks]

It sounds to me that she couldn't justify her behavior with your bad behavior, and paint herself a victim of you, therefore she went to her plan B... .

She painted herself a victim of her disorder instead, with statements that she would be in hospital otherwise, & she gets disability for a reason.

I think Sunfl0wer nailed that one. 

[patientandclear]

Do you want to have a baby with her?

[Cat Familiar]

Do you want to have a baby with her?

What concerns me with your reply about your readiness to have a child (and you do call it a "half truth" is that you are admittedly being somewhat dishonest with her. It seems that pwBPD are really good at picking up cues when their partners are lying to them. Having such an unstable grasp of reality along with sensing dishonesty can undermine their already fragile grasp on reality.

Just a cautionary note, Max. I think you're doing well at being true to yourself otherwise.

[formflier]

What concerns me with your reply about your readiness to have a child (and you do call it a "half truth" is that you are admittedly being somewhat dishonest with her. 

On the one hand... .words matter.  On the other hand... .pwBPD hear what they want to anyway... .

So... if Max is saying that he feels ready to have a baby... .I believe that is a full truth from him.

If he says to her that he is ready to have a baby with her... right now... in her current condition... .I would start to wonder if it is a half truth.

The key is the follow up conversations.

Max:  I'm ready to have a baby

her:  The doctors don't think I should

Max:  Let's schedule time with the doctors to discuss your readiness (max con put this in his own words)

The key here is Max should stay away from saying that he doesn't think she should have a baby right now.  He should point her to her health team... .and then offer appropriate support.

FF

[sweetheart]

Do you want to have a baby with her?

What concerns me with your reply about your readiness to have a child (and you do call it a "half truth" is that you are admittedly being somewhat dishonest with her. It seems that pwBPD are really good at picking up cues when their partners are lying to them. Having such an unstable grasp of reality along with sensing dishonesty can undermine their already fragile grasp on reality.

Just a cautionary note, Max. I think you're doing well at being true to yourself otherwise.

I too think the answer you gave your wife about being ready to have a baby is misleading, and I also believe that this kind of response invalidates your wife in a number of ways, BPD aside. In the same way I believe accompanying your w to appointments re getting pregnant when your main objective is just to appease her. ( this is the reason you gave for doing it )

Is sleeping in a locked room separate from your wife a real indication of readiness to have a baby ?

Do you believe your wife thought you were being honest with her, given your current situation?

I think your w made a really positive decision to take some 'time out'; it strikes me that maybe she is more aware than you realise that sometimes what you say isn't always what you really mean.

[Sunfl0wer]

So, at first I ignored it.  Then 10 minutes later, she asked me what I thought.  I figured there's no way to properly answer that question that won't result in a major dysregulation, so I basically told her that I am ready to have a child, putting it back on her for her to tell me she is ready.  I was somewhat suspicious she was bringing this up so that I would react in a way that gives her a reason to rage at me.  And when I responded differently, I think it threw her off.  A few minutes later, she said that everyone is telling her not to have children.   

What it sounds like to me, is that whether you want a child right now is an irrelevant concept in this moment. You felt that you were able to clearly identify a dysfunctional tactic that she was luring you into.  You decided to not even validate her villain searching quest with a realistic answer.

So you decided to give a "partial truth" or whatever you want to call it, so as to prevent the "switch of escalation/dysregulation/attack Max" from being fully engaged in a launch sequence.

So some may say this is a lie, and of moral issue for you to consider.  I'm sure we all have our own moral ideas that differ greatly from one another.

FWIW, I will share mine:  In the case of anticipated abuse, for me, it is acceptable to omit the truth, divert the truth, and even blatantly lie.  I find this acceptable if someone wants to harm my child, or myself, or anyone for that matter.

I feel that if someone is literally luring me down a dark hallway, or a metaphorical luring me down a dark hallway of verbal lures to then verbally attack and belittle me... .that is quite acceptable for me to lie as a means of protection.

Max, I see that you saw where she was trying to lure you... .then you threw her off course... .A cleaver means by you of self protection in this situation.

(However, I would caution and question anyone who knowingly continues to risk their safety and alter their original values repeatedly and just lives looking for cleaver means for safety... .as this is a plan that is counterproductive as a long term solution for stability and emotional safety.  However, I do not see it this way in your case Max.  I see it as you just grasping to try something different... .seeing the position you were being thrown into... .and looking for a means to prevent what you anticipated as inevitable.)

It seems most challenging to have or ponder a long term solution when immersed in a situation that is off balance at the very primitive need level of: feeling safe

[patientandclear]

Telling someone you're ready to have a child with them feels to me like a pretty sacred commitment, or offer.  If that person then turns around and says, OK, let's go about that right now, I am SO grateful you accept me as I am and are willing to manifest that by co-creating another person with me and accepting me as that person's other parent ... .what are you going to do?  If you don't really mean it?

In my view, there are some things you just can't use as a safety or placating strategy.  It's a too-profound betrayal of yourself and the other person. If, to feel safe and buy peace, you have to offer to procreate when you don't want to or don't feel ready to, other options need to be on the table.

[Cat Familiar]

Telling someone you're ready to have a child with them feels to me like a pretty sacred commitment, or offer.  If that person then turns around and says, OK, let's go about that right now, I am SO grateful you accept me as I am and are willing to manifest that by co-creating another person with me and accepting me as that person's other parent ... .what are you going to do?  If you don't really mean it?

In my view, there are some things you just can't use as a safety or placating strategy.  It's a too-profound betrayal of yourself and the other person. If, to feel safe and buy peace, you have to offer to procreate when you don't want to or don't feel ready to, other options need to be on the table.

Well said, patient and clear! 

[Cat Familiar]

So you decided to give a "partial truth" or whatever you want to call it, so as to prevent the "switch of escalation/dysregulation/attack Max" from being fully engaged in a launch sequence.

So some may say this is a lie, and of moral issue for you to consider.  I'm sure we all have our own moral ideas that differ greatly from one another.

FWIW, I will share mine:  In the case of anticipated abuse, for me, it is acceptable to omit the truth, divert the truth, and even blatantly lie.  I find this acceptable if someone wants to harm my child, or myself, or anyone for that matter.

I feel that if someone is literally luring me down a dark hallway, or a metaphorical luring me down a dark hallway of verbal lures to then verbally attack and belittle me... .that is quite acceptable for me to lie as a means of protection.

Max, I see that you saw where she was trying to lure you... .then you threw her off course... .A cleaver means by you of self protection in this situation.

(However, I would caution and question anyone who knowingly continues to risk their safety and alter their original values repeatedly and just lives looking for cleaver means for safety... .as this is a plan that is counterproductive as a long term solution for stability and emotional safety.  However, I do not see it this way in your case Max.  I see it as you just grasping to try something different... .seeing the position you were being thrown into... .and looking for a means to prevent what you anticipated as inevitable.)

It seems most challenging to have or ponder a long term solution when immersed in a situation that is off balance at the very primitive need level of: feeling safe

I understand what you mean about warding off danger, Sunfl0wer, but lying (or partially lying) about this fraught topic seems like a downright betrayal. And she can return from her vacation with plans to create a baby next cycle.

PwBPD have such profound issues with betrayal and lack of trust, I would think lying is only advisable to save one's skin, not to avoid a dysregulation.

[Cat Familiar]

I too think the answer you gave your wife about being ready to have a baby is misleading, and I also believe that this kind of response invalidates your wife in a number of ways, BPD aside. In the same way I believe accompanying your w to appointments re getting pregnant when your main objective is just to appease her. ( this is the reason you gave for doing it )

Is sleeping in a locked room separate from your wife a real indication of readiness to have a baby ?

Do you believe your wife thought you were being honest with her, given your current situation?

I think your w made a really positive decision to take some 'time out'; it strikes me that maybe she is more aware than you realise that sometimes what you say isn't always what you really mean.

I agree, sweetheart. I would be downright pissed if I discovered my partner was appeasing me about something as important to me as this is to your wife, Max.

[Sunfl0wer]

The context and reality of Max's daily living situation is one of constant, regular fear, of imminent danger, fears for his safety... .both on and emotional level and on a physical level. He hides behind a locked door from a woman who admittingly cannot control herself and also she has professed she would like there to be no consequences or responsibility for her behavior or her feelings.

She attempts to brainwash him into thinking that her behavior is not so bad, with the logic that otherwise he would have left already.

She has pounced at him in his sleep without warning... .and assaulted him... .left bruises on him that take over a week to heal.

She is not concerned about his safety.

She is more concerned about him calling the police on her than his sense of security.

Statistically speaking... .  The prognosis for a situation such as this is that things will continue to escalate.  Abused persons are at highest safety risk when the partner suspects they may try to escape the situation.  (Recent OOP)

I appreciate that the nature of these boards allows us to hear many views to consider them.

My opinion is that Max needs to first gain his own security and safety... .like in Maslow's hierarchy... .before he can worry about r/s things such as conceiving.

He is currently living in a situation that WILL not sustain itself.  Something will have to happen for something to change. 

[Verbena]

Sunflow0er's analysis of Max's situation is the most succint that I have read to date. 

[OffRoad]

How about we start with the theory that Max's wife doesn't really want a baby right now? She knows that is a bad idea or she knows it will get a certain reaction out of Max. And that she uses that as a means to start a fight, as Max has discovered (because she didn't say "Oh, Goody. Let's start right now!" when Max said he was ready to have a child-people who really want children right then would do this).

When the argument happens the same way over and over again, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect a different result. Max pulled a game changer with a person who does not have the same emotional quotient that the "norms" of the world have. His saying he is ready to have a child (Although maybe not with her) is an opportunity for discussion. The fact that his W did not take that opportunity speaks volumes as to her actual desires. Max would not have discovered that if he had done the same thing as always by arguing her down or validating. Now he has more information. In his situation, this is extremely important for his decision making.

[Verbena]

Offroad, I agree that Max's wife's response to his saying that he was ready to have a baby was very telling.  I think she knows she has no business having a child, but her distorted thinking continues to make her keep bringing it up. 

This shouldn't even be a topic of conversation.  It's like having zero food in the house with zero money in the bank to buy any food but arguing over what color Cadillac you are going to get next week.  It makes no sense. 

[patientandclear]

I don't see how you can build anything worth having by injecting misleading statements about your wishes and desires about core issues like wanting to be a parent. When we also do things to erode trust, what's left?

This is not a game of strategy and wits. If it were, this was a clever judo move.  But what Max said can't possibly align with other things he's going to say and do for his own protection, and has recently been doing.

To SunFlower's point, I do understand that he's been abused including very recently. I lived through a similar physically and verbally abusive marriage and I know that one says what one need to to survive an assault. However, once one lets go of sincerity on these most fundamental points, there's no relationship left. One should then just be looking for an exit strategy.

Max said he was staying out of love, not fear. Because he wanted to give it one more try. Not because he couldn't figure out how to leave. Saying "i'm ready to have a child" when that is not true or not necessarily true is not a loving act.

[OffRoad]

If Max is trying to figure out where his wife is REALLY coming from when she says she wants a baby, but she is actually trying to start an argument, that WOULD be a loving act. It's not like you can ask that question of a pwBPD and get an honest answer, like you can with a non. Sometimes,  you have to come in from left field to help your spouse, yourself and your relationship. MOO.

From an outside view, maybe she doesn't want a child and is trying to see if Max would be disappointed if she didn't want any. Because pwBPD don't always say what they mean. Or maybe she just uses it to start an argument. Max has every right to try to figure that out for himself.

[sweetheart]

For me it is important to speak our truth, both for ourselves and for our SO, about our relationship and our core values.

Sometimes there are points in a relationship where honesty can be the salve a relationship needs in order to protect itself against continued conflict.

Sometimes there are key moments in our relationships where our SO's are able to hear our truth.

If there are mixed messages at the centre of a relationship that remain unspoken or spoken about in half truths, or lies  how does any relationship move forward ? How does it heal ?

[an0ught]

Good discussion and important topic. Where are the boundaries for our talk, our actions. What is ethical and what not. Is lying o.k.?

So, at first I ignored it.  Then 10 minutes later, she asked me what I thought.  I figured there's no way to properly answer that question that won't result in a major dysregulation, so I basically told her that I am ready to have a child, putting it back on her for her to tell me she is ready.  I was somewhat suspicious she was bringing this up so that I would react in a way that gives her a reason to rage at me.  And when I responded differently, I think it threw her off.  A few minutes later, she said that everyone is telling her not to have children.

In an enmeshed relationship everyone thinks for everyone. In some way that may be considered sweet. In a lot of ways broken. When faced with a question that affects both like getting a child one can answer it

 - I believe I am (not) ready

 - I believe we are (not) ready

We are often pushed into the adult position in the relationship. We still have some "executive mindset" and will say no to things we believe warrant it. It is a convenient setup where the pwBPD refuses to make decision nurturing the belief that this lets them off the hook with respect to consequences - or at least the potential feelings of guilt associated with them.

One could see negotiations as a game where two positions exist and then there is a decision if there is agreement and then immediate implementation. I believe when looking at negotiations and behavior within negotiations it is necessary not to look at a purely static picture. Negotiations are a dance. Every party starts at their starting position. Moves are made that explore the solution space. If I speak from the common ground position I am standing on the battleground. If I speak from my position we can find the common ground together. What is feasible? Where is the other true position to the extent it is shared? Is the other party acting in a way that I want to continue down this road? Do we truly have an agreement - a meeting of minds? What are the next steps? The game is a negotiation and is not a vote - a vote may conclude the negotiation.

Negotiations are games. Often we think let's just all put the facts on the table and then do a technocratic assessment and come to a conclusion. But we are humans, we have emotions and humans are not rationale actors. In our game we have at least one (often two) actors who are very emotional and usually one actor who is very aggressive pushing boundaries and often two actors who are weak at protecting boundaries. I strongly believe it is very important in such a situation to have some maneuvering space. Having some flexibility in our position - conditions that we may ask - conditions we may swallow - helps us exploring and often helps saving face / stepping over an important boundary on the other side / protecting an important boundary on our side. We don't want to start negotiations with our backs at the wall.

In the opening stage of a negotiation one states the main intent. If we seek a win-win of course lying is out of the question. But disclosing all details and all own conflicts of interest right in the opening sentence would confuse and just weaken the negotiation position. The intent here is to have a child. It has major implication for the couple but it has also major implication for each individual e.g. what if the partner dies can I imagine handling that? Each side needs to have an answer for themselves. Only when that condition is met it makes sense to talk about readiness together.

By making an assertive "I" statement maxsterling entered a serious discussion. A lot has been discussed about the exact words chosen. The most important word here for me is "I" and maxsterling's behavior. "I" is assertive and defines his position. His behavior was waiting i.e. not being reactive and then entering the discussion later with a clear position.  Both the "I" and the deliberate entering signaled he is quite serious. His seriousness forced her to scramble to an adult role and abandon her baiting. She was not ready for that discussion and it was overwhelming. Her doing a time-out now is a good thing.

It is obvious that in early stage of a negotiation not all has been disclosed. In later and late stages of negotiations it is then assumed that major caveats have been disclosed. Bringing new major conditions to the table would be considered unfair and may derail the talks. "I want a child" at the beginning means something different than "I want a child" at the end of negotiations. The former contains the potential for conditions and adjustments. The latter is an affirming statement in the closing.

Now is entering a negotiation ethical when you know the other side is not ready? Generally it should be avoided. But when the other side is playing games all the time in my eyes it is o.k. to say - let's get real and do a serious discussion here. You know the other side is not ready - or at least you strongly believe so. Still let's give it a shot and explore it - there is always a remote potential that our assumptions were wrong. In a serious negotiation the readiness of the other side and for a common ground will become obvious. If the other side was not ready their bluff is called. It is embarrassing. But saving our loved one from embarrassment brought on themselves can be also enabling.

[123Phoebe]

So, at first I ignored it.  Then 10 minutes later, she asked me what I thought.  I figured there's no way to properly answer that question that won't result in a major dysregulation, so I basically told her that I am ready to have a child, putting it back on her for her to tell me she is ready.  I was somewhat suspicious she was bringing this up so that I would react in a way that gives her a reason to rage at me.  And when I responded differently, I think it threw her off.  A few minutes later, she said that everyone is telling her not to have children.

By making an assertive "I" statement maxsterling entered a serious discussion. A lot has been discussed about the exact words chosen. The most important word here for me is "I" and maxsterling's behavior. "I" is assertive and defines his position. His behavior was waiting i.e. not being reactive and then entering the discussion later with a clear position.  Both the "I" and the deliberate entering signaled he is quite serious. His seriousness forced her to scramble to an adult role and abandon her baiting. She was not ready for that discussion and it was overwhelming. Her doing a time-out now is a good thing.

There's just something funky to me about asserting an "I" position of being ready to have a child.

How about asserting an "I" position of not being ready to have a child... ?   Would that have been coming from a truthful standpoint, more honest?  Nowhere in any of Max's threads have I gotten the impression that he's ready to have a child.

It doesn't sound like Max or his wife are seriously ready to bring a child into the world, but perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way.

Max, are you ready?

[patientandclear]

An0ught, you wrote that "the intent here is to have a child." I've never read Max to say his intent is to have a child with his wife. He's (thoughtfully, sensibly) had major reservations about that because she's been actively suicidal and frequently abusive.

My sense here is that her intent is unknown (perhaps to test Max's commitment and try to prevent him from being able to leave). Max's intent as recently articulated here is to stay if possible, out of love; to see if it's possible to be safe in this r/s.

I think in this context "I am ready to have a child" would be read by the partner 100% of the time as "with you, now." Walking that back later is almost inevitably going to feel like a profound breach of trust.

My ex recently made similar statements to me.  I'd explained I thought I wanted a committed monogamous r/ship with him.  He just put it out there that he'd be willing to promise me that to "keep" me from ending contact with him.  First time he'd ventured near that territory for 3 years.  It made a huge impact on me.  I started to hope and to believe.  Later, in the course of some very honest and good conversations, it turns out he himself didn't want a monogamous committed r/ship with me -- it was just a maneuver.  It was using my most tender, precious hopes to get what he wanted from me (and to get me to stop protecting myself in a way that was getting in the way of something he wanted).  It hurt like nothing I can remember, and I don't have BPD and the associated suspicion that people are going to get close to me only to hurt or use me.  I'd believed him, I'd started sorting through my own fears to try to figure out if I should make a leap of faith.  Possibly what Mrs. Max is doing right now.  Then the lovely thing he offered me turned out to be hollow.  You just can't "maneuver" with stuff like this, it's too fundamental.